I've put together a compilation showing the history of some of the people who have tried to discredit what we do here.
NAFPS is made of of many different types of people who have many different reasons for being here. Some people come here to share accurate information and are truely dedicated to protecting both people and Native traditions from exploitation and abuse. Others come here to disagree with something that is said here, and a few seem to come here just to entertain themselves by role playing in cyberspace . Together we create many lively discussions and no matter who people are , I think everyone who participates here brings some good things to share. Even if it is just provokation which forces all of us to to think things through more deeply.
Some of these people go on to try and discredit what is done here.
We are an imperfect bunch and even the people who have honorable intentions occaisionally make mistakes and have blind spots . What really bothers me is when instead of confronting someone with a specific incident where there is a disagreement, some people go on to try and generally discredit everything that is done here - and in the process of discrediting the information provided by NAFPS these people often undermine respect for the protection of ceremonies and the many recognized Elders and Spiritual leaders. who have repeatedly expressed concerns over this
I don't know what happened between NAFPS and Betsy Asby as I was not a member of NAFPS when this disagreement occured , so i don't know if betsy might have a valid complaint or not. I don't see anything on line anymore that links her to Brooke Medicine ego , but I see she continues to circulate stories which are obviously not likely to be true
I see she posts a lot on the "Issues Affecting Indians in Tennessee " message board, though I'm not sure what her intrest is, as she is non native.
The first post shows that the person posting as "Betsy" is "Betsy Ashby"http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=15621;title=Issues%20Affecting
Little voices told me ;-) — Betsy, Thu Aug 10 12:07PM
(begins.... ) .My name is Betsy Ashby! If anyone else had the same name on the net, they've probably changed it by now
Here is one of the stories she is spreading to discredit NAFPS ;http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=16653;title=Issues
This one wanted a harem?
Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:03AM
The "EducatedNDN" running NAFPS claimed to be a "Mescalero Apache" and "a graduate student in American Indian history at Purdue University"
I found this OLD message, posted from his email address, in which he admits he is a mudblood, among other things LOL He wasn't happy and had this message deleted from its original site, but it is still available on the wayback machine.
San Antonio for now, DC and Conn in a while WEB URL: <> Carl & Sheryl E-MAIL:
-- 03/29/99 -- 15:34:13
Hello, We are a couple seeking to practice traditional American Indian polygamy, meaning a woman centered household. We both have a mix of Catholic and native beliefs. I am mixed blood, also Irish/Mexican, 33, 6'1", 190, quiet, gentle, well educated, grad student becoming a professor, thoughtful, loving, devoted to family and friends. My wife is 20, 5', 90, Asian, straight, silly and fun, very bright,speaks 4 languages, becoming a computer programmer. we seek a single lady who is loving, opne, nonjealous, good hearted, any racial or ethnic background. We are very accepting of all peoples and beliefs. Please consider joining our loving family.
The first thing to note is that this supposed personal was placed by someone named “Carl???- which is not the same as the name “Al “ or “Alton???. Assuming this message exists, it seems peculilar that people would assume it was placed by someone named Al. But thats assuming it exists . Betsy doesn't actually provide the URL ... Which makes me think maybe it doesn't.
Someone on Indianz got mad at Al after hearing this story, and Al explained where the story originated .
Edited to add
I see where in this thread at indianz Al also repeats some things he heard about Betsy , and as he gives no sources himself maybe Betsy has a reason to complain - about that specifically - but from what I see these allegations can be found on other websites and are not posted in NAFPS.
As there is a few strange stories that got mentioned it's a bit unclear if this was started by Betsy Ashby or Tallsoldier77;http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27428&whichpage=2
Most of the lies you posted came from Ashby. That one particular one you just mentioned actually came from Tall "soldier".
Tallsoldier is one of the internet names of John Martin , who is a supporter of David Yeagley. Martin spreads lies about anyone who threatens to discredit Yeagley . His past behavior is shown in detail in the post below .
But Betsy apparently doesn't care about the source – ( or perhaps she is the source and that is why she neglects to include the URL to the archived webpage ) Instead she continues to spread this story and justifies this by claiming she has documentation http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=27961;title=Issues%20Affecting
Re: Who's got intel like that on you, anyway?
Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:16AM
As far as NAFPS goes, Al Carroll is as much of a Faux Indian as the rest of them. He DOES NOT research the people he profiles, he has publicly accused one person of what someone else with a similar name did, etc. etc. I've watched that man flat out lie and make stuff up about a person ...and yes, I can prove it. He's getting his own page too when the Mescalero Apache's reply to my snail mail. You know the "Spy vs Spy" cartoon? Well, I have half worked up a "Faux Indian vs. Faux Indian" site for Carroll....but unlike him, I am waiting for my documentation :-0
I do have the perv part of his page ready though ...wonder if he ever found that second female sexual partner he was advertising for on the net way back when he wasn't ashamed of being Mexican??
I'm not sure what are these people talking about? As Al has always said he is unenrolled I have to wonder what she expects to get back from the Mescalero Apaches. Confirmation that Al has always told the truth about this ?
Almost everything posted in NAFPS is sourced, and it is usually information found in webpages people put up about themselves . And Betsy is spreading this story about someone with a different name, to raise doubts about thes credibility of Al and the information posted in NAFPS, with no documentation at all , while at the same time claiming her research is better than what is found in NAFPS - because she supposedly waits to have documentation before spreading stories .
And Betsy expects people to believe she is more credible than NAFPS?
And then there is the racist and derogatory remarks calling Al a mud blood and suggesting being of indigenous descent from south of the border is something to be ashamed of .
And where is their sources as Betsy makes these allegations? I see nothing at all.
Even if some people sometimes post stuff on this message board and they make a mistake or it is flat out not true, at least the moderators here make an effort to counter this. People posting untrue allegations is a problem on many message boards. It seems especially hypocritical to be making an issue of this problem like NAFPS has some horrible failing because of this , as this particular message board Betsy likes to post on has allowed people like Robin, Joyce and John Martin to write many untrue allegations about NAFPS and Al. Most or all these allegations can easily be proven to be untrue and maliciously motivated ( see the information I've posted below ) but none of the moderators there stoped these people from posting these stories...
It seems Betsy thinks if someone posts something that isn't true on the NAFPS website , for some unexplained reason the moderators of NAFPS are responsible for that, but the moderators of the website she posts in aren't responsible for the lies other people post ? That seems to be a peculiar double standard.
Betsy's criticism of NAFPS allowing posters to say things that may not be fair seems especially odd, as she apparently thinks allowing non native people to say they don't agree with something is just fine ..http://www.witchvox.com/qotw/qwp_detail.html?offset=60&id=94
My Three Choices For Who's Who Jan 17th. at 2:47:23 am EST
My second nominee would be Betsy Ashby. Not for the work she does keeping the Gathering of the Tribes in Virginia going, but for another reason that some people might find "negative". Betsy Ashby is the owner and founder of the Witch Wars yahoo group which is an unmoderated and uncensored mailing list of everything from high ideals and speculation to venomous attacks and airing of grievances for the larger pagan community. This underutilized forum could be the clearinghouse of issues and communities in seemingly unresolvable conflict. This service can be used as a place for people to air grievances, concerns or even bring both sides of conflict together for possible resolution, or merely for both sides to air their sides.
Seems like she thinks non native people should be able to say whatever they like, but native people should only be able to say whatever she likes...
So whatever it is about NAFPS that offends Betsy it doesn't seem to be what she says it is, as she finds the same thing and worse , perfectly acceptable if she is doing it or it's happening on another message board. Which makes it seem like it's actually something else that she doesn't like about NAFPS but for some reason she doesn't want to say what that is. When people act like that i always suspect it's because people know if they said their real reasons nobody would find these reasons honorable. So they make stuff up.
Betsy seems to have some affiliation with groups which are often associated with White Supremacists . Reportedly, one of the honored guests featured at an event Betsy helps organize is one of the leaders of a Northern European heritage group which has connections to some White supremacist groups.
These affiliations recently came up and got discussed in the thread below; http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1786.0;all
Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 11:37:07 am »
Take your phony whites-only religion and shove off to Stormfront, where it appears people have heard of you
(this comment is explained in detail in Barnaby's following posts )
Re: Yngona Desmond
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2008, 06:59:31 am »
She's also scheduled to be the honored guest at a pagan "Gathering of Tribes" run by Betsy Ashbyhttp://22.214.171.124/search?q=cache:_lbWsPwe2H8J:www.pagan.com/SpringGathering/+%22
The 2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes...
We are pleased to have as our SPECIAL GUESTS at the
2008 Spring Gathering of the Tribes!
On the other hand Betsy sounds like she is doing some good things - at least on the surface it looks that way... She has put together her own version of an anti fraud website and Betsy says her aim is to discredit people making false claims to be Indian who are wrongly looking to take over Native identies and rights. http://www.pagan.com/FauxIndians/index.html
We contact Tribal Officials directly when checking out someone's public teaching credentials. It's not difficult. We fax the Tribe a copy of whatever the person is claiming and ask "Is this true?" Then we post the Tribal contact number so other reporters can do their own verifications. We're not talking rocket surgery here folks ec
If anyone has a problem with the information we receive from a Tribe, they need to TAKE IT UP WITH THAT TRIBAL OFFICE!!
If the person is in fact, an enrolled member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, we will say so.....in bold print.... and take down anything else about that individual. What a member of a Treaty Tribe wants to do with their own culture is between them and their Tribe. If someone doesn't like what a Federally Recognized Tribal member is doing...please go take it up with their Nation, not a bunch of white folk
I basicly agree with a lot of what she says on this subject, except there is a few problems.
First, faux indians aren't really the problem - it is how these people behave that is the problem. While it might be practical to expose people you know in real life who are falsely claiming to be Indian - to try and do this on line is probably nothing more than an inflamatory make work project.
Anybody who reads message boards like Indianz.com will see that on line disputes about who is Indian and who is pretending can go on and on and on and on and on and on .....seemingly with nothing gained except a lot of bad feelings and resentment.
On line, it seems to make better sense to focus on peoples behavior rather than their identity .
While it sounds respectful to insist that it needs to be the tribes and only people from the tribe the exploiter is claiming - who decide who is an exploiter and who isn't, the idea that this needs to be done on a case by case basis ignores the fact that many tribes have already clearly made official statements defining what they consider exploitive behavior and that anyone engaging in that behavior is an exploiter and should be avoided. Ignoring these official statements that already exist, and expecting to rehash this in each individual situation , on a case by case basis is not respectful . Expecting this to be defined on a case by case basis would completely bog down the relatively straight forward process of identifying people engaged in these behaviorr as people to avoid.
The next problem is that Betsy , who is non native , is trying to set herself up as some kind of official middleman between the public and the tribes - but as has already been pointed out, she has a nasty habit of saying stuff that isn't true if she personally doesn't like someone. So unfortunantly, there is no reason to trust anything she says, and such a person supposedly acting as a middleman is likely to confuse the issues and undermine respect for what tribes do in fact say, about what constitutes abuse , fraud and exploitation.
If people were to go about discrediting frauds in the way she is recommending as "ethical" it would men either taking her less than relaiable word for this, or it would mean nobody except the tribe could say a specific person was behaving in an unacceptable way, and EVERYBODY who wanted to know if someone was who they said they are and if what this person was doing was OK, would personally have to contact the tribe . Which would completely overwhelm the tribe with repeated inquireis about the same person.
I don't think this approach is practical, and advoctaing a solution to cultural protection that won't work , while spreading lies about the people using another approach that has a better chance of success, does undermine the ability of Native people to protect their culture.
If Betsy really cares about the issues she claims to, I have to wonder why she would behave in the way she does.
One reason Betsy may be lending her support is so she can have a hand in redefining the definitions of exploitation and abuse. Unfortunantely, I see this quite often and it is an old trick - ofering support to an indigenous nation which is being overwhelmed - but expecting concessions which compromise the integrity of the nation recieving this support, concession which often turn out to be the first step in the colonization process. http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=27987;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee
Re: He'll pop in here soon...
Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:03PM
 However, both NAFPS and the ShameOns regularly attack people for spouting some admittedly bizarre SPIRITUAL ideals.... which are matters of religious freedom and perception, not misrepresentation. No money or goods are changing hands, no 501 (c) (3) begging for funds, the person is not making any provably false claims of enrollment, or presenting any other bogus credentials, Indian or otherwise. They are honest about who they are and what they are doing... they just have some rather unique ideas regarding spirits, worship and creation.
If someone says they are channeling a space alien from the Pleides named Rodney who told them to worship the Great Turnip and dance naked around their barbecue grill chanting "Shis ka bob" ... we will defend to the death their right to do so ....as long as they have a tall privacy fence. Who am I to say who is hearing whose little voice in their head?? :-/
Actually NAFPS doesn't try to discredit unusual beliefs. What NAFPS tries to discredit is people claiming their personal unusual beliefs are some sort of tribal traditional belief when they just made it up or imagined it. NAFPS would only discredit the "religion" decribed above if the people were claiming it was Cherokee or Hopi or Lakota in it's origins. Betsy must know this but apparently she has some reason for wanting to make it sound like NAFPS just likes picking on people with unusual beliefs. It sounds like what Betsy is saying is that , if people don't claim to be enrolled and they aren't charging for the stuff they make up , she doesn't think anyone should be able to say what they are doing is not some tribal traditon as they are claiming and they just made it up. Even if that is the truth.
NAFPS and ShameOns also attack people who play mix and match the ceremonies from a variety of Traditions. For good or ill, this ALWAYS happens when different cultures intersect. [ edit ]it is NOT my job, or my right, to dictate someone else's Spiritual path ....no matter how ridiculous and/or insulting I may perceive it to be. Whatever .. no victim, no crime.... Oh, and then there is that pesky little clause in the Bill of Rights ;-)
And so while she is willing discredit people wrongly claiming an Indian identity, she apparently will defend the right of non natives to help themself to Native traditions and ceremonies and does not see this as a crime, and she doesn't consider denying Native people the right to select their own leaders, and maintain and protect their own culture and traditions as they see fit , a creating victims of a crime.
I can see why some people feel this woman is a racist ...
(edited to add the additional information I mentioned i planed to add yesterday... )