Tucson area - ? teaming with frauds?

[SouthwestSkeptic]

I'm new so please excuse me ---
I can't figure out where to post this.

Is anybody who charges money for services that kind of seem like they used to be ndn ceremonies automatically a fraud?

They all charge for some sort of service, but sometimes they'll call it tuition or a donation.  I've spoken to a lot of them in person they usually claim to be teaching something that is "Native American inspired" or some such thing.  
Most people that I know won't stop paying these people unless they have some kind of proof that these folks are ripping them off.

My twinkie-sense is certainly tingling on these characters, but can anyone confirm that they're frauds?
(Yeah I know I watch too many old movies)
O.K. Here's the TUCSON Twinkie Parade:

Lorena B. Moore
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Web site: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usaz&c=words&id=8299

Ku Istan
Location:
1506 W. Ontario
Tucson, AZ
Phone: 520-690-0546
E-mail: kuistan@hotmail.com
Description: "Prayer in a Native American format. 1st Saturday on/after new moon, 3:00 - 7:30pm. Bring towels, dry clothes for after, a gift for the pipe, food to share for the Potluck after (no pork), a Frog Skin donation ($) to help with expenses, and wood (nails must be removed). Call in advance for info.???
Web site: http://www.wingspan.org/content/res_category_detail.php?desca=Community&descb=Religious+and+Spiritual+Organizations&totaldescc=Other
I contacted WINGSPAN - the local gay organization and they insist she's legitimate and can prove she's Apache.

Dancing Butterfly Retreats
Eden Hot Springs
Location: 2 ½ hour drive East of Tucson
Web site: http://www.dancingbutterfly.net/retreats/arizona_hotSprings_eden.html
Descripton of scam:  You can get your blood analyzed and your colon hydrated for only $695.00 wow! "Included in your Investment...
Sacred group sound healing ceremony, daily heart-centered yoga, inspirational lectures, gourmet raw vegan cuisine, contemporary Native American sweat lodge ceremony, accommodations for 4 nights, unlimited access to the hot springs pools, all natural spa treatments and mud bath and the most powerfully transformational experience of a lifetime!!!???
Web site: http://www.dancingbutterfly.net/retreats/arizona_hotSprings_eden.html
Dancing Butterfly Enterprises
email: info@dancingbutterfly.net
phone: 949-715-7902 (this is long distance)

Raven's Way Traditional School
Vince Pinto PRIMAL JOURNEYS: RETREATS FOR MEN
RWTS
Location:
3000 West Lobo Road
Tucson, AZ 85742
Descripton of scam: Vince claims to be able to "...assist with and possibly initiate primitive projects on "Raven-Looks Mountain" (Vince's land). Examples include: stone pit house, shade arbors, sweat lodge, earthen dams, quest hut, etc. "
phone:520-403-5085
email: ravens_way@hotmail.com
Web site: http://www.hollowtop.com/ravensway.htm
The Sky Island folks are pretty respected around here.  I don't like the way he throws around the term "primitive" though.

Institute of Shamanic Wisdom
Dr. Liana Carbón
Location:
1701 E Lind
Tucson, AZ 85719
Description of scam:??? Liana is an Ordained Minister and Earth Steward with IASHES, the International Association of Spiritual Humanists and Earth Stewards, and is an accredited member of the World Association of Holistic Shamans and the Society of Shamanic Practitioners.??? She sells sweat lodge ceremonies, but usually calls them something else, like full moon ceremonies.  Instead of charging for ceremonies, you pay tuition of around $200.00
Phone: 520 820-5665
Email: liana@tiswisdom.com

Joe MacDonald and Andrew Weil
The Mirival Resort
Location:
5000 E. Via Estancia Miraval
Catalina, Arizona
Phone: 800-825-4000 ext 4471
email: (Media contact) Diane@hawkpr.com
http://www.wheretogonext.com/releases/2003_7_16_Miraval_Resort_&_Spa_Launches.php

He's a regular at the Mirival resort.  Oprah thinks it's the best resort in America.
Description of scam: From brochure: ??? Miraval's wellness agenda; guests opt from activities such as yoga, tai chi, Pilates, healing visualization and shaman-led sweat lodge retreats. A signature offering, Liquid Joy Meditation, combines underwater submersion with sound therapy to induce a "playful dolphin"- like state of harmony within each participant.??? Bargain rates are $3,000 off season will cost you $3,500
Web site: http://www.miravalresort.com/activities.php?sub=Upcoming%20Events&month=11
There's an article about him on quackwatch.org
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/weil.html
They say you're really paying for a spa experience and that any spiritual benefit is "incidental"

Ann Mitchell, JD, MA, LPC
Connections Workshops
Location: 39580 S. Lago del Oro Parkway
Tucson, AZ 85739
Work address:
CONNECTIONS Workshops™
6890 Sunrise Drive, Suite 120
PMB #254
Tucson AZ 85750-0739
phone: 520.349.6086
email: director@connectionsworkshops.com
website: www.connectionsworkshops.com

Description of scam: "Treatment Model: psychodynamic, using psychodrama, tai ch'i, meditation, yoga, sweat lodge ceremonies-- cognitive behavioral to access underlying distorted thought patterns-- mirroring technique to discover what is projected from the inside world to the outside world-- and nutrition counseling to develop a functional meal plan."
Web site: http://www.connectionsworkshops.com/WorkshopComponents.htm


gracias

Rose

[educatedindian]

I'd certainly say making a buck off of fake NDN ceremonies automatically makes you a fraud. That some of them try to weasel out by calling it something else doesn't make it any less pay-to-pray.

Ku Istan has been posted about before. Even if she is Apache, what she's doing is fraud, plain and simple.
1) Apaches don't do "lesbian sweatlodges". In fact Apaches don't do sweatlodges in the same way as Plains tribes do.
2) Apaches don't "carry the pipe" in the way she claims.
3) Apaches don't do "shamanic journeys." That's pure Nuage.
4) Apaches don't speak of Four Directions like so many Plains tribes do. We talk a lot more about two directions, namely the earth in relation to the stars. At least Mescaleros do.

She's doing a Nuage/pseudo gay rights knockoff of Lakota ceremony. Look at the bottom, she tosses around Lakota phrases.
http://www.donoharm.bravepages.com/FebruaryActions.html

I also liked the way Apache was handwritten in, like they hadn't decided what to claim yet.

And she's only recently claimed to be Apache. Before that she claimed to be Paiute, then Lakota, then Dakota, plus others.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Debunking_debunkersrule/message/51?viscount=100

The LGBT involved in this are talking out of both sides of their mouths. The notices now put out say "praying in a Native American format." So they admit it's not Apache, not even Native, simply a "format." In other words, a faux version or knockoff.

Most of the others appear at first glance to be core shame on types. What truly amazes me is that people could be this dense in TUCSON. It's not like living in some place where there are almost no Natives. They've got Yaqui neighnorhoods a few minutes drive away, and rezzes not too far, plus maybe 1/10 of the whole city's NDN. I lived on Phoenix for two years, and outside of Harley's gang (mostly rich types in Scottsdale suburbia) there weren't that many Nuagers around. Why do you think Tucson's so different? And Mexicans getting into it, that really sickens me. They should know better, of all people. I'm guessing it's Mexican yuppies doing this? Because working class Mexican people should know better if they know anything about curandero traditions.