Author Topic: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings  (Read 7971 times)

Offline karen mica

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:02:45 am »
 "It sucks that the information is so twisted everywhere... bit same when looking the roots of my own culture, all the christianity and romantic as well as down grading the original beliefs and culture has wiped so much of it off that it is hard to find the real thing behind it.">>>>>>>>>>>>>



I think it is very much the same here.
For instance, in this area where I live in central Massachusetts there are rocks placed together in such a way that they form definite turtle shapes, they are throughout the woods here, and some are "extremely huge" there is no way they could have been "put together" without the use of a crane or some other heavy machinery because some of these rocks weigh tons.

Yet there they are, just sitting there as they have since ancient times and no one knows why they are there, or who put them there!   

In fact only a very few people "even know" that they are there.   

There is another quite interesting "monument" very near here which consists of a very large rock, perched upon a flat platform, with a distinct face carved into the end overlooking a valley.

In front of this rock is kind of small stone bench, one assumes this was used as a seat, but there is a most usual feature...if one were to sit on this little bench one could place his head up into a hollow space, carved out, up inside the portion of the rock containing the face! 

Why, or what was the purpose of this?  Who knows. 

In other places you can find rocks with very unusual "faces" actually contained within them yet again, how this was done, or why it was done is lost to time. 

Yes, there are many stories remaining, and many ceremonies remaining.

But the most useful "ancient knowledge" or the actual "technology" that made these things a part of everyday life is sadly missing and is for the most part forgotten, even by the native peoples today. 

And this is only my own thought, but the sense I have gotten when visiting such stones is that there once was a "global civilization" that knew all the secrets of working with rock that we don`t understand today, and working with rock from around the same time, does seems to have been a global phenomena and not something unknown in any part of the world.

Yet the sense is always too, that the native people were the last to lose this knowledge and now only the stones themselves, remember their secrets.

 



 





Offline earthw7

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 02:12:00 pm »
what!!!! excuse me we are still here and we know the stories of our land for thousand of years.
In Spirit

Offline Smart Mule

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 03:00:24 pm »




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I think it is very much the same here.
For instance, in this area where I live in central Massachusetts there are rocks placed together in such a way that they form definite turtle shapes, they are throughout the woods here, and some are "extremely huge" there is no way they could have been "put together" without the use of a crane or some other heavy machinery because some of these rocks weigh tons.

If you are talking about the formations in the Carlisle area I can easily explain the unexplainable for you.  The Carlisle area is geologically known as a glacial dump area.  Large boulders were unceremoniously dump as glaciers receded.  Likeliest scenario, the Nashoba Peoples noticed the similarities between these formations and things in their natural world and shaped them additionally to more fully replicate the turtles.  FYI, directly behind the turtle at Great Brook Farm there is a rabbit :)

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Yet there they are, just sitting there as they have since ancient times and no one knows why they are there, or who put them there!

Glaciers put them there, the Nashoba helped. 

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In fact only a very few people "even know" that they are there.

They were in Yankee Magazine.

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There is another quite interesting "monument" very near here which consists of a very large rock, perched upon a flat platform, with a distinct face carved into the end overlooking a valley.

In front of this rock is kind of small stone bench, one assumes this was used as a seat, but there is a most usual feature...if one were to sit on this little bench one could place his head up into a hollow space, carved out, up inside the portion of the rock containing the face!

Artifacts found in this area indicate it was likely a ceremonial site.  The hollow space was for offerings.  There are similar offering structures, minus the face with openings for offerings.  These were all still being used well into colonial times, specifically in the Westford area where the Shakers offered the Nashoba protection.

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Why, or what was the purpose of this?  Who knows.

The purpose was for offerings and ceremony.  Lots of people know or at least come very close to knowing due to research.  As I said, some of there sites were still being used well into the colonial period.

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In other places you can find rocks with very unusual "faces" actually contained within them yet again, how this was done, or why it was done is lost to time.

It was done by picting.  There are pictographs all over New England.

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Yes, there are many stories remaining, and many ceremonies remaining.

Of course there are.

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But the most useful "ancient knowledge" or the actual "technology" that made these things a part of everyday life is sadly missing and is for the most part forgotten, even by the native peoples today. 

This is, with regard to New England, simply not true.

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And this is only my own thought, but the sense I have gotten when visiting such stones is that there once was a "global civilization" that knew all the secrets of working with rock that we don`t understand today, and working with rock from around the same time, does seems to have been a global phenomena and not something unknown in any part of the world.

I personally don’t buy in to the global civilization mindset.  While working with stone occurred on many continents, while there may be similarities, there are also differences.  Point development occurred globally but differently.  It does not mean that we all knew each other. Spinning and weaving occurred globally and although the finished product was similar, it turned out cloth, the manner in which it was done varied greatly.

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Yet the sense is always too, that the native people were the last to lose this knowledge and now only the stones themselves, remember their secrets.

Are you sure about that?  Native meaning who?  Native to the US or Native to what ever particular area stone has been used in construction?

Offline Superdog

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 05:42:12 pm »

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But the most useful "ancient knowledge" or the actual "technology" that made these things a part of everyday life is sadly missing and is for the most part forgotten, even by the native peoples today. 

This is, with regard to New England, simply not true.



Agreement there.
What you have is a mystified idea of these formations.  Be careful of that, it's a natural human behavior to mystify things not understood and give a familiar meaning to it based on your own life history.  That's how stereotypes develop (not saying you're stereotyping Saga, it's just a parallel).

The technology and methodology surrounding your observations is actually well known to Natives and academics in the field.  However, sometimes their conclusions don't always match up, but there is plenty of oral history to back this all up.

Pictographs are also very common in New England.  There's a site in Maine that has plenty of them hidden all over the shoreline.  The youngest of which is a pictograph of a ship.

Superdog

Offline Saga

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2010, 06:12:06 pm »
The quote was actually from Karen Mica originally. :)

Pictographs are actually common in Finland too... and if I remember correctly the same picture of some sort of "sun wheel" has been found from USA pictographs or carvings or something that is all over Finland and Scandinavia.

It is quite interesting to think why things are done, or who has done them. :) Academics have sometimes very narrow views on thing in my point of view, they usually are so focused on their own area of studies only.

For example in Scandinavia archeologists are wondering (in some news article) why old stone age/iron age items are found in newer age graves... I don't know if I am on the right track or not, but at least in Finland the old stone axes and spearheads and stuff were very powerful magical objects to people, so they gathered them for protection and stuff even in historical age, before the actual archeology started... It is all around the folklore. Sometimes things like this could be taken in when trying to explain something, but ofc, like Superdog there said, mystifying has it's problems. :)

In my country the problem seems to be that we don't really think much of our own culture, so why to be interested in it. Or at least that was the problem in the past, when there still was more information available. Thinking that I live in the country that has or at least had probably richest folklore and oral tradition in Europe... and we have national epos written from the folk poetry and tons of old songs and "spells" and beliefs gathered, one could think that we should appreciate what we have... People are only now little bit starting to find their roots here, the last traces of old traditions only started to vanish somewhere in the 1800s or so, but all the studies written are the kind where "true" christians talk about these simple people who do stupid things... Think it is that way in most places when the original faiths and beliefs are run over.

Offline karen mica

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2010, 06:54:04 pm »
Interesting explanation Sky, but no, I am not speaking of the Carlise area, but rather the central region of Massachusetts.

This area is not far east of the Quabbin Reservoir. ( I have always wondered why they chose that particular area to flood and keep underwater, could these strange artifacts in the immediate area have had anything to do with that? ) And the fact that so few know about these remaining "artifacts" is the only reason they have survived this long, no doubt.

But no, these are not glacial dump, drag,or deposit, these are man made there is no doubt about that.  

Also, I can not agree with the hollow space in the "monument"  having been a place for offerings.
It simply would not work that way. The hollow itself is a kind of "bee hive shaped" opening directly overhead as one sits on the stone bench, there is nothing to hold any offering up, in there.  
It truly appears as though it was only meant to accommodate the head of a "human" sitting on the bench!

I should add too, that the internal structure of the entire rock itself has been hollowed out, and there is a shape very much like a long tube, that runs the whole length from front to rear inside this rock.

It is a very peculiar "artifact" and I have no explanation for it, nor do I know of a single Abenaki or Nipmuck explanation, for it either.  

And no, I am not speaking of pictographs, petrographic renditions, or any sort of stone pecking techniques in relation to these particular pictures in the rocks.

To people who have not seen them, this will sound silly but, the pictures I am speaking about are more like  "modern day" photographs within the natural structure of the rock itself, as opposed to having been artificially placed upon the rock, as if it were simply an artists canvas to be painted on. These are not stick type drawings, symbols, or anything along those lines, these are "real life" pictures or the actual portraits of what appear to have been "living people" at the time they somehow got "into" solid rock!  

Can`t explain that either, and our remaining stories do not account for any of these things...but yes, the native presence appears to have been the last of those who may have actually "utilized" these places. In my opinion anyway.

 

 


 

 

Offline Smart Mule

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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2010, 07:40:19 pm »
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Interesting explanation Sky, but no, I am not speaking of the Carlise area, but rather the central region of Massachusetts.

This area is not far east of the Quabbin Reservoir. ( I have always wondered why they chose that particular area to flood and keep underwater, could these strange artifacts in the immediate area have had anything to do with that? ) And the fact that so few know about these remaining "artifacts" is the only reason they have survived this long, no doubt.

I know that area well.  I’ve hiked and explored most of the area and I think I know where you are talking about.  The area was flooded not because it contained artifact, but because of its location.  Do you know what Quabbin is loosly derived from?  Hint – it is from Loup-A Algonquin dialect.

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But no, these are not glacial dump, drag,or deposit, these are man made there is no doubt about that.

Are you aware of the geological make up of the are, lets say, of Ware and Barre for example?

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Also, I can not agree with the hollow space in the "monument"  having been a place for offerings.
It simply would not work that way. The hollow itself is a kind of "bee hive shaped" opening directly overhead as one sits on the stone bench, there is nothing to hold any offering up, in there. 
It truly appears as though it was only meant to accommodate the head of a "human" sitting on the bench!

There are a number of beehive constructions in the area around the Quabbin. 

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I should add too, that the internal structure of the entire rock itself has been hollowed out, and there is a shape very much like a long tube, that runs the whole length from front to rear inside this rock.

Interesting.

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It is a very peculiar "artifact" and I have no explanation for it, nor do I know of a single Abenaki or Nipmuck explanation, for it either.
There would not likely be an Abenaki explanation, as the Abenaki came out this way to trade.  Are you sure there is no Nipmuc explanation?  Absolutely positive?  Do you know if the ‘artifact’ is pre or post-colonial?  What other stone structures or perhaps utilitarian artifacts are there in the area?

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And no, I am not speaking of pictographs, petrographic renditions, or any sort of stone pecking techniques in relation to these particular pictures in the rocks.

Now that I am more familiar with the area you are talking about I would have to agree.

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To people who have not seen them, this will sound silly but, the pictures I am speaking about are more like  "modern day" photographs within the natural structure of the rock itself, as opposed to having been artificially placed upon the rock, as if it were simply an artists canvas to be painted on. These are not stick type drawings, symbols, or anything along those lines, these are "real life" pictures or the actual portraits of what appear to have been "living people" at the time they somehow got "into" solid rock! 

Can`t explain that either, and our remaining stories do not account for any of these things...but yes, the native presence appears to have been the last of those who may have actually "utilized" these places. In my opinion anyway.

I am not saying that you don’t see things in the surface of the stones but I have a hard time believing there are ‘pictures’.  I just don’t see Indian peoples getting sucked into the rock.

Offline karen mica

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Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2010, 09:29:45 pm »
Lol, I don`t think native people got sucked into solid rock either!
But I do find it curious, that those pictures are in there.

Quabbin is the place of many waters. The Swift River being a major source.

This is my "backyard".

I know of only one "bee hive" mound in the area and it is within the Reservoir itself.

It is mostly destroyed now, because hunters and bottle diggers found it and tore it apart.

There have been thousands and thousands of indian "artifacts" taken off the land there.

Most are in the "private collections" of the MDC police and employees, who were assigned to "protect" the area, from the general public.

The turtles in this area are way beyond pre colonial, they are ancient.

There is a burial ground as well.

But this is protected on "private property" and will never be revealed.

If no one minds, I can put up a few pictures of the "local" turtles and of the monument, with a link to them and you can see for yourselves what I am talking about here.

 

 

 

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2010, 10:14:10 pm »
There are a number of beehive constructions in the area around the Quabbin.

Yes, I've been inside one of them, and seen a couple others from the outside. None of them are within the reservoir. They are pretty well-known to the people in this area, though we don't publicize their locations so they won't get messed with. To my eye, they are very much like the stone, corbeled, beehive huts built in Ireland in the early Christian period, which are in turn very much like older Irish structures from the pre-Christian eras. All are very well documented. We've discussed these New England stone structures here on NAFPS a few times. The main theory about the New England structures, with which I concur, is that they were built by fairly early Irish immigrants who came in the usual and well-known waves of immigrations.

There are only so many ways to build with stone. Or carve it. I don't believe in an Ancient Global Culture of Stoneworkers, just regular people the world over meeting basic human needs with the materials and tools at hand. I think it's our modern era, where we now have global communication, that makes people forget how isolated most cultures were in antiquity.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:18:37 pm by Kathryn NicDhàna »

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2010, 11:25:21 pm »
Lol, I don`t think native people got sucked into solid rock either!
But I do find it curious, that those pictures are in there.

I’d have to see the pictures to know what you are talking about.  I haven’t noticed anything like that when doing field work or simply exploring.

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Quabbin is the place of many waters. The Swift River being a major source.

That’s exactly why they built the Quabbin where they did :)

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This is my "backyard".

I know of only one "bee hive" mound in the area and it is within the Reservoir itself.

It is mostly destroyed now, because hunters and bottle diggers found it and tore it apart.

There are actually quite a few.  Well, five that I know of.   They are located between Barre and Hardwick.  I think I know of the one you are specifically talking about.

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There have been thousands and thousands of indian "artifacts" taken off the land there.

Most are in the "private collections" of the MDC police and employees, who were assigned to "protect" the area, from the general public.

Unfortunately this happens all over Indian Country as well as with other cultures.  What kinds of artifacts?  Were they points or something else?  If they were something else and you know they ended up in the hands of private individuals you need to contact Brona Simon.

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The turtles in this area are way beyond pre colonial, they are ancient.

The turtles around Carlisle and Littleton are as well.  If you’ve never been to the turtle at Carlisle it is amazing.  So is the turtle mound in Andover.

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There is a burial ground as well.

But this is protected on "private property" and will never be revealed.

Even if the burial is on private property it should be protected.  It doesn’t have to be publicized, the property just needs to be designated conservation land so it can’t be built on.

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If no one minds, I can put up a few pictures of the "local" turtles and of the monument, with a link to them and you can see for yourselves what I am talking about here.

I don’t know that it would be a good idea to post them, but I would love to see them.  It would be interesting to see how they correlate with the other turtles scattered over New England.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 11:32:11 pm by sky »

Offline karen mica

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2010, 11:33:16 pm »
There most certainly was one within the reservoir.
There may be others but you won`t find them walking the road.

It was straight back in the woods behind Richards Ledges.
Walking the dirt road toward the Ledges you would go left, up a hill and into the woods.
I used to ride my horse all through the woods there, staying well away from the road, and the MDC.
The last time I visted the area, the "mound" was completly destroyed and there was evidence of "bottle diggers" along a stone wall there.
I never went inside when it was intact. Never even tried to look in.

Offline karen mica

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 11:42:24 pm »
Sky, if you`d like I can PM you with a link.
I have just posted some of the pictures to a blog.
Since there are no directions to any of these sites, I don`t think posting the pic`s would hurt anything.

Maybe some of these area`s will be familiar to you.

Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2010, 11:47:05 pm »
I would like to see the pictures. 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline karen mica

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2010, 12:03:39 am »
ok, I will just put a link, whom ever wants to have a look, feel free.
I hope it works for you, if not let me know... it is "untested" as yet.
The Pictures should be clickable to enlarge.

http://turtlesinthewoods.blogspot.com/


Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Rock Formations & Rock Carvings
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2010, 01:38:03 am »
There most certainly was one within the reservoir.
[...]
It was straight back in the woods there

Ah, I thought you meant it was in the water; that it had been submerged when they flooded the valley. I haven't seen one of those, but I haven't been under the waters of the Quabbin.  :)

I agree that we should not post directions to these sites. IMHO, it's OK to have closeup pictures of them, but I'd avoid any identifying details that could lead someone there.