Author Topic: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka  (Read 56901 times)

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2008, 08:53:37 pm »
Native Indians, who visit Poland, say something different than you, AFAIK.

Of course they do: money is at stake. The question is what standing do those people have back home? None, I expect.

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People who'd been visiting native Indians in U.S. and then went back to Poland, say something different than you.

Which Indians and what is their position in their own communities? I'm English but I can't teach anyone how to conduct an Anglican communion service.

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Even more, in case of many different activities: joga, martial arts, zen meditation... and many more, this worked pretty well. Things that were taught by reliable teachers happened to be ok with real teachings done by "original" native teachers (e.g. japanese sword masters, Hindu joga teachers...).   I hope you get my point.

It's interesting that you mention martial arts: the thing is, no one in Asia is hurt by Westerners practicing arts which are mostly sports, ways to keep safe, and ways of improving one's health. Even the overtly spiritual arts, like aikido, are emphatically for anyone anywhere to learn. Aikido's originator, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei, refused to teach his art to non-Japanese students before WW2. After the war he had a change of heart and hoped that aikido would spread peace through the world. If there are Japaneses aikido students or other martial artists who disagree with that decision they have kept their objections private. The same is true for judo, karate, tae kwon do, etc.

It is not true with Indian religions: at the very least you must be part of an Indian community and know the language. You cannot just go and practice once a week at a gym.

Offline epablito

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2008, 09:31:52 pm »
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Of course they do: money is at stake.

Money is not important I think: I've never heard that anyone required really big money for such workshops and even then Polish can't pay as much as U.S. citizens or e.g. U.K. citizens. No point in coming to Poland just to get a few bucks to cover travel costs.

I've personally never paid a single coin to enter sweatlodge.

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Which Indians and what is their position in their own communities?

Of course even if I give you names of them (and I don't want to give you another "fraud" target right now) I can't say much about their position in their own communities.

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It's interesting that you mention martial arts: the thing is, no one in Asia is hurt by Westerners practicing arts which are mostly sports, ways to keep safe, and ways of improving one's health. Even the overtly spiritual arts, like aikido, are emphatically for anyone anywhere to learn.

That's right. If this attitude (open) is true for many activities (even spiritual) so it was taken as true for native Indian techniques. Even if,  as I mentioned, Indian sweat lodge was at most technical base for recreation of our own sweatlodge purifcation ceremony. At least as I've seen this.

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2008, 09:47:26 pm »
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Of course they do: money is at stake.

Money is not important I think: I've never heard that anyone required really big money for such workshops and even then Polish can't pay as much as U.S. citizens or e.g. U.K. citizens.

Your friend Jozwiak says that the subject of this thread charged $115 US for his "seminar". That is not small change for most people in the US and the UK.

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I've personally never paid a single coin to enter sweatlodge.

Oh, now it's a sweatlodge again - not a sauna or a bania.

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I can't say much about their position in their own communities.

Then there is absolutely no way for you to tell whether they are reliable.

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If this attitude (open) is true for many activities (even spiritual) so it was taken as true for native Indian techniques.

Only by people who have never heard what Indians without a stake in this exploitation have to say about it. Now you have heard. You can continue to minimise, rationalise, and deny or you can listen to Indians for a change.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 09:50:33 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline Freija

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2008, 09:56:38 pm »

Native Indians, who visit Poland, say something different than you, AFAIK.
People who visit Poland and claim to be allowed to teach sweatlodge say something different than you.
People who'd been visiting native Indians in U.S. and then went back to Poland, say something different than you.


....and all these people say something different to what is stated in the proclamation, don´t they? 

If you believe them instead of the protocols handed down from generations back, then I have another question:

What is your opinion about "the inner circle" of Lakota bundlekeepers and Elders, not to mention the Keeper of the Pipe, getting it so totally wrong? Is it incompetence, do you think?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 10:07:27 pm by Freija »

Offline earthw7

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2008, 12:06:54 am »
People just don't want to understand that some of our own people are corrupt and will go against our people wishes. If you read the proclaimation it states that No white people are to do our ceremonies, sweat lodges or sun dances. If you read it ask for those of you who took our pipes to please return them. It is a matter of respect that you don't seem to have. I know of melvin gray bears doing though out his life i am sorry that this was done. I can understand how you would think that you are right by listen to these guy who travel to Europe but they are not right.
abuse is abuse no matter what claim you make.
In Spirit

Offline epablito

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2008, 02:10:28 pm »
/../ It is a matter of respect that you don't seem to have./../I can understand how you would think that you are right by listen to these guy who travel to Europe but they are not right.
abuse is abuse no matter what claim you make.

It's easy to say that I have no respect - it's easier than explain, for sure.

I'm drilling into this issues to know better. This is not lack of respect, this is my interest. If you want someone to know about truth, pls explain. If you don't want, what for is all of this internet fight against fraud?

What I'm saying is: face-to-face contacts give information different than yours. Yes, it's possible that all native Indians who came to Poland and all white people who claim they have permission to do things are just bunch of idiots or simply corrupted individuals seeking for money and willingly destroying native Indian culture. But probability of such situation is low.

I can understand now that there're at least two different viewpoints. You present one, other people present another. You show this document, the proclamation - this is important thing and should be known to anyone who happens to get in touch with Dakota/Lakota culture.

However, while searching this forum, I've been getting more and more suspicious. Some examples:

Michael Harner - for sure his works are controversial. He's not however, exploting rules of the proclamation, as I can understand it. What he uses or teaches is just drumming (not forbidden by any law) and creating visions(not forbidden so far). Usage of words "shamanic", "shaman" is a little controversial, but not forbidden (the word spread from Ewenk culture through the world).

Stanislav Grof - interesting person, born just next to Poland, in Czech. AFAIK he teaches his own invented method of holotropic breathing. No fraud there.

Celtic culture - now this is interesting. There are people who feel like being a part of Celtic culture even if they live in U.S. and only their ancestors lived in Celtic lands (Ireland, Scotland, Britanny, Wales etc.) However, there's no point in fighting with "not-so-true" Celtic culture followers, because nearly all Celtic rituals are recreated in modern times.

Archeologists say Celtic nations lived on the territory of Poland. More than likely that lot of Poles have Celtic ancestors. Our culture have a lot in common with "Celtic nations" cultures, e.g. we have more types of bagpipes than all modern Six Celtic nations alltogether... There're even language similiarities. I've been living in Scotland for some time and was several times mistaken as Scottish Gaelic speaker. I even do speak some (not much though) Scottish Gealic. Am I a person that can use Celtic recreated rituals? Would I be hunted and put on fraud list if I recreate Celtic rituals? I don't want to, I'm just asking.

Now to the point. I can understand you fight with "sweat lodge fraud" or whatever you call it. You have some points, my lack of knowledge and lack of face-to-face contact with native Indians nations doesn't give me a chance to verify them. It's just a website against other websites.

IMHO there's no sense in seeking fraud in recreated rites or ceremonies like those connected to e.g. modern Celts. Why are you doing this?

Your credibility is lowered by some obviously false frauds published here. Many websites quite accurate point your errors, e.g. http://newagefraud  .blogspot.com

At the end we are with checking who belongs to what culture. How can we check this for sure? Only by DNA tests. There were people in the past, who verified another people by their blood. It didn't end well.

"Indian sweat lodge" can be an issue, I have too little knowledge to verify this for sure. However, more and more I read pages of this forum it seems you've lost sense of reality somewhere in the way. I hope you wake up, will all respect to all great cultures we speak about.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 02:50:42 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2008, 03:12:43 pm »
It's easy to say that I have no respect - it's easier than explain, for sure.

What part of the word no do you not understand? It has been explained to you: if you don't like the explanation, that's your problem.

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Yes, it's possible that all native Indians who came to Poland and all white people who claim they have permission to do things are just bunch of idiots or simply corrupted individuals seeking for money and willingly destroying native Indian culture. But probability of such situation is low.

You are still not listening. You've been told by Indian people more than once now that no one outside Indian country can operate a sweat lodge or have a pipe.

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You show this document, the proclamation - this is important thing and should be known to anyone who happens to get in touch with Dakota/Lakota culture.

Then stop ignoring what it says.

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Many websites quite accurate point your errors, e.g. http://newagefraud  .blogspot.com

Your refusal to listen makes your opinion irrelevant. That blog is operated by a promoter of frauds who is angry with us for obvious reasons. If you want people here to listen to what you have to say, you must listen yourself to what Indians have been saying loudly about cultural appropriation for decades.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2008, 05:00:47 pm »
epablito , you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about. Before you make yourself sound even more silly and disrespectful than you already do, may I suggest you read the information in the link below;

Advice for critics of NAFPS

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0

As Barnaby says, the website you found that is critical of NAFPS is put together by people who support exploiters. If you read through the links below, you might get a better idea about who is who and what people's agendas are.

That website began with a guy John Lekay who was promoting frauds who didn't like what we doing here. ( Gee i wonder why)

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1029.0

Do a search on some of the names that come up using the search feature for more information on all these people.

So this person began complaining ;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1265.0

People personally invested in exploiters often do everything possible to avoid listening ; 
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/08/06/18439218.php?show_comments=1#18440799

These people openly stated their support for Yeagley, the supposed Indian featured in this clearly anti Indian racist documentary;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1523.0

John Martin ( Tall Soldier ) who is a supporter of both Yegaley and John Lekay openly stated that Yeagley had a role in trying to shut down NAFPS

http://www.badeagle.com/cgi-bin/ib3/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=f7fb624b19f9051302e2c32d6b984765;act=ST;f=19;t=7951
TS77
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I told you guys that nut Al Carroll was breaking the law. I can see him now, crying over
his laptop, lamenting like a woman.

NOTE: TYPE IN www.newagefraud.org AND SEE WHAT YOU GET!

THANKS TO JOHN LEKAY AND DR. YEAGLEY WE FINALLY NAILED THAT MEXICAN S.O.B.

If you read through this you will get a better idea of why there seems to be two different opinions;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1326.0

And reading this might help you understand whats the harm;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1110.0

If you are looking for something simple cute and cuddly to make you feel better, it would be a lot safer to go buy yourself a teddy bear.

And I posted some information of the so called Bronze Age Sweat lodge here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1539.0

Thanks to Kathryn for the link

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:58:32 am by Kathryn »

Offline earthw7

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2008, 05:11:38 pm »
Gee all i can say is that
I am an enrolled member of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe,
I am enrolled as 7/8 Standing Rock and 1/8 oglala.
I live on my reservation and work for my tribe.
I know who i am and i know when things are wrong.
I am only in my fifties still a few years away from my elders
but i do thke all of this to my elder for review.

We have people who come to europe even after they were asked not too by the elders and spiritual leaders.
We ask people not to make people like you because you don't listen to the rules and ways of our culture that have been the way for thousands of years.
What are we suppose to do when people do bad things.

If you want call my tribe and ask for me.
In Spirit

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2008, 10:08:20 pm »
Am I a person that can use Celtic recreated rituals? Would I be hunted and put on fraud list if I recreate Celtic rituals? I don't want to, I'm just asking.

Ceart ma tha... your statements here show you are as ignorant about the various cultures of the Celtic Nations and the diasporas as you are about those of Native Americans.

Like with First Nations cultures and communities, the point is not for outsiders to the culture to imitate the practices of a culture they were not raised in. If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you. You have to approach the elders of that culture on their terms, not yours.

The people coming to your country to sell ceremonies are not authorized representatives of Indian cultures. Those who wrote the Declaration of War, are. You have been told now, multiple times, that imitating these ceremonies is not acceptable, yet you are taking the racist attitude of deciding that the voices of actual Indian people, leaders and elders, do not matter.

We have a massive number of frauds out there abusing what little they know of Celtic traditions. We also have a lot of material that has survived in folklore, some of it written down and, hence, public. Even the practices, customs and beliefs that survived in my family are not really secret. Because of that, our communities are in a very different state than those of the First Nations. However, the fact that we don't have as established a structure and community doesn't mean we have none.  A big similarity is that those in the Gaeltachtaí agus G? idhealtachdan are also struggling to maintain their culture and traditions, aided by those of us in the diaspora that work with groups such as An Comunn G? idhealach Ameireaganach agus The Celtic League. Also, a central principle agreed to by those of us in the Celtic Reconstructionist movement is that cultural appropriation is not a permitted part of the tradition. 
http://paganachd.com/faq/misconceptions.html#firstnations To my great sorrow, I have discovered that one of the people who signed off on that statement is ripping off Lakota traditions (ironically, she's Polish). We have our disappointments and frauds, too. But that's for another thread.

Offline epablito

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2008, 09:42:06 am »
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I am enrolled as 7/8 Standing Rock and 1/8 oglala.

I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give. I'd never allow myself to be enrolled anywhere on the basis of my bloodline. This leads to nowhere.

My ancestors, my grandfathers needed to be enrolled as 100% Polish to avoid being killed as Jews. People were examined how much jewish blood they have, to be marked as Jew and sent do death camp or not. 80% of people from my town were killed just because of they blood. And you let yourself to be enrolled somewhere because of your blood. It makes my flesh creeps...


If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you.

Elders or traditionals of RECREATED celtic spirituality? Sorry, this is just silly.

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You have been told now, multiple times, that imitating these ceremonies is not acceptable, yet you are taking the racist attitude of deciding that the voices of actual Indian people, leaders and elders, do not matter.

You don't listen. As I said, I can only have your website against other websites. I do not argue against Declaration of war or sth, I'm just saying I have your website and other websites and all of this seems to be just fight among angry and silly people. I'm not saying it is so, i'm saying it looks like this.

And stop pissing me off with "rasist attitude".
"Racism - the belief that members of one race are intrinsically superior or inferior to members of other races (wikipedia)". As for now it is you who insult me and keep telling me I'm inferior to others in terms I'm not good enough to use some e.g. purification ceremonies.

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To my great sorrow, I have discovered that one of the people who signed off on that statement is ripping off Lakota traditions (ironically, she's Polish).

Now THIS IS racism approach.

Celtic Reconstructionism - go for a walk :) clear your brain and think about this again. You have no right to think you're more "true" reconstructionists than any other people who recreate Celtic spirituality. Why? Because you've signed sth or keep in touch with native Indians anti-fraud front? This doesn't give you any reason to think you're more "true" than any other Celtic recreation group. No Celtic spirituality elders, no oral spiritual tradition. Some archeological information, evolved and partially recreated language and some books from medieval times with just but traces of Celtic spirituality.

And you keep telling I'm silly or disrespectful...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:01:35 am by Kathryn »

Offline ra6as

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2008, 11:24:31 am »
 
epablito because of the tragic history of your locality, you have a understandable wish to make no distinction between people on the basis of their ancestry.  That is admirable.

Other people, not sharing your history, may be proud of their ancestry and understandably wish to undertake an action such as enrollment on that basis.  That also is admirable.

Surely it is irrational of you to insist that other people should feel the same way about ancestry as you do.

When you say

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I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give.

I wonder if you are just trying to make an argumentative and irrational point.
 

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2008, 08:39:57 pm »
"You don't listen. As I said, I can only have your website against other websites. I do not argue against Declaration of war or sth, I'm just saying I have your website and other websites and all of this seems to be just fight among angry and silly people. I'm not saying it is so, i'm saying it looks like this."

Actually you are the one is not listening. Or rather you are making the choice to not listen.

The ones who favor selling ceremony to non-Natives are a tiny tiny group, a couple dozen out of millions of Natives.

The ones who protest that small group of sellouts and traitors are the great majority of Natives, led by traditional elders.

You claim to respect Native traditions, but attack Native elders as "silly" for wanting to protect tradition?

Epablito, how right would it be for me to call myself a rabbi because a gentile claiming to be the High Priest of the Holy Torah Kabalah said it was OK?

And how would you feel if anyone Jewish who was offended by this was then attacked as being "silly"?

Offline earthw7

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2008, 05:20:10 am »
I can even reply to his statement, I am an enrolled member of my nation which i am very proud to be.
In Spirit

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Przemyslaw Woliczko alias Matho Eyanka
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2008, 11:04:59 pm »
I'm sorry for you, with all the respect I can give. I'd never allow myself to be enrolled anywhere on the basis of my bloodline. This leads to nowhere.

I am sorry your family suffered during the war. But you are looking at this from only your perspective, not making an effort to see that it means something different here in America. And your condescension is not going to help.

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If you really want to participate in rituals of a culture that you were not raised in, it is your responsibility to see if the actual elders and traditionals of that culture, authorized by that culture are ok with it and whether they'll have you.

Elders or traditionals of RECREATED celtic spirituality? Sorry, this is just silly.

I was talking about any traditional cultures, but mostly First Nations ones. However, in terms of the G? idhealtachdan agus Gaeltachtaí, yes, we do have real elders in terms of culture and language. In terms of those in reconstructed polytheistic traditions, we have less. But we do have those of us who are middle aged and have been doing this since we were very young, plus participants in our communities who are are as old as eighty (as was one officiant of the Tara preservation ritual this past Oíche Shamhna, who was also raised with many of these cultural traditions we are now reviving). Our community makes do with what we have, and you have shown over and over you know nothing about it.

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No Celtic spirituality elders, no oral spiritual tradition.

Again, you are clueless. And your statements to Earth and the other Native people here are quite offensive.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:57:25 am by Kathryn »