Hard to Decide Cases

[weheli]

 :) I very much agree with Trish and Joesph. It is one thing to do the research on a person/group and by what is found form an opinion, but it is very much a different matter to go and check the person ,and what is going on out. I will also add having a government card an Indian it does not make. Point: I had a Lakota friend/sister and we had a wonderful friendship for years until she became an enrolled member of the Rosebud Sioux. She changed drastically and carried her card everywhere, as though this made her more Lakota. her demeaner and attitude changed drastically toward "white" people.

Joesphs lineage is one of honor and respect, when he says to me, Weheli this was a good thing and all was done in the right way, than I am going to believe what he has told me. I don't believe he needs to give his credentials to anyone to prove who he is, in fact it is inappropriate to walk up to an American Indian and say " so what tribe are you from, and just how are you connected to them?"

Joesph knows the traditions and our ways, he would pick up in an instant if things were done in the wrong way, there are many ways to know these things.

Wado Joesph for going to the source and checking this out in person. I to like to check things out for myself and not make conclusions based on others writings. I know this is not always possible.
                                                            Weheli :)

[Moma_porcupine]

Weheli , I disagree with your opinion that it is inapproprieate to ask someone exactly who they are . ?

A Resolution of the 5th Annual Meeting of the Traditional Elders Circle , October 5, 1980

Therefore, be warned that these individuals are moving about preying upon the spiritual needs and ignorance of our non-Indian brothers and sisters. The value of these instructions and ceremonies is questionable, maybe meaningless, and hurtful to the individual carrying false messages. There are questions that should be asked of these individuals:
What Nation do they represent?
What is their Clan and Society?
Who instructed them and where did they learn?
What is their home address?

.
How are people who don't know if someone is a fraud , or not , supposed
to find out ?

Frauds often cultivate the friendship of Native people , and have a few Native supporters . ? As a general principal I don't think it works to trust someone just because a couple Native people say they are OK . If this is the case , pretty much anyone can do pretty much anything , and someone somewhere will say it is OK .

Even Leonard Crow Dog apparently endorses Mary Thunder .
http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1120565479
see the last post

So critical inquiry is necessary. Which is basicly the point of my posts in this thread , and not that I am concerned who has a card or is enrolled , or that I am knowlegeable about this particular situation. ?

I get concerned when I see so many mixed messages on how to recognize a fraud . ? It is hard enough ? to educate people how to avoid frauds and exploiters without being in disagreement on what the warning signs are ,? amoungst ourselves .

Maybe the effects of mixed messages ? is something to discuss in another thread , some other day . ?

[frederica]

I think everyone is right and have good points. The problem is sometimes  people do things differently.  There are some basics, but if the other person is unwilling to share these, not much you can do. Sometimes you just have to back off and wait till the time is right.  I would take Joseph's word on this, and I believe the CNO.  Something is amiss, but it may not be the time to deal with the situtation.  It's like Joseph said anyone can make this stuff up and put it on the internet.  You are the one that has taken the task of disproving it. And many times that is easier said than done. The other problem is you are dealing with a group of defensive human beings. frederica

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

]I get concerned when I see so many mixed messages on how to recognize a fraud . ? It is hard enough ? to educate people how to avoid frauds and exploiters without being in disagreement on what the warning signs are ,? amoungst ourselves .

Maybe the effects of mixed messages ? is something to discuss in another thread , some other day . ?

Well - the problem is that it's not as clear cut as a simple list would make it sound sometimes. Take the instance of payment - there are some tribal cultures where being a medicine man/woman (I'm thinking mainly of south america here) is kinda like running a business of sorts. You're not going to get rich, but you do charge something. So when we say "don't pay to pray" yeah, people shouldn't but there are some hazy areas where its not exactly the case that you wouldn't.

If you want a clear cut list with no exceptions and no disagreements, I'm afraid you aren't going to find one.

;)

[weheli]

 :) MPorcupine,

I agree that these questions should be asked ,if one is doing ceremonies, inipi lodges, ect. and if they are charging for these things avoid them all together. My question is, have you ever walked up to someone who even looks native and asked these questions the 1980 council set up? Frauds , first of all they are very defensive, because they seem to think they have "power" over you, and say verbaly or nonverbaly, who are you to ask me these questions and if they should tell you, they will tell you all lies. I suggest a good lesson would be to walk up to one of these fruads and ask these questions,you must be ready to stand your grounds, have knowledge and not be intimidated!!
We have found that to be true on this site. My statement about asking an American Indian, just because they are Native, to give their credentials is wrong. You would not walk up to an African American, caucasian, Hispanic,ect. and say " so what tribe are you from, who are you associated with?" Thats my point.

My opinion is you are calling Joesphs lineage into question. Check out Swimmer for yourself. It will be a very easy task.

Also am I reading the posts right: if the CNO, I have nothing against the CNO, I know many wonderful people from there, but if they do not sanction you as Cherokee ie: sense you are not enrolled; than you are not Cherokee?????
or if they do not recognize a group, that may be legit, they are not Cherokee???

                                                                Weheli :)

[JosephSWM]

I do appreciate the respect that is shown me here but please do not base it on the assumption that my last name is Swimmer. It is not.

As for confronting people and asking them to prove the Indianess I am against it in principle but if you all were to refer to thread about "Pigeon Lady" you will see I confronted her directly at a powwow. I am happy to say that after that and a bombardment of letters she removed all references to being Cherokee from he web site.

Also I might suggest that we are getting off topic here with this 'discussion'. Its sad because a few seem to so easily get angry.

Joseph

[weheli]

Sorry about that assumption Joesph, just goes to prove how inaccurate information one attains can be inaccurate.

                                                             Weheli :)

[Moma_porcupine]

Opps , looks like we got booted out of the discussion about the Nuyagi ketoowah Cherokee .

Weheli , I have no idea where you got the idea I am questioning Josephs lineage . ???

There are some things that I believe are usually warning signs something is wrong , and seeing a number of these things , as I have previously explained , do cause me to question Josephs judgement in this particular situation . It is possible there are things I am just not understnding . ( it happens rather frequently )

I have never seen Joseph to be abusive in any of his posts , and I have no reason to question the general quality of his character , his knowledge of Cherokee cultural traditions , or his lineage . I just do not expect anyone to have perfect judgement all the time , and that includes both myself and Joseph . I am sorry if that feels disrespectful to anyone .

I apologize if my concerns have caused anyone to feel angry or defensive . The discussions here often remind me of real life situations I am trying to deal with in my own communtiy , and I think exploring the issues is a good thing to do . ? I especially appreciate having a "delete" button . ? Ahh now .. if I only had one of those in real life ! :)