Liability and frauds

[Moma_porcupine]

Something I keep wondering about is liability . If a business sells a product , by knowingly advertising it to be something it is not , and someone who relies on this product is damaged because the product is fake , I would have thought the business selling this product and falsely advertising it , would be liable for damages . ( ? )

Why would this be any different for someone selling "Native American teachings" , that the seller knows to be something someone more or less made up ?

The damage is not necessarily physical injury . ? The damage could be emotional , psychological , Spiritual , or even just the time and emotional investment a person might waste learning fake traditional teachings , when they were sincerely wanting to learn something of their heritage .

There is also the damage and stress suffered by associated persons and family members who may find themselves forced to interact with people carrying a warped belief system that was largely invented by someone wanting a salable business product .

If someone claimed to be a psychiatrist or a MD or a Priest and was not , and people got hurt , through being tricked into accepting false counceling , surgery or confession , I would assume whoever had falsely advertised themselves as being what they were not, would be held criminally responsible . Especially if their activities could be shown to be a business and not just someone who was too delusional to know right from wrong . Am I mistaken about this ? Are there not laws that protect people from frauds ? ? So why are these frauds who are claiming commercialized New Age beliefs as Native American teachings not held liable for damages more often ?

Has anyone ever heard of this happening ?

If it did happen , I would imagine some people would think twice about selling out of context , or entirely made up Native American teachings and ceremonies .

[frederica]

Mama, Good question and I sure don't know the answer. One thing is that the MD's and Priests are controlled by either a Medical Board or ordained by the Vatican. They have licenses and supposably standards of practice.  There have been several civil suits won against the others (Nuages, or whatever) in Louisana, California, Flordia.  It is one individual that has been defrauded that brings the suit.  Whether these people that chose not to pursue this is because of embarassment,  not interested in paying a lawyer, or just the "forget it" symdrome, "I learned my lesson", it is hard to say.  There are probably more that do not pursue than do.                                                                           If they are INC. you have the Better Business Bureau to talk with about "shady advertising". Non-Profits are harder.  Many of they say they are educational, and that covers a wide range of activities. In the case of Debbie's scoundrel, the Testimonials are people's opinions. You have no idea what he is advocating, so their is a large grey area as to what he actually claims.                                                                                                    As you pointed out before,  there is controversy over putting controls on our Medicine People and Ceremonies.  I think Al has the best idea, about education people to the groups and the fraud.  But I don't have any concrete solutions or answers. Just my 2 cents worth. frederica                                        

[Mo]

maybe the way to go is for individual nations to take the frauds to court. if someone is claiming to be a cherokee medicine man or whatever else they come up with..then the cherokee..or lakota..or any other nation. should take them to court for fraud and misrepresentation or whatever else they can. that seems to be the only way to stop them. they don't care about honor, but they sure care about money.

[educatedindian]

When I lived in Phoenix I spoke with ASU's Student Legal Aid, and then an Indian Law professor, Kim Titla. At the time I wanted to take Harley Reagan to court for fraud, even thought about taking one of his courses so I could turn around and sue him. They told me that if I took the course knowing what he did was fraud beforehand, legally I had no case.

So could someone who found out later it was a fraud sue him or others? Maybe. For someone like one of Harley's victims, you'd have to find someone who wouldn't mind being humiliated by describing being sexually assaulted and somehow believed it to be an NDN ceremony. Most people, including those on juries, just aren't as naive as many Nuagers. When I teach my classes a brief "how to spot a fraud" guide before they go looking for Native websites, maybe 90% are amazed anyone falls for these exploiters.

And that's not even bringing up the shame many survivors of assault or molesting (or just ordinary con games) feel.

Many cops and DAs are also clueless about Native beliefs. They think somehow a fraud posing as a Native elder is protected by the 1st Amendment.

And many NDNs don't want the courts having the say over what Native beliefs truly are. Some of the longtime members might remember the long debates I had with Mike Two Horses over that.

I don't know if it'd work, but maybe taking them to tribal courts might be best. I recall the Hopi sued some Nuagers who misrepresented what one of their elders said, but can't remember the details.

[Moma_porcupine]

I hardly know anything about how the legal system works , but I can see in many situations there would be too much of a grey area to hold someone legally responsible for providing dubious Spiritual guidence .

I definently did not mean to suggest it is the business of non native governments to start trying to tell a tribe , or Native people how they may practice traditional Spirituality. Obviously that would not work, and tribal governments need to be the ones to address problems concerning their own people and traditions .

I was only thinking this might be an effective deterent in situations outside Native communities , where something is being advertised and sold , and it can be proven that this "product" is not what it is claimed to be in the advertisements , and the person advertising and selling this was aware of these facts .

Especially if it is a business , and money is being charged .

Part of what got me wondering about this, was an article in NAFPS posted in the News section located at the link below .

http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1122838227

This article is about a Native man being sent to jail for selling eagle parts . He tried to defend himself saying what he did was freedom of religion , but it sounds like the court disregarded this as a defence, on the grounds that money had changed hands ? , so it was no longer seen as a matter of religion , but of a business.

In reply #2 , fourth and fifth paragraph from the bottom , it reads ;

Prosecutors did not challenge Antoine's religious beliefs. But they argued ? that money changed hands, which took it out of the realm of religion and ? made it a commercial operation that the government had a right to bar.
 
The jury sided with prosecutors, and Antoine was sentenced to two years in ?
federal prison.

 
So perhaps there are some legal precedents when religious beliefs cross the line into a commercial operation ?

What is really sad is some of the people who are most vulnerable to frauds are people who have grown up with some form of abuse , and because of this they have learned to use denial as a coping strategy . ? Often these people do not have their alarm ? go off when it should . ? This lack of a working sense of "normal" , together with a desperate need to make things right , or find a place where they belong , can make these people really vulnerable to being taken advantage of by a fraud . Definently education can go a long way to help people make better choices , but - in my opinion - lying to sell a product is still wrong, and people who do this should have some responsiblity for the damage their phoney qualifications and guidence may cause .

People pretending to have Native teachings and a right to corrupt traditional ceremonies together with the fact that this is so often tolerated, in a society that has laws and liability for things like impersonating a Priest , or a psychologist or MD , just seems like one more double standard, that is based in racism and the inabiity to see any Native ways , as being really "real" in the first place . ..... It bugs me .

Sorry if have resurected an old discussion that already died a natural death .

[frederica]

Mama, I agree with you 100%. I wouldn't think this is going on in the Nations themselves. Most of the culprips are outside the communities. And there are some enrolled Tribal members selling Ceremonies through out the country. Most of the Nuagers give NDN heritage and let people think what they may. There are some that claim to be Medicine People, but give an variety of tribes. I met one that claimed to be a Medicine Person in a "past life".                        I know one person that challenged one coming to his area and was told that State was a "right to work" State. so nothing really could be avoided. The States vary so much on these things. The people attending these things has some responsibility about what they participate in. I have never attended one, and often wonder if there is some waiver that they have to sign. I would expect some have liability insurance like the non-tribal PowWows.  They are pretty much entrenched in this day and time. Exposing them seems to work best. Cuts down on their money flow. There is an NDN Disneyland in Arkansas near Hot Springs that has branches in Sedona and I believe the UK. But recently they been having problems with the Park Rangers and challenged a legimate NDN organization in the State and they will pay the price. It's frustrating, but as long as people are willing to spend their money on this stuff and join a bunch of groupies following some puedo-healer, there is not much you can do. I believe these people for the most part are just con artist and they remind me of the old movie Elmer Gantry. Maybe they start to believe their own con after a while. But money is the bottom line. frederica

[Freija]

This was in a Wyoming paper 17th July. Does anyone know anything about it? Seems like the tribes are sueing some frauds....?


"A member of the Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribes faces a trial in September over a disputed Sun Dance ceremony he organized in Oklahoma. Patrick Spottedwolf is charged with contempt of court. He allegedly
violated tribal court orders not to hold the Sun Dance.

The court orders were issued by judges for the Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribes and for the Northern Arapaho Tribe of Wyoming. A prosecutor for the Northern Arapaho Tribe will present the case against
Spottedwolf in Oklahoma.

Another man, Saul Birdshead, might also be prosecuted. He was also named in the injunctions, forbidding him and Spottedwolf from "conducting, directing, sponsoring or causing to be performed"
any Sun Dance ceremonies."

[frederica]

Happen on July 8th or about. He Spottedwolf has pleaded not guilty. The Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribal Court issued the order last year prohibiting Spottedwolf from performing the Sundance or other Arapaho ceremonies.  He did it anyway. Built an Ceremonial Arbor around Concho Okla and was raided by about 50 people who cut it down with chainsaws and set it on fire. It's an Northern/Southern Arapaho Tribal problem. Not anything to do with fraud. frederica

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Concerning stealing of ceremonies etc..  I am wondering why it is that it is a criminal offense to steal 'artifacts' but not 'ceremony, etc'.  ?  I would think it rather falls into the same category, well, sort of.  I did read something on here about not wanting US/Canadian law involved (in copyright thread) which is totally understandable, but still, stealing is stealing, theft is theft.  I wonder if taking someone to court for theft of traditional ceremony would hold?