Author Topic: The Red Record  (Read 65975 times)

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 666
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #255 on: July 10, 2009, 11:44:07 PM »
Of course, the "keyboarding problem" could be related to exposing the Burrows Cave fraud ring, and not
to bls.

I suppose we'll learn which shortly.



Grondine [Insult removed] How could I have anything to do with your "keyboarding problem"? How could exposing the Burrows Cave fraud have caused it? Sounds like there's something wrong with your keyboard, your computer. Yep, sounds like a personal problem.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 05:22:15 AM by bls926 »

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 339
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #256 on: July 11, 2009, 01:22:35 AM »
Of course, the "keyboarding problem" could be related to exposing the Burrows Cave fraud ring, and not to bls.

I suppose we'll learn which shortly.


Grondine, have you completely lost your mind? How could I have anything to do with your "keyboarding problem"? How could exposing the Burrows Cave fraud have caused it? Sounds like there's something wrong with your keyboard, your computer. Yep, sounds like a personal problem.

No, I did not loose my mind, and its no personal problem, bls.

As a matter of fact, I went over to the local library, used a computer with a completely different OS and browser, and the same thing happened when I tried to reply using "quote" on your post: bizarre keyboard and cursor dance.

As I mentioned earlier, there's a difference between clever and intelligent, as there is between clever, intelligent, and wise.

Now bls, you have my response in 3 sections; you may wish to respond, or not.

My offer to Oestreicher for a trade still stands.











Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #257 on: July 11, 2009, 01:36:20 AM »
Do not put words in my mouth. I made no claims about anything relating to Greenland, Atlantis, Lost Tribes of Israel, Middle East, or Wales? Where do you think your ancestors are from?

Bls you missed the correspondence in all of the sources that I have referenced. Dig deeper and keep looking. It might take you a few years.

Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #258 on: July 11, 2009, 01:53:40 AM »
"It is a shame to see your excellent observation on the Piqua tablet and your observations on wampum use compromised by this fraud (the Burrows Cave)."
Thanks for your kind comment on my research into the Piqua, Ohio Tablet and Wampum. I have been meaning to put together a more concise paper on the Ketika Figurines. Sorry to disappoint you about the Burrows Cave Fraud.

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 339
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #259 on: July 11, 2009, 07:46:05 AM »
"It is a shame to see your excellent observation on the Piqua tablet and your observations on wampum use compromised by this fraud (the Burrows Cave)."
Thanks for your kind comment on my research into the Piqua, Ohio Tablet and Wampum. I have been meaning to put together a more concise paper on the Ketika Figurines. Sorry to disappoint you about the Burrows Cave Fraud.

Don't feel alone, others have been taken in by it as well. Your mention of it may have led to bls's statement.

As I wrote earlier, the Burrow's Cave ring is already known, and getting better known everyday. I expect that educated indian and the other moderators will move the topic to fraud when they get the time.

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 666
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #260 on: July 11, 2009, 07:50:13 AM »
Do not put words in my mouth. I made no claims about anything relating to Greenland, Atlantis, Lost Tribes of Israel, Middle East, or Wales? Where do you think your ancestors are from?

Bls you missed the correspondence in all of the sources that I have referenced. Dig deeper and keep looking. It might take you a few years.

I "missed the correspondence in all of the sources"? Look at the glyphs! The ones from the Walam Olum do not look like the Ojibwe glyphs in either Copway's book or the Birchbark Scrolls. The Walam Olum glyphs do not look anything like the pictures found in the Lakota Winter Counts. If you still maintain that they all use the same figures with identical meanings, you really are delusional.

There were no references to "picking berries" and no strawberries in any of them.

As to your thoughts on where our ancestors originated, I'm not putting words in your mouth. A review of your research says it all; your words, your website.


Wales . . . You quoted Lee Pennington:

"The bards of the Brits also recorded births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into the public and sang the stories recorded for everyone to hear. Independent invention? Diffusion?
Obviously at the very least Rafinesque and Lilly would have had some trouble understanding the wording of the Wallam Olam, but they did, I think, the best they could to write down what they heard.
Now the Welsh connection.  Had Rafinesque and Lilly written down Guallam Olam instead of Wallam Olam, they would have been right on target.  In British-Khumary (now Welsh), Guallam Olam (sound familiar?) means "Organization of Everyone." And how about this? Lleni Llenape translates from Khumric as "Hidden or Secret Knowledge or Lineage." Do you suppose this misunderstanding may have created a name for a whole new tribe of Native Americans? Many, if not most, of the Native tribes now carry names that were generated from what Europeans heard and wrote down, and some of those were completely off from what the tribes called themselves." Lee Pennington

Not only did Pennington say there was a Welsh connection to the Lenape, he asserts that they had "kings", a very eurocentric concept.


Norway via Greenland . . . You quoted Myron Paine:

"I discovered evidence that convinced me the legend Walam Olum was a true history. I wrote a book, Frozen Trail to Merica, to explain the history." Myron Payne


Some info about Myron Paine.

Books by Myron Paine

Frozen Trail to Merica: Talerman
by Myron Paine, Ph.D.

Quote
This book solves not only the mysterious disappearance of Norse from the Western Settlement of Greenland in the 1300s, but also deciphers Delaware (Lenape) Indian history found to have been written in Old Norse. The fictional plot is based on Chapter 3 of Walam Olum, a manuscript of pictograms and verses first published in 1836 and based on engravings on bark given in payment for treatment to a Dr. Ward of Indiana by an old Leni Lenape Indian.
http://www.galdepress.com/books/fiction/frozentrail.html


Frozen Trail to Merica: Walking to Merica
by Myron Paine, Ph.D.

Quote
This book solves not only the mysterious disappearance of Norse from the Western Settlement of Greenland in the 1300s, but also deciphers Delaware (Lenape) Indian history found to have been written in Old Norse. The fictional plot is based on the Walam Olum, a Native American manuscript consisting of engravings on bark. Walking to Merica continues the saga begun in Paine’s Talerman.
http://www.galdepress.com/books/fiction/frozentrailwalkingtomerica.html


Paine's Website

The Frozen Trail

Hypothesis:  During the Little Ice Age ancestors of the Algonquin-speaking
people walked, en masse, on the ice from Norse Greenland to Merica

http://www.frozentrail.org/


600-YEAR OLD AMERICAN HISTORY HAS OLD NORSE WORDS
http://www.frozentrail.org/reviews/newsarticle

By Larry Stroud
Ancient American Artifact Preservation Association
February 28, 2007

Excerpt
Quote
That the Algonquin Indian languages have many words identical to Old Norse is not a new discovery, as evidenced in books other than Sherwinís, but the application Paine and Omdahl are using is new. The two are using Sherwinís eight volumes to decipher the Lenapeís ancient picture stick writing, the Walum Olum. For each picture stick, Lenape historians recited or sang a verse.

"The memory verses of the Walam Olum were created by people speaking Old Norse," Paine said. "The Walum Olum is a 600-year-old American history composed of pictographs and memory verses. The history tells of fighting the mound builders, Iroquois, and of the arrival of white men."

"Our efforts to decipher the Walum Olum have found a striking correlation of the Walum Olum words to Old Norse phrases," Paine said. "This relationship strongly supports the hypothesis that Old Norse speakers visited eastern ancient North America and left very tangible evidence of their presence."


HISTORY OF THE WALUM OLUM
http://www.frozentrail.org/reviews/newsarticle

Excerpt
Quote
Researchers Myron Paine and Frode Th. Omdahl, who specialize in Norse "tracks" in ancient America, give the following history of the Walum Olum:

About 1821 a dying Delaware historian passed a bundle of the Walum Olum memory sticks to a Dr. Ward, probably Dr. John Russell Ward, who was treating him. "The historian hoped to save the Lenape 400-year history as the tribe, splintered into chaotic factions that had fought on opposite sides in the American Revolutionary War, massacred each other and were being pushed out of their shrinking land allotments once again," Paine said.


Lost Tribe of Israel . . . You've referenced The Book of Wild:

The Book of Wild is also a supporting document that shows the Natives Used glyphs to record stories.



From your website:

Quote
Manuscript Pictograph America - by Domenech Emanuel, 1860
 
http://www.famsi.org/research/loubat/
 
Histoire Indians of North America, by Adair discusses the Jewish Origin of Native Americans.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/bookofwild.htm


Middle East . . . Comparing North American artifacts to Egyptian, Libyan, Indian, Berber-Arabic, Hebrew, Islam
 
From your website:

Quote
The Rockford Journal
Rockford, Ill. August 13, 1874
Official Paper of The County
The Mound Builders
Were they of Aztec, Egyptian, or Lybian Nationality
Discovery of an Interesting Relic in a mound Near Rockford.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/rockfordtablets.htm


Quote
Index of Tablets

41. Piqua, Ohio Ketika Figurines (two), expert Lee Pennington suggested the inscribed language on these tablets is coelbric.

79.Etowah Tablet from Etowah Mounds, GA is in the museum at the site. It is inscribed in Numidian and reads in the Berber-Arabic language. (Fell)

84.Marshall Anderson Rattlesnake Disk
Similar to the Ashoka Chakra, the wheel of law (dharma) relics of the Mauryan Emperor Ashoka the Great (Reigned 273-232 BCE) is now the central figure on the National Flag on the Republic of India.

114. the Newark Holy Stones, The Decalogue Tablet inscribed in Old Hebrew and located in the Coshocton, OH Museum
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 08:18:42 PM by bls926 »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 666
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #261 on: July 11, 2009, 08:00:37 AM »
"It is a shame to see your excellent observation on the Piqua tablet and your observations on wampum use compromised by this fraud (the Burrows Cave)."
Thanks for your kind comment on my research into the Piqua, Ohio Tablet and Wampum. I have been meaning to put together a more concise paper on the Ketika Figurines. Sorry to disappoint you about the Burrows Cave Fraud.

Don't feel alone, others have been taken in by it as well. Your mention of it may have led to bls's statement.

As I wrote earlier, the Burrow's Cave ring is already known, and getting better known everyday. I expect that educated indian and the other moderators will move the topic to fraud when they get the time.


Bubo's mention of the Burrows Cave may have led to which statement?
What are you talking about?

Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #262 on: July 11, 2009, 01:04:37 PM »
Bls is wrong - look again at the page numbers that I have referenced about "picking berries" and see for yourself that each has made reference to "strawberries".

"As to your thoughts on where our ancestors originated, I'm not putting words in your mouth. A review of your research says it all; your words, your website."

I am flattered that you took the time to read my website, however you have again failed to notice that my websites show historical accounts quoted in reference to the study of iconography. None of the sources that you show include "my words". In fact these are historical quotes from years of research including newspapers, articles, and other researchers. It is apparent that I have not stated my opinion in any of this.

This is a broad review of evidence presenting all accounts on iconography and leaving the reader to make up his or her own mind for themselves. You did not answer my question: Where do you think your ancestors came from?

Stop putting words into my mouth, taking quotes out of context, and do your research before you come to your conclusions.



Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #263 on: July 11, 2009, 01:16:38 PM »
Still, I dont think the scientific process states that we can pick and choose which evidence we want to use. 

We should take a look at all evidence that there is, regardless of what our thoughts are about it, and then the informed reader can make up their minds for themselves.

My interest in all of this is researching, collecting and presenting data that would otherwise be unknown. That way, others can pursue avenues of research for themselves if interested in a particular topic.


Offline bls926

  • Posts: 666
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #264 on: July 11, 2009, 06:40:38 PM »
Bls is wrong - look again at the page numbers that I have referenced about "picking berries" and see for yourself that each has made reference to "strawberries".


Bubo, I went all thru those references you gave; couldn't find strawberries anywhere. Why don't you post those pictures, since you're the only one who's seen them.

2. Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries".
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

  19th Glyph - Gattamin netami mitzi nijini nantine'

I don't read French, so I'm not sure what Napora originally thought the 19th glyph said. I do know that Napora now thinks the Walam Olum is a hoax. He has been quoted as saying that he was "dismayed that the sources upon whom he had relied had been so negligent in their investigation of the document that the hoax should have continued as long as it has".

Rafinesque translated it as "fat fruit the first food the Jinns the fairies".

Brinton translated the same glyph/phrase to say "and fetched them food, when first they desired it".

Does the 19th glyph look like a strawberry? Looks more like a bunch of grapes to me. Neither Rafinesque nor Brinton translated that glyph as "picking berries".


Quote
"As to your thoughts on where our ancestors originated, I'm not putting words in your mouth. A review of your research says it all; your words, your website."

I am flattered that you took the time to read my website, however you have again failed to notice that my websites show historical accounts quoted in reference to the study of iconography. None of the sources that you show include "my words". In fact these are historical quotes from years of research including newspapers, articles, and other researchers. It is apparent that I have not stated my opinion in any of this.

This is a broad review of evidence presenting all accounts on iconography and leaving the reader to make up his or her own mind for themselves. You did not answer my question: Where do you think your ancestors came from?

Stop putting words into my mouth, taking quotes out of context, and do your research before you come to your conclusions.



Don't feel flattered, Bubo. Sometimes you have to dig thru the trash to find what you're looking for. This was one of those times. You may have been quoting others on your website, but the words you've posted here have been your own.

Where do I think my ancestors came from? The German, Scots-Irish, and English came from Europe. My Cherokee ancestors came from the Appalachian Mountains.

You show your complete lack of respect for Native Americans when you try to change their creation stories. Natives know where their people originated. They don't need you, with your eurocentric viewpoint, trying to tell them where they originated. Science only goes so far; the rest is faith.


Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #265 on: July 11, 2009, 07:06:08 PM »
Bls, your interpretation of whether the glyph looks like some berries has no weight on what it actually says. Take another look at the sources with page numbers provided. I am not going to copy it here for you.

Ever hear the old adage One mans "trash" is another mans treasure.

Change their creation stories? Which ones are you referring to?

Diversionary tactics used by Bls do not support his argument. Can the discussion of the Walam Olum stay on topic?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 07:18:18 PM by BuboAhab »

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 339
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #266 on: July 11, 2009, 07:40:14 PM »
Bls, Bubo Ahab -

I have had this "non-judgemental" and "open minded" cr*p foisted upon me by various individuals.

bls - Tecusmseh advised never to trouble anyone about their religion, and he was a wise man. Well, if the Creator chose to fashion us out of tree apes, who am I to question Her judgment? I hope this satisfies; that's as much as I want to share.

To my knowledge, the crossings were as I described; I reserve the right to change my opinion as new information becomes available.

Bubo - When referencing early finds, you hit the earlier erroneous interpretations of them by those who found them. But there is no point in repeating those errors, except in terms of what people thought at the time, and in documenting the finds themselves.

bls - While we need to call out errors in interpretation, and most of the early interpretation was erroneous, on the other hand, we can not throw out the materials because of earlier errors in interpretation and the understanding of them.

Bubo - The Six Nations memories of European visitors may be read in David Cusick's work, which is given complete as an appendix in "Man and Impact in the Americas". Those visits were minor, and the visitors' ends may be read there as well. Anyone who writes otherwise is creating imaginary empires.

Everyone else - I have stated my own problems with Oestreicher's work as it now stands; I have set out what will need to be done to re-examine it in depth.







« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 07:50:25 PM by E.P. Grondine »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 666
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #267 on: July 11, 2009, 08:12:27 PM »
Bls, your interpretation of whether the glyph looks like some berries has no weight on what it actually says. Take another look at the sources with page numbers provided. I am not going to copy it here for you.

Neither Rafinesque nor Brinton translated that glyph as "picking berries". One person, who didn't read Lenape, thought it said "picking berries" and that's the translation you want to go with? You're the one who has continuously tried to tie that glyph with the Ojibwe strawberry. I wasn't able to find any strawberries in the Ojibwe works either. That 2004 Strawberry Heart Basket really doesn't count. Maybe I did miss all those berries, but I really doubt it. If you stand by your research, you'll post the pictures here for us all to see. The fact that you've failed to do that speaks volumes.


Quote
Ever hear the old adage One mans "trash" is another mans treasure.

Yeah, but often times it's just trash.


Quote
Change their creation stories? Which ones are you referring to?

By changing the location, you've changed the story. Creation myths have as much to do with where they took place as they do with the action.


Quote
Diversionary tactics used by Bls do not support his argument. Can the discussion of the Walam Olum stay on topic?

[Insult removed] As previously stated, I'm a woman; therefore, it would be 'support her argument'.

Diversionary tactics? You're the one who brought up the Ojibwe Birchbark Scrolls, Copway's book, and the Lakota Winter Counts; trying to say they used some of the same glyphs found in the Walam Olum, with identical meanings. You're the one who's been blathering about the Ojibwe Strawberry Heart Basket. You're the one who quoted Lee Pennington and Myron Paine. You're the one who has mentioned the Cahokia Mounds. You're the one who gave the Piqua Mounds Ketika Figurine as validation of the Walam Olum. Seems that your research is all over the place. You seem to be a master at diversion. What is it? Throw enough references out there that no one will take the time to investigate? Baffle them with bullshit and they'll think you're brilliant?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 02:34:15 AM by educatedindian »

Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #268 on: July 12, 2009, 12:35:34 AM »
I have already posted the link about a dozen times to the photo of the birchbark scrolls.

Readers can see these birchbark scrolls/ sticks at the following link:
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all

Rafinesque and Brinton were alluding to the same meaning, but this is over BLS's head. Picking Berries was an allegory, as before stated.  Continuity that the Walam Olum, Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony by Speck, and Birchbark Scrolls by Dewdney are each related is seen in their reference to "Picking Berries". 

Speck states that "Picking Berries" was done on the fourth, fifth, and sixth day of the Big House Ceremony.  Picking berries was symbolic of the attendants action of picking up wampum scattered about at the ceremony. The Wampum was stored in the mouth while the attendants made the sound "M+". This symbolized birds picking berries from bushes. Others state that the action used to reward the attendants for their efforts with Wampum (Money).

Dewdney recorded in the Birchbark scrolls that "Picking berries" was symbolic of taking the divergent path. The divergent path was taken to go to the heart berry when one is making a "breakthrough".  Red Sky stated the temptation of the "strawberry" on the divergent path should be avoided.

Ketika figurines match Glyphs 2 and 4 in the Walam olum. These were excavated by J.A. Rayner in Piqua Ohio, a site of the unfortunate massacre of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark.

Bls What location are you talking about?

I am not the slightest concerned about what gender Bls is and it does not relate to this topic either. You have been constantly changing the subject, posting thougtless comments, blathering about no connections with anything, ignoring references that include page numbers, and disrespectfully putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

Offline BuboAhab

  • Posts: 94
Re: The Red Record
« Reply #269 on: July 12, 2009, 01:01:56 AM »
"I have had this "non-judgemental" and "open minded" cr*p foisted upon me by various individuals."
Censorship based on the social stigma connected with a certain artifact, and other sudden dismissals are subjective ways to think of an object. That is the problem with archaeology today- it is very subjective. Archaeologists have been taught to think based on their gut.  What is cr*p is not following the scientific method in research.

"Bubo - When referencing early finds, you hit the earlier erroneous interpretations of them by those who found them. But there is no point in repeating those errors, except in terms of what people thought at the time, and in documenting the finds themselves."
Earlier interpretations were included exactly to show what people thought at the time. That way we can learn about how thought is so subjective and influenced by their own beliefs. Hopefully a few scientific facts may be gleaned from documenting the finds.

"Bubo - The Six Nations memories of European visitors may be read in David Cusick's work, which is given complete as an appendix in "Man and Impact in the Americas". Those visits were minor, and the visitors' ends may be read there as well. Anyone who writes otherwise is creating imaginary empires."
Cusick is a valuable source, and much is learned from reading this. Where did Cusick get his information?

Schuster shows that the Ketika figurine indicates a village courtyard.  The central point was represented as the cosmic navel, that is, the point where all life comes. “Other ketika figures include a “Cosmic Woman” of hourglass form with central disk as navel, 132 & 133. This symbol for woman is said to represent the anatomical proportions of the Original Ancestor. Human figures depicted on top of her suggest that such diagrams were executed originally as earth sculptures, large enough for participants to move about inside them, in the manner of hopscotch diagrams. 

This is similar to the Piqua, Ohio ketika figurines found by J.A. Rayner.2 

Ke is an Osage term that also means turtle.3 

Katickuhraxhu is a term used for Evil spirit by the Tuscarora.4 

Cetika is referenced in ancient Buddhist text called the Bodh Gaya as meaning Royal Palace Shrine at a Sacred Tree, something akin to a private royal chapel.5

In the Walam Olum, the Ojibway Epic, The Ketika Figurine resembles Walam Olum Symbols 2 and 4, which are translated “On the Earth, (was) an extended fog, and there the great manito was.
He made the extended land and the sky.”6

Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found.7

Therefore, linguistic studies of the Native American epic called the Walam Olum confirm that the written record is authenticated.

1. Carpenter, Edmund Snow, 1922- Title Materials for the study of social symbolism in ancient & tribal art : a record of tradition & continuity based on the researches & writings of Carl Schuster / edited & written by Edmund Carpenter, assisted by Lorraine Spiess Published [New York] : Rock Foundation, 1986-1988 Description 3 v. in 12 : ill. (some col.), col. maps ; 38 cm.

2.  Moorehead, Warren King. The stone age in North America; an archeological encyclopedia of the implements, ornaments, weapons, utensils, etc., of the prehistoric tribes of North America,. Boston, New York, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1910.

3. La Flesche, Francis. A Dictionary of the Osage language. Washington, D.C. : U.S. Govt. print. off., 1932.

4. Catlin, George. Letters and Notes of the Manners, Customs, and conditions of North American Indians. Volume II. Dover Publications. 1973.

5.  http://www.buddhanet.net/bodh_gaya/bodh_gaya02.htm

6. http://books.google.com/books?id=KSgTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7

7. http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:02:13 AM by BuboAhab »