Author Topic: Stefan Klemenc /Neil Greenwood  (Read 25494 times)

Leonard

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Klemenc's tangents from other threads
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2008, 10:57:05 pm »
... so, if I write a book about China and the beliefs of your people, even though I have never been to your country and have never met your people - would my book and 'spiritual' conclusions be valid ? ...

... I think this is what the 'native american' people object to - some people in Europe and in America who have never been on a 'reservation' and have never spoken to these people to write books explaining the 'indians' and performing ceremony that is not theirs for profit - I think that this is the problem and the objection here. ...

Leonard.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 11:11:43 pm by Leonard »

Offline Sword of Zilu

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2008, 02:46:20 am »
Dear Neil Greenwood,

Why do you even defend yourself in front of these people? [Insults delelted.]

"Prayers and war are the most important things of the state." In ancient China, shamans who failed their missions were executed. Even Great Yu's father Gun was executed when he failed to control the flood.

Efficacy is the sole proof of spirituality. Teachers, traditions, and scriptural authorities - none can confer the recognition of the gods.

I have yet to meet a reconstructionist who can call forth a single drop of rain. I have yet to meet a scholar who can expel the smallest evil spirit.

Conversely, I have met many Westerners who can divine the future using Yijing with miraculous precision. And they can't speak a word of Chinese. (In fact, I know of one German Singaporean who used Feng Shui to improve radically his local political scene.)

When spirituality disappears, people grasp onto traditions.[Insults deleted.]

When something is true, it is true anywhere, anytime, and for any person. If a technique works, it works for all people. (In the same way chemistry is universal. In the same way automobiles are universal.) Traditions and heritages are irrelevant.

I have faith in you, Neil, as a great shaman. Your work has helped innumerable people. Your writings have certainly helped me. Because they are real. Your writings are real, because they derive from real experience and real practice, instead of speculations built on incomplete traditions and distorted scriptures.

The following is from another post, which was just locked, but I would like to reply anyway. It demonstrates how different peoples view their cultures.

Quote
... so, if I write a book about China and the beliefs of your people, even though I have never been to your country and have never met your people - would my book and 'spiritual' conclusions be valid ? ...

... I think this is what the 'native american' people object to - some people in Europe and in America who have never been on a 'reservation' and have never spoken to these people to write books explaining the 'indians' and performing ceremony that is not theirs for profit - I think that this is the problem and the objection here. ...

Leonard.

I understand your objection to people who only care about money. But I have no objection to non-Chinese people adopting Chinese symbolisms, gods, and rituals. In fact, I very much encourage it. Most Chinese people would too. It would be a point of national pride. (Just as French people export French culture everywhere.) This is the difference between a vibrant, living tradition, and a dead, "scholarly" reconstructionism.

Actually, many popular Korean, Vietnamese, and Japanese gods were originally Chinese gods. But oftentimes, they have radically different features and cults in their adopted countries. The same with Chinese festivals.

Furthermore, true traditionalists do not care about traditions. Instead, they care about efficacy. For instance, can you imagine Sarangerel saying, "Oh my! I can't use mirrors, because I am Buryat, whereas mirrors come from China. I can't do divination either, because my divination uses coins, which come from China."

Actually, Sarangerel's book advised the use of Tarot cards and regular playing cards for divination. I doubt anyone on this board can claim to be more traditionalist than Sarangerel. We should learn from her open-mindedness and willingness to innovate.

[Al's note: Debate is fine, but you don't help yourself or anyone else by being immature.]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 04:15:44 pm by educatedindian »

Offline Greenwood

  • Posts: 24
Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2008, 05:50:07 pm »
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make any sense to help or even to discuss with persons actively involved on this board. Obviously insults are being deleted as long as they originated from peoples "under attack" here - the others are being ignored. Exploitation is something which no one spiritual can accept which was the reason why I remained here in spite of continuing flamings against me and a consequent lack of even the attempt of thinking that there are some big mistakes done judging my person here in the mentioned way.

Sarangarel respected me as a shaman years ago, when Tengerism was not even being heard of anywhere in the WWW. The same for many Tuvinean shamans and even Natives from N-America who attended my dance were pleased and far away from labeling me Exploiter. I am respected and interviewed frequently by scientists of various faculties, among them Parapsychologists and Cultural Anthropologists being one of the handful of genuine german "neoshamans" who is being accepted as such.

It is a pity that Native interests are being crossed by non-Natives being "More holy then the Pope" - obviously it is in several peoples mind here that I have to be a Fraud or Plastic, Misusing anything and such. Note that not even ONE Native from the Andes appeared and blamed me for anything, since 1998 - blamings come from Whites and some North-Americans only here. None of them have the right of doing this in fact. The ridiculous blaming yesterday I can only laugh at. Face the fact: you lost one who has enough influence in Germany that real Plastics avoid me and even flame against me.

EducatedIndian: you wrote that I have to learn much. That what I have learned here is quite surely not that what you had in mind. You can thank your nice users here for that. I do not name them - they are knowing exactly who I am having in mind. I wish you and anyone of the FirstNations in the US that you can heal your wounds done by the White Intruders and still hurting your heritage. I really doubt that this can be achieved by Blacklists or Fraudlists at all. Those who should read them do not even know them or can read english at all (at least here in Germany).

What I learned is that your fight is having sense and meaning which I can understand but that some here have much to learn regarding the conceptions of "misuse" - a kind of witch-hunt was attempted here targeting on my person, hurting me much. I never forget that and those who initiated this hunt against me should note that they better keep out of my way (I know exactly whom I have to blame for this). It is a pity for your ideals what have happened here. You, who are not even Natives of any indigene Nation, have lost your face.

Delete my account. We have no further business with each other anymore. The threads I participated are archived for possible further useage.

"Look into your past to forecast your future." (118. Logomachy of Zos)

Over and out.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 05:51:40 pm by Greenwood »
Dwn-'nwj - "He who unfolds two wings": Himmiherrgotzaggramentzefixallelujamilextamarschscheissglumpfaregtz!

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2008, 11:38:29 am »
I have come to the conclusion that it does not make any sense to help or even to discuss with persons actively involved on this board...Face the fact: you lost one who has enough influence in Germany that real Plastics avoid me and even flame against me.

With friends like you

Quote
But then I saw a Video of the Aymara, showing a traditional Condor Dance. Well, I was really shocked, because they used complete, but deteriorated, wings of the Andean Condor. I felt the rage and sorrow of Apu Kuntur during watching this Video. Although I know and respect the folcloristic traditions of the Indigenos in South America I do not have to love them: I am no friend of those, who slaughteres the Andean Condor for show-effects, even if they are Indigenos of South America.

who needs enemies?

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/south/cultures/aymara.html
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 08:17:56 am by Barnaby_McEwan »

frederica

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 09:54:52 pm »
And all this time I thought the Condor was a protected bird, maybe it's just the California Condor.

Leonard

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 11:34:50 pm »
Yeah,  we all need 'protection' - but please - with out all of the 'bulldust' (too much dust in the air makes everyone see poorly; not see anything).

Leonard.

frederica

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2008, 11:49:54 pm »
What? Sorry don't get that.

Leonard

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2008, 03:45:06 am »
We all seek to find the 'truth' (hopefully). Most of what I have seen on many web-sites professing to tell the truth of things are like someone who comes upon a clear stream and muddies up the water so much that no one can see anything. This is what I was trying to say. I am only trying to find a clear stream of water that has not been disturbed by someone not trying to cloud the water. Maybe I seek in vain I do not know.

Leonard.

<edit>

I am using this 'fraud and plastic shaman' - web site to 'clear' a lot of 'baggage' from my split/white/indian child hood - fake 'christianity' - 'wicca/pagan' - and all of the other things of 'bulldust' that I have come across in my search for authentic spirituality.

I like to quote from a statement made by the 'very' late President Lyndon B. Johnson - " ... boys, I might not know much - but, I know 'chicken shit' from 'chicken salad' ... "

... maybe now 'Leonard' can find 'peace' within him-self - we shall see ...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 04:16:43 am by Leonard »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2008, 08:18:29 am »
More of Klemenc's racism. He posted this on his forum yesterday, referring to this forum:

Quote
Reminds me on one friend I have, which is nearly blind. He is a pipe-carrier who actually lives this title - much better then many Natives, I am sure of that. Also I know many grounded and realistic people who keep the old dances here in Germany so that Natives from over there come here to learn their own dances again.

frederica

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2008, 07:30:09 pm »
Leonard,  Well, it you look at the photos posted above it clearly shows he is using some type of regalia. I do not know if there are real Condor feathers or not. But it is a protected bird here. Of course they may be fake, ie Turkey feathers. You have to register with Wildlife here just to get Eagle feathers and that can take a life time. I don't know hat the rules are in Europe, but I find it interesting.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 07:42:48 pm by frederica »

Leonard

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2008, 08:28:01 pm »
Oh, OK - I see what you are saying. I watched the video clip at the very top of this thread and the feathers do appear to be from some sort of a very large bird. The screen resolution is not too clear and I am not an ornithologist and he claims to be in a trance and not responsible for what he is doing in the dance, so what can I add to this discussion ?

It is just that I have a keen interest in authentic movement of spirituality and any authentic manifestation of spirit. I do agree with the position of this forum that no one has the right to appropriate or plagiarize any other people or any other system of belief or spirituality. It would be like me pretending to be the 'pope' or a 'rabbi' when I have no right and it is not within my own culture or traditions. I do not think it would be right for me to pretend to be the 'pope' and claim that I had the right to do so because of 'religious freedom'.

I am beginning to wonder if anything is true. Perhaps spirituality is simply some sort of sociological artifact of all human culture; a diary of sorts and commentary on the human condition of all cultures and all time of the human experience on planet earth.

Leonard.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 11:26:19 pm by Leonard »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2008, 09:55:24 pm »
Leonard, Klemenc himself says in his first post in this thread where he got the feathers from.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2008, 11:34:52 pm »
More of Klemenc's racism. He posted this on his forum yesterday, referring to this forum <snip>

And also, this:

Quote
my version of Vulture-Shamanism.

He's finally found his True Shameonick Name: Culture Vulture.


Leonard

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Re: Stefan Klemenc/Neil Greenwood
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2008, 01:21:43 am »
... although I must admit that is a pretty good one  :P ...

Your comment prompted me to consider symbolic content. On another post, someone had made the claim that coyotes come up to be tickled on the tummy and 'educatedindian' pointed out that coyote is a 'trickster' within that context - that gave me pause to think about that one.

Weymouth New Testament
Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures flock together.

Leonard.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 05:31:07 pm by Defend the Sacred »

Offline Sparks

  • Posts: 786
Re: Stefan Klemenc / Neil Greenwood
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2019, 07:50:32 pm »
Stefan Klemenc AKA Neil Greenwood last posted on January 21, 2008, and the last time he signed in to the forum was on January 27, 2009. See http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=820.

I often reopen old topics when I discover that the person(s) discussed are still as active as ever out there, even if the NAFPS discussions ended ten or more years ago, which was the case this time.

His comprehensive website has survived those eleven years since then: http://www.kondor.de/.