Author Topic: The Red Record  (Read 182523 times)

frederica

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 03:11:06 am »
I was always told it was legimate, too bad it's lost. I heard a while back that there was new evidence to support it.

Offline orville

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2008, 05:58:56 am »
Hello folks, I'd read read an interesting article extensively referencing The Red Record, and found the New Age Fraud forum while searching for more info on the subject.  I noticed this thread under the 'research needed' section, so thought I'd share.    The article is located at http://www.hope-of-israel.org/aztec.htm     

- orville

frederica

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 11:25:11 pm »
Well, that article seems to indicate someone else (Berbers) or the like built the mounds.  The problem with the Red Record is it has been missing since the late 1800.   I believe parts of it may be accurate but would not endorsed as a accurate migration story. I don't believe the Ice Bridge.  From what I can recall it was give to a Moravian Dr. who gave it to Rafinesque. He is the one that translated it. And the problem with that is he used the Moravian Archives in Philadelphia. They did not have access to much more than common Lenape' words because the Tradition practices were barred to them.  So his translation was greatly suspect.  That and his history did him in.  As far as I know the Lenape' were in the Pennsylvania area for about 10 to 12,000 years.  There is other problems with their theories.  This is about 10 pages. www.abcd-classics.com/thomascy/ohiomounds/ohio_mounds-037.html  It's been pretty well decided they are Ndn, just what Nation no one is sure.  Lesson learned. Never give anything of your Nation to anyone else to preserve.

Offline orville

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 12:57:11 am »
Hi Frederica,

The article I'd referred to connects the Aztecs mound builders to Caananite mound builders escaping Joshua's genocide of the Caananites.  It traces these peoples over time, through various peoples such as Thracians, Berbers, Tallegwi, etc, and suggests they became some of the NDN nations.  The accounts of the Red Record supports the other information presented in the article.

I'm usually skeptical of such translations, especially from the 19th century - a lot of "scientific" hoaxes being perpetrated then.  But, my understanding from reading an article at http://lenapedelawarehistory.net/mirror/wallamolum.htm , is that the Delaware nation endorsed a translation of The Red Record in 1980.  The account is given in the full article and seems consistent with that presented in the 'Aztec' article. 

"In 1976, David McCutchen, a graduate of the University of California at Santa Barbara and the California Institute of the Arts, was hired to research the history of the Delaware Nation. It should be pointed out that the tribal name "Lenni-Lenape" meant the "Original People". In 1610, Captain Samuel Argall sailed up the Lenape River, and named both the river, and the people living on its banks, the "Delaware" in honor of his patron, Lord De La Warr. From that time on, these people were referred to by outsiders and Europeans as the "Delaware".

In his work, McCutchen came upon The Red Record, the history of its translation, some of the original wooden prayer sticks, and the original words which described the meanings of the carvings. He completed his study as far as he could, and then proceeded to go to the source. He took the results of his research, photographs of the original prayer sticks, and all materials the curators would allow, to Linda Poolaw, the Grand Chief of the Delaware Nation Grand Council of North America in Oklahoma. With Chief Poolaw's assistance, McCutchen was able to fill in the blanks, answer remaining questions and complete the final translation of The Red Record. In 1980, the tribal descendents of the Lenni-Lenape passed a resolution endorsing McCutchen's recreation of the entire Red Record as an accurate re-telling of the history of their people."

Thanks for the link to "The Problems of the Ohio Mounds" article, I've had a quick scan and look forward to reading it later this evening.

BTW, while I do believe in a Bering land bridge, I reckon it accounts for only portion of the populating of this continent.  I think as many, if not more, sailed here.


- orville

frederica

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 06:02:29 pm »
Hi Frederica,

 


In his work, McCutchen came upon The Red Record, the history of its translation, some of the original wooden prayer sticks, and the original words which described the meanings of the carvings. He completed his study as far as he could, and then proceeded to go to the source. He took the results of his research, photographs of the original prayer sticks, and all materials the curators would allow, to Linda Poolaw, the Grand Chief of the Delaware Nation Grand Council of North America in Oklahoma. With Chief Poolaw's assistance, McCutchen was able to fill in the blanks, answer remaining questions and complete the final translation of The Red Record. In 1980, the tribal descendents of the Lenni-Lenape passed a resolution endorsing McCutchen's recreation of the entire Red Record as an accurate
    As far as I know the endorsement has been withdrawn as entirely accurate. I believe that was in the 90's.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 07:13:29 pm by frederica »

Offline ndn_proud

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 07:53:12 pm »
He' kulamalsihemo hach?
  I usually only read here, having little to offer, but thought I would offer my little knowledge of this topic.  A very good look into the "Walam Olum" was done in the "Bulletin of the Archaeological Society of New Jersey", No. 49, 1994, pgs. 1-44.  This was written by David M. Oestreicher with the blessings of Delaware Elders, including Lucy Parks Blalock from Eastern Oklahoma.  This article points to the 3 "main" reasons for Rafinesque to make up the whole fraud, 1) It would confirm his theories concerning the peopling of America, the distruction of the Moundbuilder Civilation, as well as the time frame of the ancient American history, 2) this "discovery" and "translation" would grant him the much sought scientific recognition, 3) and of course INCOME, no less than 3 times did he try to sell the "Walam Olum" for a "hefty sum".
  As far as what is "accepted" as truth, there are probably as many Delaware/Lenape who "accepts it" as there are who discredit it, in my opinion the evidence against it is much more realistic.

Wanishi

Offline orville

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 04:06:03 am »
Thanks Frederica, that would explain why I can't find reference to the Red Record on the Delaware Tribe websites.  In their FAQ, responding to 'How did your tribe get started?', the reply begins with "We are not sure." Also thanks Wanishi for the Oesteicher reference.  So, another 19th century 'scientific' fraud .... suprise, surprise!  :-)

- orville

Offline E.P. Grondine

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    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 05:30:23 am »
Hello everyone -

First off, nobody built "mounds". Dirt was used in the construction of many different structures: forts, platforms for temples and nobles' residences, places of astronomical celebration, ballcourts, burials,  etc. "mounds" are what you end up with several centuries to several millenia afterwards.

There were no "moundbuilders". Different peoples used dirt to construct different structures at different times, and those peoples had and have names.

Second, Oestricher claims that Rafinesque forged the Walum Olum using the Moravian missionary Heckewelder's recording of the Lenape migration tradition. Now even if the Walum Olum was cobbled together by Rafinesque from Lenape sources, which seems unlikely to me, the archaeological sequence set out above showing the Lenape migration during the Little Ice Age still stands, and is rock solid, along with Heckewelder's recording of the Lenape account, which agrees with that archaeological sequence.

Everyone would like their ancestors to be there "forever", but often that was not the case. Peoples moved; and sometimes they merged.

That Rafinesque was gifted with a pictographic copy of the Walum Olum in 1822, immediately after the Lenape deportation of 1821, seems likely.

Third, Oestreicher bases his argument that Rafinesque forged the Walum Olum on the basis of a list of chiefs which the European du Poinceau claimed he obtained from Heckwelder's papers. du Poinceau may just as likely have gotten the list of chiefs from Rafinesque's own recording.

Fourth, given Mede tradition keeping, there was every reason for Heckewelder and Rafinesque to have been given the same account.






 

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2008, 01:28:31 am »
  Archaeological research has shown 2 separate Proto-Algonquian migrations into the East. The first one came out of the Ohio Valley down to the Delaware Bay area and Delmarva Pen. then spread South during the Late Archaic-Early Woodland period (the Adena-Middlesex Culture). Trade florished on the East Coast and the Middlesex culture mingled with the local Piedmont Tradition ( Rossville-Piscataway) and then the Fox Creek Culture (historical association unknown -possibly Iroquoian) entered the Delaware Valley from North West New York to trade and settle.
   The Second Proto-Algonquian migration came straight down the coast from the North in the Middle Woodland Period. Trade suddenly stopped and local resources became the norm. The "mix and mingle" point was Southern P.A and Central New Jersey.
   The Southern Unami (Lenape) of Southernmost Part of New Jersey and Northern Delaware retained a Hunter-Gatherer Culture depending on wild rice sometimes gardening maygrass, sunflowers, and goosefoot ( a "carry over" from the Adena). They practiced "ossuary style" burials and used Chicasons (Houses for the Dead).
   Adena graves have been found all over Southern New Jersey. Mounds might have existed once in Gloucester, Cape May and Cumberland Counties.   
  The war with the Talligwi (Cherokee) was a mis-interpretation of a historical event.
   The Adena were a development of the "Glacier Kame Culture". They spoke Proto-Algonquian and eventually became the Central
(Great Lakes) and Southern Coastal Algonquian Culture. That is why Southern Coastal Algonquians have more in common in language and culture with the Anishanaabe (Ojibway) than with their Northern neighbors the Minsi and Mohican.
   Yurok and Wiyot on the California Coast is the most primitive Algic language and if you follow the path of the Glacier Lake Missoula Flood ( In theory, the Algonquian "Great Flood") a pattern will begin to emerge showing the Algonquian migration from the West Coast of the U.S. and the isolation of these 2 tribes. Glacier Lake Missoula would of also blocked any "ice free corridor" that existed at the time.
   The closest genetic relation to the Coastal Algonquian "Yellow Dogs"
(Wiisosa in Lenape) is the Southeast Asian wolf or the Dingo. We did not have any of the "Husky type" dogs that were brought in later migrations from Siberia. 
 .... and the Red Record is a fraud and does not match archaeology in any way shape or form.

   .........Where's Ray Whritenour when you need him.........
   
 

frederica

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2008, 03:58:04 am »
Ray had put it all up once, but when he left he took it all down.   But I do remember he said it was all a fraud, and one of the biggest disservice ever done to the Lenape'.

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2008, 06:16:38 am »
  Other than Chad Smith, yup!
  Ray could tear it top to bottom but he know's the language and history. I just know some of the archaeology.

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2008, 08:47:22 pm »
Here are several artifacts that show additional archaeological evidence that confirms use of imagery in the Walam Olum:
1. Piqua, Ohio figurines found by J.A. Rayner are also known as Ketika Figurines depicted by Carl Schuster in the Social Symbolism of Tribal Art. Curated at the Smithsonian.
2. Hohokam Palettes by Devin Alan White includes Turtle and snake - Falling from the Sky depiction.
3. Catlinite Turtle disc engraving from Van Meter State Historic site. Shows hole in Turtles Back.
4. Monks Mound artifacts including the Catlinite Objects found on the first terrace and the Palisade wall as Grondine Showed.
5. Birchbark scrolls described by Selwyn Dewdney in his book Sacred Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway confirm use of walam olum imagery.

See
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/walamolum.htm
Vince Barrows
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 01:10:16 am by BuboAhab »

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 11:12:53 pm »
  That just proves that Rafinesque had a extensive knowledge of Indian symbols.  ::)
Like I said. There were 2 separate Proto-Algonquian migrations into the Delaware Valley. The first one between 600 BC to 200 BC. The second one between AD 300 to AD 700.
  Also, I have photos and sketches of every piece rock and pottery ingraving in the Delaware Valley. None match anything in the Walum Olum.   

BuboAhab

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2008, 01:22:41 am »
How did Rafinesque know these symbols?
1. Piqua, Ohio Figurines were found in 1908
2. Hohokam Palettes first published in 2004 by Arizona State Museum
3. Never Published before - Photographed at University of Missouri, Eichenberger Cast 1966
4. Unearthed from the first terrace of monks mound in 1998
5. Published in 1975, numerous depictions found on birchbark scrolls that match Walam Olum.

How did he know the symbols when they were not yet unearthed? How did he also know the Amerindian Myths and legends behind them?

Vince Barrows

Offline NanticokePiney

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Re: The Red Record
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2008, 12:23:33 am »
How did Rafinesque know these symbols?
1. Piqua, Ohio Figurines were found in 1908
2. Hohokam Palettes first published in 2004 by Arizona State Museum
3. Never Published before - Photographed at University of Missouri, Eichenberger Cast 1966
4. Unearthed from the first terrace of monks mound in 1998
5. Published in 1975, numerous depictions found on birchbark scrolls that match Walam Olum.

How did he know the symbols when they were not yet unearthed? How did he also know the Amerindian Myths and legends behind them?

Vince Barrows

  Looking at your illustration comparisons I only see very common Amerind motifs found from Nova Scotia to Nevada. It proves nothing.
  There is no archaeological evidence that any event in the Walum Olum ever took place. The Adena were one of the original group of Proto-Algonquians who settled in the Delmarva and Lower Delaware Valley.
They settle peacefully and absorbed the Laurentian tradition cultures (there were several) that already resided here. The Fox Creek did the same. The Proto-Munsee came down from the North during the second wave.
  The Lenape of the pre-contact were independent villages or "farmstead communities" each with it's own customs, food gathering and gardening practices and ceremonies. They never reached the area "en-mass" nor did they probably ever believe they did.