Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 117950 times)

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2009, 04:49:50 am »
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2009, 05:00:55 am »
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?
There are always two (or more) sides of any discussion.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #137 on: November 11, 2009, 07:41:57 am »

Paul123 said
Quote
Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?

I thought we agreed that there are too many fake State Recognized Tribes out there.  So, when you say "State ones", we have to clarify "WHO" we are talking about.  The Real Historic Tribes with State Recognition or a group of primarily "white people" with vague stories of some misterious and distant Cherokee ancestor that hid out in the woods almost 200 years ago? 

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2009, 11:47:31 am »
Here you go folks.  Good or bad this is the law in Alabama.  "LOM"         
CHAPTER 475-X-3 PROCEDURES AND CRITERIA FOR THE RECOGNITION OF INDIAN TRIBES, BANDS, GROUPS AND ASSOCIATIONS

TABLE OF CONTENTS

475-X-3-.01 Procedure For Recognition

475-X-3-.02 Types Of Recognition

475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group

475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association

475-X-3-.01 Procedure For Recognition.

(1) Petitioner shall submit to the Alabama Indian Affairs Commission a petition requesting state recognition which contains the information described below. The petition must indicate the type of recognition sought as specified in Rule No. 475-X-3-.02 of these regulations.

(2) A decision in favor of recognition must be rendered by a simple majority of the commission members. The time period in which the commission may research and verify the petition shall not exceed one (1) year from the date upon which all evidence required from the petitioner is delivered to the office of the commission.

(3) A decision of denial may be timely appealed. Such appeal for reconsideration must be made not later than 30 days from the date of the commission decision. The request for reconsideration shall specify one of the following categories:

(a) Appeal with New and/or Additional Evidence:

1. Petitioner shall prepare an appeal of petition which presents new or additional evidence not previously presented to the commission for consideration. Petitioner shall have 90 days from the date of the request for reconsideration within which to submit said new or additional evidence.

(b) Appeal without New and/or Additional Evidence:

1. Petitioner shall prepare an appeal of petition stating specifically why the commission should reconsider its decision. Petitioner shall have 30 days from the date of request for reconsideration to present its case for reconsideration.

(c) In either of the above situations, the petitioner appellant must be afforded a hearing within 60 days of receipt of such documentation as stated in (a) and (b) above. The commission shall thereafter render its decision not more than twelve (12) months from the date of such hearing.

(d) All notices called for shall be in writing by certified or registered mail.

Authors: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985.

475-X-3-.02 Types Of Recognition.

(1) An "Indian Tribe, Band, or Group" is a population of Indian people related to one another by blood through their Indian ancestry, tracing their heritage to an Indian tribe, band, or group indigenous to Alabama. No splinter groups, political factions, communities or groups of any character which separate from the main body of a tribe, band, or group currently recognized by the State of Alabama may be considered for recognition by the Commission. A state recognized Indian tribe, band, or group may apply to the Commission on behalf of its members for assistance and information regarding services and benefits to Indians.

(2) An "Indian Association" is an organization of Indian people made up of members of state or federally recognized Indian tribes, bands or groups who have joined together to form such association, the purposes of which are documented by the association's bylaws or constitution. Ninety percent of the association's membership must be Indian. Membership in an Indian association does not of itself certify an individual as Indian. A state recognized Indian association may apply to the commission on behalf of its Indian members for assistance and information regarding services and benefits to Indians.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Amended: Filed April 5, 1995; effective May 10, 1995.

475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group.

(1) Petitioner must meet all criteria as specified in this section.

(2) Petitioner must present a list of at least two hundred and fifty (250) members of the tribe, band, or group (list must be inclusive by name and addresses), unless this requirement is waived by an affirmative vote of three-fourths (3/4) of the membership of the commission.

(3) Petitioner must present evidence that each of its members is a descendent of individuals recognized as Indian members of an historical Alabama tribe, band, or group found on rolls compiled by the federal government or otherwise identified on other official records or documents. Ancestry charts for each member citing sources of documentation must accompany the petition. Each chart must bear the notarized signature of the individual to whom it pertains. Photocopies of such documentation shall be made available to the commission upon request.

(4) Petitioner must present satisfactory evidence that its members form a kinship group whose Indian ancestors were related by blood and such ancestors were members of a tribe, band or group indigenous to Alabama. This evidence may be the equivalent of the ancestry charts required in Section 3 above.

(5) The petitioner must swear or affirm the following:

(a) No individual holding or eligible for membership in a federally or state recognized tribe, band or group may be accepted for membership in the petitioning group.

NOTE: This requirement is for the protection of members of federally or state recognized tribes who might otherwise forfeit services by becoming members of a non-recognized tribal group.

(b) That the criteria used by the petitioner in determining eligibility of individuals for membership includes but is not limited to the requirement of kinship through Indian ancestors who were members of a tribe indigenous to Alabama.

(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.

(7) Petitioner must include a statement bearing the notarized signatures of the three highest ranking officers of the petitioning tribe, band or group certifying that to the best of their knowledge and belief all information contained therein is true and accurate.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Emergency amendment filed August 28, 1985. Permanent amendment filed November 5, 1985.

475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association.

(1) To be recognized as an Indian association, the petitioner must show at least a ninety percent of its enrolled members are Indian. The remaining members may be either Indian or non-Indian or members of tribes, bands or groups not recognized by the state or federal government.

(2) Petitioner must present to the commission the association's membership list including the names and addresses of all members and the designated tribal affiliation of its Indian members.

(3) A copy of the bylaws and constitution or purpose clause of the petitioning group must accompany said petition and be received by the commission.

(4) The petitioner must swear or affirm that at least ninety percent of its membership is Indian. No petition shall be granted a hearing where it is shown that the association, its bylaws, or purpose clause is contrary to public policy.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.History: Filed April 5, 1985.

Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #139 on: November 11, 2009, 12:38:47 pm »
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

So should we only support the laws that we like and disregard the rest?

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #140 on: November 11, 2009, 01:23:15 pm »
As I understand it, the reason federal recognition is respected , is because there is criteria in place so you can be sure any groups that meet these requirements really are tribes. When it comes to federal recognition it seems the criteria are so rigourously applied that it's very difficult for even an obviously legimate tribe to be approved. The problem with State tribes is the opposit. The criteria defining this also allow groups which aren't tribes to be recignized as tribes or that groups which don't meet their own criteria are recognized anyways.

This appears to be what is going on in Alabama.

From Little Old Man's post above
Quote
(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.

Repeating what I posted in reply 128 of the di8scussion with Paul about the Echota Cherokee in the thread below
 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2344.120


http://aiac.state.al.us/tribes_EchotaCherokee.aspx

Quote
The Echota Cherokee Tribe
Rising from the Ashes
The members of the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama are the descendants of those Indian people who escaped the infamous “Trail of Tears” by hiding out in the mountainous backwoods and lowlands of the Southeast. Others fled from the march after it began and others simply walked away and came home after reaching Indian Territory. They kept to themselves, did not speak the language and did not teach it to their children for fear the child might speak it in the presence of someone who would learn the secret of their ancestry. If this happened, they could immediately be taken into custody and sent to Indian Territory in the west. Everything they owned could be given away by the State.

As much as possible our people assimilated into the white populace and claimed to be “Black Dutch” or some other type of European to explain their slightly darker color. Since nearly all work was done outdoors, most people had a tan anyway. However, most of us remember stories of our family members who always wore large straw hats and long sleeves in the summer because they did not want to become any darker than they already were.

During the early gatherings of our people, old stories or “legends” were told, crafts were demonstrated, and those who still knew a few words of the Cherokee language shared it with all. We struggled then and struggle now to preserve our history and culture. Everyone brought “covered dishes” to those gatherings and we enjoyed the pleasure of potluck dinners. It was wonderful to fellowship with others who shared the common bond. Friendships that were developed early on have lasted to this day.

Soon it was realized that we should have a “name” and become a more formalized group. At a meeting in Opelika, Alabama on March 16, 1980 the name, “ECHOTA” was chosen. The Phoenix was chosen as our symbol since we were rising from the ashes of our burned villages and forced removal, to join and reclaim that which was almost lost to us.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070404012211/www.echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com/Joe.html
Joe Two Eagles
Quote
Charlotte Stewart Hallmark has worked diligently for the Echota Cherokees since before we even had a name. I doubt very seriously if there would even be a tribe if she had not taken the high road and persevered after I retired from tribal activity because of health conditions.
So these people seem to be saying their "early gatherings" as a tribe was in the 1980's and involved people alive today. They had no name for themselves, no collective history since they went into hiding as individual families, and their identity as a "tribe" was so fragile it depended on the perserverence of one individual.

That doesn't appear to meet the criteria Alabama itself says it requires.

Even if the criteria would in theory identify a legit tribe, it's entirely meaningless if groups are recognized as tribes that don't meet the criteria.
 
It's pretty obvious to me that it's useless talking to Paul because he just ignores everything that doesn't lead to the conclusion he is determined to reach.

I'm still not sure why he is determined to reach this conclusion. He obviously isn't really wanting a connection with the culture as he doersn't even care or see a difference between the real culture and an imitation.

Paul
Reply #111
Quote
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),
So what...They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes. each Tribe does things differently no matter if they are a Fed. Tribe or not.

Maybe this is the reason

Paul Reply #87
Quote
It's all about the money honey.. and it always has been and always will be. if it weren't for the money thing I dare say that this very thread wouldn't have been needed. 

Paul
Quote
Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

That really wasn't funny Paul. In fact I am finding your ability to completely ignore everything that is said that you don't like, and your complete lack of concern for the real impact this has on real indigenous peoples,  pretty disgusting.



Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #141 on: November 11, 2009, 01:38:46 pm »

Paul123 said
Quote
Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?

I thought we agreed that there are too many fake State Recognized Tribes out there.  So, when you say "State ones", we have to clarify "WHO" we are talking about.  The Real Historic Tribes with State Recognition or a group of primarily "white people" with vague stories of some misterious and distant Cherokee ancestor that hid out in the woods almost 200 years ago? 

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?
Again I will point out that there are a higher percentage of "White looking" people in the CN and as for the State Tribes, sure there have been changes to the enrollment requirements of these Tribes over the years from the time when they got their recognition.

Look, I'll give you an example of what I feel is a fake tribe. Here in Fla. there is or perhaps was (their web site is gone now) a group using the Cherokee name. Their web site had a side bar of links such as Home, Chiefs, Tribal land, Housing authority, Tribal Police, enrollment and what ever. When I looked at the page about their Police dept. there were photos of about 6 of them, they had a chief of police and the rest were deputies. 4 of them had the same last name.  Well now I click on the tribal land page and found an address. So now I google map the address and found that their "Tribal Land" was one single house in a typical inter city  neighborhood. A search of the property tax rolls show that the tribal chief (who is also the police chief) was the legal owner not the tribe. Then on the enrollment page I find a statement that said that you don't have to have one drop of NDN blood. Now there was no fee to submit an application but it did say that under their tribal law that there would be from time to time an assessment fee.  So not only do I think that this bunch are fake, but now they are impersonating police officers too.

On the other end of this thread are the likes of the Lumbee. 'nuff said about them we all respect their rights. So this leaves all of the other NDN tribes/Tribes that fall in between these two.
 
My position on this is simple,,,
If they have State recondition. (from a State that has strict standards) Then they are a Tribe, with all of the respect due any real Tribe. (whether we like them or not).

 And if they have NO  recondition, then they are a tribe. and as such should be investigated for fraud. (like that new bunch in Ala. that just bought a golf course and want to open a casino)  and like I said before, Altho it's a good place to start,  investigated doesn't mean just a web search. like I did with the "The cherokee national golf and country club tribe"  I would welcome an investigation by their State's Attorney Gen. 

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #142 on: November 11, 2009, 01:44:44 pm »
^5 Moma!! Excellent post! You've put into words what I've been thinking. This has been discussed with Paul on at least two separate threads; he just doesn't get it.


Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2009, 01:46:19 pm »
@Moma_porcupine, et al
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm debating it. If you really want me to I could just as easily debate the other side. But how boring would this thread be if everyone agreed. we could all just sit around and pat our selves on the back. If you don't wish to discuss anything with me, that is of course your choice. And If you don't feel that this group or that group is what they say they are, then prove it. Do the research. Where's the beef?

You said:
"It's pretty obvious to me that it's useless talking to Paul because he just ignores everything that doesn't lead to the conclusion he is determined to reach."

And you don't see that you also have made up your mind as well. and that it is useless to discuss any other position with you  (no matter what the law is in this regard).
 
I have pointed out what it is in legal terms but you keep pointing out what you think it should be.  

If this thread gets past the emotions of what it should be then perhaps we could discuss how to change the laws.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:03:07 pm by Paul123 »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2009, 02:12:25 pm »
Question:  Who determines State Recognition in Alabama? Who decides if a group is a legitimate tribe? 

Answer:  The Alabama Indian Affairs Commission


Tribes Recognized by the State of Alabama 
 
Quote
Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Buford Rolin, Chairman
5811 Jack Springs Road
Atmore, AL 36502
(251) 368-9136
Website: www.poarchcreekindians.org
(Note: Also recognized by the Federal Government)
 
Echota Cherokee Tribe Of Alabama
Charlotte S. Hallmark, Chief
630 County Road 1281
Falkville, AL 35622-3346
(256) 734-7337/ FAX (256) 734-7373
Send Mail To: P.O. BOX 830                     
Vinemont, AL 35179
E-Mail: echotacherokeetribeofal@yahoo.com
Web Site: www.echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com
 
Cherokee Tribe Of Northeast Alabama
Stan Long, Chief
113 Parker Drive
Huntsville, AL 35811
(256) 858-0191
E-Mail: jstanleylong@bellsouth.net
Web Site: www.cherokeetribeofnortheastalabama.com
 
Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe of Alabama
James C. Wright, Chief
202 North Main
Kinston, AL 36453
(334) 565-3038 
E-Mail: chiefjames@centurytel.net
Web Site: www.machistribe.com
   
Star Clan of Muscogee Creeks
C. Scott Sanders, Chief
242 County Road 2254
Troy, AL 36079
(334) 399-4928
E-Mail: osahwv@charter.net
 
Cher-O-Creek Intra Tribal Indians
Violet Parker Hamilton, Chief
P.O. Box 717
Dothan, AL 36302
E-Mail: vlt_hamilton@yahoo.com
 
MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Wilford Taylor, Chief
1080 Red Fox Road
Mount Vernon, AL 36560
(251) 829-5500
E-Mail: chieftaylor@mowachoctaw.com 
Web Site:

*Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Gary Hunt, Chief
3412 Wellford Circle
Birmingham, AL 35226
E-Mail: okema@Live.com 
 
*United Cherokee
Ani-Yun-Wiya Nation
Gina Williamson, Chief
6407 Jarmon Road
Guntersville, AL 35976
(256) 582-2333
E-Mail: ucanonline@bellsouth.net
Web Site: www.ucan-online.org
 

Click Here to View Geographic map of Tribal Locations
 

* Recognized by statutory authority July 10, 2001 
{section 41-9-708 of the Code of Alabama}, with all the rights and privileges as a state recognized tribe afforded therein.
 


Commissioners   
 
Quote
Ma-Chis Lower Creek
Nancy Carnley
PO Box 7
New Brockton, AL 36351-0007
(334) 894-0108
E-Mail: machis@centurytel.net

Governor's Appointee
Lagaylis Harbuck
218 Vanity Park Drive
Jackson, AL 36545
(251) 247-2375
E-Mail: lharbuck@mchsi.com
 
Echota Cherokees
Charlotte S. Hallmark
132 Sunset Trial
Alabaster, AL 35007
(205) 663-5089
E-Mail: Chr0842@aol.com

Cherokee Tribe of Northeast Alabama
Cindy Samples
P.O. BOX 252
Douglas, AL 35964-0252
(256) 593-8102
E-Mail: PrttyMoon@aol.com 

Poarch Band of Creeks

Cher-O-Creek Intra Tribal Indians
Violet P. Hamilton
1315 Northfield Circle
Dothan, AL 36303
(334) 712-1795
E-Mail: vlt_hamilton@yahoo.com
 
Commission's Appointee
Richard D. Greybull
1950 Red Hawk Drive
Enterprise, AL 36330
(334) 347-5546
E-Mail: dakotawacipi@yahoo.com 

Star Clan Of Muscogee Creeks
C. Scott Sanders (1)
180 Debbie Drive
Deatsville, AL 36022
(334) 399-4928
E-Mail: osahwv@charter.net
 
Speaker of House's Appointee
Representative Harry Shiver
Alabama State House
11 South Union Street
Suite 526-D
Montgomery, AL 36130
(334) 242-7745
E-Mail: harryshiver@aol.com 

Lieutenant Governor's Appointee
Senator Zeb Little
Alabama State House
11 South Union Street
Suite 722-A
Montgomery, AL 36130
(334) 242-7855
E-Mail: zeb@zeblittlelawfirm.com
 
MOWA Band Of Choctaws
Wilford Taylor
1080 Red Fox Road
Mount Vernon,  AL 36560
(251) 829-5500
E-Mail: chieftaylor@mowachoctaw.com 

*Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Don Rankin
3412 Wellford Circle
Birmingham, AL 35226-2616
(205) 979-6581
E-Mail: kahkahwee@charter.net
 
*United Cherokee
Ani-Yun-Wiya Nation
Gina Williamson (2)
6407 Jarmon Road
Guntersville, AL 35976
(256) 582-2333
E-Mail: ucanonline@bellsouth.net
 
 
* Recognized by statutory authority July 10, 2001 {section 41-9-708 of the Code of Alabama}, with all the rights and privileges as a state recognized tribe afforded therein.

(1) BOARD CHAIRPERSON
(2) BOARD VICE-CHAIRPERSON

 


Notice any similarities?

As Moma pointed out . . . While the criteria that the Alabama Indian Commission set up to determine eligibility look great on paper, they are not being applied. These groups have been in existence for a few decades, not a few centuries.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #145 on: November 11, 2009, 02:16:24 pm »
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:19:44 pm by Paul123 »

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #146 on: November 11, 2009, 02:19:23 pm »

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.  

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture.  

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong.  

Ok.. I'm getting confused..  


press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #147 on: November 11, 2009, 02:33:00 pm »

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.  

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture.  

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong.  

Ok.. I'm getting confused..  




Your not confused, And the law isn't wrong, it is what it is.

What is wrong is that some groups have fallen through the cracks in the floor of the State recognition process and have been recognized when perhaps they shouldn't have been,  just the same way that some groups have fallen through the cracks in the BIA's recognition process and have not been recognized when they should have been.

What is happening here is just the opposite of what the Task force is doing. The Task Force tosses all of the apples into the Bad apple group and the State recognition process tosses them all into the good apple barrel.

There has to be a middle ground whereby the right thing is done on both sides.

Do you not see that there should be a middle ground? that's not a system based on extremism ism from either side?


Edit:
I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.

Yes, that's all I'm saying. And I'm only saying it for the sake of discussion. not based on emotions. I can debate any subject from any side with out letting my emotions get in the way.
(I mean that I can do it with respect for other person's differing opinion).

By pointing out what the law is, we can progress to , (perhaps) an agreement of what should be changed. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:40:50 pm by Paul123 »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2009, 02:41:35 pm »
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?


Absolutely! These people, or their friends, recognized themselves as legitimate. State Recognition is not an impartial procedure. I'm not picking on Alabama. Georgia and Tennessee are doing the same thing.

The state officials involved . . . Yeah, it is all about the money. Money and favors. Vying for federal dollars and tourism dollars.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2009, 02:46:55 pm »
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?


Absolutely! These people, or their friends, recognized themselves as legitimate. State Recognition is not an impartial procedure. I'm not picking on Alabama. Georgia and Tennessee are doing the same thing. The state officials involved . . . Yeah, it is all about the money. Money and favors. Vying for federal dollars and tourism dollars.


OK,,, I understand what your saying. This sort of thing has been going on in law and governments for as long as there have been laws and governments hasn't it?


 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:48:41 pm by Paul123 »