Another stunning example of White Colonialism invading NDN space / culture clash (was intro from JJ

[JJ_laylay]

Hi! Thank you for welcoming me to your group :)

I'm a young punk woman and a queer weirdo, an artist and a sex worker in Portland, Oregon. I think New Age shamanism is annoying and sometimes goes into the really offensive. I also think it's sometimes just really funny, and I like to laugh; it helps me to live when all else makes it hard. I hope I connect with some like-minded people here. I hope the conversations are good anyway if I don't.

I'm from the Mississippi Delta. On my dad's side I come from French, Spanish, and German creoles, and my mom's/grandma's side I come from the Choctaw of Mississippi and Irish and French creoles. Most of my family is working poor or agrarian; I grew up partly with my grandma in the country near the Bogue Chitto. I'm of the woods more than of the city, but I also appreciate what the city has to offer. Portland has a lot to offer, even with the annoying gentrifying Portlandia stuff, so I'm here for now. It's also fun to see the looks on commodity-weirdos' faces when they see real weird and don't know what to do with it.

Since last year I've been part of a Shoshone/Lakota-led spirit dance that happens at a radical faerie sanctuary in Oregon. There are a lot of really sweet and genuine people among the faeries, at least at the community that happens around this sanctuary and dance. Good people and a good dance.

Bye for now and good things for ya'll,

Janey

[Defend the Sacred]

I think New Age shamanism is annoying and sometimes goes into the really offensive. I also think it's sometimes just really funny, and I like to laugh; it helps me to live when all else makes it hard. I hope I connect with some like-minded people here. I hope the conversations are good anyway if I don't.
...
Since last year I've been part of a Shoshone/Lakota-led spirit dance that happens at a radical faerie sanctuary in Oregon. There are a lot of really sweet and genuine people among the faeries, at least at the community that happens around this sanctuary and dance. Good people and a good dance.

This is an Indigenous-led, working forum of activists and cultural workers dedicated to stopping New Age "shamanism" and the cultural genocide it wreaks upon Indigenous communities, not a hangout for meeting people who support it.

If you are participating in a non-Native event that mixes alleged Shoshone and Lakota ways, even if the people leading it claim to be from these communities, this is in violation of the wishes of the spiritual leaders of those communities. It is common for outcasts, often criminals and other harmful people, who are no longer welcome among their people, to sell ceremony to non-Natives. Or to offer it for trade. That is where exploiters wind up - among the hippie and newage pretendians. You will find many examples of the harm these people do if you read the forum.

[Defend the Sacred]

If you actually have Choctaw heritage, and not just blood myths, and you are determined to follow Native ways, you need to see if those relatives will accept you, take you in and teach you. If none of the Choctaw tribes will claim you, it is not your right to claim to be Choctaw.

[educatedindian]

1. I think New Age shamanism is annoying and sometimes goes into the really offensive. I also think it's sometimes just really funny, and I like to laugh; it helps me to live when all else makes it hard. I hope I connect with some like-minded people here.

2. Since last year I've been part of a Shoshone/Lakota-led spirit dance that happens at a radical faerie sanctuary in Oregon. There are a lot of really sweet and genuine people among the faeries, at least at the community that happens around this sanctuary and dance. Good people and a good dance.

1. Annoying, laughable, and always offensive, not to mention destructive, colonialist, deeply and inherently racist, and outright spiritual genocide. The intent is to replace and destroy Native spirituality and people.

A question to ask is, why does it appeal to you? Since you know so little of your people's traditions (assuming your claim is true and not false, as almost all white southerner claims of NDN ancestry are trying to hide Black ancestry, usually from rape)....

What is appealing to it for you is likely its stereotypes. The whole intent of Nuage was to make it easy for whites to enjoy still believing in stereotypes when the civil rights and Red Power movements were at their strongest. IOW, it appeals to you for the same reason Blackface and minstrel shows appeal to many whites.

2. This thread is one you should read.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=695.0
The people ripped off may be nice, more likely naive, certainly ignorant of what they claim to admire. The leaders of that ceremony are likely con artists, unless they were deceived originally themselves. If so, they continue the cycle of abuse, much like child abusers were often abused themselves.

[Wakalopi14]

I imagine that your comment was made in a good way, with no harm intended, but unfortunately you do not understand what this site is about, so I will add my voice to those who are trying to educate you. As the name indicates, it is about exposing nuage frauds and plastic shamans, such as those "leading" what you refer to as a "Shoshone/Lakota-led spirit dance", which is a completely concocted "ceremony". I am only familiar with the Lakota Red Road, on which the mixing of Ceremonies is not done, so it is easy to see that this dance has nothing to do with Traditional Teachings, and if the "leaders" are benefiting in any way other than Spiritually (and it's clear that Spirituality has no connection to this dance), then again, it's fake. The misappropriation of any cultures Traditional Ways is stealing, whether there is financial gain or not, so I would ask that if you are truly interested in learning about anything connected to Native Spirituality, that you seek out true representatives, and perhaps look for a Two Spirit group in Portland. Maybe spend some time on a Rez doing some volunteer work, with a Native led group, or donate to Native organizations, like NARF or AICF. The Native community needs as many allies as possible, especially today with the Standing Rock Nation under attack and the pumkinheaded fuhrer "running" our country. What it doesn't need are more people supporting the enemies of Indian Country, and anybody ripping people off in the name of "spirituality" are committing cultural genocide. I do hope that you'll take what I and others have said in the manner in which it was said, understand the anger we all have towards those who commit fraud, and commit yourself to doing the right thing, no matter how good it feels to partake of fake ceremonies.
Mitakuye Oyasin

[Defend the Sacred]

Since it's been brought up, there are also exploiters and sexual predators out there leading fraudulent "Two Spirit" groups that welcome non-Natives (Two Spirit is only for Natives). Some are led by pretendians, others by sellouts. Some non-Native seekers, those who believe they have heritage, or even Native kids who grew up without a tribal community, have been severely harmed by these groups. Like with any harmful group... they will tell you you are special, and that they are making an exception to the usual "no non-Natives" rule, as long as you keep your participation a secret. And... as long as you put up with sexual abuse and don't report the abuser. This has happened to people of all orientations and identities, but as interest in Two Spirit becomes more of a thing, we are seeing more predators using that as a front to seek victims from the LGBTQ2S communities.

Another relevant thread on predators: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2225.0

[JJ_laylay]

Heeheehee! Oh mercy. Did I mention that I like to laugh? Because ya'll gave me some good ones. Thank you.

Since ya'll don't know Clyde, or the dance he does, or any of the other "elder"s associated with it, I can forgive this once your insulting words to those elders who are very dear to me. They would be [silly threat] except for your ignorance about them, and for the [personal attack].

I'm also willing to forgive the things you've said, Al, in light of the fact that you [personal attack], which does commonly cause [childish insult], like you have of my ancestors or friends. Under other [silly threat]. Btw I did read that thread you posted, and you should [personal attack, a bigot accusing others of bigotry].

Hey, is that you, Mari, here as DefendTheSacred? The smug self-seriousness and joyless, humorless tone is so familiar. If not ya'll should totally meet each other.

Since I have way more experience than I need with repressive, coercive, emotionally abusive cults already, I'm gonna leave ya'll to it. Should any [childish insult], I hope you welcome it.

Janey

[Sparks]

Since last year I've been part of a Shoshone/Lakota-led spirit dance that happens at a radical faerie sanctuary in Oregon.

This thread is one you should read. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=695.0

I had to do some googling to find out what all this is actually about, and found this informative:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Faeries
http://www.radfae.org/  —  http://www.radfae.org/sanctuaries.htm
http://nomenus.org  —  http://nomenus.org/about/

[Sparks]

Since it's been brought up, there are also exploiters and sexual predators out there leading fraudulent "Two Spirit" groups that welcome non-Natives (Two Spirit is only for Natives).

See first post in this thread for an example of how the "Radical Faeries" are not seen as "Two Spirit":

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2789.0

[ShadowDancer]

Interesting to see Clyde Hall's name mentioned yet again.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1558.msg9675#msg9675

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4071.msg34401#msg34401

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=4188.msg35659#msg35659

[Diana]

We don't have a thread for Clyde Hall....? Since this JJ person brought him to our attention again I think he deserves his own thread. It appears there's a lot of a lot of talk and postings by him and his patrons all over the internet. What do you y'all think? Lol.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana

[Defend the Sacred]

We don't have a thread for Clyde Hall....? Since this JJ person brought him to our attention again I think he deserves his own thread. It appears there's a lot of a lot of talk and postings by him and his patrons all over the internet. What do you y'all think? Lol.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana

Yeah, given what we've seen displayed above and in the links, might as well gather it all in a new thread. Go for it.

[Defend the Sacred]

Moved to etc.

Most of us, when we were young, thought we were "weird" and unique and shocking, and tried oh so hard to prove we were the newest and most special thing the world had ever seen. Many of us were offensive to our elders in our efforts to find ourselves. So, we get it. We know what that is like.

But what is not OK is the racism, the entitlement, the consumerism, the happy sociopathy, the degrading and spitting on Indigenous people and cultures. That is not acceptable from anyone, not even a small child. Those who respect no one and nothing will have a hard road. But we are in no way obligated to take abuse from nasty racist white kids. If you grow up and develop a conscience,  you can contact an admin and apologize. Until then, we don't have time for this. No one here deserves to be subjected to you. But thank you, JJ, for reminding us to consolidate the information on those who are misleading you and those like you. Best wishes and good luck at healing from this mental/spiritual infection you are suffering from.

[educatedindian]

Heeheehee! Oh mercy. Did I mention that I like to laugh? Because ya'll gave me some good ones. Thank you.

Since ya'll don't know Clyde, or the dance he does, or any of the other "elder"s associated with it, I can forgive this once your insulting words to those elders who are very dear to me. They would be [silly threat] except for your ignorance about them, and for the [personal attack].

I'm also willing to forgive the things you've said, Al, in light of the fact that you [personal attack], which does commonly cause [childish insult], like you have of my ancestors or friends. Under other [silly threat]. Btw I did read that thread you posted, and you should [personal attack, a bigot accusing others of bigotry].

Hey, is that you, Mari, here as DefendTheSacred? The smug self-seriousness and joyless, humorless tone is so familiar. If not ya'll should totally meet each other.

Since I have way more experience than I need with repressive, coercive, emotionally abusive cults already, I'm gonna leave ya'll to it. Should any [childish insult], I hope you welcome it.

Janey

I don't think we've ever had such a juvenile post. I've taught middle schoolers more mature.

What very young (at least emotionally) Ms J seems to suffer from, besides her admitted cult and abusive past, is the belief that white gays can't be exploitative, abusive, or bigoted themselves. Or that her alleged distant ancestry gets her a free pass on being an exploiter.

Yes, it's obvious your claimed ancestry is distant in that you know nothing about the traditions. Why would an alleged Choctaw go to a nonexistent "Shoshone Lakota ceremony"? Shoshone, Lakota, and Choctaw beliefs are all very different from each other.

As for the exploitation you're part of, I'll let actual two spirits tell you, ones who object to Clyde Hall's exploitation almost as much as his own people do.

--------
http://ne2ss.typepad.com/northeast_twospirit_socie/2006/09/is_there_a_rift.html
Tansi,
Perhaps the source of the rift of which you write comes from the fact that white people are, through treating Two Spirit traditions as up for grabs, trying to claim a culturally specific tradition and history surrounding spirituality & sexuality (i.e.: two spirit) as their own (that is, to colonize it) when it is not.

Two Spirit is not simply an indicator of "sexual orientation"; it is not an umbrella term---it has as much specificity and particularity as Cree, Saulteaux, Asini-pwat, Dine, Innu, Salish, Spokane, Tohono O'odham, et al all do. All of which contain their own discrete identities, separate from European identities.

The tension that you and the Elder you claim is "teaching" you choose to dismiss as irrelevant and born of the "fear" of Two Spirit people is actually born of something else entirely: respect for our Grandparents, for ourselves, for our traditions.

In our many diverse Indigenous communities there are many, many different traditions and yet among these societies there are threads of commonality that run through them all like iron ore through the deep stone of the earth. One of these threads is the practice of respect through stepping back.

This practice is something that the European-American community has yet to learn and would benefit from learning before all else.

If you truly understood and respected the Indigenous traditions and beliefs of the people you claim to be a "student" of then you would understand that this "rift" you write about (yet understand nothing of; perhaps you need to study harder) has about as much to do with your "prima facie racism" as it does with fear.

Do you know what colonization is? Let me tell you....colonization is when a person (or entity/polity) decides that the thing it wants, by virtue of that desire, belongs to him/her, it.

Your assumption that you can own and have a piece of my Two Spirit history just because you want to is no different from the colonial assumptions that drive manifest destiny.

Actions speak louder than words; the Two Spirit people have spoken and still you are deaf with a whiteman's deafness and insist on intruding where you are not wanted.

An Indigenous person, understanding the principle of stepping back, would accept this and would respect it by not insisting that they have a claim to a specific cultural and spiritual tradition just because they want it.

But then, you are not Indigenous and that makes all the difference in the world. It has nothing to do with race (a ridiculous European fallacy, this idea of "race"), but everything to do with ontological belief systems and soci-cultural cosmologies.
Ekosi,
nehi katawasisiw
pipikisis cree nation


I really want to thank Ekosi for the thoughtful and accurate response to the article about the "rift" between Indigenous two-spirit peoples and what I will simply call others. Within some of our cultures, there are even things that other people in the community are not suppose to know if they are not part of a specific society, kiva, etc. We as Native people know that this cultural diversification, even within our own nations, are a part of the differences on which balance depends. It is the natural order of things and it is respected. The definition of colonialism that is given really should answer the whole question. As Ekosi says, many white Americans believe that simply because they want something they are entitled to it and therefore those opposing it are "prejudice." Unfortunately, this is also a part of "liberal" American history and the whole idea of a melting pot. We are not all suppose to be the same. We are all different. This is not a bad thing. Again, the universe is meant to be diverse, and respect for that diversity is balance. The ease with which the dominant culture destroy ecological diversity is evidence that this idea is not respected. But, one would hope, that people want to be our relatives or allies and they are different, have a different history, different languages, different cultural experiences, they could embrace that diversity without having to consume it. Why do white people (and I'm sorry, but it is mostly white people) insist upon being a part of it, of making it there own? Like Ekosi states, if Mr. Young was being truly taught about Indigenous traditions, one lesson should have been to respect the boundaries established by our cultures.
Pila maya yelo
Mitakuye Oyasin
Tetuwan Okshila
Kent Lebsock

[Sparks]

We don't have a thread for Clyde Hall....? Since this JJ person brought him to our attention again I think he deserves his own thread. It appears there's a lot of a lot of talk and postings by him and his patrons all over the internet. What do you y'all think? Lol. [...]

Yeah, given what we've seen displayed above and in the links, might as well gather it all in a new thread. Go for it.

That new thread is here: Clyde Hall - Naraya Cultural Preservation Council.