Author Topic: The Red Record  (Read 177793 times)

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2008, 02:41:18 am »
"Looking at your illustration comparisons I only see very common Amerind motifs found from Nova Scotia to Nevada"....

It proves that archaeological evidence from across the continent exists with prehistoric symbols from the Walam Olum.

You claim that these are "very common Motifs".  I know of no other examples of authentic artifacts in existence that match the symbols.  If you can show any other examples. please do.

This widespread connections to Walam Olum imagery show that the matching stone engravings were created prehistorically.

The attribution of these artifacts to events such as the list of chiefs and to tribal legends would not be possible without Raf.s documentation of the wisdom shared by Native Informants.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:56:08 am by BuboAhab »

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2008, 02:54:18 am »
P.S. How can something be "very common" and yet "not exist"?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 08:19:00 pm by BuboAhab »

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2008, 12:03:02 am »
You claim that these are "very common Motifs".  I know of no other examples of authentic artifacts in existence that match the symbols.  If you can show any other examples. please do.

   The rock art found all throughout New England. The "Story Stones" documented by Edward Lenik.  They were found in Odell Park in Franklin, New Hampshire although the images are far more complicated and artistic than the Walum Olum.
  A matter of fact. If you read Edward Lenik's Many articles and books on Coastal Algonquian rock art and clay images you would see for yourself that the Walum Olum pictographs are very linear and simple compared to real Coastal Algonquian imagery. That is one of the things that makes it such a insult to my people's cultural development.
   
     

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2008, 05:16:46 pm »
Now you say the drawings are "too simple" and "insulting to my people's cultural development."

Take a look at the Birchbark scrolls by Selwyn Dewdney from 1965 for more examples of parallels to this imagery that were shared by James Red Sky, a Shoal Lake Midewiwin elder.

Each form conveyed very complex meanings. The history and events they describe are not simple and countless parallel accounts have been recorded by many other native informants.  Consider the story of Nanabozho and glooskap.

The question was can you can identify any other artifacts that match the Walam Olum Imagery. Leniks rock art studies identified a interesting variety of different forms on the coast.

Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 12:59:32 am »

Consider the story of Nanabozho and glooskap.

The question was can you can identify any other artifacts that match the Walam Olum Imagery. Leniks rock art studies identified a interesting variety of different forms on the coast.

 Nanabozho, Glooskap or their equivalent did not exist among the Southern Unami or even the Southern Algonquians.

  Midiwin scrolls have been in the possession of Europeans since the 18th Century when they were first collected by Jesuits. That is where Ranfinesque drew his images from. The question is can you show me any parallels in the images collected by Lenik?   

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2008, 03:25:51 am »
Interesting question. A parallel can be seen in the Book of Wild (Manuscript Pictographique Amerique), recorded by D. Emanuel 1860.

This correspondence is to share my excitement about an interesting document with you - called the Book of Wild.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Book%20of%20Wild/
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/bookofwild.htm

I scanned this document from Microfilm at Rice University in Houston, TX. It was recorded by Domenech Emanuel (1825-1903). This 1860 document is called The Manuscript Pictographique Amerique. (Book of Wild). D. Emanuel started out as a French Missionary where he stayed in St. Louis at the Seminary of the Barrens.

I think he may have acquired the document when he was at that seminary, The origin of the document with American Indian Pictographs probably has much earlier origin,.

Of particular interest are the written languages on the document and the depictions of swords and scabbards, as well as sailing ships. I do not know what it is or what it says. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I did some research to find out who D. Emmanuel was. and found that he was one of the first ordained missionaries in texas, and spent a lot of time as an amateur ethnographer. He made trips to the Western states and recorded many interesting examples of petroglyphs in several later works.

Imp.Lemercier Paris, this ideographic of the "Red Indians" was indeed controversial. The author wrote some responses to this document were "full of hatred of a national jealousy".

An translation from the frech document stated: "We should not expect to find in a library a important manuscript  written by the Sachem hand of some insider secrets of all institutions of this tribe.
 That is what happened.
The Library of the Arsenal has, for nearly a century, hidden in a box that contained the volume manuscript,
 and bears in the catalog title  Book of Wild. This volume, indeed, was by penned by the Indians of New France.
The Marquis de Paulmy, who had in his valuable library, received, probably from
 some travelers or that were donated by missionaries.
We were unable, however, discover a certain provenance of the Book of the Wild.
 It is a collection of figures and hieroglyphics intermingled
of letters and numbers very crudely and very naively
designed to lead and rolled in red crayon on
 thick paper mill in Canada. The collection is incomplete at the beginning and end,
also offers regrettable shortcomings in the current volume.
 It consists still lift sheets of a small size of 4" or more less affected by the seawater, which has made them stick together.
This manuscript we had reported as a monument very curious and perhaps unique in the world, by
 famous bibliophile Paul Lacroix, curator of the Library of the Arsenal made
 us take a facsimile, with the intention to recommend to Mexican archaeologists..
 A missionary scholar who returning from the United States, where he stayed long
 among Indian tribes, may have provided us this precious manuscript. 
Also, it is with feelings of deep gratitude we thank the government of His Majesty
Emperor Napoleon III of its readiness to meet and our plea to all charges of this publication and he was executed in the seventeenth century. We have not ever published a manuscript apparently rarer and more singular than this: it is
 undoubtedly from the old people of New France . We
 do not claim to provide translation, not would be hardly possible, with the weak information
, it has on the pictographic redskins: however, we think we can explain not only the about this manuscript, but still a large number of
 hieroglyphics it contains.  But before you start this explanation we give some preliminary details on on the Indian ideographic."

Vince
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 02:57:27 pm by BuboAhab »

Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2008, 12:04:51 am »
Interesting question.
Vince

 You didn't answer it.
 I bet you Rafinesque had a copy of that book......

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2008, 04:38:11 am »
The imagery presented by Lenik closely/precisely matches that shown in the Book of Wild.

Google books link

This document was published by the French Government and is composed of fragments of ancient Indigenous compositions, drama or rhetoric, adapted since the conquest including Subject of Christians.  The author wrote it is urgent to collect these oratories, which are becoming daily more unintelligible and quickly lost amid political concussions incessant. Such documents embrace the whole history of periods cosmogonic, Toltec history, until the arrival of Cortez.  Geography and ethnography of the area between the Mississippi and Grand Ocean are represented in the book at hand. It includes representations purely artistic, annals, calendars, rituals, parts of the trial, land registration, and finally the mixed signs of writing and numeration. Using the help of writing and plans drawing, as on our maps, our plans including some prints with captions, where the legend and localities are accompanied by their own name and sometimes a narrative. This leads all to the absolute conclusion on the degree of perfection achieved through writing which could only be taught in indigenous institutions.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 09:50:06 am by BuboAhab »


Post previously edited by original poster at time indicated above. Link shortened by Barnaby so page will fit in browser window.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 10:57:54 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2008, 02:45:36 am »
The imagery presented by Lenik closely/precisely matches that shown in the Book of Wild.

 That wasn't the answer to my question either. You have to match Lenik with the Walum Olum.

   

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2008, 06:03:32 pm »
Thank you for the tip. I just purchased the book and find this source excellent. More to follow.

Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2008, 04:14:42 am »
Thank you for the tip. I just purchased the book and find this source excellent. More to follow.

 You can still buy ASNJ (Archaeology Society of New Jersey)  bulletins online with many of his articles in them also.

 Peace-Rich

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2008, 01:54:44 am »
Hi all -

Since I included the WO in an appendix of my book "Man and Impact in the Americas",  and only learned of Oestreicher's work
on it afterwards,  I have taken a good look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Walam_Olum

While I have no doubt of early Algonquin migrations into the North East (Mohican) , I am fairly certain that
the Lenape proper were not among them. (See the link for a summary Lenape archaeology. By the way the Lenape powwow at Anderson was a pleasure. The Little Ice Age was brutal in North America, and I won't hold their efforts at survival during it
against their descendants, as long as they do not claim Shawnee ceremonial sites.)

You have to be careful when you use the archaeologists' term "Adena" which was taken from an estate's name. Properly, the "Adena" were the Andaste (Andasteranon - sp?) people (their real name) and Iroquoian.

As far as tallegewi, etc., they were tshilliga/the division Shawnee. (see the link.)

Now what Oestreicher, whose work was supported by Kraft, would have us believe is that Rafinesque
forged the WO in one month. That is simply super-human. Sadly, it is also clear that Rafinesque's own
shortcomings interfered with his preservation of the WO.

If what one is trying to  do is to actually retrieve the Lenape medewiwin's account, and that is what is desired, clearly one has to get to Heckewelder's 1822 manuscript, and start from there.  I've had a stroke, and mastering Lenape to that point, along with
the money required to work with the microfilm of H.'s manuscript are beyond me now, so I'll continue to pass on the Lenape
fragments as preserved, along with some notice of the problems involved.

Also sadly, I see that the effects of Jerry Pope's fraud continue to have their effects, including casting aspersions on good people. I want to assure you that East of the River Shawnee have safegaurds in place to assure that that does not happen again. I have also heard of a Yeogehenny Shawnee group which has formed from people who left Pope, but have yet to meet them.

I soon will start to work on new materials on Richard Kieninger, Frank Joseph Collin, et al., whose fraudulent histories appear every month in every Barnes and Noble and Borders bookstore in the nation. You can write to me for a copy of that study as it now sits, or educated indian will send you one. You will be amazed.
 
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
(And by the way, I have a special deal on "my" book for some people, if you want to write me.)
 









Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2008, 09:52:43 pm »

You have to be careful when you use the archaeologists' term "Adena" which was taken from an estate's name. Properly, the "Adena" were the Andaste (Andasteranon - sp?) people (their real name) and Iroquoian.

 The "Andaste" was the Susquehannocks. This is on several documented deeds from the 17th Century between Colony of Maryland and the tribe. They did not come down into the Susquehanna Valley-Delmarva Area until the Late Woodland ( about 1300-1500).
 The Adena/ Middlesex People came into the Delaware Valley- Delmarva area during the Terminal Archaic- Very Early Woodland. They were Proto- Central Algonquian.
  The Munsee and Mohican were Northern Algonquian and migrated straight down the coast during the Late Middle  Woodland.   
 









[/quote]

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2008, 07:05:18 pm »
I'll have to differ with you on the Andaste. Nanticote, along with some things.  The pile of evidence why
is set out in my book "Man and Impact in the Americas", and I can't retype all of it here.

Sure, after the Virginia colonists' attack a few Andaste survivors assimilated with the Susquehannocks, but no,
the Andaste were very distinct: male height was around seven and half feet tall, and everybody else remembered fighting
them: HoChunk, Menominee, Ojibwe, Five Nations, Cherokee, Shawnee. And not only do we have the Maryland records,
we actually have the eye witness account of one colonist who lived with them, along with other visitors accounts. And yes,
they were actually seven and a half feet tall.

And yes, the peoples' accounts line up perfectly with the archaeological record of the Andaste, also set out in my book.
A short introduction would be Dragoo's "Mounds for the Dead".

If you don't want to buy a copy of my book for the special price (and contact me off list for this),
I gifted copies to many libraries, so you can read a copy for free through inter-library loan at your local library.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas







Offline NanticokePiney

  • Posts: 191
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2008, 12:45:24 am »
I'll have to differ with you on the Andaste. Nanticote, along with some things.  The pile of evidence why
is set out in my book "Man and Impact in the Americas", and I can't retype all of it here.

Sure, after the Virginia colonists' attack a few Andaste survivors assimilated with the Susquehannocks, but no,
the Andaste were very distinct: male height was around seven and half feet tall, and everybody else remembered fighting
them: HoChunk, Menominee, Ojibwe, Five Nations, Cherokee, Shawnee. And not only do we have the Maryland records,
they were actually seven and a half feet tall.
If you don't want to buy a copy of my book for the special price (and contact me off list for this),
I gifted copies to many libraries, so you can read a copy for free through inter-library loan at your local library.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


     :o   Never saw that on any dig, bulletin or report I read. So were they half Angel, half space alien, or a lost tribe of Semites???????