Author Topic: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"  (Read 357758 times)

Offline educatedindian

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NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« on: July 05, 2007, 05:45:36 pm »
We began NAFPS in 2001 as a Yahoo club/group and went through a lot together, at least eight unsuccessful attempts to shut us down, empty threats of lawsuits, stalkers, identity thieves, libel campaigns, and even death threats. We have emerged from it all relatively unscathed and more determined than ever to continue our work.

When a spiritual exploiter insults us, attacks us, spreads rumors, issues empty threats of lawsuits, or goes to elaborate and ultimately useless efforts to go after us, we take it as a compliment.

We take it as a sign of success, a mark of how worried they are about the loss of their income, power, or standing because of their fraudulent or disprespectful actvity being exposed and criticized.

The more they squawk, the more they show themselves to be panicked or paranoid.

This thread will be a list of all the frauds, exploiters, and other dubious characters who have gone to the extra effort against us.

Each one should be listed on a separate post, with links back to where else they are listed on the site.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 05:54:18 pm »
In rough chronological order:

Betsy Ashby, owner of the Pagan Resource Center of Newport News, Virginia and a dedicated follower of Brooke Edwards AKA "Medicine Eagle". Most memorably, she once described how Edwards tricked a sheriff's deputy into shooting an unarmed AIM member when AIM protested one of her pay to pray ceremonies. She also sent me numerous emails arguing Natives had never gone through genocide. Other pagans from her area sent us notes of praise and describd her as an unrepentant racist, and that heavy handed tactics scared other local pagans into silence.

Ashby issued dozens of threats of lawsuits, none of which were ever carried out. In fact, her lawyer's tactics were so sleazy and unethical, he faced being disbarred and only avoided any action from his state bar by concealing his address.

More on Ashby


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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 02:20:55 pm »
I like what you said. I too say, "If I pissed them off and they attack me, I am happy because I am not here for a popularity contest and when I find out who are the fakes I will become your worst nightmare come true." I have discovered that they do become extremely paranoid and they are so good at twisting and throwing double standards around. If I hear one more time that these fakes are looking for love, peace, harmony and we are all one, I will have to be shackled down. LOL

I have only recently learned a lot of these groups and people and I feel like I am in a crash course.

Offline danielle

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 06:32:45 am »
Awesome feeling when you make those enemies. Tragic they have to go that ther and be be among us but i do gotta admit getting a rush out of it.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 03:11:10 pm »
I've put together a compilation showing the history of some of the people who have tried to discredit what we do here.

NAFPS is made of of many different types of people who have many different reasons for being here. Some people come here to share accurate information and are truely dedicated to protecting both people and Native traditions from exploitation and abuse. Others come here to disagree with something that is said here, and a few seem to come here just to entertain themselves by role playing in cyberspace . Together we create many lively discussions and no matter who people are , I think everyone who participates here brings some good things to share. Even if it is just provokation which forces all of us to to think things through more deeply.

Some of these people go on to try and discredit what is done here.

We are an imperfect bunch and even the people who have honorable intentions occaisionally make mistakes and have blind spots . What really bothers me is when instead of confronting someone with a specific incident where there is a disagreement, some people go on to try and generally discredit everything that is done here - and in the process of discrediting the information provided by NAFPS these people often undermine respect for the protection of ceremonies and the many recognized Elders and Spiritual leaders. who have repeatedly expressed concerns over this 

I don't know what happened between NAFPS and Betsy Asby as I was not a member of NAFPS when this disagreement occured , so i don't know if betsy might have a valid complaint or not. I don't see anything on line anymore that links her to Brooke Medicine ego , but I see she continues to circulate stories which are obviously not likely to be true

I see she posts a lot on the "Issues Affecting Indians in Tennessee " message board, though I'm not sure what her intrest is, as she is non native.

The first post shows that the person posting as "Betsy" is "Betsy Ashby";article=15621;title=Issues%20Affecting

Little voices told me ;-) — Betsy, Thu Aug 10 12:07PM
(begins.... ) .My name is Betsy Ashby! If anyone else had the same name on the net, they've probably changed it by now

Here is one of the stories she is spreading to discredit NAFPS ;;article=16653;title=Issues

This one wanted a harem?
Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:03AM

The "EducatedNDN" running NAFPS claimed to be a "Mescalero Apache" and "a graduate student in American Indian history at Purdue University"

I found this OLD message, posted from his email address, in which he admits he is a mudblood, among other things LOL He wasn't happy and had this message deleted from its original site, but it is still available on the wayback machine.

San Antonio for now, DC and Conn in a while WEB URL: <> Carl & Sheryl E-MAIL:
-- 03/29/99 -- 15:34:13
Hello, We are a couple seeking to practice traditional American Indian polygamy, meaning a woman centered household. We both have a mix of Catholic and native beliefs. I am mixed blood, also Irish/Mexican, 33, 6'1", 190, quiet, gentle, well educated, grad student becoming a professor, thoughtful, loving, devoted to family and friends. My wife is 20, 5', 90, Asian, straight, silly and fun, very bright,speaks 4 languages, becoming a computer programmer. we seek a single lady who is loving, opne, nonjealous, good hearted, any racial or ethnic background. We are very accepting of all peoples and beliefs. Please consider joining our loving family.

The first thing to note is that this supposed personal was placed by someone named “Carl???- which is not the same as the name “Al “ or “Alton???.  Assuming this message exists, it seems peculilar that people would assume it was placed by someone named Al. But thats assuming it exists .  Betsy doesn't actually provide the URL ... Which makes me think maybe it doesn't.

Someone on Indianz got mad at Al after hearing this story, and Al explained where the story originated .
Edited to add
I see where in this thread at indianz Al also repeats some things he heard about Betsy , and as he gives no sources himself maybe Betsy has a reason to complain - about that specifically - but from what I see these allegations can be found on other websites and are not posted in NAFPS. 
As there is a few strange stories that got mentioned it's a bit unclear if this was started by Betsy Ashby or Tallsoldier77;
Al Carroll
Most of the lies you posted came from Ashby. That one particular one you just mentioned actually came from Tall "soldier".
Tallsoldier is one of the internet names of John Martin , who is a supporter of David Yeagley. Martin spreads lies about anyone who threatens to discredit Yeagley . His past behavior is shown in detail in the post below .

But Betsy apparently doesn't care about the source – ( or perhaps she is the source and that is why she neglects to include the URL to the archived webpage ) Instead she continues to spread this story and justifies this by claiming she has documentation;article=27961;title=Issues%20Affecting

Re: Who's got intel like that on you, anyway?
Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:16AM
As far as NAFPS goes, Al Carroll is as much of a Faux Indian as the rest of them. He DOES NOT research the people he profiles, he has publicly accused one person of what someone else with a similar name did, etc. etc. I've watched that man flat out lie and make stuff up about a person ...and yes, I can prove it. He's getting his own page too when the Mescalero Apache's reply to my snail mail. You know the "Spy vs Spy" cartoon? Well, I have half worked up a "Faux Indian vs. Faux Indian" site for Carroll....but unlike him, I am waiting for my documentation :-0
I do have the perv part of his page ready though ...wonder if he ever found that second female sexual partner he was advertising for on the net way back when he wasn't ashamed of being Mexican??

I'm not sure what are these people talking about? As Al has always said he is unenrolled I have to wonder what she expects to get back from the Mescalero Apaches. Confirmation that Al has always told the truth about this ?

Almost everything posted in NAFPS is sourced, and it is usually information found in webpages people put up about themselves . And Betsy is spreading this story about someone with a different name, to raise doubts about thes credibility of Al and the information posted in NAFPS, with no documentation at all , while at the same time claiming her research is better than what is found in NAFPS - because she supposedly waits to have documentation before spreading stories .

And Betsy expects people to believe she is more credible than NAFPS?

And then there is the racist and derogatory remarks calling Al a mud blood and suggesting being of indigenous descent from south of the border is something to be ashamed of . 

And where is their sources as Betsy makes these allegations? I see nothing at all.

Even if some people sometimes post stuff on this message board and they make a mistake or it is flat out not true, at least the moderators here make an effort to counter this. People posting untrue allegations is a problem on many message boards. It seems especially hypocritical to be making an issue of this problem like NAFPS has some horrible failing because of this , as this particular message board Betsy likes to post on has allowed people like  Robin, Joyce and John Martin to write many untrue allegations about NAFPS and Al. Most or all these allegations can easily be proven to be untrue and maliciously motivated ( see the information I've posted below )  but none of the moderators there stoped these people from posting these stories...

It seems Betsy thinks if someone posts something that isn't true on the NAFPS website , for some unexplained reason the moderators of NAFPS are responsible for that, but  the moderators of the website she posts in aren't responsible for the lies other people post ? That seems to be a peculiar double standard.

Betsy's criticism of NAFPS allowing posters to say things that may not be fair seems especially odd, as she apparently thinks allowing non native people to say they don't agree with something is just fine ..
 My Three Choices For Who's Who   Jan 17th. at 2:47:23 am EST

My second nominee would be Betsy Ashby. Not for the work she does keeping the Gathering of the Tribes in Virginia going, but for another reason that some people might find "negative". Betsy Ashby is the owner and founder of the Witch Wars yahoo group which is an unmoderated and uncensored mailing list of everything from high ideals and speculation to venomous attacks and airing of grievances for the larger pagan community. This underutilized forum could be the clearinghouse of issues and communities in seemingly unresolvable conflict. This service can be used as a place for people to air grievances, concerns or even bring both sides of conflict together for possible resolution, or merely for both sides to air their sides.

Seems like she thinks non native people should be able to say whatever they like, but native people should only be able to say whatever she likes...

So whatever it is about NAFPS that offends Betsy it doesn't seem to be what she says it is, as she finds the same thing and worse , perfectly acceptable if she is doing it or it's happening on another message board. Which makes it seem like it's actually something else that she doesn't like about NAFPS but for some reason she doesn't want to say what that is. When people act like that i always suspect it's because people know if they said their real reasons nobody would find these reasons honorable. So they make stuff up.

Betsy seems to have some affiliation with groups which are often associated with White Supremacists . Reportedly, one of the honored guests featured at an event Betsy helps organize is one of the leaders of a Northern European heritage group which has connections to some White supremacist groups.

These affiliations recently came up and got discussed in the thread below;;all

 Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 11:37:07 am »

Take your phony whites-only religion and shove off to Stormfront, where it appears people have heard of you
(this comment is explained in detail in Barnaby's following posts )

 Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 06:59:31 am » 
She's also scheduled to be the honored guest at a pagan "Gathering of Tribes" run by Betsy Ashby

The 2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes...
We are pleased to have as our SPECIAL GUESTS at the   
2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes!
Yngona Desmond

On the other hand Betsy sounds like she is doing some good things - at least on the surface it looks that way... She has put together her own version of an anti fraud website and Betsy says her aim is to discredit people making false claims to be Indian who are wrongly looking to take over Native identies and rights.

We contact Tribal Officials directly when checking out someone's public teaching credentials.  It's not difficult.  We fax the Tribe a copy of whatever the person is claiming and ask "Is this true?" Then we post the Tribal contact number so other reporters can do their own verifications. We're not talking rocket surgery here folks  ec

If anyone has a problem with the information we receive from a Tribe, they need to TAKE IT UP WITH THAT TRIBAL OFFICE!!
(continues ...)

If the person is in fact, an enrolled member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, we will say bold print.... and take down anything else about that individual.  What a member of a Treaty Tribe wants to do with their own culture is between them and their Tribe.  If someone doesn't like what a Federally Recognized Tribal member is doing...please go take it up with their Nation, not a bunch of white folk

I basicly agree with a lot of what she says on this subject, except there is a few problems.

First,  faux indians aren't really the problem - it is how these people behave that is the problem. While it might be practical to expose people you know in real life who are falsely claiming to be Indian - to try and do this on line is probably nothing more than an inflamatory make work project.

Anybody who reads message boards like will see that on line disputes about who is Indian and who is pretending can go on and on and on and on and on and on .....seemingly with nothing gained except a lot of bad feelings and resentment.

On line, it seems to make better sense to focus on peoples behavior rather than their identity .
While it sounds respectful to insist that it needs to be the tribes and only people from the tribe the exploiter is claiming - who decide who is an exploiter and who isn't, the idea that this needs to be done on a case by case basis ignores the fact that many tribes have already clearly made official statements defining what they consider exploitive behavior and that anyone engaging in that behavior is an exploiter and should be avoided. Ignoring these official statements that already exist, and expecting to rehash this in each individual situation , on a case by case basis is not respectful . Expecting this to be defined on a case by case basis would completely bog down the relatively straight forward process of identifying people engaged in these behaviorr as people to avoid.

The next problem is that Betsy , who is non native , is trying to set herself up as some kind of official middleman between the public and the tribes - but as has already been pointed out,  she has a nasty habit of saying stuff that isn't true if she personally doesn't like someone. So unfortunantly, there is no reason to trust anything she says, and such a person supposedly acting as a middleman is likely to confuse the issues and undermine respect for what tribes do in fact say, about what constitutes abuse , fraud and exploitation.

If people were to go about discrediting frauds in the way she is recommending as "ethical" it would men either taking her less than relaiable word for this, or it would mean nobody except the tribe could say a specific person was behaving in an unacceptable way, and EVERYBODY who wanted to know if someone was who they said they are and if what this person was doing was OK, would personally have to contact the tribe . Which would completely overwhelm the tribe with repeated inquireis about the same person.

I don't think this approach is practical, and advoctaing a solution to cultural protection that won't work , while spreading lies about the people using another approach that has a better chance of success, does undermine the ability of Native people to protect their culture.

If Betsy really cares about the issues she claims to, I have to wonder why she would behave in the way she does.

One reason Betsy may be lending her support is so she can have a hand in redefining the definitions of exploitation and abuse. Unfortunantely, I see this quite often and it is an old trick - ofering support to an indigenous nation which is being overwhelmed - but expecting concessions which compromise the integrity of the nation recieving this support, concession which often turn out to be the first step in the colonization process.;article=27987;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

Re: He'll pop in here soon...
Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:03PM

[edit] However, both NAFPS and the ShameOns regularly attack people for spouting some admittedly bizarre SPIRITUAL ideals.... which are matters of religious freedom and perception, not misrepresentation. No money or goods are changing hands, no 501 (c) (3) begging for funds, the person is not making any provably false claims of enrollment, or presenting any other bogus credentials, Indian or otherwise. They are honest about who they are and what they are doing... they just have some rather unique ideas regarding spirits, worship and creation.
[edit]If someone says they are channeling a space alien from the Pleides named Rodney who told them to worship the Great Turnip and dance naked around their barbecue grill chanting "Shis ka bob" ... we will defend to the death their right to do so long as they have a tall privacy fence. Who am I to say who is hearing whose little voice in their head?? :-/

Actually NAFPS doesn't try to discredit unusual beliefs. What NAFPS tries to discredit is people claiming their personal unusual beliefs are some sort of tribal traditional belief when they just made it up or imagined it.  NAFPS would only discredit the "religion" decribed above if the people were claiming it was Cherokee or Hopi or Lakota in it's origins. Betsy must know this but apparently she has some reason for wanting to make it sound like NAFPS just likes picking on people with unusual beliefs. It sounds like what Betsy is saying is that , if people don't claim to be enrolled and they aren't charging for the stuff they make up , she doesn't think anyone should be able to say what they are doing is not some tribal traditon as they are claiming and they just made it up. Even if that is the truth.

NAFPS and ShameOns also attack people who play mix and match the ceremonies from a variety of Traditions. For good or ill, this ALWAYS happens when different cultures intersect. [ edit ]it is NOT my job, or my right, to dictate someone else's Spiritual path matter how ridiculous and/or insulting I may perceive it to be. Whatever .. no victim, no crime.... Oh, and then there is that pesky little clause in the Bill of Rights ;-)

And so while she is willing discredit people wrongly claiming an Indian identity, she apparently will defend the right of non natives to help themself to Native traditions and ceremonies and does not see this as a crime, and she doesn't consider denying Native people the right to select their own leaders, and maintain and protect their own culture and traditions as they see fit , a creating victims of a crime.

I can see why some people feel this woman is a racist ...

(edited to add the additional information I mentioned i planed to add yesterday... )
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 03:24:16 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 03:30:48 pm »
A lot of this information on John Martin is rearranged / borrowed from something Al posted over at

 John Martin,  uses the nameTallsoldier77 , Lakota_Siouxperman , and registered in NAFPS as Steve_w.

John Martin is a supporter of David Yeagley, and Yeagley is a supporter of many groups which are opposed to the recognition of Native sovereignty.

Below are some examples of Yeagley's ideas 2/26/2002

By David Yeagley
"Superior beauty is in the white race, with its scintillating varieties of color: red, brown, amber, golden hair... green, blue, light brown, gray eyes. In the darker races, everything is always the same, dark brown and black a beastly bore."

"These days the white woman is expected to humble herself before the darkie

"But Hitler was wrong in Mein Kamf (1925), when he accuses the Jewish male of a racial plot. When "the black-haired Jewish youth" finds himself sexually attracted to the fair Aryan maiden, there is no "clear aim of ruining the hated white race" through intermarriage. The Jew himself would breed out, for he is a small minority.

But the masses of darker races don't fear extinction, because they are the vast majority. The white race is the world's minority.

Its Judeo-Christian religion allowed the European Caucasian race to advance above all other people; but the darker races now encroach through integration and intermarriage, in the name of equality and diversity.

Pat Buchanan says that there's something wrong with a race that doesn't care whether it exists or not. In his new book, The Death of The West, he refers to my article, "What's Up With White Women," in which I write about a white girl who has no pride in her race or its accomplishments.

There are dark people who look forward to the end of "whitey."
"Mixed raced people can't help what they are. Their's is no fault. But there is no need to repeat the same, or to advocate more, or to idolize such a condition by perpetuating it. When you realize you're on a wrong path, even if you didn't put yourself on it, the only dignified thing to do is to get back on the right path."

Yeagley also has a reputation supporting groups who oppose Indian sovereignty.

"I was invited to speak to leaders of Citizens Equal Rights Alliance, United Property Owners, Upstate Citizens for Equality,and One Nation. These organizations represent over a quarter of a million Americans citizens who have personally lost money,property, business, and basic civil rights as the result of aggressions by the Indian casino industry. (Not to mention the income counties and states lose to tax-exempt "Indian" casino business.)"

"It's their people that created America, not Indians. Only a diabolically self-righteous liberal politician would take America out of the hands that created it, and give it to those who either lost it, or never had anything to do with it."

David Yeagley
"As a Comanche Indian, I'm sensitive to this history. I believe the conqueror has a right to what he has conquered. No one owns the land. Only he who is strong enough to possess it will control it and the people living on it. That's the law of war."

Yeagley helped to make an offensive documentary about ndns .

There is information in NAFPS about this documentary in the link below;

There is more information on this documentary on a website maintained by Brent Micheal Davids

Quoting from the documentary

“When the warrior was finally defeated, he became the reservation Indian??? (leaning forehead toward camera for added emphasis).
“The, the loser. The alcoholic. The depressed, keep-away-from-me, leave-me-alone???

Quoting from the above documentary

“The idea that you can build a community with its own government, with its own economy, its own schools, its own language. That’s the idea that many Indian leaders are hoping for. They cut off themselves from participation, from successful positive participation in the world around them???

John Martin ( TS77 and LSM ) is a vocal supporter of Yeagley.;act=ST;f=53;t=6651;st=30

Posted: Nov. 26 2006

“All I am saying is that the self-proclaimed "Fraud-hunter" posts some of the most slanderous and blatant lies I have ever seen, since I joined this forum.

He calls Dr. Yeagley every name in the book. He says that is a neo-nazi/white supremacist stronghold, I have never seen any post here that supported or re-affirmed the white separatists movement.

I thought this site was primarily concerned with all issues Indian. The personal attacks aimed at Dr. Yeagley were unprovoked and instigated by this person, "Al Carrol", who is not even an Indian, he is Irish/Mexican, I reserve the right to refrain from calling him an Apache, because he has not proven that he is in fact even enrolled with a specific tribe.

I finally decided it was time to call this "Al Carrol" person on his accusations of stating that this site is run by white-supremacists. When I did, Carrol, a so-called "Phd", could only respond with more lies and slander and hate directed at me.

I for one, think the guy is a coward, he has done absolutely nothing but spread a hate filled racist ideology on other forums, particularly his own "NAFPS" web-site. Indians don't care about frauds/rip-offs, most of the Indians I know are too busy trying to survive and hold on to the traditions and customs and ceremonies that were passed down to them from their valiant ancestors.

If this "Al Carrol" person were really concerned about the welfare of the Indian community, he would be using his "Phd." to teach, to help others attain knowledge and through a positive academic enlightenment attain self-esteem and self-reliance. This is what is all about.???

Al started a thread called "A Way to Spread the Truth About Yeagley" on the Indianz,com message board. Here is some of TS77 response to this;

Posted - 11/19/2006

speaking to Al carroll in reference to David Yeagley

“Instead of posting useless, slanderous accusations about a man who could intellectually demolish you in a milli-second,???........

“I have the researched the misinformation you call fact, libel and lies, from a lying liar. ...???

Posted - 11/19/2006

“The links you provide are all out-dated, biased, and circumstantial, provide a real political periodical, that can show how Dr. Yeagley has been a detriment to the "plight" of the American Indian???

Posted - 02/15/2008

???I have visited and have not seen anything problematic or threatening to American Indians. Dr Yeagley is harmless. He has a right to voice his opinion just like that Irish hooligan Al Carroll. It's called the 1st Amendment.........???

“Then there is his obsession/stalking of this Dr Yeagley person. Dr Yeagley is a relatively benign proponent of Indian affairs, compared to Al, he is a saint. I read one of his articles and found nothing anti-Indian about it:???

Posted - 02/15/2008

“Why do you call Dr Yeagley's input on the History Channel garbage? Are you a Comanche historian?
“I think Dr Yeagley is harmless because instead of worrying about what he says in is blogs, you should be more concerned about real issues facing many tribes on the brink of cultural extinction. Dr Yeagley is a professional blogger. If you people stopped giving credence to what he writes then he would fade away into oblivion.

Now, the reason I don't like this Irish punk Carroll is because he began calling me a white supremacist. Unbelievable.???

In the link below is a screen shot where John Martin explains that he is out to discredit Al Carroll because he doesn't like what Al says about Yeagley

Apparently Yeagley was actively encouraging Martin

David Yeagley
June 4 , 2007
Tallsoldier I respect what you are doing. I trust you. Take a look at the sites, the "enemy" sites. See what they are doing. Carroll has already claimed Naiche as a friend, and welcomed him into the anti-Yeagley fold.

John Martin's strategies to undermine the information presented by Al Carroll and NAFPS mostly rely on outright lies, threats and sustained harassment.

John Martin harasses everyone who has blogs discrediting Yeagley.

Michel Shiningelk criticized Yeagley on her blog

And TS77 falsely accused her of being a [serious untrue allegation removed]. She has published screen shots of these accusations in her blog;

Friday, March 9, 2007

“What's more, the TS77 wants to cry and whine around like a little baby when he feels those he has attacked, attack him via his family -- talk about crying wolf and a tried and true bi-polar narcissistic hypocrite. When he posted photos of some children (see below) who he claims are on "his" soccer team and under that photo (see below) he calls me a [serious untrue allegation removed } (?), sick and twisted (?) and then threatens me to stay away from his children??? He is crazy! Deeeee deeeee deeeeee! The volume on the circus music playing in his head must be so loud it is clouding his ability to act rationally, or like a normal person. Uh, TS77, thanks for demonstrating that you are the pedophile here. And my, wouldn't the soccer moms of these children be interested in learning that you are using their children in your own sick, twisted and perverted manner - posting photos of unsuspecting and innocent people TS77, I mean really. You really are a dim wit. ....???

Posted by Michelle R. Shining Elk “

Brent Micheal Davids has a blog criticizing Yeagley

And Martin falsely accuses him like he did to Michelle

Posted - 02/18/2008
“Isn't Brent Michael Davids the winkte/chubby gay guy who posted pics of little children on his website? Figures he and crazy Al are internet "bed-fellows". BMD as I am told he goes by is some morbidly obese pervert who [serious and untrue allegation removed]

Posted - 02/18/2008

“The massive coronary waiting to happen Brent Michael Davids.

Miss Davids the winkte has been known to post pictures of little children on his website. So if you have any pics of kids on here, delete then ASAP! The guy is a fat [serious and untrue allegation removed].???
There is two sides to every story

 Posted - 03/20/2008
Actually, Martin posted the photos himself in some flicker-type internet site, and another blogger forwarded the links to badeagle.ORG (the truth-telling site, not the Yeagley blog), where NO photos appeared at any time, only TEXT links to photos briefly appeared.

Since the original uploads were by Martin himself, and posted on a public site, had no legal or moral compulsion to remove the text links, but I personally removed the text links out of sympathy for Martin's request. Nothing more.

Contrarily, Martin left many death threats on my answering machine, his response to my kindness. Those wishing to hear the threats can simply go and listen to them, they are a matter of public record now:

More information on these death threats can be found in the link below;

BMD further explained why his blog linked to photos of Martin's family, below ;

Posted - 03/29/2008

..........??? Martin posted the photos of his wife and children on a publicly-accessible site, and posted links to those photos for a few days, until Martin called to request the links be removed. I removed them, out of respect and quite frankly kindness.

Again, the links were only posted as proof that Martin "is married with children" in response to his alleged extra-curricular MySpace activities. was sent complaints and screen shots of Martin's alleged activities with other females on MySpace. So posted proof of his marital and family status — proof provided directly by Martin himself, and proof discovered by an "advanced" Indianz member I might add, who I have kept confidential even today.

That's all there was to the matter, and like I said, I acted out of kindness in removing them, as I was not bound morally nor legally to do anything; the actual photos were posted by Martin himself on a public site and I did not post the photos. I only provided a text link to find them, and only did so briefly.??? 

Seeing how Martin was talking to Michelle, using a different user name, so she did not know it was the same person as tallsoldier77, who had previously been abusive towards her , this explanation sounds believable.

Here is one example below.
Posted - 11/04/2007
I saw M. Shiningelk's pic. Her eyes are like devastating emerald stones, she is very pretty.. Michelle Shiningelk must have had a modeling career herself. What do you think Ajibik?

Al Carrol has a blog criticizing Yeagley

Al Carrol also gets repeatedly falsely accused same as BMD and Michelle
LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN Posted - 03/06/2008 : 7:18:37 PM

“What's the matter Carroll, no shamans to stalk or is your Russian porn site down? I have been hearing rumors that you were mixed up in some [serious untrue allegation removed] scandal involving two female Asian students while you defrauded the Dept of Education by claiming Indian status to receive grants. So you are a cheat and a liar. Let's see you worm your way out of this.  I received this e-mail from a very reliable source at ASU. They told me to let everyone here know the truth:???

AL CARROLL IS A PERVERTED [untrue allegation removed !!"
Posted - 02/19/2008

“Al, you are the biggest coward/idiot on this forum. You know that your flabby friend posted pics of innocent little children on his stupid website. He is almost as big of a [untrue allegation removed]as you and your [untrue allegation removed]. You called me a white supremacist. Now prove it. You are so full of shyt. What kind of Apache are you supposed to be? Tell fatboy to stick to what he does best: BLOWING THINGS!???

Posted - 03/16/2008

“Irony is a strange thing. Funny a person who comitted [ untrue serious allegation removed] while a grad student at ASU would even stoop so low to say such a thing. "Doctor" you should be ashamed of yourself. Al Carroll is the biggest Irish joker out there, Happy St. Paddy's day "doctor".

Martin also made threatening phone calls to Al Carroll's parents. More information can be read in the link below.

Another way Martin tries to discrediting the information provided by NAFPS is by saying this website is just a scam to make money.

A Way to Spread the Truth About Yeagley

Posted - 11/19/2006

“I have the researched the misinformation you call fact, libel and lies, from a lying liar. "Carrol", be a man and step up to the plate, your "site" is woefully trying to solicit funds to "keep" your little "organization" alive. BAD EAGLE.COM does not have a pathetic, telethon like, "tote board" begging for cash like a lost derelict.???

Posted - 11/19/2006

“I do not trust this "Carrol" person because I have conducted my own research on this "cyber-journalist" and all I see is a man desperately trying to solicit money from people, Indian and non-Indian alike, I question his motives.

He is using Dr. Yeagley here to get people to "contribute" funds to keep his web-site, up and running, so to speak.???

Contrary to the misinformation John Martin likes to spread around, NAFPS only asks for donations once a year to cover the small yearly costs of having this website hosted

Below is some discussion of the fund raising that takes place on this website;

John Martin also likes to put an article in different message boards that was published in John Lekay's Heyoka magazine which asks


He posted it here
and here

and here

and here

and here

He accuses Al of not being of Apache descent , and of being of Mexican Irish descent . I don't think Martin likes Mexicans because he calls Al lots of rude things to do with his Mexican heritage like “Taco head??? and “beaner???. A few examples are below

Posted - 01/11/2008

Have fun playing with yourself this weekend Chief Taco Bell.

Posted - 11/22/2006

Carrol is a little Mexcian taco-head who pops pills to make his little wee wee enlarge.

Martin repeatedly tries to make it seem like it's just Al's personal idea that people who sell ceremonies or misrepresent themselves as elders or medicine people are doing something wrong. This isn't true at all.

Martin likes to spread stories to make Native people feel angry about the movie Spirits for Sale. The stories Martin spreads not only make Al look bad but he tries to make elders look bad too.

Martin first mentions this movie on Yeagley's message board

June 15 2007
Screen shot of TS77 on Yeagley's message board complaining about the film,

Some of the lies John Martin creates are designed to offend the general public and some more specifically are targeted to offend Native people.

Like the article published by John Martin quoted from below ;

This web link no longer works, but screen shots of this article can be seen at the bottom of it ;

Posted: Aug Fri 03, 2007   Beware of racist film "Spirits for Sale".


I think she just wants to make a big impression on her Euro-trash buddies and others who have been exploiting Lakota Spirituality for decades.

Yeah right, like the average Lakota can afford to just jump on an airplane and fly to Sweden to see her stupid film "Spirits for Sale".


Lakota Grass Roots American Indian Movement leaders have received words that Arvol Looking Horse and paula Horne Mullen are going to have a showing of the Sacred Bundle at 2:00 PM at the Looking Horse complex in the Community of Green Grass on the Cheyenne River Sioux Indian reservation in North central South Dakota.

Urgency in this message is that they can't remember where exactly Arvol buried the Bundle,
( in his hectic schedule and world trips) Since Grass Has grown over the spot where Arvol buried it.

Warrior Societies, Tokala Societies and Akicita Societies are to bring their shovels and report there ASAP Monday morning to begin digging up the property to help locate it.

I have to give Martin some credit in this case as he did include the response from Annika who refuted these strange stories and accusations.

But then he said more stuff to make everyone who made the film loose credibility and try and make this film into a big controversy .

Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posted: Aug Mon 06, 2007  RE: Selling Sprirts

Annika and some fake Apache named Al Carroll apparently swindled some Sioux elders to be in their film. Al Carroll is notorious for running an anti-Indian hate site that was just recently shut down. The guy is a bigger fraud than Ward Churchill.

I don't believe anything that Annika Banfield or Al Carroll has to say, since both are obviously trying to rip-off American Indian ceremony, especially from the Sioux.

Screen shot of TS77 once again trying to discredit both this film and the many traditional elders who made it.

Screen shot of TS77trying to discredit Al Carroll and the film Spirits for Sale.

Posted - 03/18/2008

“Why can’t Al Carroll exploit his own??? tribe???? What is an admitted non-Indian doing commenting on Native Spirituality in the first place? How come Al won’t reveal his Apache “ancestry? This Swedish lady, Annika Banfield is exploiting an old Lakota man, Looking Horse. She and Al don’t give a damn about real Lakota issues, i.e. addiction, domestic violence, unemployment, teen suicide, hopelessness etc; That’s why she sent your CD back Mr. Luke.

Mrs. Banfield is just another euro new age Indian groupie. Her and “doctor??? Carroll are making a mockery of and desecrating Lakota Spirituality. Mrs. Banfield is now publicly lamenting because she was not able to recoup her financial losses because her film flopped.???

NAFPS does provide information about both Native and non native people if they are selling ceremonies , if their tribal leaders say this isn't OK and Martin frequently tries to get people upset about this by saying NAFPS is a bunch of non native people telling Native people what to do and that is “attacking “ Native people.

But, many or all the individuals Martin has defended have been non native exploiters. For example he posted the complaints of a nonnative exploiter over on Indianz.



The Standing Bear has recently been attacked by a group whose acronym is "NAFPS", for New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans. Their site address is

To learn more about what happened when I challenged their authority to sit in judgment on me, please scroll down this page to "Commentary Regarding the NAFPS Attack on the Center......."

Below is one of the things this non native woman was doing that NAFPS was objecting to

“August 18 - 27, 2006

Native American Teachings and Private Consultations with Cherokee Medicine Chief Weylin Lighteagle

Saturday & Sunday, August 19 & 20 Men's Teaching Circle and Sweat Lodge Ceremony

Cost: $250???

This is what John Martin had to say about this

Posted 11/22/2006

OK, let's expose the "real" Al Carrol, for who he really is. A self-proclaimed Mexican/Irishman of Mescalero Apache decent. Big Al, as he is known, is one of the founding Fathers of the "New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans Organization or "NAFPS".
I visited the "NAFPS" website, what a joke, they call themselves "the" Native watch-dog group, who ask for your help (MONEY) so that they can continue their vigilant work on "outing" Native Frauds.

Martin also supported John Lekay, an Englishman with an on line magazine that promoted many people falsely claiming to be entitled to a position of authority within NDN society, when these positions were only recognized by non native people. 

John Martin supported John Lekay, in pressuring the company that hosted NAFPS into shutting down .

The link below goes to publication called Native Cultural Activists Silenced Again which has a long list of comments . Those disagreeing with the activism of NAFPS are John Lekay, his supporters and TS77 AKA (John Martin ) saying many things to discredit Al Carroll, NAFPs and even the elders who are trying to defend their cultural practices from corruption.

In a couple comments Martin says the main reason the NAFPS got shut was because of Al Carroll's web blog on David Yeagley

See ya in Lawton
by Bullet proof vest
Wednesday Aug 15th, 2007

“.........Carroll is now under investigation by the LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT for, among other things "identitiy theft". He has revealed the personal info, i.e. addresses, phone numbers, places of employemnt of his victims. Al Carroll is a cultural menace, an extremely mentally disturbed individual. He has done more damage to the Native American Community than any other racist in history.

Go to and get a taste of what Carroll is dishing out. This is the primary reason why he was kicked off the internet, he will of course blame and name others, however, when the dust settles, it is Carroll who stands alone, a beacon to those who enjoy bashing American Indians.

John Martin (Enrolled Oglala, Lakota

“Carroll and his bed fellow Brent Micheal Davids have been at this game for an entire decade . What have they done for the plight of the American Indian ? What contributions have they made to assit Indian people in finding employment, overcoming addiction , domestic violence, racism ect?

Al Carroll is a snake who will attack anyone with his outlandish thories ( see David Yeagley .org )???;act=ST;f=19;t=7951

“I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over his laptop, lamenting like a woman.



John Martin is not an Elder or Spiritual leader.

Here is what the true Elders and recognized Spiritual leaders have to say about this ,

Instead Martin chooses to support non native exploiters like John Lekay , and Scarlet Kinney.

(edited to try and fix overlong links but I can't figure it out, and 1 wrong link )
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:43:34 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 03:40:17 pm »
John Lekay joined NAFPS under the user name Marlon . He is an Englishman who has an online magazine.

John Lekay's online magazine Heyoka had a thread to discuss it in research needed

Lekay /Marlon first posted here;all

About this guy

Thomas Lighteningbolt

“I was made a part of are "Ancients", they have been walking this continent for thousands and in some cases millions of years. Those people at NAFPS don't have the first clue about true mysticism. There are documented cases of mystics being able to "Bi-Locate" (to be in two places at the same time)! My point being is that if some one such as my teacher reveals himself to be Fools Crow it CAN be real! Several people I know have told me that Fools Crow has come to different people in different TIMES throughout history. Does that make him phony???

His" teacher " is apparently in some other dimension but Thomas is sure it is Fools Crow.

( what is below is quoted from the original web page – the word bizarre is now removed. )

Thomas Lighteningbolt

“Thank you for sending me a copy of that "Green Grass Proclamation" by Arvol Looking Horse. You are right, that is BIZZAR! How can he say those things? No non card carrying Indian should be allowed to carry eagle feathers? What about the Indians who have been railroaded out of their birth rights by the Government AND other Indians ie: Indians who have and are kicking out their own tribal members so they can selfishly hoard the Casino money for themselves (1,000,000,000$ goes further between 200 Indians than 2000 Indians)!

Further more, A Sun Dance leader once said "how can we not let people of other races into that arbor when all four colors of all four races hang in that Sun Dance arbor" White, Yellow, Black, Red. I am shocked that Arvol would say other races "keep out (basically)" Racism knows no bounds.

An elder said that proclamation is "evil" and "crazy", He said these people are "crazy". And who the heck is Arvol to say anything about people selling the "sacred" when he himself was (or still is) selling copies of the sacred "Star Book" ON LINE! “

Why would anybody think it matters if someone says an unnamed elder who may not even exist, said the real Lakota Spiritual leaders are evil and crazy?

Thomas Lighteningbolt

???That proclamation is ALL politics and my teacher said that politics is not Native American, it is a "white thing". Remember in our first interview I mentioned that people try to dictate who can and can't carry medicine, or be a medicine person? Politics! This whole situation is proving my point to a tee! These people are putting themselves in the place of the Great Creator! “

John Lekay

“What I do see is a pattern that Al Carroll/educated Indian attacks anyone who seems to not to fit into his compartment of what he believes an authentic medicine man should be. It looks like he took it upon himself to be the new age Tomás de Torquemada. "The hammer of heretics". A part of It appears its based on this Green Grass proclamation Why would anyone want the Bush Cheney administration telling people how to pray. That's bizarre.???
(again I am quoting the original webpage which has removed the allegation that this is 'bizarre'. a screen shot of the original statements are in the link below)

If he thinks the concern that these traditional ways be protected and maintained by Native people living in Native communities is bizarre,  Lekay must not know any real elders. it's actually a very normal concern.

Another person Lekay was promoting is Suzanne Dupree

Dupree disagrees with the way many Lakota Elders want to protect and maintain their culture and ceremonies and Dupree claims that she is the rightful authority on Lakota Spiritual matters, even though she did not grow up in the Lakota community and few if any Lakota people support her claims . ( Not one who does has yet been named and in order for these claims to be recognized to would take quite a few.)

Her reasoning is very long , detailed and is a mixture of facts, speculation presented as facts , speculation dismissing facts she doesn't like, and outright misinformation. Her whole long explanation seems designed to overwhelm peoples critical thinking abilities.

Dupree has done a lot to try to discredit Arvol Lookinghorse, and his position of authority , insisting she should be the one doing his job.

The article below, was written by one of Lekay's affiliates , and it tries to spread rumors to discredit a film about the protection of ceremonies which features many Native people and Spiritual leaders explaining why this is a problem. One of the people in the film is Arvol Lookinghorse.

Some of Dupree's (Looking Back Woman AKA LBW )'s comments can be read in the article above , and more can be seen in what Dupree ( LBW) posted in the online Rapid City Journal. This can no longer be found online but a saved upload of the web page showing her attempts to discredit Arvol Looking horse can still be seen here

One good thing Marlon/Lekay did was he posted some correspondence between Dupree and the Smithsonion Inst.. The response to Dupree shows she was questioning the accuracy of the information recorded there which supported Arvol Lookinghorse's position of Spiritual leadership.

Dupree apparently persuaded a historian to revise the history recorded in the Smithsonian Inst. - and to allow her to tell him how it should be revised


Re: Dupree Pt 2
Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007

Quoting a letter from Ray DeMallie of the Smithsonian Institute, speaking to Dupree;

“Later this spring, after our semester ends, I plan to make a trip to Washington during which I will have the opportunity to visit the National Anthropological Archives. In the meantime, I will write to Rob Leopold and send him a revised and streamlined catalog entry, with the request that he substitute it for the old one. Before I do so, I am attaching it below for your comments, to see if you think it is appropriate.

I will ask that this be deleted from the catalog entry. “

Just before Lekay posted this correspondence thinking it was proof of Dupree's claims, Dupree posting under the user name LBW and mentioned that people should check out the archived information

Dupree Pt 2
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007

for more archival information that was collected between 1964-1967, that I had no way of manipulating...go read it for yourself, and you will see with your own eyes where the deception started, and by what family

What was removed from the archives was all references to the Lookinghorse family as it was recorded in relationship to the duties that were passed to Arvol Looking horse.

You can see a saved copy of the Smithsonian web page before Dupree appears to have persuaded the Smithsonian to change it, in the link below

And below is the page after all references to the Lookinghorse family have been deleted!92671!0

Lekay also had interviewed Kevin Annette and was quite outraged when NAFPS members pointed out that many Native people felt Annette had misused their personal information and their trust . A thread explaining these concerns is in the link below ;

Lekay was also promoting a guy who advertises himself as a psychotherapist.;all

This psychotherapist got mad at Al for questioning his professional training and some of his personal beliefs that were expressed in his writing , so he wrote an article to make Al look like he had a big psychological problem. Part of it is quoted below.

To John Le Kay, Editor Heyoka Magazine - July 03, 2007 - 2:00 pm CST – Jaye A. La Vallee

“I see how Alton Carroll focuses on sexual deviance and sexual perpetration issues… this along with talks of violence and threat cause me deep concern because it appears that he has a deeper sexual issues, possibly unresolved disturbances from being victimized or perpetrated as young person - homeless, surviving and living the street life. He displays through his accusations that sexual issues are deep and strong on his agenda and that he relies on this deviance as a way of shaming others, likely to deflect his own history. “
???Like so many homeless children of ethnic dark-skinned minorities, struggling for their identity, especially ones who were separated from their roots, these tend to suffer shame even more deeply. From disconnected abusive parents. They, we are at higher risk for sexual deviance… because of family dysfunction and sexual and violence issues and the loss of nurturing and sustaining affection.???
???His emphasis and referral to other people’s sexual deviance issues of others leads me to feel he is suffering with and from this issue. As well, he offers – no solution and has taken one him self.
“I feel that Alton Carroll has unresolved deep-seeded sexual deviance issues and got then as most often have, through a troubled, violent, alcoholic childhood… in the family of origin and that he probably went on to cope and survive abuse, by doing what was necessary and required when he was living – the homeless life in the streets… I believe this is where he was forced to sell his own plasma and take part in other dangerous street life high-risk situations.???

I thought psychologists are supposed to avoid personal relationships and emotional entanglements with people they are applying their knowledge to . Otherwise there is always a danger of projection of self onto others.

When NAFPS members continued to insist that only Native communities have the right to decide who is authoritative and who is entitled to positions of Spiritual leadership and we would not agree with Lekay's selections, Lekay began making complaints to the company hosting NAFPS that this website was libeling him and the people he was promoting as American Indian Spiritual leaders.

John Martin / Tallsoldier77 registered here as Steve_w , and began supporting Lekay .

Lekay even did an article in his Heyoka magazine titled “John Martin on NAFPS???

It is not on line anymore but it was copied and is still posted here


???This interaction is with a man named John Martin. A full blooded Lakota who went on the forum under the pseudonym Steve W to question Al Carroll about his hate speech, libeling others and his claims of being a Mescalero apache. Al Carroll was claming Steve W was John LeKay.

Lekay defended John Martin's buddy David Yeagley .

John Lekay

???Or when really pushed, he will fabricate and say that full blooded Lakota John Martin has threatened his parents as another excuse for not giving his mother's maiden name. Then he tops it off with labeling him a white supremacist.

He has also used the same strategy on David Yeagley who is Comanche. Like a mantra, he repeats these words and labels hoping they will stick. In Mr. Yeagley's case, Mr. Carroll has even taken out a website using Yaegley's name. Another of Mr. Carrol's associates, called Brent Michael David, has done the same.

This is how fanatical and extreme he has become that he would even use another person's name in any way he can to attract attention to himself. '

Lekay also recruited a woman named Robin to give him an interview.

Robin AKA Raven AKA Raven-walkingstick AKA Kwa-kwen and her friend Joyce aldridge /Troxell AKA Angela AKA walking-soft AKA weheli were members of NAFPS for about a year until they became involved in what seemed to be a petty dispute over Al allowing someone they didn't like to join NAFPS. Because of this disagreement they both began spreading around a rather distorted version of what had happened . As it turned out it's unlikely either of these women were who they claimed to be , and their purpose in their participation here appears to have been  a lot more about role playing on line,  than a commitment to protect vulnerable people from frauds, or what they claimed as their own people and culture from exploitation.

The full story about this dispute can be found in the link below;

More information on Robin's friend Joyce can be found in this next link

Lekay's complaints to the company that hosted NAFPS scared them and for about a week NAFPS was shut down.

Tallsoldier77 bragged about this on David Yeagley's BadEagle message board, attributing this to John Lekay and David Yeagley.;act=ST;f=19;t=7951


“I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over his laptop, lamenting like a woman.



When NAFPS was shut down, an article called Native Cultural Activists Voices Silenced Again was written and published on an indymedia site, and Lekay and his friends continued to post comments arguing that the people they wanted to promote were not frauds and what real NDNS and elders were saying was wrong.

John Lekay kept insisting he had been libeled by NAFPS members because they pointed out his dominating behavior and assumptions of entitlement were racist ...

After a short time of NAFPS being off line, another service provider was found ....

But many of the stories and lies Lekay told are still online or copied and published in other websites .
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:51:38 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 09:10:43 pm »
As I mentioned yesterday , I edited reply #4 to include more information today. I wanted to keep this in something of a chronological order, and yesterday I didn't have it together to include everything in reply #4 . Sorry to do things a bit backwards ..but maintaining some semblence of a sequence in the order of  these 3 posts above, will hopefully be a bit less mind boggling..

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 05:05:54 pm »
OK , I got it more together now ...

I see Betsy Ashby is posting over on Indianz under the name "Guardian" and she has now provided a link to the aforementioned personal ad which is still in the web archive , and which has Al's old email address.  I won't post the link here but people can find it in the link below , if they gotta see it.

I notice in her post about this , Betsy has altered the original ad , omitting the part where it says the mans name is "Carl" , and she neglects to point out that the way this website is set up , absolutely anyone can post an ad using anybodies email address.  The archived page where people posted from is below.

As I also see her bragging about how much she knows about cyberspace and the holes in security it seems odd she would neglect to point out that anybody who felt like embarrassing Al could place this ad.

It really is easy to install the "ignore poster" feature:

I could do it for them in a few minutes with their permission. Actually, I could do it for them in a few minutes without their permission ...but that would be very rude...not to mention criminal ROFL (this is an intentional funny :-)

page 2
Well ...if I ever decided to take off my White Hat, you KNOW whose platter would get slagged first! ROFL

Admin probably disabled html and the [ img ] tag for security reasons. I do not allow any "get" commands on my forums either. There are MANY reasons not to allow cross site requests. For instance, each time someone loads a topic containing a image hosted on my server, my site stats bot records their IP, browser, etc.

You can redirect users, steal log-in details, etc. with cross site scripting. There are other ways to prevent tag script injection, but just disabling the img tag feature is the easiest.

page 2
White Hats absolutely DO NOT engage in unauthorized hacking, and are the exact polar opposite of Black Hats. White Hats help secure machines AGAINST hacking attempts. There are White Hat clubs where members hack on each others boxes with PERMISSION, both to learn, and to expose vulnerabilities in other club member's networks. Frequently White Hats are hired to attack a system, by that system's owner, because the owner knows the White Hat will not leave a destructive payload.

I have to wonder why Betsy would continue to draw attention to this peculiar ad , when it obviously could have been placed by anyone , and Al has clearly let her know it was not placed by him.  I have never seen anything in Al actions that suggests he secretly wants more than one wife , or that he ever uses traditions out of context.  Al tells me he did not post this , and I see no reason not to believe him.

What seems a lot more likely is someone maliciously placed that ad in order to embarrass and discredit him. Betsy seems like a smart lady . Presumably she is aware of this.
What I find most peculiar is why is Betsy Ashby going out of her way to discredit the work done by NAFPS when she claims to care about exposing frauds ?

Surely Betsy is smart enough to realize when she unfairly discredits people who support the protection of ceremonies , she is indirectly damaging respect for the Elders who are struggling to protect their ceremonies?   

She seems to be justifying her hatred of NAFPS by claiming she is better because she makes sure she has documentation , but in the thread in the first link , Betsy also admits to defending Brooke Edwards , though now she admits to not knowing how to tell if a tribal ID card is a fake . And as already pointed out ,  when she doesn't like someone she appears very willing to ignore obvious information that casts her so called documentation into doubt. 

I agree that people posting in NAFPS all make mistakes occaisionally, and these mistakes should be rectified even if we don't like some stuff about the people involved. But it seems odd Betsy would have such a enduring grudge against Al for allegedly mistaking Brooke E for Brooke S , as she herself also makes mistakes sometimes. Why would she carry such a grudge if she really wholeheartedly supports exposing frauds - which is the basic work done by NAFPS?

Something is not adding up here....

Oh...  and I see some what I quoted from in my previous post on Betsy Ashby has been removed . Perhaps she realized some of what she said did not reflect favorably on her. I did save the evidence this was there ,  if anyone needs it ...


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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2008, 08:27:55 pm »
Brook Medicine Eagle has been on fraud list for a long time.  Betsy Ashby goes from list to list trying to get something started.  Most of the time she leaves when no one pays attention to her.  She's non-NDN, claims to be some sort of Pagan and it seems she does the same to them.             You have to scroll about half of the page to find their comments about her.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2008, 11:54:43 pm »
Hi Frederica

I don't know if any of the accusations or counter accusations on that website are true. I don't know enough about the Pagan community to judge , but some of those names people are using sound very fanciful.

One thing for sure is Betsy seems to enjoy a fight , but so far as I have seen , her idea of justice doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe she just enjoys trouble like you say. I always imagine people have some sort of reasons for what they do. LOL Silly me.


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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 12:45:40 am »
Yep, I don't know anything about them either.  Saw them a while back when she was on another list going after somebody. Googled her  name and all that came up.  Look like just allegations to me, and they are old.  But I believe most on are well aware of Brooke Medicine Eagle.  What I remember she has the belief Brooke Medicine Shield is one of the "good girls".  Not a fraud, and that is why she left.  But she using the old LeKay stuff also, like what someone else did when they were displeased.  Just because they dredge it up, doesn't make it more true, just they all know where to go to retrieve it.

Offline 180IQ

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 03:49:07 am »
There's a new antagonist to add here but I will leave it to someone else to post as I am not sure what needs to be said. But I will say that you only catch flack when you're over the target!

Offline educatedindian

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2009, 01:20:37 am »
I've gotten some emails from people asking about Ashby's latest long long looooong series of attacks over at Indianz.

I haven't worried too much about Ashby's latest failed attempts to "get" me. Like always, I generally ignore it and just keep trying to do right. If someone is so dumb as to believe her, they'd probably believe in Elvis being killed by UFOs.

But to briefly sum up who Ashby is and what she's claiming, for anyone new to this:   

Betsy Ashby of the self styled Pagan Resource Center of Newport News VA first came after NAFPS and after me personally because NAFPS dared to criticize her idol, Brooke Edwards AKA "Medicine Eagle", a fraud who has spent several decades posing as a Crow medicine woman. Ashby's pagan gathering also hosted a phony "Miami shaman" the Miami had never heard of. It was Ashby's bad luck that I was going to Purdue at the time, and the Miami Nation were not far from me.

Ashby's response in her letters and elsewhere was memorable for a number of things:

She claimed there had been no genocide against NDNs.
She claimed there hadn't even been that many NDNs in the Americas anyway.
She even gave a number, less than 20,000, as supposedly all the NDNs killed by Euro invaders, and claimed NDNs killed far more Europeans and Americans, based on what she pulled from an old racist book.
She also told a story where she bragged Brooke Edwards had tricked a sheriff into shooting an unarmed AIM member protesting her exploiter ceremonies.

Finally she pledged to "spend every cent she had" to shut us down" for daring to criticize exploiters like Brooke Edwards.

That started a now-ten-year-old campaign against NAFPS and myself that must've taken up hundreds of hours on her part, spreading rumors and lies one more ridiculous than the other.

Ashby even set up an supposed anti fraud site. The problem is, she attacks mostly the least harmful ones out there, people with likely distant NDN ancestry who don’t know any better. These are mostly heritage groups she’s pillorying. If she were truly sincere, she’d go after the worst abusers, Nuage frauds like her beloved imposter-for-lots-of-cash Brooke Edwards. If she were truly sincere, she’d apologize and admit her mistake in defending this fraud, and she’d apologize also for smearing the ones out to stop frauds like Edwards, namely any NDN with any sense and any human being with a conscience

The latest nonsense: Supposedly I'm a white nationalist or Nazi whose been pretending to be NDN.

That one has just about everybody at Indianz laughing or their jaws dropping in shock from something so crazy.

I'm about as dark as Adam Beach or Jimmy Smitts. My photo has been posted online enough for anyone to see.

As reluctant as I am to go into my personal life...

When I first went to school, Texas was still segregating students by race within the schools. I spent my first year in what was nicknamed "the Mexican kindergarten."

In my teens and early twenties I was part of a street gang, Los Cycos, the San Antonio chapter of the gang Suicidal Cycos, founded by the old punk/metal band Suicidal Tendencies. The gang was multiracial, mostly Mexican, but also whites, Blacks, NDNs, and plenty of mixed heritage people like me.

We spent most of our time beating up skinheads, esp the local neo-Nazis, a chapter of Stormfront (Yeagley's buddies), and sometimes confronted the Confederate Hammerskins in Dallas when they came down or when we went to Dallas. I'm sure they would laugh also that I'm now being smeared as "one of them." And by someone who is much closer to their beliefs, namely Ashby.

My mom is Apache and Mexican. My wife is Cuban, and like most guajiras, she's of mixed blood. My brother in law and my niece are Jewish, and my sister converted to Judaism when they married, though she no longer practices.

I've been fortunate enough in my life to work with, for, or learn from many great NDN scholars. Among them:

Angela Cavendar Wilson (Dakota)
Joyce Kievet (Eastern Band Cherokee)
Pat Etter (Pottawatomi)
James Riding In (Pawnee)

Not to mention my hatewatch site exposing white supremacist David Yeagley,, that’s managed to undo most of the damage he’s tried to do to Natives, leaving him a pitiful marginalized joke with a tiny handful of racist followers. I certainly don’t take all the credit for that. Good people like Barbara Duggan and Beverly Isaacs and Brent Michael Davids have done just as much.

And NAFPS is made up of NDNs from dozens of tribes, whites, Blacks, Americans, Canadians, Australians, Europeans, Latin Americans, Native traditionalists, Christians, Moslems, pagans, atheists, etc.

Plus there are all the many other Native activists we've worked with over the years, and anti racist groups, listed here:

Some "white nationalist"....

She's also attacked me for supposedly being Catholic, as though that were a bad thing. Someone tell the Yaqui. Tell Mexican NDNs and NDNs all over Latin America. Really, I'm as Catholic as Woody Allen is Jewish. I was sent to Catholic school, but I don't practice.

All Ashby does by that line of attack is show she's a religious bigot in addition to her racism.

And ironically, some of the good people at Indianz uncovered the fact that her friend Yngona Desmond (who was kicked out of NAFPS for being a racist) was sponsoring a fraud posing as a Sammi shaman.

She's also claiming rather bizarrely I "wanted a harem." It seems she can't decide what racist insult to settle on by using an Arab bashing stereotype like that, and against an Apache/Mexican she claims is "white nationalist."

Again, Ashby's attacks backfired, since someone at Indianz uncovered that she lives in a polygamy relationship with two other women. Her bizarre defense is that it's supposedly celibate. That's irrelevant, (not to mention strangely prudish and anti sex) and it's still a polygamy relationship.

Yes, Ashby's campaigns have been a spectacular and downright laughable failure. I'd call her another Ken Starr, but at least Starr found himself a semen stained dress for his six or seven years of effort. Ashby's been at it longer, over ten years, and if anything she's helped us grow stronger and driven people to check us out. Liking what they see, they stick around and pass along what we say to others.

In the time since Ashby first went after us, NAFPS has gone from about 200 members to close to 1000 now.

We went from a little noticed yahoo group to a resource used by Native activists, universities, museums, Nuage survivors, and yes, pagan groups aching to know the truth and fed up with racist Nuage nonsense of the type Ashby peddles.

Ashby certainly hasn’t hurt me one bit. I’ve gone from a beginner at grad school to a Fulbright Scholar with my first published book on an academic press, as well as all the many thanks I constantly get for my work at NAFPS.

Thanks, Ms. Ashby. The more you attack us, the stronger we've gotten, and the more support we've gotten.

And if anyone cares to, they can repost this or link to it. Just please repost it in its entirety.

Offline susanh

  • Posts: 9
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 02:57:41 am »
Warning to ALL on Brooke Medicine Eagle & Sunny Babba AKA Robert Simonson.

Brooke medicine Eagle Edwards has a new name on her web-site.

"Chalise Brooke Medicine Eagle" She is now operating out of Washington state. See her new web page for updates.

She still asking for donations to the" Earth Heart Foundation" which is not a Non-profit organization. And was never formed.
Whatever money whe made while living on the land she called hers in Montana < which I don't believe was much >  was fraud......