Hello from the UK

[SingBlue]

I'm not entirely certain how welcome I'll be here but I'll give a go:

I grew up in Shakopee, MN next to the Lakota reservation there.  There is native blood in my family (as I think just about everyone says in the States, mind you) but due to being multiracial at a time when being "mixed" meant you were pretty much an embarassment to your family, I didn't follow up (and I still don't feel a need to, as the blood is so diminutive I'd feel like an idiot making a "claim").

I however did find myself coming into contact time and time again with Natives, usually Lakota/Dakota who taught me a considerable amount and helped to explain a lot of things which were happening in my life and things I have been able to do as a kid (I won't go into that though).  They didn't have an issue with the fact I was Irish, Norwegian, Afro-American, and Native - just that I was listening, and I'm grateful.  This happened with members of Ifa, of Tantra (old skool), and British Pagan traditions, but I kept meeting Native people over and over again who took me under their wing - I'm not sure why, but I doubt it's some deepseated Universal Plan for me to Lead the People to A New Dawn.

With the birth of my son (to an English father) his culture is even more mixed than mine and I find myself now going through the same stuff I did when I was younger:  if he's not 100% of any particular culture, does that mean he has no "right" to any culture at all?  I was always "too white" for this, "too black" for that, "not enough NDN" for others.  I want my son to know about his myriad backgrounds, and yet there's always this trepidation that people are going to get hung up on the fact his skin is too light, or too dark, or his accent is wrong if I take him to any celebrations, feasts, or ritual gatherings.

I do get the anger - charging for a sweat lodge just torques me off; I don't get why someone who claims to be from a Plains tribe is wearing a load of turquoise, and it makes me cringe when I hear of someone who had a vision on some kind of drug and thinks they're now a shaman.  But as a multiracial person I also wonder what people like myself can do to know anything about who we are.  I would be pretty cheesed off if my son just decided he was Native one day even though he's never set food on US soil, but I admit the term "hobbyist" sort of irks me as well - in the US, I didn't sit in a warrior sweat for a laugh, and I didn't tie a bunch of prayer bundles for my teacher fighting cancer because I read about it in a book somewhere, and I no longer wear a watch as my teacher used to have fits when someone brought "Those White Man Devices on my land" and I just fell out of bothering about time.  

In any event, such is my intro.  I know it's somewhat poor form to start one's first introduction with a question or request (like beginning a prayer without first giving thanks), and I apologise but it's been on my mind for a few days now - actually, it's been on my mind ever since my son was born.  In the meantime, I am going to read the forums over again a few times and digest.  I did it a bit before now but it was time to at least make myself known as it's your space I'm entering.


So I'm leaving my business in this here burden basket, and with your leave I'll have a look and a listen.  If there's questions, I'll answer best I can.  Thanks for reading.

[Ric_Richardson]

Tansi;

Welcome!  As a Metis person, I was raised to be Proud of all of the Cultures that make up my Heritage.  I was taught that all of these must be Honoured, in order for me to be complete and Respectful.  I hope that you find help here, in being able to instill the Pride that your child deserves. 
Ric

[nemesis]

Hello :)

I couldn't help noticing your reference to "Tantra (old skool)" and I would be very interested to understand more about what this actually means.  I would be genuinely interested to learn about your thoughts and experiences re this.

Also, what is your experience of the British Pagan traditions?  I was involved on the fringes of some of the British pagan / occult scene many years ago and am interested in the experiences of others.

As for myself I am not even 0.001% ndn (at least to my knowledge), just interested in exposing new age frauds, psychic frauds etc.

[SingBlue]

Thank you for the welcome, and I'll try and answer your questions:

Tantra suffers from the same issues I think as a lot of the Native American "shamans" - there is a lot of tantra floating about which is primarily called "Neo-Tantra" and seems to merely focus upon the sexual positions of the Kama Sutra, and nothing else.  My own teachings, whilst they weren't extensive, were originally based on a teacher who had spent 20 years in India and who initially was involved in the New Age movement during the late 70's (something which he admitted himself he regretted somewhat as people took only what they wanted to hear and discarded the rest) and you'd be surprised how little actual sex is involved, though it is indeed there.  I fell out of tantra, primarily because as I tried to pursue my learning, it became quite apparent to me that many of the men (if not all) attending workshops were prepared to say/do/pretend to believe anything if they thought they were going to get a great shag out of it.  They were nodding and smiling at all the right points, but they were gagging for it - and thoroughly prepared to be picky and just going for the most gorgeous girl without paying a whit's attention to the teachings.   What was supposed to encourage "healing and empowerment" in women was instead making them either extremely insecure, a false sense of self-worth or (in one case) was just adding a bit of padding for her real business as an escort to help her charge even more money.  Unfortunately, the reality sort of got in the way of the idealism for me, so I gave up on it, though some of the teaching was still very good and I am grateful.

The British Pagan traditions for me, initially started with Wicca.  I have been in the UK for over 10 years and yet I can say without doubt that the land here does not know me, and I can feel it in every ritual and rite I've ever attended.  I was taught by my own teachers to introduce yourself to the land if it is not yours, and I have done that everywhere I walked in the US, and felt welcome.  Here, it's not the same - I can't really describe it in terms that won't sound really hoky and possibly make people snort and roll their eyes, but that's how I've felt.  Therefore, I felt like an intruder and a fraud attending rites, wearing cloaks and reading from a script.  For other people it works, but for me, it didn't.  That's fine, and I do admire the OBOD druids and their practicality which has nothing to do with a lot of the fluffy-pagan stuff I see.  They're gritty, they're in tune with their land and I applaud that.

I've found myself more drawn these days to Ifa- probably due a lot to the fact that the founder of Ifa in the US went through a lot of stuff from the voudoun/Yorubic community for being a white man, and has proven he's earned his stripes. Again, I'm not fully 100% on board however as, whether people want to admit it or not, the voodoo/Yorubic religion is being persecuted in the UK; there's all sorts of talk of murderers, child sacrifices, and utter nonsense which has put practitioners very much underground, and it's nearly impossible to find any teachers.  I can understand that, and haven't pushed the matter.  They'll come when I'm ready.

I admit I also find frauds to be rather frustrating, and I'll certainly blow the whistle if need be - but constantly hunting for snakes and frauds would mean it would take time away from me actually walking my talk in my own life, so I won't contribute overmuch or I'd be online all the time!  Still, I like to be forewarned so I don't find myself ready to go upside someone's head with my cane at a spiritualist event.

[nemesis]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it. :)

Tantra suffers from the same issues I think as a lot of the Native American "shamans" - there is a lot of tantra floating about which is primarily called "Neo-Tantra" and seems to merely focus upon the sexual positions of the Kama Sutra, and nothing else.

While I am in agreement with this I also feel concerned, simply because some very nasty criminal tantric cults use exactly this argument to dismiss their business rivals and to promote their own brand of "authentic"  / "traditional" tantra when in fact it is nothing of the sort and is no more than a manipulative strategy for exploiting vulnerable people in all kinds of ways including sexually.

 My own teachings, whilst they weren't extensive, were originally based on a teacher who had spent 20 years in India and who initially was involved in the New Age movement during the late 70's (something which he admitted himself he regretted somewhat as people took only what they wanted to hear and discarded the rest) and you'd be surprised how little actual sex is involved, though it is indeed there.  

I am very curious as to the identity of the person who initiated you.  If you feel that you would like to share of course.

I fell out of tantra, primarily because as I tried to pursue my learning, it became quite apparent to me that many of the men (if not all) attending workshops were prepared to say/do/pretend to believe anything if they thought they were going to get a great shag out of it.  They were nodding and smiling at all the right points, but they were gagging for it - and thoroughly prepared to be picky and just going for the most gorgeous girl without paying a whit's attention to the teachings.   What was supposed to encourage "healing and empowerment" in women was instead making them either extremely insecure, a false sense of self-worth or (in one case) was just adding a bit of padding for her real business as an escort to help her charge even more money.  Unfortunately, the reality sort of got in the way of the idealism for me, so I gave up on it, though some of the teaching was still very good and I am grateful.

This sounds depressingly familiar although it seems like you managed to avoid the worst of the excesses associated with some tantric cults.  Most of the cults I have researched have either covert or even overt links to the sex industry and, while I would not be critical of people's choices in life regarding sex work, I do feel extremely concerned about the exploitation and abuse of women and girls in these cults.  Most if not all of them have workshops claiming to help you discover your inner sexual goddess / Shakti / whatever and some actively promote the concept of sacred prostitution.  Guess who gets the revenue form all this sex work?  Here's a clue; it's not the women who sell sex.

The British Pagan traditions for me, initially started with Wicca.  I have been in the UK for over 10 years and yet I can say without doubt that the land here does not know me, and I can feel it in every ritual and rite I've ever attended.  I was taught by my own teachers to introduce yourself to the land if it is not yours, and I have done that everywhere I walked in the US, and felt welcome.  Here, it's not the same - I can't really describe it in terms that won't sound really hoky and possibly make people snort and roll their eyes, but that's how I've felt.  Therefore, I felt like an intruder and a fraud attending rites, wearing cloaks and reading from a script.  For other people it works, but for me, it didn't.  That's fine, and I do admire the OBOD druids and their practicality which has nothing to do with a lot of the fluffy-pagan stuff I see.  They're gritty, they're in tune with their land and I applaud that.

I've found myself more drawn these days to Ifa- probably due a lot to the fact that the founder of Ifa in the US went through a lot of stuff from the voudoun/Yorubic community for being a white man, and has proven he's earned his stripes. Again, I'm not fully 100% on board however as, whether people want to admit it or not, the voodoo/Yorubic religion is being persecuted in the UK; there's all sorts of talk of murderers, child sacrifices, and utter nonsense which has put practitioners very much underground, and it's nearly impossible to find any teachers.  I can understand that, and haven't pushed the matter.  They'll come when I'm ready.

I admit I also find frauds to be rather frustrating, and I'll certainly blow the whistle if need be - but constantly hunting for snakes and frauds would mean it would take time away from me actually walking my talk in my own life, so I won't contribute overmuch or I'd be online all the time!  Still, I like to be forewarned so I don't find myself ready to go upside someone's head with my cane at a spiritualist event.

I think you would be well advised to be extremely careful and cautious about pursuing your interests.

There is no need to hunt for frauds as they are everywhere.  Throw a rock and chances are that you will hit one.

I'm pushed for time now so please excuse the rushed post, will post more later.

[SingBlue]

Thank you for your response, nemesis and I'll try and touch on what you mentioned:

Of course there is cause for concern in all spirituality - there are not-so-great people everywhere.  However I have seen it happen that in other areas, women were not charged and yet men were charged a fortune.  I'm sure that this did go into some pockets - but in my case I think this was due to men thinking they were going to have a stellar "experience" and the teachers hoped it would winnow out the chaff.  But Seattle is a very rich, very decadent area, and the result just brought in bored, rich businessmen. They did not charge money for women to train as tantrikas: to not charge women who wish to become students may be a "lure", but in my case, I don't think so.  Even though most of the men were disappointing, I had the pleasure of meeting with people who weren't in it to be like Ramtha and drive a lavender Rolls around, and while there are flakes everywhere, I was rather pleasantly surprised that the Seattle tantric scene seemed to have a hold on trying to control that.

I first started reading Jonn Mumford's work - and again I did what I usually do; pray, sit and wait.  I was initiated in Seattle - that was ten years ago, I'm not sure Pam is still there now - and a lot went on before I was ever initiated.  Pretty intense as I was taking the Vam Marg path (though I did want to explore Dakshin Marg, that's damn near impossible outside India), and a good experience even if the rest was a letdown.  I guess I just don't have the rose-tinted glasses to think patriarchal society will be obliterated within a few sexy hours, and that's about as far as average male interest seems to span on the subject.  Still, I reserve what I have learned for partners who I am very close to, and have never regretted it as there are a few people who can appreciate what such an approach to sensuality can offer without getting hung up on, shall we say, The End Result.  This makes the whole thing worth it for me, and I am not emotionally scarred at all by anything I took part in - I feel my teacher was true, and I recognise not everyone has that kind of fortune.

I think due to a lot of puritanical/patriarchal thinking, most people are always going to equate tantra with prostitution no matter what; it's why Tantra was forced underground in the first place, and why the British were so scandalised when temples would take prostitutes off the streets and honour them as Shakti in their temples.  Yes, I get there are weasels out there, and I've certainly seen people just run blindly into such situations, the last thing I am is a victim, so while I appreciate your wish for me to be very careful, I'm not 20 anymore and have certainly managed to get burned a few times - but I walk with both eyes open.  It helps I'm a 6 foot tall ex-bodybuilder though; I do NOT look like a fading violet by any stretch!

Thanks for the further queries; it has made me think on how perceptions affect us, good experiences and bad ones too.  I've been in some pretty wild situations and always walked out, learning something all the way.  Friends of mine say I should write a book, but I don't think anyone would be believe me!

[ska]

Forgive me.  This discussion is bringing out the cranky in this middle-aged Indian (Punjabi) woman.  So I feel I have to vent.

With regard to western interpretations of sacred Hindu ways: yuck.  listening to people talk casually (ie. amongst strangers on the internet) about something so sacred: double yuck.

The only term I can think of in reference to the discussion of "tantra" in this thread is Sanskrit: NETI NETI.

This line from Mumford's website is nauseating: "This depth and breadth of experience makes Dr. Mumford uniquely qualified to communicate the secrets of Tantra to the Western world." (http://www.jonnmumfordconsult.com/about.html)

As to the wisdom of "western masters" like John Mumford, whose decades of study have led him to sell his knowledge in a course, and those aspirants who want to pay to pray and seek knowledge, I'd like to express my opinion of his method of spreading his expertise and wisdom by sharing some wise teachings that I have mastered after years of studying North American Settler oral traditions:

"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

A lengthier discourse on this matter, again from the wisdom of Western Elders, is as follows:

A wise old owl sat in an oak
The more he saw the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard
Now wasn't that owl a wise old bird?

Please note: I had to spend many years studying bar coasters, fridge magnets, and novelty party napkins before I became qualified to share these aspects of the American oral tradition.

[SingBlue]

Well there's the rub isn't it?  If I come here and say nothing of who I am or what I have been done, I would have been accused of lying.  If however, I share as much as I feel I can (and believe me, I have zero intention of sharing everything) then I am accused of disrespect.  So to be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what response would have "pleased" people here, but I was asked a question and I felt it disrepectful not to answer.

It's interesting you find Dr Mumford to be disrespectful and daring to charge as a Punjabi woman.  So, if I may ask, does Punjabi University in India fall under your same sense of ire? Imagine Tantra and Yoga with a bit of a Freud/Jungian slant if you really want to get your eyes crossed:

http://punjabiuniversity.academia.edu/Departments/Psychology_but_wrkng_in_Yoga_n_Tantra

Now I ask you - are students at a university screened to know if they are worthy to be taught these "secrets" (and as it was put to me by Philip Newmark, "It's a secret" means "I don't know")?  Are they allowed into university completely free of charge to learn this wisdom?  Who sanctions the professor to teach on such things?  And where is the public outcry against every single university in the world which dares to teach religion, history, spirituality-vs-psychology on a mass scale?  This is considered "education" - while the people being pursued on websites are considered charlatans; some are, I imagine, yes, but I do not believe they ALL are.  Where's the line, exactly?

I have to admit that I came on the website to get opinions of certain things which I have seen, but that I find this sort of witch-hunting rather disturbing.  There's a lot going on in the world - often upon the native lands which many people here feel are sacrosanct.  And yet, it seems that there's more energy being put into hunting down a few rather naive idiots halfway across the world than dealing with what is happening in one's own neighbourhoods.  That's not something I can do - and I am sure just saying that will also get people up in arms as they want to know what gives me the right to speak about such things, and I would be compelled to put together a list.  This list would then be shot down in one way or another.  

[Defend the Sacred]

Thank you, Ska, for pointing out the common, casual, and unquestioned appropriation and watering-down of Indian (from India) ways. It's been going on for so long in England and the US that most people seem blind to that racism. All the yoga studios, ashrams, kirtan or bhajan groups run by non-Indians...  Outsiders to the culture who've given themselves the names of Hindu deities. And, like with NDN issues, the appropriators usually get all grumpy and angry at anyone who points out the problem.

SingBlue,

Well there's the rub isn't it?  If I come here and say nothing of who I am or what I have been done, I would have been accused of lying.  If however, I share as much as I feel I can (and believe me, I have zero intention of sharing everything) then I am accused of disrespect.  So to be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what response would have "pleased" people here, but I was asked a question and I felt it disrepectful not to answer.

Thank you for attempting a path of honesty. However, if you're still engaging in racist appropriation, expect someone to call you on it. Many of us here have made mistakes in our pasts. The question is, when you're given information about how you're screwing up, what do you do? If you then make changes in your life, if you stop appropriating and make amends, that's a good thing. You learned. You can now help fight racism. If all you do when people try to educate you is get defensive and surly, and lash out at those you asked for input... well, that's not going to work out too well.

It's interesting you find Dr Mumford to be disrespectful and daring to charge as a Punjabi woman.  So, if I may ask, does Punjabi University in India fall under your same sense of ire? Imagine Tantra and Yoga with a bit of a Freud/Jungian slant if you really want to get your eyes crossed.

I find your tone here disrespectful, SingBlue. Ska has every right to be "cranky" about seeing her culture bought and sold by outsiders.

American universities have "Native American" classes, taught by non-NDN outsiders. They read books by anthropologists who only witnessed fragments of ceremonies, or who were intentionally misled by their subjects who didn't want their culture stolen. Those universities then spew out more non-NDN "experts" who try to tell NDNs how to live their lives, who believe they know more about NDN cultures than those who actually live them. It's a huge problem.

I have to admit that I came on the website to get opinions of certain things which I have seen, but that I find this sort of witch-hunting rather disturbing.  There's a lot going on in the world - often upon the native lands which many people here feel are sacrosanct.  And yet, it seems that there's more energy being put into hunting down a few rather naive idiots halfway across the world than dealing with what is happening in one's own neighbourhoods.  That's not something I can do - and I am sure just saying that will also get people up in arms as they want to know what gives me the right to speak about such things, and I would be compelled to put together a list.  This list would then be shot down in one way or another.

Wow. That is pretty insulting. Do you realize how insulting you are being?

You need to understand that just about every day brings another "seeker" to this forum; adults who feel rootless, and who are trying to find their way in life by trying out different spiritual "paths".  Last year NDN, this year yoga, next year Ifa, then maybe more NDN. We've seen it all before. There's plenty of information here in the pinned threads for people who want to reconnect with their heritage. But this site is not about helping people find a spiritual path as an adult (unless part of their spiritual path is to commit themselves to fighting injustice), nor is it about making people feel warm and fuzzy about their participation in cultural appropriation. 

It's also rather selfish of you to think we want to take the time to discuss your personal quest for meaning in your life when we could be working on more serious issues. You seem to be here for personal reasons, not cultural ones, not political ones.

If you knew anything about the serious, long-term, cultural and political work done by many of our members, you would realize how insulting it is for you to imply people who post here are not working in their own communities, struggling every day to preserve and protect their people, their lands, their cultures.

But how would you know? Your words mark you as an outsider. And a disrespectful one, at that.

So, the question now is, Do you remain yet another drifting seeker who insults the very people you come to for advice, or will you listen to those who are giving you feedback? If you only want feedback from NDNs, or members of the other cultures you are vulturing from, feel free to ignore my words. But if you treat people here with disrespect, you'll join the list of selfish seekers who've been shown the door.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Universities?  I must be an oddball as I don't believe any university anywhere can teach certain knowledge, they may brush across it by giving it a name, or making a reference of particular beliefs, but some things can't be taught in university of any kind.  If I had a tantra or yoga class in a university, my belief would be that I am learning some fundamentals, but not the very root of it.  And if a professor actually was teaching something sacred, well, come on now.. as I said.. brush upon it perhaps..  lol

Well, just saying.  :)  

I don't know, (& that's not a secret)  I'm reading your words and keep feeling that you're doing exactly what you saying others here are doing.. just waiting for someone to disagree so you can jump on the 'this is witch-hunting' and whatever other ideas in your mind you feel are put downs or something.  you doing it. getting up in arms cuz of Ska's opinion.. that's all you doing it.  that's what I read.  

[Bear]

Hi SingBlue

I sometimes come to this forum to check things out, but seldom post on it.  I find that almost anything you say on here will be shot down in flames by someone or other, you just have to be philosophical about it if you want to participate rather than "Lurk".
I myself worked with the Deer Tribe for a number of years before becoming uncomfortable with the sources of the teachings and leaving. I cannot deny that I learned things from them which I did not know before and which have been of value to me since, but I would not advise anyone to join on that basis given what I now know about "Swiftdeer".  I now am a member of OBOD and am quite comfortable with the sources of their teachings and the way they conduct themselves.  Having said that, I fully expect to be challenged on one or all of these points. ::)
In short, use this site as a resource, post if you feel you want to, don't expect to make any friends! ;D

Bear

[nemesis]

Bear

If you post stuff like you just posted then of course you will get shot down LOL

I bet you post on a lot of forums and don't make many friends.  

FWIW I've posted a lot here and never felt "shot down" at all.

Ska

Sorry you feel yuck and double yuck about me discussing tantra here.

It would be helpful if you could perhaps say something about how the issues of abuse within tantric cults can be discussed without causing you hurt or offence?

My involvement in tantra is limited to exposing criminals who use the facade of tantra (call it pseudo-tantra, neo-tantra, whatever) to abuse people, and there are plenty of people, both Indians (as in from India) and non-Indians who are jumping on the gravy train in this respect. It is an extremely lucrative industry as you are probably aware and has been so since before the days of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh AKA Osho, who was the Indian guru who got the whole industry going by drawing the attention of criminals to the potential for revenue generation inherent in tantric cults with his fleet of 93 Rolls Royces and warehouse full of gold and diamonds.

I have no problem with anyone who follows a spiritual tradition providing they do not hurt others in doing so.

I have absolutely no respect for anyone, no matter what their background might be, who uses any spiritual practice or tradition as a way of abusing people.