Author Topic: The Red Record  (Read 177446 times)

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #345 on: April 05, 2011, 05:40:53 am »
Unfortunately, I can not read all of your posts as I type this reply.

I am glad that this topic was left under Research Needed, as there is no question that study of the Walum Olum controversy will continue to provide an excellent introduction to Lenape studies for years to come.

Recently it came to me that Oestreicher entirely missed what drove Rafinesque. Champollignon had just deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphic, and it appears that Rafinesque had a copy of Lenape hieroglyphs for years with no gloss.

Rafinesque was not motivated by money, as Oestriecher claimed.

However the continuing studies turn out, we can rely on the Heckewelder and Sutton records as paraphrases of Lenape medewak traditions with complete confidence, and I thank you for sharing here what you were taught.

I can understand entirely survivors shock; it is now a question of the paths forward, and keeping the con men from their victims, as we do here.

As far as excavations go, recall the memories of disease and disaster you were taught. Right now we're all here, and we can be sure that these will happen again, so it is very important to understand how they happened before.

For example, did the plague of 1275 come from the Norse, or was it an outbreak of Hanta virus from the SW? Or were there two plagues?

And what of the climate collapses?

In my own case, I was simply trying to learn how many times junk from space hit the Earth and killed people.

In my opinion, excavation does not automatically have to incur disrespect for the dead, though that is just my own opinion. But ensuring that respect will always require keeping a tight eye on how archaeologists proceed, as well as trying to remedy the results of their past mistakes.

Ni Ahwe, ouisi katet, paselo...

Offline Hair lady

  • Posts: 25
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #346 on: April 05, 2011, 10:17:33 am »
I can tell you this, for a fact, there are very strict rules about the dead. My mother always stressed this to me. She said once in the mothers arms that a person should NEVER under any circumstances be taken out of her arms.  Point being there is no respectful way to dig up the remains of our ancestors.

I believe there are reasons for this, that are both spiritual, and just common sence.  If someone say way back when in the 12 hundreds died of some unknown sickness, digging up thier body could have meant spreading the illness futhar. The spiritual reasons are things that I am not going to write about.

I myself am teaching my children the ways, so that they will have as much resepect for things like this as I do.  I hope you all realsie how painful it has been for the Lenape. How many times we have been put on and then taken off of the list of federaly reconised tribes, and how hard it is to see whole disscussions about us that take place in the past tense.

Just my opinion

 


Offline Hitakonanoolaxk

  • Posts: 3
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #347 on: May 26, 2011, 02:51:55 pm »
Hay!
     Hello to all those who may have an interest in the Walam Olum! I thank Ed Grondine for suggesting that this topic requires further consideration and research.

     Contrary to what Ostreicher assumes about Constantine Rafinesque, that he wrote the Walam Olum and that the whole thing was a hoax, I will herein present my position, that the Walam Olum is indeed a very real document and that Rafinesque should be vindicated of any assumptions that he made the whole thing up and engaged in a hoax of monumental proportions.
     Constantine Rafinesque was one of those rare breed of men who had many varied interests. In his own time he was unappreciated by his Scientific Peers because he held to many ideas that were beyond the status quo in Scientific Circles of the time, but he stuck to his guns and pursued his interests and thoughts no matter what others thought of him. He was shunned by the Scientific Community then, his papers all too often rejected from Science Journals of the time, and now to add further insult to this man of great Genius, Ostreicher and such wish to further reap shame upon the man after his death. What a shame! What a sham! What lengths some people will go to in seeking their doctorate degree!
     The truth of the matter is that if I wish to prove a thesis, I would be able to show all sorts of suppositions to prove my point or to show that my viewpoint is correct. I can show Rafinesque to be equally an upright individual of rare genius, who was very meticulous in his method and who gave credit to those from whence he gleaned his information. However, it is not proof. No one really knows but Rafinesque himself, all else is conjecture. So, each of us has to make up their mind as to what truth they accept, as neither view, pro or con can be absolutely proven. Thus I will present evidence to show that Rafinesque was not a hoaxer.Many of his views and ideas have been vindicated in recent times, contrary to the abuse reaped upon him in his lifetime by fellow Scientists, such as his pre-darwinistic assertions concerning plant species and their classification; and many today hold to his Bering Land Bridge theories. Read his Medical Botany, his study of fish in the Ohio river system, etc. Get to know the man before you lay judgement on him.
       

Offline Hitakonanoolaxk

  • Posts: 3
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #348 on: May 26, 2011, 04:05:03 pm »
I just received a copy of "Unmasking the Walam Olum' by Ostreicher in the bulletin of the Archaeological  Society of new Jersey/#49/1994:

     First thing I notice wrong: pg.4-5/ Wemi sohalawak yulik yuch aan/ wemi = all/ sohalawak = he causes them/ yulik = these/ yuch = well/ aan = to move(translation of Rafinesque). Ostreicher is puzzled by yuch = well. A mistranslation by Rafinesque.
     Ostreicher seizes upon Rafinesque's mistranslation of yuch =  well, which in Zeisberger's grammar means "well!"  Since yuch is an exclamatory expression therein, Ostreicher seizes upon the moment to show that this is proof that Rafinesque translated from English into Delaware! Ostreicher had a hard time finding the word yuch,but he obviously didn't look too hard as it is in Zeisberger's Spelling Books of 1776 & 1806, written Jucke(German J sounds like y), and in Britton's Dictionary on p.178 written as yucke, meaning "now". In Britton's dictionary, Rev. Albert Seqaqkind Anthony, has yuch as"now".
     So, with this rendering of yuch=now, the passage still makes sense " all he causes these now to move". Rafinesque made a mistranslation, so what?! It is just an assumption on Ostreicher's part that Rafinesque translated from English into Delaware. He obviously didn't have the Spelling Books or missed the fact that jucke=yucke/yuch.
He obviously didn't have Britton's dictionary as this was published later. If all he had was Zeisberger's grammar, of course he's going to see yuch =well.

Offline tree hugger

  • Posts: 25
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #349 on: May 17, 2015, 11:35:25 pm »
When will your translation of the Walam Olum be published?

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #350 on: May 21, 2015, 08:27:47 pm »
Hello Hair Lady -

It is a troubling matter to consider, and public conversation on it is not possible.

Given the density of native inhabitation of this land, there will be remains found.
Here in Ohio, remains are stumbled across constantly by residents in their everysay activities.

In the field that I work in, there will be remains found which were never properly interred in the first place.

Thus my current thinking is that remains should only be handled by those qualified to do autopsies, and then re-interred (or interred) properly.

As far as the present situation of the Lenape and Lenape descendants, may I suggest to you that you may find reading Vine DeLoria's introduction to "They Say the Wind is Red" to be of some comfort.

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #351 on: May 21, 2015, 11:20:08 pm »
Hi Hitakonanoolaxk -

It was my pleasure to defend the reputations of both C.S. Rafinesque and Frank Hibben.

I agree with you with the difficulties in knowing absolutely what occurred.

That said, I have particular problems with Oestriecher's version of Shawnee history and his denial of the use of pictographic writing by the Lenape medewak.

You may want to take a look at the new book on the archaeology of Greenville, Ohio. (I will be more specific about this book's title when search  services resume here.)

Aside from that, there were three divisions in the Lenape nation, and we have the mystery of the appearance of "Marksvillle" culture here  in Ohio.

Finally, although I have made mistakes, and probably will make more in the future, I'd like to mention that I did as well as I could.



Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #352 on: May 27, 2015, 04:37:11 pm »
The book is:

http://www.amazon.com/Archaeology-Artifacts-County-Elaine-Holzapfel/dp/images/B000CS95WE

I will not comment on it here, other than to advise you that if you are working the Rafinesque problem, you need to get hold of a copy.