NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: BlackWolf on November 01, 2009, 11:00:16 pm

Title: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 01, 2009, 11:00:16 pm
These terms and issues have been brought up a lot in various forums. (Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees,and Exploiters)

Moma Porcupine  says this in the thread Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation

Quote
Maybe this is an idea that should be discussed, but I guess I get annoyed when it gets brought up in a thread discussing bogus groups claiming to be tribes. If a dialog about the possibilities of integrating distant descendants is going to happen , it seems it would be respectful to bring this up as a separate discussion, and if federally recognized people don't want to participate, that is their choice.


I can’t speak for people who claim other Tribes, but in regards to people who claim Cherokee Heritage and can’t prove it, I’ll just go ahead and say it.  The vast majority of these people ARE NOT OF CHEROKEE HERITAGE.  I say this because many people just automatically accept the fact that they are of Cherokee heritage.  This is one of the main reasons I have a hard time accepting these people, and the possibility of “integrating distant descendants” with vague stories.  I constantly here people like E.P. Grondine, and others trying to defend theses people/and or themselves.  I will also say that I agree that a Federal Card doesn’t make one an Indian, and that there are clear cases of people who ARE Cherokee who don’t qualify for enrollment in one of the 3 Federally Recognized Tribes, as I am sure there are similar cases with other Tribes. However, for a variety of complex reasons I may go into later, most of these so called undocumented Cherokees are not Cherokee at all.  A fact that seems to be overlooked all the time.     


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 02, 2009, 06:12:15 am
These terms and issues have been brought up a lot in various forums. (Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees,and Exploiters)

Moma Porcupine  says this in the thread Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation

Quote
Maybe this is an idea that should be discussed, but I guess I get annoyed when it gets brought up in a thread discussing bogus groups claiming to be tribes. If a dialog about the possibilities of integrating distant descendants is going to happen , it seems it would be respectful to bring this up as a separate discussion, and if federally recognized people don't want to participate, that is their choice.


The problem as I see it is that you have PODIA with no place to go. The fraudsters prey on them. So as long as that situation continues, take down one fraud, and another will pop up. There is no need to participate, its just that that seems to be the pattern that I am seeing here.

I will also say that I agree that a Federal Card doesn’t make one an Indian, and that there are clear cases of people who ARE Cherokee who don’t qualify for enrollment in one of the 3 Federally Recognized Tribes, as I am sure there are similar cases with other Tribes.

Whenever I meet a descendant of Pocahontas, I suggest to them that they will enjoy a visit to the Pamunkey reservation. [JOKE]

But the people I am talking about are the other folks you mention. And yes, there are similar cases with other Tribes.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 02, 2009, 06:20:22 am

Moved from the other thread.


I just have a few questions, and a few observations. IF the Eastern, Loyal and Absentee had of figured out what to do then Jerry Pope never would have been able to pull off his fraud. And these current groups may not have shown up.

And IF the CNO figured out what to do, then others like him would not continue to pop up on the Cherokee side.

This may sound strange to you, but I have always wondered why the Cherokee don't just keep their lands in Oklahoma for the property, but return to their original lands in the East. This goes for other peoples as well.


And I'd like to add that there's a difference between recognising a hole that PODIA are falling into and 1. speculating as to if the Federally recognised tribes might be able to do something about it VS. 2. thinking that they are RESPONSIBLE to do something about it or EXPECTING anything from them.

Clearly they are not obligated to do anything, nor do they owe PODIA anything. But it might be in their best interests to do something, if it cut some of these fakes off at the knees.

Cherokee Nation is already doing this with their satelite communities.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 02, 2009, 06:29:01 am
Blackwolf, I have a question, if you don't mind.

If these folks behaved themselves, ie, did not "play Indian", screw up the culture, put on airs, but instead were respectful and listened and put the community above their own needs, and supported the real soveriegnty of the three Federally recognised tribes, would you feel the same way?



 

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 02, 2009, 02:21:25 pm
Quote
And I'd like to add that there's a difference between recognising a hole that PODIA are falling into


Again, I think this term is misleading "PODIA" for the above mentioned reasons.  I prefer the term "people who claim Cherokee" ancestry in regards to those claiming to be Cherokee and can't prove it. Its more accurate and its a neutral word. 

 
Quote
Blackwolf, I have a question, if you don't mind.

If these folks behaved themselves, ie, did not "play Indian", screw up the culture, put on airs, but instead were respectful and listened and put the community above their own needs, and supported the real soveriegnty of the three Federally recognised tribes, would you feel the same way?

I think anyone regardless of race or Indian Status that wants to learn in a respecful manner would be welcome and accepted.  As to whether or not they would be accepted as "Cherokees" is a complety different story.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: LittleOldMan on November 02, 2009, 02:48:10 pm
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 02, 2009, 03:00:57 pm
Quote
And I'd like to add that there's a difference between recognising a hole that PODIA are falling into


Again, I think this term is misleading "PODIA" for the above mentioned reasons.  I prefer the term "people who claim Cherokee" ancestry in regards to those claiming to be Cherokee and can't prove it. Its more accurate and its a neutral word. 



I think anyone regardless of race or Indian Status that wants to learn in a respecful manner would be welcome and accepted.  As to whether or not they would be accepted as "Cherokees" is a complety different story.

I use PODIA because it seems to be the term used here. I just say about myself that I have Cherokee ancestry. I am clear that I do not claim to BE Cherokee, or Indian.  I personally think that is insulting to real Cherokee and Indians. AND yes it's important to me, and I do feel an urge to make a positive difference. I want to support the soveriegnty and well being of Cherokee people and Indian people in general.

I really am more of a POMA - Person of mixed ancestry. 


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 02, 2009, 04:32:01 pm
Quote
Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.


It causes confusion in the eyes of the public of what is and is not authenthic culture.

Quote
Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians.

Yes, and it has already happened numerous times. 

Quote
How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.


The Indiain Arts and Crarts Act of 1990 needs to be changed.  You have a situation now where you have members of bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes selling their craft work as authentic Cherokee.  And as I said before, most of these people aren't Cherokee by neither blood, nor culture. The ironic thing, is that you probably even have the descendents of "white intruders on Cherokee land" with no Cherokee blood, profiting from the Cherokee name.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: LittleOldMan on November 02, 2009, 05:10:26 pm
That's what I thought.  Culture ,money, and art.  But why is it that  it has only relatively recently seems to be an issue or did I just not notice it?  "LOM"
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 02, 2009, 05:37:08 pm
Blackwolf, thanks for starting this thread.

I don't mean to interupt LittleOldMans inquiries, but on the topic of the general legitimacy of most of these claims , I guess there is 2 things that makes me wonder ...

The first is that if people are in fact descendents , and their ancestry is recent enough to have had a real effect on their families, it seems like these people would usually be able to find relatives within a federally recognized Native community.

That would seem to be the best way to make a connection.
 
I guess it is different in different places, but the other thing that makes me wonder is I have always found Native people to be so open and welcoming my main concern has been seeing this taken advantage of, and not that anyone is being unfairly left out. I have seen some hesitancy towards people making doubtful claims , but unless there is something outrageously overblown or impossible in these claims , as far as i have seen , the uncertainty about these people has always appeared to be expressed respectfully , and is nothing more than a degree of  healthy skepitsm.

And there does seem to be a good reason for keeping people who have an exagerated sense of entitlement at a distance. I really doubt that supporting these already obnoxious people would help them to be more realistic or respectful of a tribes boundaries.

I can also understand why the tribes that have managed to survive are hesitant to formally include descendents - even when they appear to be concerned for the welfare of the tribe.

One of the things I have repeatedly seen get acted out on this message board is how people get involved seeming to care about the issues, but it quickly becomes obvious what they really care about is promoting themselves and a political agenda which serves distant descendents or people making bogus claims to be NDN. Just in discussions in cyberspace that can be annoying , but in a serious real life struggle, with friends like that - who needs enemies... 

If in some areas people are noticing tribal people are becoming less welcoming to distant relatives , I would guess that having to deal with more and more people like this would be a contributing factor.
 
There was a time when I also believed there was probably a lot of familes that had hidden their Native ancestry, and descendents of these families now were having a hard time proving this. Recent DNA studies have caused me to rethink this...

mtDNA only shows the origins of a persons matrilineal line ( the female version of the patrilineal line that passes on the surname ). While this doesn't prove or disprove the entire ancestry of any ancestor, it does provide a small window to objectively examine the general nature of these claims, and people with a story that great grandma was an Indian vastly outnumber people who's mtDNA shows great grandma's matrilineal line originated on this continent.

In the link below is several pages of people reporting the origins of their matrilineal line as shown by DNA testing, and what they had previously heard about their matrilineal line.
 
http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-kerchner/mtdna.cgi

I am not including people in South America , in what I am saying here, as this population has a generally large amount of Native descent.

Just on this first page , 12 of the people of North American descent who reported being told their matrilineal line was American Indian  , also reported finding this line originated in Europe.

This compares to at most 1 or 2 people who confirmed an indigenous matrilineal line which was not already well documented.

I have seen this pattern repeat in other reports of DNA results, and I would guess that these reported results don't include a lot of people who believed they had an indigenous matrilineal line and who got European results- as some of these people would probably not want to admit the family story wasn't true .

What is really striking, is although there is a few people who found a previously unheard of African matrilineal line, I have yet to see one person who was not adopted , report a previously unheard of indigenous matrilineal line!!!!

If even a small percentage of the stories about people hiding their Native ancestry were true, I would expect a substanial number of people to be reporting their matrilineal line was unexpectedly found to originate on this continent. People reporting finding a hidden Native ancestor are pretty much non existent.

To put this another way, if a family had a story one of their ancestors in a small town of 10 families, was a large family surnamed Jack, normally there would be quite a few families in the small town who would inherit this surname. 

Because the large majority of stories are not supported by DNA evidence, I think Black Wolf's skepism about many of these claims is justified and reasonable.  So between this and people who are descendents with exagerated sense of entitlement , I can see where integrating these people would be a real  problem.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 02, 2009, 08:28:58 pm
Moma_porcupine,

You hit it right on the nail. You pretty much summed it up.   I don't know the exact numbers of people who claim Cherokee heritage, but it’s probably close to a million, (maybe more).  I think one of the censuses alone some years back showed it was over 500,000.  And that’s just those reporting it on the census.  If anyone here has been in the Southeast, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, etc., then they would know that there are literally places you can go, where at least half of the population (excluding immigrants) says that they are part Cherokee.  People can test this themselves if they are ever in the South East.  And it may not be as pronounced as it is in the South East, but you can go virtually anywhere in this country and find people who claim Cherokee ancestry.  So, you have about 320,000 enrolled Cherokees give or take a few.  (And keep in mind that the Cherokee Nation does not have a minimum BQ requirement).  And, of the rest that claim Cherokee heritage and can’t prove it, only a small percentage would actually have Cherokee heritage, and there are many complicated reasons for this.

I’m not going to say that these people are lying.  (Although some are)  For the most part, these people truly believe it.  And if my grandma told me that I was of a certain heritage, then I’m sure I’m not going to question it either. 

Back in the 1800’s, and early 1900’s, the term “Cherokee” was actually just a generic term for Indian.  Not only was it a generic term for Indian, but it was also a generic term for people of”black African American” and “white ancestry”.  (Mulattos).  The term “Blackfoot/Cherokee” is just one example of this.  This may explain some people’s stories of grandparents with dark skin.


Moma_Porcupine said
Quote
What is really striking, is although there is a few people who found a previously unheard of African matrilineal line, I have yet to see one person who was not adopted , report a previously unheard of indigenous matrilineal line!!!!

To complicate matters even worse, whites who had maybe just the slightest contact with Cherokees back in the 1800’s, now have ancestors who today claim Cherokee ancestry.  (Their ancestor for example may have been a “white trader” who lived on or near Cherokee territory” Also keep in mind that for the most part, the Cherokees integrated the whites, and not the other way around.  That’s why on the Dawes Roll, you have Cherokees with BQ’s of 1/32.  It was mostly white men at the time that had relations with Cherokee women as opposed to “Cherokee men” with “white women”.  It was more socially acceptable by whites for their men to take Indian women than for “white women” to take Indian men.  This has a lot to do with the racism of the time.  And, at the same time, Cherokee society was based on the clan system which was passed on through the woman.  So the children in the 1700’s and 1800’s, regardless of physical appearance or having a white father, would be (in most cases) raised as Cherokees and not as whites. This is just a general statement, as no one can say that there were not cases of mixed bloods who did integrate into the surrounding population, nor that there was the occasional case of the white women marrying the Cherokee man as there probably were some, but it was only a small minority at the time.   

There has been talk before on this site about the Dawes Rolls.  There were about 100,000 that were enrolled in Dawes.  What’s less know, is that there were about 300,000 who tried to get on the rolls but where denied. The reason for this was because they wanted allotments.  So, it would be highly unlikely that Cherokees by blood in Oklahoma would elect not to sign up for Dawes.  Yet, I hear all the time, from people in Oklahoma or that have family from Oklahoma and the surrounding states, that their ancestors ”didn’t sign the rolls” or “hid out”, etc.  I’m not saying that there were not cases like this; just that it was a very, very small minority of people.  So you have a situation today, where the descendents of “white intruders” who tried to get on Dawes, but were denied because they WHERE NOT Cherokee and COULD NOT PROVE that they were Cherokee, now claim to be undocumented Cherokees.  If you really dig deep enough into this whole issue, then you can see why it’s such an emotionally charged issue for some Cherokees.  Especially for those that know the history.  So for those that only see this as an issue of “distant descendents” who are not recognized are really missing seeing the “BIG PICTURE”
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 02, 2009, 09:42:34 pm
Thanks for taking the time to explain this, Blackwolf.  It helps me to understand better.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 03, 2009, 12:35:35 am
And I'd like to add that there's a difference between recognizing a hole that PODIA are falling into and 1. speculating as to if the Federally recognized tribes might be able to do something about it VS. 2. thinking that they are RESPONSIBLE to do something about it or EXPECTING anything from them.

Clearly they are not obligated to do anything, nor do they owe PODIA anything. But it might be in their best interests to do something, if it cut some of these fakes off at the knees.

Cherokee Nation is already doing this with their satellite communities.

Agree completely. I understand the Nations have important business and very pressing concerns, but perhaps by discussing this particular problem some solutions to those other problems may be found or helped along as well.

Thanks for the information on the Cherokee effort. 


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 03, 2009, 12:51:12 am
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"

Little Old Man, I think its casinos.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 03, 2009, 12:59:39 am
ahh, a thread right up my alley...

Without quoting the many things said above that I would like to reply to, I would never the less like to make a few comments. (I will try to restrain myself) ha,ha

There was some talk about descendants of intruders claiming to be Cherokee. Well they were Cherokee. Their father may have been the intruder (trader) but their mother Was and the children and their descendants Are Cherokee. To paint them as anything else is disrespectful.

The Cherokee people had been hit with about a 50% death rate due to disease. They made a deliberate decision to inter-bread with the Whites. And of course that was and is their right. The children were raised by the Tribe and in most cases the father was accepted as well. Unless there was a divorce (very popular). Never the less, no one thought for one second that these offspring were not Cherokee. So why is in question now?

I have had some brief discussions regarding this very thread's issue with some members of the CNO who are at high levels of the government. They are of course firm about their not about to spend their time or resources to prove or dis-prove any claims of heritage of these 500,000 above mentioned people that claim Cherokee ancestry. However,,, With that being said they do see a need to reach out to their members who live at large. This is the reason for the establishment of the satellite communities. These Communities can and do accept for membership people that claim Cherokee ancestry. There has to be at least 60% CNO citizens and membership is not in any way to be confused with citizenship. After a 6 month probation period and a small annual membership dues anyone that thinks they have fallen through the cracks in the floor can find a way to be accepted by the Cherokee community. Acceptance as such is after all what this group needs, and by most standards from way back then and of modern times is what makes one a Cherokee.  

The satellite communities can provide one with anything that a fake tribe could but with one major exception,,, the info that will be taught is not altered and the feeling of belonging should be stronger. It would remove all doubts of being bogus. If one has established their self in one of these communities I don't think for a second that anyone would see them any different than they would a citizen of the CNO.

  I personally think that if these satellite communities take hold and fill the void mentioned by others in this thread that the truly fake tribes will flounder or fizzle. Sure the freedom of religion act will allow another group to pop up but they would be easy to see them for what they are.

And of course I would like to mention the difference between them (fake tribes)  and the few real Tribes that have fallen through the cracks in the BIA's floor. There are Counsel members in the CNO that didn't vote for the inclusion of some of these Tribes in the "Joint Resolution".
(i.e. the Lumbees) and I'm sure there are a dozen or so of these such Tribes. I know that I am not the only one that thinks that the Task Force should spend their time going after the true Fakes and not to just toss every tribe into the bad apple barrel.  

In the wake of the people that died in a fake sweat lodge I think that it is very important to go after the fake tribes from a cultural aspect and not to give the impression that it has anything to do with money. after all the BIA says that any money that a State tribe gets is "left over" money that the Fed. Tribe would not have gotten anyway.  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 03, 2009, 01:00:39 am
Again, I think this term is misleading "PODIA" for the above mentioned reasons.  I prefer the term "people who claim Cherokee" ancestry in regards to those claiming to be Cherokee and can't prove it. Its more accurate and its a neutral word. 

Blackwolf, MamaPorcupine, I can't speak specificallly to the Cherokee, or Cherokee nation, given the specifics of tribal enrollment in those cases, but there really are real PODIA in fact, with DNA to prove it.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 03, 2009, 01:26:25 am
I am surprised that the CNO did not ask that applicants provide as much genealogical information as they could, and DNA test results. The 60% CNO number for a satellite community seems high, but that's their decision.

The thought of the political power of the Cherokee if even 1/3 of those who are claiming descent actually do have it and become involved keeps coming to my mind.

The other thought that keeps coming to me is that I am back east, and do not know the politics of Oklahoma, nor of the Cherokee in Oklahoma or back in the Qualla lands. But then that is their business. It will be interesting to follow Cherokee affairs and see what may be applicable to the Shawnee.



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 03, 2009, 01:41:10 am
I am surprised that the CNO did not ask that applicants provide as much genealogical information as they could, and DNA test results. The 60% CNO number for a satellite community seems high, but that's their decision.

The thought of the political power of the Cherokee if even 1/3 of those who are claiming descent actually do have it and become involved keeps coming to my mind.

The other thought that keeps coming to me is that I am back east, and do not know the politics of Oklahoma, nor of the Cherokee in Oklahoma or back in the Qualla lands. But then that is their business. It will be interesting to follow Cherokee affairs and see what may be applicable to the Shawnee

I tend to think that over the course of the 6 months probation period that ones linage would be discussed in an informal way. But never the less the discussion should have names pop up that would be recognized. As for DNA I tend to think that they feel it is still in it's infancy so it may not carry the same weight that ones personality and linage would at this time. (just my thoughts, I may not have said that just right )

<The thought of the political power of the Cherokee if even 1/3 of those who are claiming descent actually do have it and become involved keeps coming to my mind.>

Please explain???
 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 03, 2009, 02:37:39 am

Paul123 said
Quote
There was some talk about descendants of intruders claiming to be Cherokee. Well they were Cherokee. Their father may have been the intruder (trader) but their mother Was and the children and their descendants Are Cherokee. To paint them as anything else is disrespectful.

Paul, I wasn't talking about the descendants of white intruders and Cherokees.  I agree with you.  The descendents of these people would yes, be Cherokeee.  I was talkling about the descendents of white intruders who "did not" intermix with the Cherokees
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 03, 2009, 04:40:52 am
Reading this all very interesting information.  My thoughts..  why are people so lost that if one great grandmom was Cherokee (or any other) and all the rest were white/european... I mean, what am I missing?  I guess I'm reading this and feeling confused.  Do these people have no family feeling connection to their more recent and more 'abundant' blood portions? 

I don't understand the 'drive' within someone to go seeking membership/acceptance from a tribe because one relative in a long chain of relatives was Cherokee or other tribe.  I think it's bogus.  I think, a white European baby born into a tribe and 'raised' within the culture is more 'ndn' than any of these folks with great grandma being ndn. 

Blood is well, ok.. so, it doesn't 'mean' that much to me... not as much as the 'family fold' even if you're not of the same blood, if it's where you've been raised, and taught, if it's your home, family and culture..  that speaks more to me than someone with great grandma being of the tribe. 

I mean, sure, a full blood is going to have family roots, history.. but someone with a drop of 'great' grandma's blood? 

Either these people want in because there's a monetary gain, OR they are truly lost folks who need something to make them feel special, never realizing their own more abundant family roots/history is just as special.  Lost people.  It's sad.  :(

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 03, 2009, 11:05:37 am
Reading this all very interesting information.  My thoughts..  why are people so lost that if one great grandmom was Cherokee (or any other) and all the rest were white/european... I mean, what am I missing?  I guess I'm reading this and feeling confused.  Do these people have no family feeling connection to their more recent and more 'abundant' blood portions? 

I don't understand the 'drive' within someone to go seeking membership/acceptance from a tribe because one relative in a long chain of relatives was Cherokee or other tribe.  I think it's bogus.  I think, a white European baby born into a tribe and 'raised' within the culture is more 'ndn' than any of these folks with great grandma being ndn. 

Blood is well, ok.. so, it doesn't 'mean' that much to me... not as much as the 'family fold' even if you're not of the same blood, if it's where you've been raised, and taught, if it's your home, family and culture..  that speaks more to me than someone with great grandma being of the tribe. 

I mean, sure, a full blood is going to have family roots, history.. but someone with a drop of 'great' grandma's blood? 

Either these people want in because there's a monetary gain, OR they are truly lost folks who need something to make them feel special, never realizing their own more abundant family roots/history is just as special.  Lost people.  It's sad.  :(



Well I have to disagree with you here. I think???
It's hard to tell where you are coming from here, in one paragraph you say that blood doesn't mean that much and then in the next you poke fun because they are someone with a drop of 'great' grandma's blood?
 
There are thousands of people with that yearning.  I for one am one of those.  I have money (not a lot, but enough), family, friends, social involvement, Faith and education.  I'm not lost or sad,,, nor are the thousands of others (well may be a few). You can easily poke fun at them because you don't understand them by belittling them with statements about a low BQ of their granny. That's your choice.  I guess that's human nature. If you don't understand it that's cool, I don't either, If on the other hand it's just because they weren't raised in the culture,,, well trust me it wasn't their choice, and I see nothing wrong with wanting to learn about it now.

I will remind you that the CNO has card carrying members with low BQ's. the lowest is I think 1/4047th, They have Counsel members with 1/256th. I'd love to explain to ya that they have a granny with a low BQ  too, so what does that have to do with being NDN? or are we back to the card thingy? You may not even be aware of what you just did. What you did was to accept a very low BQ from a citizen by saying that blood doesn't mean that much and then put down someone else that doesn't have a card because of a low BQ. I won't tell you how to think but, if it were me, I'd put them down because of who they are, not who their granny was. but that's just me,,,

There is a person in the CNO doing their dissertation for their PhD  on this very subject. I asked if that person was considering the spiritual side of things to explain it. All I got for an answer was a small smile and a wink. I dunno,, could be something here that no one else is putting into the picture. Perhaps only an Indian Doctor would know, and they won't say.   

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 03, 2009, 01:49:15 pm
Well said, Paul! I have to add, Great grandmothers are not so distant. I knew two of mine as a child.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 03, 2009, 02:28:41 pm
I'm sorry you thought I was poking fun at anyone.  And I'm sorry you thought I was putting someone down.  Wasn't. 

I don't believe there is anything more 'special' about ndn blood/dna than any other blood/dna and that the yearning would be there regardless, a yearning for whatever 'spiritual' or whatever it is that is felt.  If a whole white person has a yearning, should we pity them because they have no ndn blood therefore, can't get their foot in the door? Many people have the same yearning you talk of, but are not of ndn descent. 

And I still don't believe that blood/dna from one relative is more important than the blood/dna from another relative. 

I guess I am not able to completely express my self, so I will leave it.  Just know I am not putting anyone down or poking fun at them, but that psychological reasons, I believe, are at play here, more so than having 1/4047 of ndn blood. 

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 03, 2009, 03:34:33 pm
EP Groundine

Quote
I can't speak specificallly to the Cherokee, or Cherokee nation, given the specifics of tribal enrollment in those cases, but there really are real PODIA in fact, with DNA to prove it.

I didn't say there isn't any such thing as PODIAs. That's obviously not true...

I also didn't say I thought mtDNA should be used to draw conclusions about any individuals ancestry , as it only shows the matrilineal line. What it is useful for is showing the big picture and general heritage of a group.

What I did say , which is based on the evidence I have seen , is that for every real person of distant ancestry there is about 9 others making unfounded claims. I have also seen this in people i have met , when you begin asking questions about their family, but mtDNA evidence is more easy to present here.

I agree that a great grandmother can be a large influence. A great grandparent can also be no influence at all. It all depends on the family and community a person grew up in.

I know a number of people who are 1/4 or 1/8 , who didn't grow up in a Native community and didn't have much contact with their grandparent and while they all have stories about their family and an interest in all their history , they don't feel any sense of not belonging in the culture they live in , or a "longing" to reconnect. And I have asked. Some of these folks I know very well.

The difference is probably that the tribes these peoples ancestors came from
have very restrictive enrollment policies , and there is no perception that people with a similar line of descent have the ability to enroll, while unfairly, they do not.

It seems the CNO's enrollment criteria which allows extremely distant descendents to be enrolled, is frequently used as a justification and inspiration by wannabes. 

I agree that this can depend a lot on individual circumstances, and even a small amount of ancestry can have a voice to some people, but what Critter is saying about the importance of this depending on a combination of what is in the head and what is in the blood, is, IMO , entirely correct 

And I didn't hear anything in what Critter said that sounded like putting anyone down or poking fun at anyone - though maybe the common sense in their words made Paul feel foolish ... Accusing Critter of poking fun and putting people down  just seems to me to be the often used tactic, of trying to play the victim , when in fact, most of these people aren't victims of anything. IMO , the real victims is the Native people who are expected to take care of the unrealistic demands of a group where probably 9 out of 10 of the people are discontented non-natives who are confused about their family background .......   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 03, 2009, 03:55:21 pm
CNO only allows enrollment of people that are directly decended from folks on the Dawes rolls. Blood quantum is irrelevant. You can be a distant decendant and be able to prove it with other documentation and be SOL. I am not complaining, I fully support the soveriegnty of the CNO to decide who can and cannot be citizens. Just pointing this out.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 03, 2009, 04:37:34 pm
Well, my either or statement was probably wrong to say.  I'm sure there's people who are just interested in their family ancestry.

I have Russian/Lithuanian on one side, and German on the other.  I find myself more drawn to the Russian/Lith side, however, that is a psychological thing.  The German side is there and just as relevant to who I am dna/blood wise.  I've never met either of my grandfathers.  I did meet both of my grandmothers.  My Lith grandmother sat with my father one day and described where she came from, how they lived in a hut with the ground as the floor, and chickens and pigs were brought in at night so they wouldn't be stolen/eaten by wild animals or other peoples.  As a child, that story was more interesting to me.  Naturally, I grew up with a more 'interested' draw to that side of the family history.  Someone could say it's my 'blood' and I should go and hunt down these folks and join them and be one of them.  It's not.  It's my childhood fancy of living in a hut with animals.  The German side could have just as interesting stories, but they were not told to me.

All I'm trying to say in my posts above is that I don't believe having a bit of blood from one ancestor or another is the 'driving' factor.  Most people living in America know something of ndn's.  Have heard, read, told interesting stories that create a childhood fancy.. a romanticism perhaps.  Then, finding out you have the blood..  well, it drives people.  It even drives people who do not have any ndn blood.  

Now, I'm not talking about people who really did have grandparents or great grandparents who were ndn and as children, then as adults feel kinship and wish to open and learn that side of their family history and be part of it.  But I do see as I see myself, one side playing more importance than the other simply due to the psychological effect.  So, I was trying to say why don't.. or if.. these people also go after the other 'blood' in their ancestry?  And if not... why not?  It's not any less than the ndn blood imo.  No one group/set of peoples is more or less than another.  All come from somewhere down the line, a tribe of some kind, culture, belief.

The fascination and obsessions some people place on one group or another is psychological in nature, and can be detrimental, or can be a blessing.  Just depends really.  

I see tons of people wanting ndn spirituality.  I perceive that way back when, the Europeans came and tried to decimate the ndn populations by converting them by trying to beat their culture/spirituality out of them.. and now a days, well, it's unlawful to do such, so instead, they try to decimate them by diluting their culture and spiritual ways.  I don't believe they do so consciously and intently.  But every time I see a new age sweat lodge or books on the topic or any other new age pseudo ndn BS, I can't help but think that the 'enemy' is still at it, still trying to decimate the Native culture and spirituality of this (and other) lands.  

So, I think that having a flood of peoples coming into native culture based on a drop or two of ndn blood is a serious situation.  And needs to be looked at very closely.  I commend the tribes that have a limitation to such descendants.  It helps to keep their culture and spirituality 'safe'.

I think if you are a descendant, no matter how distant, there is a right way to approach it, and simply signing up and claiming it as your own is not a 'right' and 'respectful' way.  And I think if a person were truly concerned, they would know this, and help to prevent the dilution of such cultures and spirituality.  And perhaps even forgo the signing up, as a respectful way of keeping such culture/tribe intact.


Edited:  I forgot to say Thanks Moma P.  :)



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 03, 2009, 06:49:32 pm
I am really glad that this conversation is happening. I think it is an important one.

I know we are talking in generalities here, but I’m going to get specific here and write my story of Cherokee ancestry and let y'all pick it apart for me.

I was born in Durant, Oklahoma in 1953.  My mother was born and raised in Bennington, Oklahoma. Her grandmother (her father's mother - yup, my great grandma) said she was Cherokee. She lived right next to my mother and helped raise her. My mother also helped to take care of her as she got older. I knew her as a child. She died in 1969. She was the source of my mother's information.

As long as I can remember, I have known about my Cherokee ancestry. The story that I was told growing up was as follows:

My great-grandmother’s mother died when she was 4, leaving three little Cherokee girls without a mother. Her father remarried a white woman who did not like Indian ways and raised these little girls as white. My great-grandmother resented that she had no pictures of her real mother and apparently was not too fond of her stepmother.

My great grandmother complained to my mother that she did not get on the rolls because her husband delayed taking her to town and by the time she got there the applications were closed.

This was what we were told as children growing up in the '50s. No stories of hiding it or dropping off the trail. No stories of the trail at all. No princesses.

Several years ago I started doing genealogy work in earnest and I found that my great-grandmother had older siblings that my branch of the family had not been aware of. In addition 7 of my grandfather's first cousins had been students at Carlisle Indian School. Surprisingly, they are listed as Delaware. I have found several distant cousins of my generation who have also been doing genealogy research and they also report never hearing anyone in the family mention Delaware and always being told that the Indians in our family were Cherokee. I do not have an explanation for this but push come to shove, I'll believe a consistent oral history in multiple branches of the family over something a white bureaucrat wrote. I’m guessing my mixed blood ancestors were also mixed tribe.

I have also recently found a Confederate Service Record with my great great grandfather's name, for the First Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, which was part of Stand Waite's Confederate troops. We are looking for more information to confirm that it is him, but the dates and location are correct, and I believe it to be him.

In addition, my mother had DNA done on her cousin who is the last direct female descendant of my great-grandmother and on her (my mother's) brother. Both have indigenous DNA.

Does this make me Indian? NO! NO! A thousand times NO!  I will say again and emphatically, I accept and support the sovereignty of the three federally recognized Cherokee tribes and their total right to establish who can and cannot be a Cherokee citizen. Period.

Does it make me a descendant?  I think so.

I will say this; all those folks Momma P. and BlackWolf have been talking about make it difficult for real descendants. We are guilty until proven innocent.

I will also say, I have never felt white. I have never felt as if I fit into mainstream American white society, for many reasons, not just being of mixed heritage. And I am clearly not Indian either. And I’m really ok with that. Creator has a purpose for folks who are outside the circle too. We challenge assumptions which is always a good thing. Gets people thinking.

Also, I do not practice American Indian spirituality or claim to be “walking the red road” or any of that other stuff. Don’t have an “Indian name”.  Well, my given name means “spruce” in Cherokee, (so now all you Cherokee speakers know my real name) and it is a family name passed down from a great Aunt, but I really don’t think that’s significant.

I am just really heartbroken and angry about what happened to my ancestors and what continues to happen to Indian people today and want somehow to make a difference.

I want folks like me to have a way to express this and be a positive force in the world, instead of being sucked in by the phony tribes and frauds.

Ok, <cringe > have at it!

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 03, 2009, 07:18:32 pm
Everyone should see this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp7Z4eiEuaw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp7Z4eiEuaw)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 03, 2009, 08:07:43 pm
Hi Taraverti

I don't want to pick you apart - and I'll stick up for you if anyone else does!

I don't think descendents like yourself are creating the problems, though sometimes perhaps descendents who don't know any better can support people who are . I have never had the impression you don't know better , and although I am sort arguing on the other side of this, I have no problem understanding that for many reasons people can feel impacted, influenced by, or connected with this part of their heritage.

I say I have seen Native people be kind and welcoming to PODIAs, but that doesn't mean there is no way to alienate people. There is places only some people can go, songs only some people can sing, clothes that shouldn't be worn on some occasions , questions that shouldn't be asked, and boundaries that just shouldn't be crossed, or you will find yourself very clearly not being welcome.

What rubs me the wrong way is when people say they just want to belong, and then they do things they know full well will make the people they claim they want to belong to, feel mistrustful . And this is very clearly what people are setting up for themselves when they argue on behalf of descendents having a right to claim to be a tribe / band Nation ect .

And then everyone's supposed to feel sorry for these people ...  ::)

It seems to me, that instead of complaining about not being welcomed , people would do better to ask themselves what they or their cousins did to wear out their welcome, and look for ways to remedy this. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 03, 2009, 11:36:11 pm
I'm sorry you thought I was poking fun at anyone.  And I'm sorry you thought I was putting someone down.  Wasn't. 


I guess I am not able to completely express my self, so I will leave it.  Just know I am not putting anyone down or poking fun at them, but that psychological reasons, I believe, are at play here, more so than having 1/4047 of ndn blood. 



critter,
I too have trouble expressing my self,

I did say that It's hard to tell where you are coming from on this. Please read inquisitiveness in my statement not harshness. I don't think that either of us would have miss-read each other if we were talking to each other in person. it is hard to express such things in text form.

I do think that we agree on more than we disagree.   

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 03, 2009, 11:41:41 pm
Quote
Surprisingly, they are listed as Delaware. I have found several distant cousins of my generation who have also been doing genealogy research and they also report never hearing anyone in the family mention Delaware and always being told that the Indians in our family were Cherokee.

Its interesting you say that, because we have thousands of citizens of the Cherokee Nation today who are Delaware and Shawnee by blood as opposed to Cherokee.  This has to do with a treaty.  Have you ever looked up their names on Dawes or other Cherokeee Rolls taraveti.  

1899-1906 was when they would have had to apply to Dawes.  


Since your geneology involves Oklahoma, this is a good organization that may be able to assit your research and answer questions about the Delaware issue.
http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html (http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 04, 2009, 12:00:23 am
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 04, 2009, 01:10:33 am
Paul, thank you.

Taraverti, I don't think you should feel like you're doing something wrong.  I know I wrote out my feelings/thoughts on this, but it wasn't in regards to people like you.  It was in regards to the 1000's that just want to be ndn.. or who are up in the clouds about their ancestry and not seeing the reality of the situation. 

There are  A LOT of people who clamor for ndn spirituality, but over look the ndn part of it. The culture and what.  That's what I see about it.  And that's why I think it should be guarded more than just open, so it doesn't get diluted.. like that video ... I watched that.  It's sad.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 04, 2009, 02:20:46 am
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.










Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 04, 2009, 03:29:26 am
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

Paul, by that logic, why am I not British, or French, or Scotch, or German, or Welsh? I wasn't kidding in that other thread about being a direct descendant of Edward the III. So by your logic, why aren't I a member of the royal family of Britian?

This is also my family:

http://www.pamplin.net/pamplin/ligon.htm

It would be silly for me to claim to be Royal based on this, so why is my Cherokee heritage any different?

Apart from that I believe not claiming to be Cherokee is suportive of the soveriegnty of the Cherokee tribes. So it's partly a purposeful thing on my part to draw that line. To make a point. When there are so many fake Cherokee out there disrespecting the Nations, I am taking an opposite stance.
 
But I absolulely love what you are doing with the sattelite community. And if the CNO ever decides to do anything near Philadlephia, I will be the first in line.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 04, 2009, 03:59:36 am
Paul I just wanted to add, that I know my position on that is a little odd, and I do not mean to imply that other people should feel the same.

I am a bit of a gadfly and a bit oppositional by nature and I will purposely do things sometimes to try and make people think about things.

Plus, it's not about me. It's about what is in the best interests of the Cherokee people.

And that is why I keep asking this question:

As a descendant, what choices can I make that will support the wellbeing of the Indian Nations?

For me, for now, this is the answer.

And I still think you should learn the language. ;)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 04, 2009, 04:22:51 am
Quote
Surprisingly, they are listed as Delaware. I have found several distant cousins of my generation who have also been doing genealogy research and they also report never hearing anyone in the family mention Delaware and always being told that the Indians in our family were Cherokee.

Its interesting you say that, because we have thousands of citizens of the Cherokee Nation today who are Delaware and Shawnee by blood as opposed to Cherokee.  This has to do with a treaty.  Have you ever looked up their names on Dawes or other Cherokeee Rolls taraveti.  

1899-1906 was when they would have had to apply to Dawes.

  


Since your geneology involves Oklahoma, this is a good organization that may be able to assit your research and answer questions about the Delaware issue.
http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html (http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html)

Thank you so much BlackWolf. I will check it out.

Slowly but surely I am filling in the blanks. I almost think they appear when they are ready. I had been looking for information about my great grandfather for several years with no luck, and the day after I went to Carlisle to participate in White Bison's Journey of Forgiveness, and prayed for his grandchildren, that Civil War record with his name on it showed up almost out of the blue.

Cousins also show up periodically with little pieces of information. It's been wonderful.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 04, 2009, 10:24:20 am


Paul, by that logic, why am I not British, or French, or Scotch, or German, or Welsh? I wasn't kidding in that other thread about being a direct descendant of Edward the III. So by your logic, why aren't I a member of the royal family of Britian?

I simply gave you my opinion, As I said,,, I think you to be Cherokee. If you choose not to think of yourself as such, that is your decision (both of my parents did the same, (each of them were 1/4)). If you choose to put some other word in front or behind the name, that too is up to you. The British, or French, or Scotch, or Germans all have Citizenship requirements too, and if for some reason you choose to move to France and apply for citizenship I'm sure that with time you would be able to meet all of their requirements. Then you would be a French/Cherokee. ha,ha.

The Cherokee Nation is no different it's just that some people that may wish to gain Citizenship can't and they know this. It does seem that they have came up with an alternative to fill that void.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 04, 2009, 01:42:21 pm

I simply gave you my opinion, As I said,,, I think you to be Cherokee.

Paul, this touched me. And if the Cherokee Nation ever started naturalizing citizens, I'd probably attempt to jump through any hoop they wanted me to.

Meanwhile, it's good to be able to continue to learn and connect with people.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 04, 2009, 03:16:57 pm
Paul
Quote
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ...

And then I saw this posted over at Indianz.com , written by David Cornsilk which fits in with this train of thought perfectly

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38820

Quote
Even if you proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you had some long distant Cherokee ancestor, neither I, nor any single Cherokee citizen could declare you a Cherokee anymore than a single Brit could make you a British subject just because you have English ancestry. Get with the program, the Cherokee governments are NATIONS. Our citizens are nationals of our government. There are no other Cherokees out there. There can't be, because if there are, then our institutions don't matter. If someone has a long distant Cherokee ancestor, that's all they have. Neither that ancestor, nor whatever so called Cherokee blood that might still pass through the veins, can make you a Cherokee. Only the Cherokee people, conglomerate, speaking with one voice through their governing documents can legitimately say who is and who is not a Cherokee. The word Cherokee belongs to the Cherokee people (US), even though it is not a word originating with us. We and only we, the legitimate Cherokee people of the UKB, CNO, CN, EBC can designate that name and special status upon someone. You cannot legitimately take it for yourself without our permission.

And if, by some slim chance you do have a long distant Cherokee ancestor, I'd be willing to call you a Cherokee descendant, but that is all I could call you or you could ever be. It is just the same as the fact that I descend from an Italian, but I am NOT Italian. I am not a national of Italy, I am only a descendant. Sure I can go around and brag about being part Italian and sometimes do. But there is no Italian government here to take offense and I'm sure not forming a group and trying to claim to be a West Italy.

When you diminish our nationality to a mere speck of blood, and then lay claim to it because of some alleged speck of blood you say you possess, you diminish the status of the indigenous governments. You infer that our governments and our institutions are of no consequence. By your argument, the only thing that matters is unity, but with whom? We are already unified. Why would we want to unify with people who can't prove anything and are otherwise foreigners to us.

David Cornsilk

Maybe some parts of this aren't appropriate to the people here's specific circumstances, but the basic request that people respect the right of the Cherokee Nations to determine who is and who is not Cherokee, would still apply. Taraverti obviously understands and respects this, but I'm not sure Paul does...

EP Groundine
Quote
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.

I feel like a bit of a wet blanket , continuing to press this issue, because I really do understand that the need to have this acknowledged can go deep, and if a family decided to not be Native or of Native descent, or to not talk about this , there is often some trauma associated with this which can echo down through several generations, and it seems being able to acknowledge this and be acknowledged is sometimes a very real need in peoples healing process.

Which is all the more reason not to sabatoge you and your cousins hopes to be acknowledged, by offending the people who have the actual authority to do this ...     

In my own opinion, the one thing descendents might rightly be entitled to is counciling services that are sensitive to Native people and some of the issues descendents can face, as sometimes the effects are very real and these people do need culturally appropriate support. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 04, 2009, 09:19:10 pm

 I have found so many things in this thread that are totally inconsistent that would think it would give people more questions then answers.

 For instance let me start with the word descendant here.

 In the terms I often hear descendant used both on this site and elsewhere, it means a person who descends from a tribe but for some reason is not enrolled.

  However I know a person born and raised on their rez, and who does know their culture and ways very well who is considered a  "descendant" because though their own mother is enrolled, they themselves do not fit their tribes BQ enrollment requirements because they have more Mexican and blood of a few other California tribes in their ancestry then they do of their tribe. This of course is their mother's fault and not their own.

 So in this regards, the word descendant is some ways a political word that really doesn't always mean if somebody is NDN or not, but rather if their tribe recognizes them. In many of these cases the community and traditional people might recognize individuals that fall under these circumstances as NDN and one of their people when their tribe does not.

 In cases like this, and because of cases like this; though I do fully support tribal sovereignty I do not think the choices they make necessarily are always the best for NDN people. I also do not think that the decisions they make necessarily should be the final answer regarding if somebody is NDN or not.

 Often times out here in California the decisions tribal governments make are not fully accepted by the populace. In this regards I am speaking of the hundreds upon hundreds of dis-enrollments tribal governments here make in which their own tribal members object to, and most often still regard those whom have been dis-enrolled as NDN's from their tribe. I have seen this with my own eyes.


 If the word descendant is equal to the word PODIA at times in a sense that it means somebody coming from a family that has not had connection to a tribe and the NDN person they claim to be from in so many generations that they can't prove a single thing; then in that situation I would see the rationale behind that since to embrace those such people as whom they claim to be would be detrimental to the tribe and NDN people in general.

 Another point to be made is that a tribe such as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma will enroll anyone regardless of their BQ, while a tribe whom the same as them by blood such as the EBC has it's cut off at 1/16  by blood.

 So in this case with the EBC, anyone whom is less then 1/16 would be a descendant regardless if they have proof or not, while the CNO will enroll anyone with a relation on the Dawes no matter how low the BQ. So in these cases the term PODIA and descendant are based on different standards in regards to people that are technically of the same people but are members of, or attempting to gain membership in two tribal governments that used to be the same people politically at one time,and always by blood and relation.

 Furthermore, in both tribal governments there is no stipulation in the enrollment process that dictates one must be knowledgeable in Cherokee culture whatsoever. So a person whom is 1/512 or 1/16, and NON Cherokee in culture could enroll. In both cases, a person such as this would be deemed a PODIA on this very board and lectured for claiming to be from one of those tribes if they were not enrolled. Now if they were enrolled they would be "legally" NDN and nobody here could really say a word unless they were exploiters or saying things that were not true.

 In the situation of taraverti, I personally see no harm in him acknowledging or saying he is Cherokee as long a he is recognizing and respecting the boundaries set before him based on non enrollment, and I am guessing not part of any legitimate Cherokee community. Going by the information he presented I don't feel he falls under the term PODIA, and he is only a descendant by legal terms rather then by blood terms that would also make him a PODIA, which he does not seem to be.

 I think taraverti would for the moment fall under the terms I read John Cornsilk refer to as "outtalucks" because they claim to be, but for some reason is  not enrolled and may not be able to be.

 Now for an issue of mine I have with some on this board, which is what seems to be their inability to see the world through eyes and life experiences other then their own.

 I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled. Of course this situation and their life experiences based on this matter have given them a viewpoint that I would say is based primarily by their experiences. To be honest most of what I read them say on here passed that seems to be based on what I feel is nothing more then book knowledge of NDN's.

 The issue I have with them, and a number of others on here is that they seem to make decisions and judgments here on people based their personal experiences alone, and those personal experiences I feel are just theirs, and not based on living in or having contact with an NDN community off of the internet.

 On a typical basis I see them make comments similar to  "if you are not enough NDN by blood to be facing discrimination, then you are not really NDN." To me such a view point and statement shows that they most likely are not living in, or dealing with NDN people off of the internet. I know full bloods that have grand kids are low BQ totally white looking that are considered as NDN by the community they live in regardless if they are enrolled or not. I know of such things in communities I am not even a part of, but have been told of by members of various communities.

 Being NDN was never something based on how much discrimination a person was going through in their lives. Of course never was the concepts of BQ or enrollment until the coming of NONs and the social  institutions and concepts they set up. Issues of BQ, enrollment, lack there of, cultural awareness/lack of, full blood vs mixed blood, high bq vs low etc etc do give us all different experiences and views of the world.  A full blood living traditionally on the rez I will concede is the truest to what it means to be NDN, and did prior to the coming of NONs, however the other circumstances I mention were brought and created by NONs coming here and causing those issues in NDN country. Those issues should be used against some, and their status as an NDN person being denied of them because they are not facing some sort of discrimination because of being NDN. That might not really fit into this thread, but I do see it come up in similar threads, and I usually say nothing to avoid a conflict with that person.


 Though I am not in this thread advocating that anyone claiming some NDN ancestor or ancestry is NDN or should be considered as such; I am pointing out there are loop holes in much of what has been discussed here and the terms used in the discussion. Some may not like them pointed out for various reasons, but in dealing with people with real emotions and concerns, such things need to be pointed out and discussed.


 


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 04, 2009, 10:07:40 pm
Paul
Quote
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ...

And then I saw this posted over at Indianz.com , written by David Cornsilk which fits in with this train of thought perfectly

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38820

Quote
Even if you proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you had some long distant Cherokee ancestor, neither I, nor any single Cherokee citizen could declare you a Cherokee anymore than a single Brit could make you a British subject just because you have English ancestry. Get with the program, the Cherokee governments are NATIONS. Our citizens are nationals of our government. There are no other Cherokees out there. There can't be, because if there are, then our institutions don't matter. If someone has a long distant Cherokee ancestor, that's all they have. Neither that ancestor, nor whatever so called Cherokee blood that might still pass through the veins, can make you a Cherokee. Only the Cherokee people, conglomerate, speaking with one voice through their governing documents can legitimately say who is and who is not a Cherokee. The word Cherokee belongs to the Cherokee people (US), even though it is not a word originating with us. We and only we, the legitimate Cherokee people of the UKB, CNO, CN, EBC can designate that name and special status upon someone. You cannot legitimately take it for yourself without our permission.

And if, by some slim chance you do have a long distant Cherokee ancestor, I'd be willing to call you a Cherokee descendant, but that is all I could call you or you could ever be. It is just the same as the fact that I descend from an Italian, but I am NOT Italian. I am not a national of Italy, I am only a descendant. Sure I can go around and brag about being part Italian and sometimes do. But there is no Italian government here to take offense and I'm sure not forming a group and trying to claim to be a West Italy.

When you diminish our nationality to a mere speck of blood, and then lay claim to it because of some alleged speck of blood you say you possess, you diminish the status of the indigenous governments. You infer that our governments and our institutions are of no consequence. By your argument, the only thing that matters is unity, but with whom? We are already unified. Why would we want to unify with people who can't prove anything and are otherwise foreigners to us.

David Cornsilk

Maybe some parts of this aren't appropriate to the people here's specific circumstances, but the basic request that people respect the right of the Cherokee Nations to determine who is and who is not Cherokee, would still apply. Taraverti obviously understands and respects this, but I'm not sure Paul does...

EP Grondine
Quote
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.

I feel like a bit of a wet blanket , continuing to press this issue, because I really do understand that the need to have this acknowledged can go deep, and if a family decided to not be Native or of Native descent, or to not talk about this , there is often some trauma associated with this which can echo down through several generations, and it seems being able to acknowledge this and be acknowledged is sometimes a very real need in peoples healing process.


Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

Which is all the more reason not to sabatoge you and your cousins hopes to be acknowledged, by offending the people who have the actual authority to do this ...    

Its not a hope to be acknowledged, its simply filling the hole left by that denial. The lingering effects of the conquest and racism. "Shawnee Descendant" is fine. Now how does one live as a Shawnee Descendant?

In my own opinion, the one thing descendents might rightly be entitled to is counciling services that are sensitive to Native people and some of the issues descendents can face, as sometimes the effects are very real and these people do need culturally appropriate support.  

And good luck trying to find anyone who is that skilled.

I simply went out and met with who fate brought me into contact with, the bad, the good, and the very good. Compared notes with the good and very good and learned from them. Learned a lot from the hundred percenters as well.

But I also ran into the predators.

That's why I keep hoping that the Nations will be able to figure out some way to handle this, otherwise NAFPS can take down any one predator, but then another will pop up to run the same cons - spiritual theft, the spiritual predators.

Since your Loyal by descent, there is one woman I know who is hoping for a sit down of the leadership of the Absentee, Loyal, Eastern Remnant and the Canadian Shawnee at Signal Mountain to work through these problems.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 04, 2009, 10:33:58 pm
Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

I understand what you are saying, regarding holes in a person's feeling of ancestry, of not being 'acknowledged' ..  but..  and maybe it's inappropriate for me to say this.. but..

I cannot seem to make the connection between how this is the responsibility of any ndn tribe or nation?  Or how by accepting them without limitation solves the issues they have?

A hole left due to lack of acknowledgment is painful, such holes do not occur just from 'race' non-acknowledgment, but also in lack of acknowledging a person is a person, or is worth while.  We have millions of people on this planet with such holes.  

But to this particular subject, such a person with such a hole may seek to find acceptance and find none.  They have choices.  They can ask for guidance from those rejecting them to point them in a direction where they may learn correctly of what they need to know of their ancestry.. or.. they can begin a search on their own, crossing off those that seem fraudulent.. or..  they can go and buy willy nilly this and that and pay money to any some one who is claiming this or that.

Having been a person, (and still am) with many holes and more.. I cannot possibly ever see putting the blame of what messed up my life on anyone other than myself.  I had choices.  

I do agree that Fraud Awareness should be risen.  It should be in the public eye and on national news so people.. ALL PEOPLE will learn and not suffer from the hands of such charlatans.  

However, I do not see that if ndn tribes/nations just accepted these people that that would heal their holes.  Those issues are personal within, and are a path unto themselves..  and a person has to walk their paths, as many and as varied as they are.  No one can just take away what pains another ..  even if accepted.. that hole will still be there.  That is what I'm trying to say.  It will not just 'disappear'.  

I do not see what you are saying to be a solution to people's pain.  Rejection is a difficult pain, but if a person learns to accept their own self, then it no longer matters who rejects them.

And.. I do not see how not acknowledging these people will keep them from predators.  A person has to have some common sense of their own, I would think.  I just am having a very hard time understanding how a blanket acceptance/invitation to any podia or descendant or whatever term..  would automatically protect them from predators?  They are still vulnerable and available as they were before, if a con man is good enough, he can con anyone.  

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 04, 2009, 10:38:25 pm
Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

I understand what you are saying, regarding holes in a person's feeling of ancestry, of not being 'acknowledged' ..  but..  and maybe it's inappropriate for me to say this.. but..

I cannot seem to make the connection between how this is the responsibility of any ndn tribe or nation?  Or how by accepting them without limitation solves the issues they have?

A hole left due to lack of acknowledgment is painful, such holes do not occur just from 'race' non-acknowledgment, but also in lack of acknowledging a person is a person, or is worth while.  We have millions of people on this planet with such holes. 

But to this particular subject, such a person with such a hole may seek to find acceptance and find none.  They have choices.  They can ask for guidance from those rejecting them to point them in a direction where they may learn correctly of what they need to know of their ancestry.. or.. they can begin a search on their own, crossing off those that seem fraudulent.. or..  they can go and buy willy nilly this and that and pay money to any some one who is claiming this or that.

Having been a person, (and still am) with many holes and more.. I cannot possibly ever see putting the blame of what messed up my life on anyone other than myself.  I had choices. 

I do agree that Fraud Awareness should be risen.  It should be in the public eye and on national news so people.. ALL PEOPLE will learn and not suffer from the hands of such charlatans. 

However, I do not see that if ndn tribes/nations just accepted these people that that would heal their holes.  Those issues are personal within, and are a path unto themselves..  and a person has to walk their paths, as many and as varied as they are.  No one can just take away what pains another ..  even if accepted.. that hole will still be there.  That is what I'm trying to say.  It will not just 'disappear'. 

I do not see what you are saying to be a solution to people's pain.  Rejection is a difficult pain, but if a person learns to accept their own self, then it no longer matters who rejects them.

And.. I do not see how not acknowledging these people will keep them from predators.  A person has to have some common sense of their own, I would think.  I just am having a very hard time understanding how a blanket acceptance/invitation to any podia or descendant or whatever term..  would automatically protect them from predators?  They are still vulnerable and available as they were before, if a con man is good enough, he can can anyone.   


Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 04, 2009, 10:41:36 pm
Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?

Hi, I'm totally NON and just here to help if I can.. and to learn.  Have learned lots so far.  :)

Justice, have not thought of that.  Justice is not a term I know much about, as have not experienced it to know of it.  Can justice be found in what EP is saying?  If so, then that is a good thing!   

Thank you.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 04, 2009, 10:52:13 pm
Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?

Hi, I'm totally NON and just here to help if I can.. and to learn.  Have learned lots so far.  :)

Justice, have not thought of that.  Justice is not a term I know much about, as have not experienced it to know of it.  Can justice be found in what EP is saying?  If so, then that is a good thing!   

Thank you.

Oh ok that's cool. Nothing wrong with you being a NON or anything. I was just curious because it helps me to figure out where somebody is coming from sometimes ya know.

 As for the justice aspect as I mentioned, I don't know really. Perhaps that might be a issue with some people.

 I don't know why some people wish to identify as Indian any more then you do at times.

 I do have a belief why some wish to identify as NDN or be enrolled. My reason for that belief is based on something I learned in ceremony in combination with what I was told by a very well known person in NDN country.

 If I expressed that belief here it may possibly explain about some people and their desires to identify as NDN or be enrolled.

 The thing with my belief however is that I do not think it would be right to put the reasons behind that belief in public view because I do not want to educate fakes and exploiters on some things thus giving them another argument or tool to help them in their vices.

 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: taraverti on November 04, 2009, 11:08:10 pm
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 04, 2009, 11:20:39 pm
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.

 Though I have not read a lot of what E.P has said in this thread, but I do agree with them if that is what they are saying.

 I think the satellite communities being set up by the Cherokee Nation are a step in that direction though. It is giving a lot of these people a sense of belonging if that is what they are after, and at the same times seems to be setting them up to learn real Cherokee culture.

 So in turn this not only helps those doing the searching, but also helps the tribe in possibly fighting off frauds that way, but also preserving the culture by those who are genuinely interested.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 04, 2009, 11:28:36 pm
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.

Thanks.  I agree with what Rattlebone said. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: LittleOldMan on November 05, 2009, 12:11:34 am
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"

 I asked these questions ,post number five, all have been answered in some form.  I would like to hear some more of all of the group's opinions on why I have not run into this issue of state tribes until the last few years thanks "LittleOldMan"   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 05, 2009, 01:48:57 am


When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ..

Of course I didn't mean it that way,,, well the part where you said "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion


That was cool... And I thought it was clear that it was only an opinion,,, (we all have one) ;D  I hope you can see that I never made a decision for any group,,, I only gave MY opinion.  (it's a long path, a year from now my opinion may be different, ya never know)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 05, 2009, 04:05:47 am

 I have found so many things in this thread that are totally inconsistent that would think it would give people more questions then answers.

 For instance let me start with the word descendant here.

 In the terms I often hear descendant used both on this site and elsewhere, it means a person who descends from a tribe but for some reason is not enrolled.

  However I know a person born and raised on their rez, and who does know their culture and ways very well who is considered a  "descendant" because though their own mother is enrolled, they themselves do not fit their tribes BQ enrollment requirements because they have more Mexican and blood of a few other California tribes in their ancestry then they do of their tribe. This of course is their mother's fault and not their own.

 So in this regards, the word descendant is some ways a political word that really doesn't always mean if somebody is NDN or not, but rather if their tribe recognizes them. In many of these cases the community and traditional people might recognize individuals that fall under these circumstances as NDN and one of their people when their tribe does not.

 In cases like this, and because of cases like this; though I do fully support tribal sovereignty I do not think the choices they make necessarily are always the best for NDN people. I also do not think that the decisions they make necessarily should be the final answer regarding if somebody is NDN or not.

 Often times out here in California the decisions tribal governments make are not fully accepted by the populace. In this regards I am speaking of the hundreds upon hundreds of dis-enrollments tribal governments here make in which their own tribal members object to, and most often still regard those whom have been dis-enrolled as NDN's from their tribe. I have seen this with my own eyes.


 If the word descendant is equal to the word PODIA at times in a sense that it means somebody coming from a family that has not had connection to a tribe and the NDN person they claim to be from in so many generations that they can't prove a single thing; then in that situation I would see the rationale behind that since to embrace those such people as whom they claim to be would be detrimental to the tribe and NDN people in general.

 Another point to be made is that a tribe such as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma will enroll anyone regardless of their BQ, while a tribe whom the same as them by blood such as the EBC has it's cut off at 1/16  by blood.

 So in this case with the EBC, anyone whom is less then 1/16 would be a descendant regardless if they have proof or not, while the CNO will enroll anyone with a relation on the Dawes no matter how low the BQ. So in these cases the term PODIA and descendant are based on different standards in regards to people that are technically of the same people but are members of, or attempting to gain membership in two tribal governments that used to be the same people politically at one time,and always by blood and relation.

 Furthermore, in both tribal governments there is no stipulation in the enrollment process that dictates one must be knowledgeable in Cherokee culture whatsoever. So a person whom is 1/512 or 1/16, and NON Cherokee in culture could enroll. In both cases, a person such as this would be deemed a PODIA on this very board and lectured for claiming to be from one of those tribes if they were not enrolled. Now if they were enrolled they would be "legally" NDN and nobody here could really say a word unless they were exploiters or saying things that were not true.

 In the situation of taraverti, I personally see no harm in him acknowledging or saying he is Cherokee as long a he is recognizing and respecting the boundaries set before him based on non enrollment, and I am guessing not part of any legitimate Cherokee community. Going by the information he presented I don't feel he falls under the term PODIA, and he is only a descendant by legal terms rather then by blood terms that would also make him a PODIA, which he does not seem to be.

 I think taraverti would for the moment fall under the terms I read John Cornsilk refer to as "outtalucks" because they claim to be, but for some reason is  not enrolled and may not be able to be.

Now for an issue of mine I have with some on this board, which is what seems to be their inability to see the world through eyes and life experiences other then their own.

 I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled. Of course this situation and their life experiences based on this matter have given them a viewpoint that I would say is based primarily by their experiences. To be honest most of what I read them say on here passed that seems to be based on what I feel is nothing more then book knowledge of NDN's.

 The issue I have with them, and a number of others on here is that they seem to make decisions and judgments here on people based their personal experiences alone, and those personal experiences I feel are just theirs, and not based on living in or having contact with an NDN community off of the internet.

 On a typical basis I see them make comments similar to  "if you are not enough NDN by blood to be facing discrimination, then you are not really NDN." To me such a view point and statement shows that they most likely are not living in, or dealing with NDN people off of the internet. I know full bloods that have grand kids are low BQ totally white looking that are considered as NDN by the community they live in regardless if they are enrolled or not. I know of such things in communities I am not even a part of, but have been told of by members of various communities.

 Being NDN was never something based on how much discrimination a person was going through in their lives. Of course never was the concepts of BQ or enrollment until the coming of NONs and the social  institutions and concepts they set up. Issues of BQ, enrollment, lack there of, cultural awareness/lack of, full blood vs mixed blood, high bq vs low etc etc do give us all different experiences and views of the world.  A full blood living traditionally on the rez I will concede is the truest to what it means to be NDN, and did prior to the coming of NONs, however the other circumstances I mention were brought and created by NONs coming here and causing those issues in NDN country. Those issues should be used against some, and their status as an NDN person being denied of them because they are not facing some sort of discrimination because of being NDN. That might not really fit into this thread, but I do see it come up in similar threads, and I usually say nothing to avoid a conflict with that person.


 Though I am not in this thread advocating that anyone claiming some NDN ancestor or ancestry is NDN or should be considered as such; I am pointing out there are loop holes in much of what has been discussed here and the terms used in the discussion. Some may not like them pointed out for various reasons, but in dealing with people with real emotions and concerns, such things need to be pointed out and discussed.




By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

I don't mind you quoting me, as long as you actually quote and don't ad lib.

I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences? Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian. I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian. If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.



Edit to add: When I hear someone go on and on about feeling Indian in their heart/soul, wanting to honor their Indian ancestors, wanting to reconnect,  I shake my head. This is the battle cry of every PODIA and wannabe out there. Seven of my great-grandparents were European, but I'm only going to honor my one Native American grandparent. How disrespectful is that? You're the sum-total of all your ancestors; you can't pick and choose.

If your closest relative with ties to their Nation died long before you were born, you're a descendant. You are not Indian. To call yourself Indian and think you're entitled to anything is disrespectful. You cannot demand anything; you're not entitled. Heritage groups are fine, as long as they're done in a respectful way. Associate-membership, as some have advocated, is ludicrous. You are not Indian; you are not entitled to even partial-citizenship.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 05, 2009, 06:25:10 pm
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 05, 2009, 06:46:45 pm
I think you're right Earthw7, for whatever that's worth. 

I am not ndn.  I have no desire to be what I am not, your culture interests me but I do not have desire to learn it inside and out and practice your spirituality.  I'm not saying this to offend, it's because I have my own way of thinking and believing, and it has been good to me, and I have no need to swap it for someone else's. 

But I am here, because I perceive an *importance* here that perhaps I cannot describe in words.  But I believe that the ndn culture/spirituality must be kept. 

People who are descendants and whatnots, I don't know, I"m not so I can't really talk about what it is to be one.. but .. and I don't say this to those who are serious and grounded individuals .. but to the fluttering in the sky minded of all this ndn ancestry..  I think you'd serve your ancestors best by fighting to keep the cultures intact.. by not flooding in and grabbing pieces of it for your own self images.

Again, that is NOT saying for everyone..  not for those just gathering history, or filling in the blanks of their ancestry and self..   this is for those who flock just to be ndn..  those who flock like that, imo, are detrimental to ndn culture/spirituality. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 05, 2009, 07:05:05 pm



By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

I don't mind you quoting me, as long as you actually quote and don't ad lib.

I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences? Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian. I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian. If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.



Edit to add: When I hear someone go on and on about feeling Indian in their heart/soul, wanting to honor their Indian ancestors, wanting to reconnect,  I shake my head. This is the battle cry of every PODIA and wannabe out there. Seven of my great-grandparents were European, but I'm only going to honor my one Native American grandparent. How disrespectful is that? You're the sum-total of all your ancestors; you can't pick and choose.

If your closest relative with ties to their Nation died long before you were born, you're a descendant. You are not Indian. To call yourself Indian and think you're entitled to anything is disrespectful. You cannot demand anything; you're not entitled. Heritage groups are fine, as long as they're done in a respectful way. Associate-membership, as some have advocated, is ludicrous. You are not Indian; you are not entitled to even partial-citizenship.

 
Quote
By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

 I didn't start anything. I simply mentioned an issue that I see many people on here do, and cited an example of it without mention of names. In doing so I placed no insults whatsoever in the posting, but rather cited what I felt was people trying to transfer their life experiences on another person based on their lives and not the lives or experiences of the other person.

 You claim I was wrong in my assessment of what I read, and perhaps I was; however many people do that on here. I see a lot of people claiming since their life experience of that of another situation equated to one thing, then is must equate to another person who may have come from a family in similar circumstances.

 If you want to get all emotional or angry about that, then that it is on you. I simply stated something for discussion since this thread seemed to cover a lot of different but connected issues.

Quote
I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

 I am familiar with this detail of your family, and did read you say it a couple times now. Of course I am not sure exactly why you are telling me this now???

 Of course I am not sure if you think you are NDN or not because of this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I however think if you feel you are not because if it, this is not some entitlement for you to say that other people are not NDN with a similar back ground and story as yourself.

Case in point, I have read Moma Porcupine point out on several occasions how people may hold their ancestry very dear to them even if they are not enrolled and their ancestry being rather distant. The effects of colonization and assimilation are strong, but should not be used as a tool against victims of it in order to dictate to them whom they should be identifying with.

 This is not to say I am in support of PODIA's running around claiming they are NDN, and at the same time thinking they are entitled to anything.

 What I am saying however is that I see some on here take such a rigid approach to things in regards to topics like that, to the point it makes me wonder if their only interaction with NDN's is on line in discussion boards such as this.

 I know plenty of full blooded enrolled people, including elders that will accept those who are not enrolled or even so called PODIA's on their word of who they say they are, and watch many in the community see them as NDN all the time.

 I know some on here don't like such things mentioned, and not because of what I say in this regards is untrue, but rather because they don't want to educate some that such things do happen. They feel it might give them ideas on how to sneak into a community. Well that may be true, but honestly bad people with bad intentions are going to do bad things no matter what. So if this board is one about educating people, then I would say those doing the education should hit every angle. Being completely rigid about things is foolishness.

 I know plenty of NDN's who are full blooded and converts to Christianity. One that I know in person is soo strongly catholic that they believe the ways of their people are evil and the work of the devil. They have little to do with other NDN's, and none of their culture obviously. So maybe they are NDN by blood totally, but should I view them as more NDN then some 1/8th person who has a great deal of pride in their ancestry and for reasons known only to them is trying to learn the ways of the people they claim to be from? Especially since the idea of a lot of people on this board seems to point to the concept of being NDN means being the closest thing possible to before Columbus got here.

Quote
Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences?

 Exactly, the issue with this I was getting at was for a lack of better words was maybe transference. Except in this case I am under the impression that many try and make judgments on people based on their life experience, and try to dictate that upon somebody else.

 For instance. I know a Navajo elder who is full blooded, and has a grandson whom is only 1/4 Navajo. I asked her once about the concept of BQ and what she felt her grandson should identify as. She said that choice was his to make, and whatever he identified and considered himself to be she would accept. If he claimed to be Navajo then she would be fine with it. It seems on here that some would say that it would be wrong for him to claim to be Navajo, and that he must acknowledge all of who he was or he would be dishonoring his other ancestry. I think not acknowledging his other ancestry would be foolish since looking at him you would obviously know he was mixed. However being mixed does not have to be his identity, or who he is, or how he identifies himself.

 In thinking of what the Navajo woman told me, and things I have been told by other people; I think about your story about your seven other grandparents that were European.  You seem to think that you must also identify with them or you would be disrespecting them, and I am guessing you also mean that by saying you are NDN is doing the same disrespect???

 Sorry but I don't see things that way. Sure it would be wrong to try and not acknowledge them and foolish since being mixed would obviously show in your appearance. However that does not mean you or anyone else must take on this or that identity because of being mixed. Especially in regards to topic like this which is about community and culture; the ties to it. Identity based on skin color or BQ is a European concept, like it or not. Sure it comes into play in protecting tribes from predators etc, but still the the fact remains that the concept is undeniably European.

I don't know if you consider yourself NDN or not, and it is not for me to judge. However if I knew you associated with other NDN's and were seen as NDN by an NDN community, even if it were not even Cherokee; I would consider you NDN regardless of your BQ or status. That is how I was taught to be by elders I was blessed to have in my life.

 What I see you saying often times is things that are very much the opposite,and that is what makes me wonder how much interaction you have with people off of the net.

Quote
Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

 Well when I see you say things on here that I take as more book then real life experience, what do you expect me to think??

 You seem to think that everyone on here owes you details about their lives at times, but you never really say much about yourself other then your ancestry and why you are not enrolled.

 This is while I have been attacked by you on several occasions with you trying to say how I am not NDN, and yet I have pointed out on just as many occasions that my family still resides in Choctaw country in Oklahoma and is seen as such.  That I live in central California, and am recognized as NDN by people here, and that I do contribute to the NDN community here; my contributions both by things I have helped do as well as money out of my own pocket I have contributed are known as well.

 As far as more of my thoughts about you only citing book things. I gave my arguments on pitfalls I see on words such as descendant, and in some regards even PODIA; including the pitfall of using them to say what a person is or is not. Though I might agree with a number of your opinions in regards to these terms, I often times see you being very rigid on the topic, and wonder how you can be so harsh when dealing with other people. It seems to me that you are so locked on the idea of hunting down exploiters etc at times that you might forget you are dealing with other human beings, many of which mean no harm.

 It's funny, maybe right now you consider yourself a descendant because you are not enrolled; yet I wonder if you would call yourself a Cherokee if you were enrolled? Does that piece of paper in your hand dictate who you are or who you have the right in your family to acknowledge and that acknowledgment of who they are having something to do with who you are??? I personally think not.

I personally don't consider you a PODIA or a descendant, and I could care less if you or your family was assimilated or not. I see you as a Cherokee whom comes from an assimilated family, if you want to learn cultural things to wipe away that assimilation then that is up to you. Of course if you do not see yourself as I see you, then that is your choice and my beliefs on the matter are of no consequence. I don't go by looks, books or paper.

 Another thing that makes me think of you and books is a constant argument you give me over BQ since I came here. What I always found odd about your arguments was that it was contradicting what I was taught by well known elders in my area.

 You see I was taught by an elder that when somebody is in a ceremony they are recognized by their NDN ancestors regardless of their BQ. This is the same thing if and when they cross over.

  Your argument was that they would be met by all of their ancestors regardless of race. Indeed you are right about this, but this debate between you and I was over identity and BQ. So in the context of that debate in which you were trying to pass judgment on others based on BQ, enrollment etc etc; I brought up the case of divinity, and you turned it right back into one about BQ.

  So yea, made me wonder about you, and still does....

Quote
I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian.

Perhaps maybe, I dunno.

Quote
I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian.

 Yea true, but maybe I am wrong about you; just that you come across to me as somebody who bases NDN or not on a rigid set of rules and one of those is enrollment. Oddly enough if this is the case, then are all those people with super duper low BQ getting enrolled in the CNO NDN or not? I see most as just "paper NDN's" myself. Things like that is why I base who is NDN or not more on what the community and the more traditional people say regardless of what a tribal government has to say. Especially in the case of my may dis enrolled friends out here whom are victims of casino money greed.

Quote
If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

 Maybe in most cases you would probably be correct, but not always. I have seen people who were only 1/4, 1/8 look enough NDN to get treated like crap by whites, and then treated like crap by NDN's for being too white.

 Of course some of them who look too NDN to be considered white of low BQ just might decide to look into connecting to the people who's blood in their veins is the reason for being treated bad by whites and stumble to a place like here and get chaffed and criticized for even considering they were NDN due to lack of enough cultural awareness to consider themselves as such.

I guess we can just chalk that off to be a poor PODIA...sucks to be them no matter what they do.

 Also, I used to know a NDN girl in Arizona who was only like 1/8 white and the rest was Navajo. Ironically she was dying or may even be dead now due to a genetic disease that is not found in NDN populations since it was a disease mostly found in Caucasians. She was probably the only NDN to ever have that disease. So my point here is that genetic disease knows no BQ in either direction.

heh, since you like to accuse me of not being NDN or being a PODIA; I guess I will have to chalk the diabetes that has devastated most of my family off to some other reason huh ayes??

Quote
Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.

Hypocrite much????

 I find it odd how you accuse me of twisting your words, and yet you continue constantly make such statements about me.

 This behavior from you goes above and beyond twisting words, and actually goes into you speaking about events that you have zero knowledge of.

  What I seen you do time and time again is read links posted up on here concerning a conflict, and then coming back here making statements about myself and my friends based solely on those threads.

  Maybe it didn't occur to you that there was much more to all of that then just what you seen?

  Maybe it didn't occur to you that the events you only seen a snap shot of had been going on for years and were based on false accusations and attacks being done on a woman who did nothing wrong?

 Maybe it didn't occur to you that the woman being accused of those wrong things had her name cleared of all of that by the fighting that went down and how those defending her proved it.

 Maybe it didn't occur to you that some of those who were involved in making those accusation were sending me and others threats of violence because of it long after the fact until a lot of us and especially myself poked fun at them because of it.

 What I see on here is you always always always making statements about myself and others based on things you obviously only know one side of the story on.

 Then from there I feel as if you come here and tell lies about me when you make such comments, and then take issue when I possibly critique your positions. That my friend is hypocrisy.

 You are old enough to be my mother, and maybe even my grandmother. Taking that into consideration I would expect better from you. Instead I see you make comments about me, and attacks upon me based on things you don't even know about. Never once have you ever spoken to me about any of it, and yet you think because you and I have agreed on a thing or two that I am should respect you or whatever.

 Respect is earned and not given. I do not feel that you have treated me with respect in regards to many issues including those that deal with my own family in which two you know zilch about. So don't expect any from me until you do the same.

 I honestly feel you owe me an apology. I was defending people I loved from attacks, and yet for doing so you make all kinds of false statements about me without ever knowing the full story. Of course if that is how you are going to behave, then I want no friendship from you anyways.


*edited to fix a typo*
  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 05, 2009, 07:08:56 pm
I also agree w/Earth, I'm sooo tired of these people who have weird obsessions or fetish's w/Indian people, who may or may not have somje minuscule or marginal Indian blood. I'm also tired of the emotional cripples coming here and complaining about emptiness in their lives all because of some real or imagined long lost Indian ancestor. You people need to get a grip on yourselves! Or seek some kind of counseling. Your lives are not empty because you can't join an Indian Tribe.


Lim lemtsh,


Diana
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 05, 2009, 07:10:10 pm
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.




I do not think anything you had to say here was wrong. In fact I fully understand where you are coming from on things, especially when I read some of the things you say you have gone through.

 Regardless of the times when I do not agree with what you have to say, you are still somebody I admire, honor and respect.

 I would say you are one of the very few people that makes me want to continue to post in a battlefield like NDNZ.COM.

 It is always good to read your posts and get your perspectives no matter if I agree with you or not.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 05, 2009, 07:31:42 pm
Rattlebone.  Thank you.  You have educated me today.  :)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 05, 2009, 09:13:47 pm
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.




I do not think anything you had to say here was wrong. In fact I fully understand where you are coming from on things, especially when I read some of the things you say you have gone through.

 Regardless of the times when I do not agree with what you have to say, you are still somebody I admire, honor and respect.

 I would say you are one of the very few people that makes me want to continue to post in a battlefield like NDNZ.COM.

 It is always good to read your posts and get your perspectives no matter if I agree with you or not.

thank you I don't want anyone to think that I am saying bad thing just explaining
me.
My granddaughter said one day
grandma why do we have to be Indian?
I told her it is because we are born that way.
I said each person in this world was given a gift
and we as native people have a gift to protect
the land and that is what we must do. We come
from a long line of warriors who fought for our
homeland be proud of who you are.
I am sorry to say but being Indian is hard
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 05, 2009, 09:47:08 pm
I read something in the one of the other threads that ties into all of this.  Whether or not you agree with this person or not, it should be know that this person is not the only person that I have heard this sort of attitude from.  This is a piece of the puzzle that fits into the whole issue.. And the attitude of this poster can be found amongst many Oklahoma Cherokees.  They may not tell you to your face if they meet you, but there is resentment that does linger.

So, even if you are of the small percentage of people that claim “Cherokee blood”, who isn’t enrolled in one of the three Federally Recognized  Cherokee Tribes, but REALLY ARE Cherokee by blood.  You might get the cold shoulder from some Cherokees in Oklahoma.  And this is why, and the post by “Keely” ties into all of it. 

Many Cherokees in Oklahoma feel that their ancestors suffered and made great sacrifices for the Cherokee Nation and for the Cherokee people.  For the most part, they walked the Trail of Tears, and stayed and helped build and support the Cherokee Nation through thick and thin, and in times of great adversary and animosity from the Federal Government and the dominant society.
Their ancestors didn’t “walk off the Trail”, their ancestors didn’t “do their best to blend in”,and for the most part, their ancestors were “proud to be Cherokee”.
 
So its really highly offensive to see the descendants of a handful of Cherokees that supposedly “stayed behind”, “walk off the trail”,etc  emerge out of the blue in the last 2 or 3 decades now claiming to be Cherokee and starting their own Fake Tribes.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 05, 2009, 09:48:15 pm
Keely said this in the forum “Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation”

Quote
I don’t know what a PODIA is, but if it refers to the claims tht people left the trail during removal, they don’t know anything about the removals, the records kept before, during and after removal, and IF anyone did leave the tribe, then it is viewed as turning their backs on the people, and they are no longer considered a member of that Nation. They abandoned their people for them to suffer... what a selfish act that would have been... they made a choice for themselves and their future generations.. they are not Indian.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 05, 2009, 09:49:43 pm
Also, here’s a video for all you whites and other non Cherokees in general that seem to be obsessed with the BQ thing with us Cherokees. It really does get annoying after a while, especially coming from outsiders of our Tribe and our Communities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIGsErw0XDY&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIGsErw0XDY&feature=channel)

Pay attention to the last part of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJfEnCLktw&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJfEnCLktw&feature=channel)


http://www.meetthecherokee.org/OurStory/tabid/1718/Default.aspx (http://www.meetthecherokee.org/OurStory/tabid/1718/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 06, 2009, 01:04:23 am
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"

 I asked these questions ,post number five, all have been answered in some form.  I would like to hear some more of all of the group's opinions on why I have not run into this issue of state tribes until the last few years thanks "LittleOldMan"  


I think it has a lot to do with the spread of the internet, along with the formation of the Task Force put together. I think that the harsh position the Task Force took by tossing all State Tribes into the same group as the Internet,  post office box and rent a sweat lodge tribes was wrong. But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

Then comes the internet posters like those here or at NDNZ.com or a dozen other forums like this one. Forums are by nature a place that stirs up some strong emotions. (flame wars). It's like putting gas and fire together. This is a topic than can lead to some very heated debates. There are some that thrive on the debates that can come from such a polarized topic. The stronger the debates the more likely other people that would normally just sit back and read the posts  will jump in and post or take sides. this info spreads all over the internet, and of course it gets the attention of the T.F. and they suddenly see a need to put out stronger statements and the dog begins to chase it's tail. and round and round it goes.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 02:55:37 am
I'm sure back when these groups were first appearing in the 70's, or 80's, they weren't really that well know.  The internet not only made it easier for these phoney groups to recruit, but it also eventually worked againts them at the same time.  With the internet, and sites like this, more people are becoming aware of not only Exploiters, but the bogus groups that call themselves Tribes. 

Its just like this site for example and all the good work that NAFPS and its supporters has been doing over the years. Everyone might not agree with everyone else on certain topics, ( As we can see with the ongoing feuds between a few members ) but I think for the most part, everyone here should be commended for their fight against Exploiters and these other groups.

Exposing all these fakes before the internet came around would be/was a lot more difficult.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 02:59:45 am
Quote
But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

What do you mean by this Paul123?  Give me an example of a "daming statement"  I think the Task Force has been more then fair and mabye even a little too generous about not questioning people's claims of Cherokee Heritage.   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 06, 2009, 03:04:10 am
There is a couple things I am noticing about this conversation which make me wonder.

I don't understand why people aren't happy to simply be recognized as descendents. Why do people see that as somehow less fufilling than being a member of a Federal or State Tribe?

Why do people who grew up in a non native community with a predominantly non native heritage feel the need to say they are [Cherokee] ( or whatever the tribe is ) instead of just saying their grandma or gr gr grandma was?   

People who are posting in defence of people of distant Indian ancestry claiming an NDN identity, repeatedly say it's not about trying to get anything material, and it's all about the culture and a sense of belonging.

So what doesn't make sense to me is , why does the conversation keep coming back to whether or not people are citizens of a tribe? Why do people seem so desperate to be told being a member of a State tribes is OK ?

How is formal citizenship necessary to have relationships or family ties within the tribal community peoples ancestors came from ?

What sort of activities do people feel they are unable to participate in without this formal citizenship, and how do they think this would change if they had this ?

What real difference do people think it would make , whether they are refered to as descendents or tribal citizens?

I guess I am also wondering if people might have some unrealistic ideas about what it would mean to be enrolled in a Native community .

Blackwolf mentions the resentment some Cherokee people feel towards  the descendents of people who are seen to have abandoned their people.

But from what I have seen, this isn't just towards people who think they have a distant ancestor. I have seen this same resentment towards enrolled people who are close to full blood because they left their community and after a couple decades of living in the White world and doing OK for themselves , they try to return . I've more than once heard where these people feel rejected and get the message they have become too white in their ways - even if they were born and grew up on the rez.

When many Native communities are struggling with extreme poverty, drug and alchohol abuse, child abuse , domestic violence , suicide, ect ect ect. it seems more than a little unrealistic for a complete stranger to expect to be welcomed and have all their emotional needs taken care of.

So I wonder what it is exactly that people imagine they want - and does this even exist anywhere except in their own imaginations ?

Thinking about it, the people I know who are PODIAs who have successfully reconnected with the Native community , are almost always skilled in some practical way and have found a way to use their practical skills to benifit the Native community . ( and I don't mean people who are so Indian in their heart, the Native community is wowed and benifits from their glorious presence...)

One thing that might lead to a better understanding on all sides, is if some people were comfortable to share some personal stories where they have tried to reconnect, how they tried to do this, and how they felt wrongly rejected. (I mean ways other than not being able to enroll in the tribe)

Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?

I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 06, 2009, 03:14:25 am
Good questions Moma P, and I wonder the same.  I do have a question though, about ndn's who leave and then come back.  I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back, do the people take personal offense when a member has to go to another 'world' (so to speak) in order to see the value of the one they left.. or to realize the value of their people.  Often teenagers are like this.. and some people are just mud headed..  I guess.  I could understand some stand offishness for a period of time, but it is hard to understand a rejection of them.

Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain? 

Thank you.  :)

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 03:36:16 am
Quote
How is formal citizenship necessary to have relationships or family ties within the tribal community peoples ancestors came from ?

This is a very very good point Moma_porcupine.  If people are secure in their idenities, then why do they need formal recognition from a Tribal Goverment that their ancestors abandoned almost 200 years ago.  I don't know too many Italian Americans that feel the need to be recognized as Italian Citizens by the goverment of Italy. For the most part, they are secure in their idenities.  Is a CDIB/Tribal ID really going to change who somebody is? 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 06, 2009, 03:46:47 am
Blackwolf
Quote
I don't know too many Italian Americans that feel the need to be recognized as Italian Citizens by the goverment of Italy.

Or how many American people who's great grandma was Italian would be silly enough to think they can learn how to be Italian...  If these people learned about Italian culture they would probably gain some insight into who they already are, but it wouldn't transform them into Italians...

Critter
   
Quote
I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back,

I don't fully understand that either. Sometimes it seems to be connected to people already being stressed with not having nough resources to go around. I've also heard unimpressed sounding comments about someone being "fancy". And someone who had gotten a university education and been using this in the city said they had felt they were alienating some people because they used their full vocabulary . Again people felt they were being fancy. Anyways , what I was trying to get at ( besides that I only have 1/2 a clue myself ) is that if people who grew up in a Native community and are members have problems like this, why would someone who's family left generations ago expect to be welcomed with open arms?   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 06, 2009, 04:04:25 am
There are members of the CNO and UKB who don't think EBC should even exist. It may not be as bad now as it used to be, but there are still those who would deny the Eastern Band. The majority of the EBC are people whose ancestors opted to stay in the east. They renounced their Cherokee citizenship and became citizens of North Carolina. Yes, they lived in Cherokee communities and retained their culture; but they were no longer citizens of the Cherokee Nation. Decades went by before they petitioned the United States government to be recognized as the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. I'm not criticizing or finding fault with what they or anyone else did in the southeast during the years prior to and during removal. The same as I can't blame my ancestors for what they did. They were doing what they thought was best for their family. I understand why some in Oklahoma feel the way they do, although I don't agree with them. If the Cherokee in Oklahoma have trouble accepting the people on Qualla as Cherokee citizens, how much harder is it for them to accept someone with a claim of a gr gr gr gr gr gramma or grampa? Anyone claiming Cherokee ancestry should be able to prove it. As David Cornsilk says, the Cherokee are the most documented people on the face of the earth. Dawes and Baker were not the first rolls; the Cherokee have been counted almost since first European contact.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 04:11:18 am
Quote
If the Cherokee in Oklahoma have trouble accepting the people on Qualla as Cherokee citizens, how much harder is it for them to accept someone with a claim of a gr gr gr gr gr gramma or grampa?

Eastern Band members ARE accepted as Cherokees, and are our kin, and they should in no way shape or form even be remotely put in the same catagory as people with misterious Cherokee ancestry based on vague stories of a Cherokee great grandma.

With that said, Cherokees in Oklahoma don't like when Eastern Band members refer to them as the Western Band. Because its the Cherokee Nation.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 04:18:20 am
Quote
Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain?

What is it thats stoping these people from reconnecting.  They can get on planes or have cars.  If they want to bad enough, then why don't they go visit a real Cherokee community and see how Tradional Cherokee people really live.  Maybe they'll see then that its not all a beautiful romantic fairy tale like they imagine.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 06, 2009, 04:23:56 am
It's not that they don't recognize the Eastern Band as Cherokee and kin. Some don't recognize them as Cherokee citizens, because their ancestors renounced their Cherokee citizenship in the 1800's and became citizens of North Carolina. Cherokee by blood, but not citizens of the Cherokee Nation.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 04:35:00 am
Quote
But from what I have seen, this isn't just towards people who think they have a distant ancestor. I have seen this same resentment towards enrolled people who are close to full blood because they left their community and after a couple decades of living in the White world and doing OK for themselves , they try to return . I've more than once heard where these people feel rejected and get the message they have become too white in their ways - even if they were born and grew up on the rez.


There are a lot of Cherokee Citizens who are disconnected to Cherokee culture.  A lot of them just live like regular people. They play football, basketball, tennis, listen to rock n roll, rap, country, etc. They are Cherokee yes, and they are proud of it, and are recognized as such.  But I have yet to meet disconnected Cherokeees that feel the need to dress up in buckskin and pretend to be something that they are not.  Some Cherokee Citizens are Christain, and some are more racially white, and some more racially black.  And their cool with it.  They are what they are.  Thats why its so perplexing to see these fakes who are in essence pretending to be mixed bloods, when real disconnected mixed bloods just act themselves.  I guess it has to do with the fact of how secure people are in their idenities.  If people just be themselves and act themselves, they would find out that they would be a lot more respected by Cherokees whether or not they are enrolled.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 06, 2009, 04:41:40 am
Quote
Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain?

What is it thats stoping these people from reconnecting.  They can get on planes or have cars.  If they want to bad enough, then why don't they go visit a real Cherokee community and see how Tradional Cherokee people really live.  Maybe they'll see then that its not all a beautiful romantic fairy tale like they imagine.

Oh.  I didn't mean that way.  I was referring to the quote from Keely..

"They abandoned their people for them to suffer... what a selfish act that would have been... they made a choice for themselves and their future generations.. they are not Indian."

It left me thinking that 'those' descendants would never be welcomed regardless of anything.  

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 04:50:24 am
Quote
It left me thinking that 'those' descendants would never be welcomed regardless of anything.

I personally don't care about someone's enrollement status as to whether or not their Indian.  But I do try to sort through legit claims from bogus ones. 

But in response to what you said, and from my experience with my fellow Cherokees, and to be completely honest with you, your probably right. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 06, 2009, 05:40:05 am
Rattle, you say you "didn't start anything", you were only giving an example "without mention of names", and "placed no insults whatsoever in the posting". I guess I look at it differently, based on my experiences with you. No, you didn't out-right attack me; it was more subtle than that. I was neither emotional nor angry, just wanted to set the record straight. Please don't play the victim here; you are far from that.

Why did I post what I did about how my family left the Nation? Might have been in response to your "I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled." Almost sounds like you're questioning the validity of my claim. Don't do that. Rattle, you seem to have a fascination with my genealogy, researching who I am and what my ties to the Cherokee Nation are. Word of advice, it's not a good idea to assume that I'm related to every Singleton.

As for my thinking "that everyone on here owes you details about their lives at times" . . . When have you ever seen me question who someone is or what Nation claims them? Tsisqua, Zoi Lightfoot, Linda Lou Flewin, and members of the Blackwater Muskogee don't count. They were/are pretendians who think they can speak for Indians. Exposing frauds is what we do here. Remember?

Okay, Rattle, I'll admit that I did say that you weren't Indian. Maybe I was testing you. I apologize for that. Other than that, I have never attacked you in any way.

As for the rest of your post . . . How did this turn into a discussion of Ben Carnes, Tachia, Walks, Danielle, or anyone else in you past or present? Personally, I don't care what started the feud between y'all. I've only made observations as they pertained to things that have been posted here on NAFPS. When y'all bring your dirty laundry here, it's hard not to comment from time to time. I have never lied about you or anyone else.

Yes, I'm old enough to be your mother. Definitely not old enough to be your grandmother. Based on my age, you would expect better of me. Better than what? I haven't attacked you. I may disagree with some of the things you say, but I don't attack you. I've never made "false statements" about you or anyone else.

Owe you an apology?  I've already apologized for saying you aren't Indian. Other than that, I have nothing to apologize for.

Rattle, if you want to continue this discussion, pm or e-mail me. This doesn't belong on NAFPS.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: apukjij on November 06, 2009, 06:20:29 am
Good questions Moma P, and I wonder the same.  I do have a question though, about ndn's who leave and then come back.  I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back, do the people take personal offense when a member has to go to another 'world' (so to speak) in order to see the value of the one they left.. or to realize the value of their people. 
I can speak of my experience on this matter directly. after leaving my Italian father my mother me and sister moved from the US back to Canada to our reserve. we were warmly welcomed by family and friends. but not by the powers that be. we ended up in a condemned house. me and my sister and all residents of the reserve with non-native fathers are denied voting and housing rights. my mother confronted the chief and council directly. and was told to her face "because you did not give what you had to one of us (a Mi'kmaw man) you deserve NOTHING. Your like ******* (the white squatter who has lived all his life on a desolate corner of the reserve far from the people).
and of all the colonizing forces we have remained resilient against i put most of the blame on the Shubenacadie Residential School that my mother and the elders were abducted to (the indian agent sent the children to the Resie school for the slightest reason, all the while pocketing their welfare cheque during their stay thus the conspiracy to assimilate involved not only Indian Affairs but to the churches trickling down to even the indian agents the non native administrators who were the band managers until the 60's ). this is where our People learned punishment. Before to punish a child, a parent used the Mi'kmaw Custom of commanding the child to go pick a strong twig off a bush and threatening lashes. in most cases the very act of picking out a twig for their own punishment, left the child completely repentant and contrite so the lash was never put to use. at the Resie school, our people were punished mercilessly, even for only speaking Mi'kmaq; as so eloquently put by one of our late beloved Elders http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html (http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html)
and then the torture, sexual abuse and cult abuse (the children had to attend mass daily, pray the rosary and have prayer sessions throughout the day), these children missed out on a generation of parenting skills in the Mi'kmaq ways. and my nation suffered a huge language loss. and the overwheming majority of my Elders think the Pipe and the Drum are pagan ways. Punishment became like a sickness. It permeates all aspects of my community, including domestic violence. and thats what the chief and council did to all of us half-breeds and our mothers. they punished us too.. heres another example. The chief and council recently moved that any person charged with trafficking will face enormous repercussions,
http://media.knet.ca/node/6700 (http://media.knet.ca/node/6700)
of course we want our children off the pills desperately, theres been 26 youth suicides in Eskasoni in the past 2 years, of the 14 castle bay teenagers who made up the crew i belonged to, 9 of them have committed suicide,
the controversy behind this new band council resolution is that a person need only be charged... not convicted! so if you want to get someone out of the community set them up and call the tip line, not every person charged is guilty but all will be punished anyway. like the grandmother, who simply took in her grandson who ending up being charged, now the band council is refusing to repair the dangerous leaking roof on her house.
the saddest fact of the matter is that if you are not of the 3 or 4 clans that rule Eskasoni you don't get to take advantage of all the benefits that the chief and councils are removing from these trafficking charged members of the community, if your not related then you don't get much, and the job postings have qualifications that are such that the poor and poverty stricken will never meet, theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,  
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 06, 2009, 11:05:26 am
Quote
But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

What do you mean by this Paul123?  Give me an example of a "daming statement"  I think the Task Force has been more then fair and mabye even a little too generous about not questioning people's claims of Cherokee Heritage.   

I don't have anything right on the tip of my fingers,,,
how 'bout trying to get all State Tribes outlawed.
I mean do they really think if that happened that those Tribes would go away? Did the CNO fold up and assimilate when the BIA declared that there was no Cherokee Nation? The Freeman thing is bad enough, but does anyone think that the CNO will ever get the Fed. Gov. to disenfranchise all of the people that are members of the State Tribes? Like I said in another thread, they should be careful that it doesn't backfire. I think that they are being careful, and have turned down the path of the Satellite communities. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 06, 2009, 04:15:50 pm

I can speak of my experience on this matter directly. after leaving my Italian father my mother me and sister moved from the US back to Canada to our reserve. we were warmly welcomed by family and friends. but not by the powers that be. we ended up in a condemned house. me and my sister and all residents of the reserve with non-native fathers are denied voting and housing rights. my mother confronted the chief and council directly. and was told to her face "because you did not give what you had to one of us (a Mi'kmaw man) you deserve NOTHING. Your like ******* (the white squatter who has lived all his life on a desolate corner of the reserve far from the people).
and of all the colonizing forces we have remained resilient against i put most of the blame on the Shubenacadie Residential School that my mother and the elders were abducted to (the indian agent sent the children to the Resie school for the slightest reason, all the while pocketing their welfare cheque during their stay thus the conspiracy to assimilate involved not only Indian Affairs but to the churches trickling down to even the indian agents the non native administrators who were the band managers until the 60's ). this is where our People learned punishment. Before to punish a child, a parent used the Mi'kmaw Custom of commanding the child to go pick a strong twig off a bush and threatening lashes. in most cases the very act of picking out a twig for their own punishment, left the child completely repentant and contrite so the lash was never put to use. at the Resie school, our people were punished mercilessly, even for only speaking Mi'kmaq; as so eloquently put by one of our late beloved Elders http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html (http://www.drumshow.ca/poem-lostmytalk.html)
and then the torture, sexual abuse and cult abuse (the children had to attend mass daily, pray the rosary and have prayer sessions throughout the day), these children missed out on a generation of parenting skills in the Mi'kmaq ways. and my nation suffered a huge language loss. and the overwheming majority of my Elders think the Pipe and the Drum are pagan ways. Punishment became like a sickness. It permeates all aspects of my community, including domestic violence. and thats what the chief and council did to all of us half-breeds and our mothers. they punished us too.. heres another example. The chief and council recently moved that any person charged with trafficking will face enormous repercussions,
http://media.knet.ca/node/6700 (http://media.knet.ca/node/6700)
of course we want our children off the pills desperately, theres been 26 youth suicides in Eskasoni in the past 2 years, of the 14 castle bay teenagers who made up the crew i belonged to, 9 of them have committed suicide,
the controversy behind this new band council resolution is that a person need only be charged... not convicted! so if you want to get someone out of the community set them up and call the tip line, not every person charged is guilty but all will be punished anyway. like the grandmother, who simply took in her grandson who ending up being charged, now the band council is refusing to repair the dangerous leaking roof on her house.
the saddest fact of the matter is that if you are not of the 3 or 4 clans that rule Eskasoni you don't get to take advantage of all the benefits that the chief and councils are removing from these trafficking charged members of the community, if your not related then you don't get much, and the job postings have qualifications that are such that the poor and poverty stricken will never meet, theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,  
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.

This is more sad than I have words to express, but I wanted to acknowledge your story. You are strong to survive, and I have no words I can really say to you that would mean anything.  I wish I had a word to say, that would sum up .. but I have no such word in my language.  "love, hugs, wish you well" are all lame words that do not fill the meaning I feel and have no word to say of.  So..  in silence..  I acknowledge what I cannot say.  And post only to tell you that I have no words.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 06:04:40 pm
Quote
I don't have anything right on the tip of my fingers,,,
how 'bout trying to get all State Tribes outlawed.

Sometimes Daming Statements are the truth Paul123.  And sometimes the truth hurts. I would support a measure that would outlaw the fakes, but at the same time protect the Legit Historic Tribes that do not have Federal Recognition.  I think that would have to be worked out first so these Tribes were protected and not put in the same catagory as the Frauds and Fakes. 

All of the fake Tribes like the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama, The Cherokees of Georgia Tribal Concil,, Cherokees of Northeast Alabama, etc, would be dealt with seperately.  Any Cheorkee Tribe other then the 3 Federally Recognized Tribes are bogus.   

Quote
I mean do they really think if that happened that those Tribes would go away?

Your right, they're not going away.  But the more the word is put out that these groups are a bunch of Frauds, the more isolated they will become, and it will become harder and harder for them to keep deceiving the public and Federal Agencies into believing that they represent the Cherokee people. The Task Force is already working on this, and from what I hear, they have a lot of upcoming plans in the future.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 06, 2009, 07:13:34 pm

Moma_porcupine said this.
Quote
Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?


Quote
I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?


This is a good question.  There are advantages to having a CDIB card.  For example one would be eligible for Indian Health Services,and certain Indian Housing programs.  They would also have access to scholrships and financial assiatance only availble to enrolled Indians.  But most of them say its not about that.

Then you have the issue of who can and can't carry Eagl Feathers.  If your not a  member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, you can get big fines for having them.  This is a common complaint I hear from many who are not enrolled and claim Indian heritage.  So I'm sure this is part of it at least for some. 

Like I said before, if people are secrue in their idenity, then just be content with who you are.  And if they want to learn about the ways of the Tribe that they claim, then they should go about learning in a humble way.  They also have to consider that they probably won't be accepted overnight in Tribal communities.  It may even take them years to be accepted.  Even enrolled Indians that did not grow up within their Tribal communities that go to visit there face a certain level of distrust. So its going to be twice as hard for people who can't prove their heritage, and can't even give a familiar family name from Tribal rolls.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 06, 2009, 10:25:59 pm

Moma_porcupine said this.
Quote
Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?


Quote
I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?


This is a good question.  There are advantages to having a CDIB card.  For example one would be eligible for Indian Health Services,and certain Indian Housing programs.  They would also have access to scholrships and financial assiatance only availble to enrolled Indians.  But most of them say its not about that.

Then you have the issue of who can and can't carry Eagl Feathers.  If your not a  member of a Federally Recognized Tribe, you can get big fines for having them.  This is a common complaint I hear from many who are not enrolled and claim Indian heritage.  So I'm sure this is part of it at least for some. 

Like I said before, if people are secrue in their idenity, then just be content with who you are.  And if they want to learn about the ways of the Tribe that they claim, then they should go about learning in a humble way.  They also have to consider that they probably won't be accepted overnight in Tribal communities.  It may even take them years to be accepted.  Even enrolled Indians that did not grow up within their Tribal communities that go to visit there face a certain level of distrust. So its going to be twice as hard for people who can't prove their heritage, and can't even give a familiar family name from Tribal rolls.

 I think you have made the best and most fair posts in this thread Blackwolf. I have much respect for you, as I have told you before. A lot of things I see you say on this board are much the same as I was taught in regards to who is NDN or not, regardless if enrolled or not.

 One thing I would like to add that those trying to reconnect should always remember. People are people regardless of what they are. So you have good and bad in all.

 When it comes to things like the issue of BQ, you have people that dislike others based on such things regardless if they are enrolled or not. Maybe so and so dislikes anyone below a certain BQ, or so and so dislikes so and so because they are a full blood, and this person thinks that full bloods think they are better then everyone else. These are actually the type of things I hear people saying all the time. This is usually on top of the whole As the frybread turns drama, which isn't any different then the drama that goes on amongst any group of people.

 So in my opinion not only should these people learn to be secure in themselves, but also realize not everyone is going to like them. It's not going to be any different then if somebody hates on them for their weight, hair color, or looks. It's regular every day human beings doing every day human being stuff.

 I think a lot of the problems in threads like these and conversations like this though is the bad people. It's the exploiters, total frauds with no NDN blood, or people like this one white lady I used to see walk around the powwows here making sure she prayed out loud where everyone could hear her, talking about "hoping Wakana Tanka blessed everyone." Usually it seemed she would blurt this stuff out almost at random for no reason, and she was not mentally ill.

 People like that seem to irritate people so badly, or do so many bad things; people forget that some out there who are not enrolled for whatever reason are not the same as them. Sadly they often get put in the same category because of those other people.

 I think that is why I participate in the conversations like this in the way that I do, and sometimes people mistake what I am saying for me sticking up for the wrong people. I am not defending those who claim some ggggggggggg grandmother they can't even prove existed, but rather those who I do feel need to be defended because I believe them to be who they say they are. Heck their are some people around here whom I don't know if they are NDN or not as they claim, or have any kind of proof. I just know that everyone else accepts them and so I do to. It isn't my place to be questioning them anyways, nor do I care to.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 06, 2009, 10:34:03 pm
Thought this article might be good to put in here for discussion



Indian Country Today

Print this article
Identity trends should be addressed with respect, openness

Originally printed at http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/opinion/28649084.html

For most American Indians, contemporary indigenous identity is tied to their membership or enrollment in a tribal community and whether they have ties to that community, engage in its culture and ceremonies, are considered part of the community, and have relatives living there. Indigenous people maintain that their tribal communities have rights to self-government from time immemorial and which precede the formation of the United States. One main difference between ethnic identity and tribal or indigenous identity is that tribal people belong to a community with specific culture and territory, and exercise certain sovereignty. Ethnic groups may identify with a certain culture or history, but do not claim rights to self-government.

There are several million people in the United States who might be described as “ethnic” Indians. They are people who identify as an Indian person, but do not have direct connection to a specific Indian community or do not have communication with or even know their ancestral Native community. Ethnic identity is one way in which people have adapted to the cultural and human diversity of the contemporary world.

We need to confront the world not by changing our beliefs, but by finding ways to preserve our cultural identities and beliefs while creatively facing contemporary challenges.

One can argue, though, that an interpretation of the world that addresses ethnic identity but does not conceptualize tribal or indigenous identity does a disservice to tribal communities and indigenous identity. The problem here is not that ethnic identities are wrong or undesirable, but rather that ethnic and indigenous identities need to understand and respect each other. Unfortunately, ethnic identities tend to overlook indigenous identities by not recognizing indigenous land, self-government, and sovereignty issues. In this way, ethnic and indigenous identities currently are not entirely compatible, often leading to misunderstandings and conflict between the two points of view. Most likely, indigenous and ethnic identities will continue to struggle, and many indigenous peoples will likely feel oppressed by a point of view that many people believe is a progressive movement.

While there is much cultural diversity among Indian nations, tribal membership is increasingly based on fundamentally racial or ethnic criteria. These policies are, for the most part, devoid of indigenous cultural content. This may be the trend of the future, but it raises issues that should be openly discussed and considered in developing the future strategies of indigenous communities.

The more ethnic identities and nationalities supplant indigenous points of view, the greater the probability that indigenous peoples will lose their rationale for defending their rights to land, language, and self-determination. We need to confront the world not by changing our beliefs, but by finding ways to preserve our cultural identities and beliefs while creatively facing contemporary challenges. We need to preserve indigenous nations in ways that empower us, supports economic sustainability, preserves and upholds culture, and protects tribal self-government.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 07, 2009, 12:27:38 am
One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 07, 2009, 12:54:30 am
 Rattlebone said

Quote
I think you have made the best and most fair posts in this thread Blackwolf. I have much respect for you, as I have told you before. A lot of things I see you say on this board are much the same as I was taught in regards to who is NDN or not, regardless if enrolled or not.


Thanks Rattlebone.  I do always try to look at both sides of the issue and think it is unfair to just put all unenrolled people in a catagory.  This issue is not black and white.  For me its more of a grey issue.  On one side you have people who accept everyone with a vague story of Cherokee ancestry. I don't agree with this. The first part of this thread deals with that.  Moma_porcupine also gave some supporting evidence for that.

And then on the other hand you have people that don't accept anyone without a card.  I don't agree with this either.  I just try to make sense of it all by using common sense.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 07, 2009, 12:55:46 am
Quote
Posted by: Paul123 


One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.
 




Paul would you agree that the obvious fakes should not be able to clog up the system and delay the process for Tribes with obvious legit claims?

I know the process isn't perfect, but what exactly would you change about the process?

http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf (http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 07, 2009, 01:18:30 am
Quote
Posted by: Paul123  


One thing that would help a lot would be to fix the screwed up process that a tribe has to go through to get Fed. recognition. There are a ton of Tribes that ARE NDN, but have none or only State recognition.
 




Paul would you agree that the obvious fakes should not be able to clog up the system and delay the process for Tribes with obvious legit claims?

I know the process isn't perfect, but what exactly would you change about the process?

http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf (http://lieberman.senate.gov/documents/crs/indianaffairs.pdf)

I'm no lawyer or politician so I would never be able to sort out all of the stuff on the link that you provided or the stuff in the H.R.3690 either but...

I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help. I know the difference between justly recognizing a Tribe and making it nearly imposable so that the Fed. Gov. doesn't have to cough up any more money.

I have heard some say that these fake tribes are clogging up the system so that the real tribes can't get through. True that but,,,  I also know that some of the Fed Tribes intentionally clog up the system too. so that they don't have to worry about the pie being sliced thinner.


It's all about the money honey.. and it always has been and always will be. if it weren't for the money thing I dare say that this very thread wouldn't have been needed.  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 07, 2009, 01:51:22 am
I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help. I know the difference between justly recognizing a Tribe and making it nearly imposable so that the Fed. Gov. doesn't have to caught up any more money.

Sometimes its not coughing up money, but simply continued taking of land.

I suppose a lot of this will depend on new appointees by Obama and new hires in the Department of Interior.

Also, in the cases of some frauds, it's going to be new hires in the Department of Justice.

I greatly enjoyed reading people from the recognized tribes asking Obama about making it easier to set up "land trusts" which would allow people to move back to ancestral lands.



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 07, 2009, 02:44:53 am
Quote
I'm no lawyer or politician so I would never be able to sort out all of the stuff on the link that you provided or the stuff in the H.R.3690 either but...



I'm no lawyer either Paul, but some of the key points here are necasary.  I'm not saying its perfect, and I'm not saying some Tribes were unfairly denied but there DOES have to be some standard.


Existence as an Indian tribe on a continuous basis since 1900.

Existence predominantly as a community. This may be established by
geographical residence of 50% of the group; marriage patterns; kinship
and language patterns; cultural patterns; and social or religious patterns.
Political influence or authority over members as an autonomous entity
from historical times until the present.
Evidence that the membership descends from an historical tribe or tribes
that combined and functioned together as a political entity. This may be
established by tribal rolls, federal or state records, church or school
records, affidavits of leaders and members, and other records.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 07, 2009, 02:53:28 am

Paul said
Quote
I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help.

Do you know why it takes 30 or 40 years Paul? 

If you go here and click on "fraudulent group list", I counted over 30 of these fraudulent groups that petetioned for Federal Recognition.
http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx (http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx)

What they should do is to start eliminating these fraudulent groups a lot faster then they already are.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 07, 2009, 03:29:26 am
This link shows over six million dollars in grants given to fake tribes in the past five years by the Administration for Native Americans under the Community Services Block Grant Act.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf (http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 07, 2009, 10:27:56 am

Paul said
Quote
I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help.

Do you know why it takes 30 or 40 years Paul?  

If you go here and click on "fraudulent group list", I counted over 30 of these fraudulent groups that petetioned for Federal Recognition.
http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx (http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx)

What they should do is to start eliminating these fraudulent groups a lot faster then they already are.

Well 30ish doesn't sound so bad considering how large the list is that you linked to. Two workers should be able to root out 30 fake tribes in about 30 weeks. Just send for one of their membership applications and read it. Perhaps just to be sure, you could go visit their tribal land,,,, errr make that their Post Office Box...


So what should be done to move it along faster...

I'd suggest that the Dept. get off of it's lazy a$$ and do some WORK for a change and cut out those 3 hour lunch breaks.

If my boss gave me 2 years to get something done I may be able to explain why it isn't finished after 3 years, if I have a real good excuse,,, but no way am I going to keep my job after 30 years and the job still isn't done, no matter what the excuse.

Unless of course my boss had actually told me to just pretend to do your job, we don't really ever want you to approve any new Tribes. Well then, that would be another thing. If this is the case then the BIA is doing a GREAT JOB.
No way you can convince me that this isn't the case.
(But go ahead and try if you wish).

 At some point 'ya begin to think that the BIA has spent more money stalling a Tribe than they would have had to give the Tribe,,, ha,ha...

@BlackWolf,
It may sound like we differ on some of this (well perhaps some) but I think that you are spot on with a lot of what you have said in this thread. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 07, 2009, 10:42:00 am
This link shows over six million dollars in grants given to fake tribes in the past five years by the Administration for Native Americans under the Community Services Block Grant Act.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf (http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf)

so let's see,,, 6 mil devied up by 250 tribes over 5 years,,, that's only about 4800 bucks each. (ha,ha)

And Please try to convince me that this money was money that ANY Fed. Tribe would have gotten to begin with. (Other than the amounts that the Fed. Tribes also got along with everyone else in these programs) The Fed. Tribes did get some of this money too. If one is going to blast a group for getting something then I think it would only be fair to report both sides of the story by stating how much the Fed. Tribes also got.

Also,, please provide the numbers of all other block grant money that went to  NON-NDN projects... Block grant money was NEVER intended for NDNs per say, so if some groups got some,,, so what... I'd bet that none of it went to any post office box NDNs anyway. It was ment to help poor people from all groups. From the link below one can see that ALL groups did/will get some small slice of this pie.

http://www.hhs.gov/recovery/programs/acf/csbg.html
quote from link:
On February 17, 2009, President Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Recovery Act).   The Recovery Act provides for $1 billion in additional funds to the Community Services Block Grant (CSBG) program for Federal Fiscal Year 2009.   As with regularly appropriated CBSG funds, Recovery Act funds may be used for the reduction of poverty, the revitalization of low-income communities, and the empowerment of low-income families and individuals in rural and urban areas to become fully self-sufficient.

Distribution of Funds:

States will receive Recovery Funds, as a separate allotment, under the same formula used for funds allocated under regular annual appropriations.  Fifty States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and Federal and State-recognized Indian Tribes and Tribal organizations will receive $985 million in Recovery Funds.  The Recovery Act mandates that States pass through no less than 99 percent of their Recovery Act allocations for grants to “eligible entities” under the CSBG Act, commonly referred to as Community Action agencies.

To claim that Fake NDNs are taking money away from "real" NDNs by quoting block grant money as the source is as much misleading propaganda as the Fake tribes use on their web sites to attract new victims,,, Uhh,, I mean members.  If 2 wrongs don't make a right,,, well then try 3. <ha,ha>
 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 08, 2009, 01:26:41 am
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

<snip lots of good stuff only for bandwidth reasons>
... theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,   
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.

Thank you for your words. And to everyone in this thread who has stressed what so many NDN people are going through. The non-NDNs I meet who "want to be Native" - with their made-in-China dreamcatchers, their plastic sweatlodges, their feelings of entitlement - haven't the slightest idea of what real NDN people go through. Not the slightest idea.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 08, 2009, 04:54:46 am
The wannabe privileges:

1. I can claim any blood degree I want, because I have no proof.

2. I can claim any tribe I want, because I have no proof.

3. I can claim as many tribes as I want, because I have no proof.

4. I can claim as much Indian history as I want, because I have no proof.

5. I can claim as many tribal rolls as I want, because I have no proof.


The authentic Indian privilege:

1. I claim only what I can prove, everything else originates from there.

by David Cornsilk

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 08, 2009, 07:33:06 pm
Besides feeling disgusted at non native people getting even $1 of funding that might rightfully belong to a Native community , I think there is a real problem when the non native government, which in case people have forgot, has a long history of setting things up that will lead to the weakening and demise of Native people and especially tribal governments, pays non natives or PODIAs who are not accepted as citizens of a real tribe, a reward for wrongly claiming a Native political identity. 

Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one is wanting to explain what exactly these people aren't getting . Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about . It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favour of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there is so many records and lists.

For one thing, there was more than one generation alive when these rolls were made, so, it would usually have been several ancestors who somehow fell through the cracks , not just one ancestor. Several generations are alive at any given time. There is children, parents, their parents and even grandparents.

If someone claims to be a 1/4  Cherokee, it would mean that their 8 Cherokee gr gr gr grandparents , their 4 Cherokee gr gr grandparents and 2 Cherokee gr grandparents, and their Cherokee grandparent, who in most cases would have had different family histories, were all never recorded. Maybe this sometimes happened , but I can sure see good reason for skeptism when so many people claim such an improbable family history.

Even if no direct ancestor made it onto any roll or record, it seems there should be some people who could be proved to be aunts uncles, and brothers and sisters. It does get really hard to believe when people claim that none of their proven relatives were recorded- especially if someone is claiming a substanial amount of Native descent.

One of the things I notice is that people who really want to be Indian can usually produce evidence to support their claims. The problem is, selective evidence isn't proof. 

For example, people frequently say a relative of theirs is on one of the rolls so they have proof.

A basic fact which is known to anyone who has tried to figure out even a bit of their genealogy is that not everyone in the same area with the same surname is related, ( especially if this is a common European originating surname).  Even if everyone with this surname in the area is related , it's through sharing the same patrilineal line, and often this line is of non native origins.

In other words if a family comes from Scotland with 4 sons and lives in a small town , and one of these sons marries a Cherokee woman named Sally, and the other 3 brothers marry non native women , none of the descendents of these 3 brothers with non native wives will have any Cherokee blood from Sally ( I know this is really really obvious, but it is absolutely astounding how many people claiming they have proof of Native descent make this claim based on nothing bthe fact that some people in the same area with the same surname were recorded as Indian.)

I also think many of these patrilinaely related families have an oral tradition of being related to some Indians somewhere back there - except the details, like that this was through gr gr grandpa's brother's marriage have been long forgotten.

Another problem is , if someone wants to find evidence one of their ancestors was Native, most non native people can find something that might support this claim.

For example, if anyone goes to a search of the Dawes roll and types in the first and last names of all of their gr gr grandparents siblings, there is so many people listed on this roll the chances are very good  they will find a at least one person with the same name who is close to the same age as the person in their own family.

Other records and rolls which don't provide nearly as much detailed information as the Dawes rolls makes it even easier to find a possible match.     

To prove this is really the same person , would require gathering all the records left by the researcher's gr ( ? ) grandparents sibling,  and of the person with the same name who was recorded as Indian. Only by comparing all the available records left by these people  ,  and seeing how things like exact birth dates, marriages , children , where they lived and when they died , match up , can it be proven if they were in fact the same person.

But people who are only interested in finding evidence one of their ancestors was Native often fail to do this.

I guess sometimes inexperienced researchers might have a reason for jumping to the wrong conclusion. Every family tree has dead ends and if someones family lived in the same area as someone with the same name who was recorded as Native, and they couldn't figure out who this person in their own family was, it would be understandable to think maybe they were related, especially if there is a family story about Native ancestry back there somewhere.

But that is far from real proof.

Real genealogies always contain basic genealogical details such as the dates/places  of birth, marriage and death and children, and sources where this can be verified. Real genealogies are careful to point out that conclusions that can't be proven are just "maybe". Not a fact.

What really annoys me is when people make a big deal out of being NDN and how they are wrongly unrecognized,  but they refuse to include these basic genealogical details with their claim. If people want to keep this information private, thats fine, but it seems completely dishonest when these people also  expect to be recognized as an NDN or a tribe. 

I don't mean to sound like i am questioning the personal claims of  people who participate in on line discussions. It's only when these claims of an NDN identity are being made to gain some sort of public trust or public money that providing adaquet information to verify this seems to be a public right.

I also don't like it when people put out genealogical misinformation which will potentially mislead many sincere well meaning people into believing their ancestors were Native when they often were not. Or into wasting their time trying to find out if this is true...

I guess in some places or circumstances someone might be of Native descent and not be able to prove this. Especially if they or their parent / grandparent was separated from their birth family.  I sympathize with that. But if people really are descendents and can't prove it , it seems they would be better for them to only claim what they can prove .... Even if they are in a situation where they feel they have real evidence and it's hard not knowing for sure, it is probably better to be honest about this and say so . People who may be descendents , and who are vulnerable in their inability to be sure who they are, just set themself up to be disrespected when they make claims they can't really prove. When they can't answer the questions, they will then have to deal with being labeled a wannabe.

This doesn't seem like anything anyone who was sincere would want to set up for themselves.  And as so many people very rightly deserve to have their claims doubted, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to just accept an unverifiable claim. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: tachia on November 08, 2009, 08:57:16 pm
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.


earth ..
very well spoken .. i agree and feel the same way .. ..
i have been reading this thread recently yet staying out of it for reasons of my own ..
yet in reading your words .. and the words of others in here .. all trying to explain how hard it really is to be ndn .. i thought you might be interested in something i wrote on this subject, in reply to some new agers, several years ago ..

i too appologize if my words hurt anyone's feelings .. but these are my feelings .. and my feelings, the feelings of our peoples, are valid too .. ..

if you were not born and raised ndn then you are not ndn and never will be ndn ..

the only exception to this is those who actually take the time to go live with their peoples and learn the ways .. to give up the idea of “white privilege” .. to give up their comfortable lifestyle and literally trade it for one of poverty .. and that takes a lifetime .. it takes RESPECT and a genuine desire over all else to be a part of your peoples ..

if you are a PODIA .. (person of distant indian ancestry) .. why not just be proud of that? .. why not just be proud of your heritage and leave it at that?

if you know from your family which Nation/Tribe/Band you descend from, be proud of that knowledge and maybe try supporting those people in their struggles without the need to BE them .. if you only know that you are “part ndn”, chances are that you will never figure out which nation your ’supposed’ ndn ancestry comes from, will get frustrated, and will just pick a tribe that sounds ‘kewl’ and claim to BE ndn .. and in doing so you will piss off and bring harm the real ndn’s .. .. ..

i am sorry for being so harsh .. i am just sick to death of this crap .. all these whites who NOW want to be ndn .. some GGGGG grandmother was a Cherokee princess crap .. .. now that it is somehow popular to be ndn you all want claim you are .. that’s BS .. .. it harms us and it harms you!

where was your family when being ndn was NOT “kewl”???!!!!

where was your family when ours were (and still are) struggling on a daily basis to merely survive the ongoing 515 year GENOCIDE?

where was your family when ours were given smallpox infected blankets, on purpose, and dying in droves, entire nations obliterated?

where was your family when entire nations of our peoples were being annihilated by your manifest destiny?

where was your family when ALL of the treaties were systematically broken for the benefit and greed of the whites?

where was your family when our main food sources were being deliberately taken from us, the buffalo wantonly slaughtered, our crops and orchards burned, in order to starve us out?

where was your family when ours were being forced on death marches to far away lands to make room for more whites?

where was your family when ours were forced into concentration camps called reservations?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) living in forced abject poverty on and off the reservation?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) experiencing daily bigotry, prejudice and hate crimes?

where were your families children when ours were being stolen from us, forcibly sent to the white mans “christian mission” schools and abused, molested and murdered?

where was your family when ours were being FORCIBLY assimilated, relocated, christianized and otherwise deprived of our rights?

where was your family worshiping when our spirituality was against the law (until 1978), and practicing it was punishable by death?

where was your family when our young women were being sterilized (and still are) without consent or knowledge by your government in yet another act of GENOCIDE?

where was your family when our women were forced to give birth in an IHS hospital only to be told that their baby was stillborn, when in truth the baby was stolen and adopted out to a white family?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) being denied adequate housing, health care and education?

where was your family when our lands and resources were (and still are) being stolen from us?

where was your family when our lands, water and the very air we breathe were (and still are) being poisoned by the various mining of our resources, and in the name of progress which only benefits whites?

where was your family when ours were being massacred, raped, mutilated, murdered, and forced off their own lands?

where was your family while ours were (and still are) being imprisoned, their rights violated, framed by the authorities, denied due process of law, etc?

where was your family when ours was forced to abandon a healthy diet and given instead government commodity foods which caused (and still are causing) numerous health problems and death?

where was your family while ours were (and still are) dying from the toxins, radiation and other poisons loosed in our lands, waters, and air by your disposable society demanding instant gratification of their ‘needs’ and ‘greed’?

where was your family when all these atrocities were committed against OUR families?


where IS your family NOW?

where IS your family while our culture and spirituality are being stolen from us and bastardized to fit within the white hollywood stereotypical/new age image of what is ndn in an instant gratification society?

where IS your family, safe under the umbrella of white privilege, while ours are labeled “enemy combatants” and  “terrorists” for merely fighting for our basic human rights?

where IS your family while ours are being degraded by having numerous sports teams and consumer products named after us with racist mascots and caricatures?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the lowest age expectancy in this entire country?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the highest levels of poverty, unemployment, infant mortality, school drop outs, suicides, abuse, addictions, violence, crimes, etc., in this entire country?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the highest rate of miscarriages and birth defects, cancers, health problems and deaths, due to the poisons we are subjected to on our own lands?

where IS your family while ours are ‘graciously’ being given toxic FEMA trailers to live in, a gift that we are expected to pay for the transportation of, a gift that will kill us, exactly like the smallpox blankets did?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to have our treaties upheld?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to regain our lands, waters and resources and all else that was stolen from us?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to keep you from stealing what little we have left to us?

where IS your family while ours are fighting the great many issues facing our peoples right now?

where IS your family while ours is struggling to hold onto our culture in the midst of uncertainty about our very survival as ndn’s?

where IS your family while ours are struggling with alcohol and drug addictions, a disease deliberately inflicted upon us by the white man?

where IS your family while ours ARE ndn?

this list could go on and on, yet hopefully you get the idea from this partial list .. ..
so you want to be ndn? .. why? .. ..  because it is popular right now? .. because it seems to be really ‘kewl’ to be ndn? .. because hollywood and the new age crap has you believing that being ndn is easy, mystical, beautiful etc? ..

you want to be ndn? .. do you want to give up your comfortable white privilege? ..  do you want to give up your entire life as you know it? ..do you want to give up your preconceived BS notions of what being ndn is? .. can you make the enormous sacrifices necessary to re-connect with your peoples? ..

or do you want to “be ndn” from the comfort of your home, while maintaining your white privilege, your job, and your lifestyle? ..  do you want to be ndn just for a weekend here and there at some new age retreat? .. or at some twinkie pow wow or ceremony? .. or as a member of some fake twinkie tribe? .. do you just want to fill your home with tacky made in china knickknacks, paintings of half naked noble savages, and hang a dreamcatcher from your rearview mirror and other inappropriate places .. just so you can brag to your friends how ndn you are? ..

the great majority of you would not last one day on any reservation .. .. ..

in the spirit of my ancestors ..
tachia
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 08, 2009, 10:31:04 pm
Besides feeling disgusted at non native people getting even $1 of funding that might rightfully belong to a Native community , I think there is a real problem when the non native government, which in case people have forgot, has a long history of setting things up that will lead to the weakening and demise of Native people and especially tribal governments, pays non natives or PODIAs who are not accepted as citizens of a real tribe, a reward for wrongly claiming a Native political identity. 

Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one is wanting to explain what exactly these people aren't getting . Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about . It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favour of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there is so many records and lists.

For one thing, there was more than one generation alive when these rolls were made, so, it would usually have been several ancestors who somehow fell through the cracks , not just one ancestor. Several generations are alive at any given time. There is children, parents, their parents and even grandparents.

If someone claims to be a 1/4  Cherokee, it would mean that their 8 Cherokee gr gr gr grandparents , their 4 Cherokee gr gr grandparents and 2 Cherokee gr grandparents, and their Cherokee grandparent, who in most cases would have had different family histories, were all never recorded. Maybe this sometimes happened , but I can sure see good reason for skeptism when so many people claim such an improbable family history.

Even if no direct ancestor made it onto any roll or record, it seems there should be some people who could be proved to be aunts uncles, and brothers and sisters. It does get really hard to believe when people claim that none of their proven relatives were recorded- especially if someone is claiming a substanial amount of Native descent.

One of the things I notice is that people who really want to be Indian can usually produce evidence to support their claims. The problem is, selective evidence isn't proof. 

For example, people frequently say a relative of theirs is on one of the rolls so they have proof.

A basic fact which is known to anyone who has tried to figure out even a bit of their genealogy is that not everyone in the same area with the same surname is related, ( especially if this is a common European originating surname).  Even if everyone with this surname in the area is related , it's through sharing the same patrilineal line, and often this line is of non native origins.

In other words if a family comes from Scotland with 4 sons and lives in a small town , and one of these sons marries a Cherokee woman named Sally, and the other 3 brothers marry non native women , none of the descendents of these 3 brothers with non native wives will have any Cherokee blood from Sally ( I know this is really really obvious, but it is absolutely astounding how many people claiming they have proof of Native descent make this claim based on nothing bthe fact that some people in the same area with the same surname were recorded as Indian.)

I also think many of these patrilinaely related families have an oral tradition of being related to some Indians somewhere back there - except the details, like that this was through gr gr grandpa's brother's marriage have been long forgotten.

Another problem is , if someone wants to find evidence one of their ancestors was Native, most non native people can find something that might support this claim.

For example, if anyone goes to a search of the Dawes roll and types in the first and last names of all of their gr gr grandparents siblings, there is so many people listed on this roll the chances are very good  they will find a at least one person with the same name who is close to the same age as the person in their own family.

Other records and rolls which don't provide nearly as much detailed information as the Dawes rolls makes it even easier to find a possible match.     

To prove this is really the same person , would require gathering all the records left by the researcher's gr ( ? ) grandparents sibling,  and of the person with the same name who was recorded as Indian. Only by comparing all the available records left by these people  ,  and seeing how things like exact birth dates, marriages , children , where they lived and when they died , match up , can it be proven if they were in fact the same person.

But people who are only interested in finding evidence one of their ancestors was Native often fail to do this.

I guess sometimes inexperienced researchers might have a reason for jumping to the wrong conclusion. Every family tree has dead ends and if someones family lived in the same area as someone with the same name who was recorded as Native, and they couldn't figure out who this person in their own family was, it would be understandable to think maybe they were related, especially if there is a family story about Native ancestry back there somewhere.

But that is far from real proof.

Real genealogies always contain basic genealogical details such as the dates/places  of birth, marriage and death and children, and sources where this can be verified. Real genealogies are careful to point out that conclusions that can't be proven are just "maybe". Not a fact.

What really annoys me is when people make a big deal out of being NDN and how they are wrongly unrecognized,  but they refuse to include these basic genealogical details with their claim. If people want to keep this information private, thats fine, but it seems completely dishonest when these people also  expect to be recognized as an NDN or a tribe. 

I don't mean to sound like i am questioning the personal claims of  people who participate in on line discussions. It's only when these claims of an NDN identity are being made to gain some sort of public trust or public money that providing adaquet information to verify this seems to be a public right.

I also don't like it when people put out genealogical misinformation which will potentially mislead many sincere well meaning people into believing their ancestors were Native when they often were not. Or into wasting their time trying to find out if this is true...

I guess in some places or circumstances someone might be of Native descent and not be able to prove this. Especially if they or their parent / grandparent was separated from their birth family.  I sympathize with that. But if people really are descendents and can't prove it , it seems they would be better for them to only claim what they can prove .... Even if they are in a situation where they feel they have real evidence and it's hard not knowing for sure, it is probably better to be honest about this and say so . People who may be descendents , and who are vulnerable in their inability to be sure who they are, just set themself up to be disrespected when they make claims they can't really prove. When they can't answer the questions, they will then have to deal with being labeled a wannabe.

This doesn't seem like anything anyone who was sincere would want to set up for themselves.  And as so many people very rightly deserve to have their claims doubted, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to just accept an unverifiable claim. 


 Something I dislike that I think is a related  issue to what you have said here, is something I spoke to you in private about.

 This is when people fall into many of the categories you listed above, and/or might admit they have no proof of who they are other then a family story.

 However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

 

 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 08, 2009, 11:03:33 pm
Rattlebone
Quote
However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

Unless there was a close blood relationship, I would feel both exploitive and presumptuous to say "My Elders told me." Like whatever Elders were good enough to let me spend some time with them are "mine", when they have simply been generous to let me hang around. If thats what you are saying you find annoying and disrespectful, I also notice people doing that and yeah it does seem exploitive. I hope I never come across like that in anything I share here.

Sometimes I do feel I need to mention seeing something done in a traditional way or an expereince with an Elder , to explain how I see something, which I feel would be helpful to share. Even though anything I know is exceedingly basic I try to stay away from using only personal experiences . If I am trying to share something  on line, I try to back up any of my my own alleged expereince ,with a published credible source of a recognized Elders saying something about the same principles. But it sometimes does feel to be a fine line....    Which I would be very uncomfortable to cross. And yes I do see some people who seem to make a habit of this.   :-[
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 08, 2009, 11:32:48 pm
Rattlebone
Quote
However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

Unless there was a close blood relationship, I would feel both exploitive and presumptuous to say "My Elders told me." Like whatever Elders were good enough to let me spend some time with them are "mine", when they have simply been generous to let me hang around. If thats what you are saying you find annoying and disrespectful, I also notice people doing that and yeah it does seem exploitive. I hope I never come across like that in anything I share here.

Sometimes I do feel I need to mention seeing something done in a traditional way or an expereince with an Elder , to explain how I see something, which I feel would be helpful to share. Even though anything I know is exceedingly basic I try to stay away from using only personal experiences . If I am trying to share something  on line, I try to back up any of my my own alleged expereince ,with a published credible source of a recognized Elders saying something about the same principles. But it sometimes does feel to be a fine line....    Which I would be very uncomfortable to cross. And yes I do see some people who seem to make a habit of this.   :-[


 For the most part yes that is what I am talking about. However I will concede there are people that are enrolled and maybe even full blooded that do have elders that are not from their own tribe. I have known, and still know people that were born in one area away from their people and have what I commonly hear around here called "teachers" whom are of another tribe. These teachers are for the most part almost always elders.

 In understanding that there events such as relocation programs, adoptions and a host of other things, I will concede that I know people that are often taught by people whom are not from their tribe. I personally have had teachers in my life  that have been from tribes other then my own. I have always been open and honest about that fact, and have pointed it out many times.

 What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community. They just throw  out those words, and since they claim to be from a certain tribe, think that any older or elderly person in their family can count as a "native elder." I find it to be misleading and sometime even exploitative.

 What I would expect from somebody in issues like this is honestly, especially when this subject both online and in the real world  means dealing with others to some capacity. If they are being purposely deceptive on such things to hide what real knowledge and back ground they have, then it throws into question their character and root motive completely in my eyes. Especially when I have seen some do this to mislead others who might be what we have spoken of in this thread and other threads as those who are trying to "reconnect." In cases like this, I often see the victims being women.

 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 08, 2009, 11:45:04 pm
Rattlebone
Quote
What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community.

I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important. Not when people try and correct all the misinformation on line about what is and isn't a Native tradition - and may need to use the word "traditions" and "Elders" as part of trying to convey this. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 09, 2009, 12:03:11 am
Rattlebone
Quote
What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community.

I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important. Not when people try and correct all the misinformation on line about what is and isn't a Native tradition - and may need to use the word "traditions" and "Elders" as part of trying to convey this. 

 
Quote
I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

 In situations like this I do agree with you. Some things are not tribal specific in regards to things of this nature.

Quote
So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important

 I guess the best way to explain this in short is for  it to be a PODIA like person to claim having elders or say "their elders taught them this or that" when it is likely they most likely never had native elders to begin with from any tribe or community. They would likely pick up native people speaking of their elders and traditions, and then spout of such words to make it seem is if they have them, or are NDN instead of more of a PODIA person.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 09, 2009, 12:08:58 am
Yup, I agree. I don't like it when PODIAs or non native people do that either. It does seem deceptive and exploitive, and aimed at making themselves look like something they aren't.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 09, 2009, 06:06:08 pm
Moma_porcupine said
Quote
Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one wants to explain what exactly these people aren't getting. Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

That’s exactly right Moma_porcupine.  No one is stopping them from learning about the culture of the Tribes they claim (In most cases Cherokee)

Quote
Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about. It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favor of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

This is another good point.  They are with other people who make them feel validated.  And I think you were on to something about the need for consuling.  From what I can see, some of these people need severe psychological help.  Especially for people that have been living sometimes 20 or 30 years with a false identity and sense of entitlement. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 09, 2009, 06:25:04 pm
Moma_porcupine said
Quote
I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there are so many records and lists.

Yes, the Cherokees are probably the most documented of all the Indian Tribes in the United States.  Also, the Dawes and Baker Rolls are just one of many as there were many other Cherokee Rolls and censuses.  Here are a few I found listed online.
http://www.allthingscherokee.com/articles_gene_070101.html (http://www.allthingscherokee.com/articles_gene_070101.html)

I always here the story. ("My ancestor didn’t sign no rolls", "my ancestors hid out", "my ancestors were adopted", and my favorite, “the papers were burned in a fire”).  These explanations are for the most part baseless. 

Moma_porcupnine, you are one of a very few on this site that seems to be asking the same questions I and others have asked about this phenomena of being “part Cherokee” in America.  It seems to be generally accepted on this site to accept the fact that one is actually of “distant Indian ancestry”.  Part of my post is intended to challenge that whole assumption.  For reasons I mentioned before, and for ones that you elaborated on in your post are the reason for this. Your recent post about how these people who “Claim Cherokee/Indian heritage” would of course have more than “1” Cherokee ancestor speaks for itself. Your post on how “1” Cherokee grandparent would logically have “2” Cherokee Great Grandparents, etc, etc. is simple logic many overlook.   

I’ll say it again.  Many people that claim distant Indian ancestry, are not in fact of “Distant Indian ancestry”.  And by these people NOT being challenged on their claims, only embolden them more, and in a way, it helps them to validate themselves.  Some people often say “why are Native Americans” the only ethnic group that has to prove their heritage”.  Well, this is quite obvious as to why.  And it has to do with the lines that overlap between, race, ethnicity, and political citizenship.  There are Tribes such as the Cherokee Nation, Choctaw Nation, Poarch Band of Creek Indians, etc who have members and citizens who only possess a small fraction of Indian blood.  So, we cannot tell that they are NDN just by physical appearance.  So being Indian is a combination of race (in the sense of having Indian blood, but not necessarily being wholly racially Indian, ethnicity, and political citizenship.  Our proof of our political citizenship proves our heritage, which is especially important for enrolled members with low BQs. 

The Cherokee Nation has a policy of not questioning people’s claims of Cherokee heritage.  I would counter that this needs to be done.  The burden is on them.  If you’re not an enrolled member of a Federally Recognized Cherokee/Indian Tribe, then the burden is on you.  We don’t know who you are, or what your story is!  So Grandmas stories don’t cut it anymore.  There ARE other ways to validate someone’s story without being enrolled however, and there are a number of ways to do this.  But I’m sorry; this is how it should be.  The burden of Proof is on you!  It may be your inherent right to self identify however you want, yes.  But IT IS OUR inherent right to question those who claim to be us! 


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 09, 2009, 07:41:37 pm
But IT IS OUR inherent right to question those who claim to be us! 

I had a woman who stepped in and lived my life.  Took it from me, it is a long complicated story that I won't go into.  But the way I felt, I can never explain to anyone, there are no words. 

And I think you all have every right to question anyone who is claiming to be 'you'. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 09, 2009, 10:18:34 pm
Moma_porcupine said
Quote
I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there are so many records and lists.

Yes, the Cherokees are probably the most documented of all the Indian Tribes in the United States.  Also, the Dawes and Baker Rolls are just one of many as there were many other Cherokee Rolls and censuses.  Here are a few I found listed online.
http://www.allthingscherokee.com/articles_gene_070101.html (http://www.allthingscherokee.com/articles_gene_070101.html)

I always here the story. ("My ancestor didn’t sign no rolls", "my ancestors hid out", "my ancestors were adopted", and my favorite, “the papers were burned in a fire”).  These explanations are for the most part baseless. 

Moma_porcupnine, you are one of a very few on this site that seems to be asking the same questions I and others have asked about this phenomena of being “part Cherokee” in America.  It seems to be generally accepted on this site to accept the fact that one is actually of “distant Indian ancestry”.  Part of my post is intended to challenge that whole assumption.  For reasons I mentioned before, and for ones that you elaborated on in your post are the reason for this. Your recent post about how these people who “Claim Cherokee/Indian heritage” would of course have more than “1” Cherokee ancestor speaks for itself. Your post on how “1” Cherokee grandparent would logically have “2” Cherokee Great Grandparents, etc, etc. is simple logic many overlook.   

I’ll say it again.  Many people that claim distant Indian ancestry, are not in fact of “Distant Indian ancestry”.  And by these people NOT being challenged on their claims, only embolden them more, and in a way, it helps them to validate themselves.  Some people often say “why are Native Americans” the only ethnic group that has to prove their heritage”.  Well, this is quite obvious as to why.  And it has to do with the lines that overlap between, race, ethnicity, and political citizenship.  There are Tribes such as the Cherokee Nation, Choctaw Nation, Poarch Band of Creek Indians, etc who have members and citizens who only possess a small fraction of Indian blood.  So, we cannot tell that they are NDN just by physical appearance.  So being Indian is a combination of race (in the sense of having Indian blood, but not necessarily being wholly racially Indian, ethnicity, and political citizenship.  Our proof of our political citizenship proves our heritage, which is especially important for enrolled members with low BQs. 

The Cherokee Nation has a policy of not questioning people’s claims of Cherokee heritage.  I would counter that this needs to be done.  The burden is on them.  If you’re not an enrolled member of a Federally Recognized Cherokee/Indian Tribe, then the burden is on you.  We don’t know who you are, or what your story is!  So Grandmas stories don’t cut it anymore.  There ARE other ways to validate someone’s story without being enrolled however, and there are a number of ways to do this.  But I’m sorry; this is how it should be.  The burden of Proof is on you!  It may be your inherent right to self identify however you want, yes.  But IT IS OUR inherent right to question those who claim to be us! 




Black Wolf I agree with you as people call the tribe here with the long list of stories about grandma said or grandma looks like or they said I tell them they have to prove it to me that they belong to my people. For us they kept document ration list to census
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Ric_Richardson on November 09, 2009, 11:00:23 pm
Tansi;

As my deceased uncle said, "every time a Native person is born, two anthropologists are trained."

We are some of the most researched and documented people in North America, so it should always be possible for people, claiming Aboriginal heritage, to be able to prove it, with some effort.

Ric
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 10, 2009, 01:49:31 pm
Ric Richardson
Quote
We are some of the most researched and documented people in North America, so it should always be possible for people, claiming Aboriginal heritage, to be able to prove it, with some effort.

Here is a situation in Canada I came across when I was researching the Acadian Metis . Up in Newfoundland the canadian government is granting full status and federal recognition to people they are calling the founding members of a new Mi'kmaq First Nation, without requiring  proof beyond a doubt.

http://www.qalipu.com/m_faqs.asp
 
Quote
13. Do I have to prove beyond a doubt that I am a descendant of an aboriginal person?

No, but the more information you have to prove this, the stronger your application to be included on the Founding Members list—but you are not required to prove it “beyond a doubt.” The Enrolment Committee will be directed to consider whether you are a descendant of an aboriginal person on the balance of probabilities. In other words, the committee must be satisfied that it is “more likely than unlikely” that you are a descendant of such a person.

I wonder what they mean when they say people don't have to prove this beyond a doubt? Is there some reason the Native people in this area sometimes can't prove their lines of descent? Or has the canadian goverment decided to create new First Nations even when there is reasonable doubts about whether or not some ( or all ? ) of the members are of any Native descent? ( there is no limit on how far back this alleged ancestry can be either) I wonder how they wiegh the probabilities to see what the balance is? What objective criteria are they using to wiegh this? If someone in canada has figuered out how to wiegh probablities, that would be interesting and useful to know.  Assuming they have this figured out.

Seeing some of the Mohawk people complaining about the canadian governemt setting up fake tribes in order to displace legitimate Aboringinal title, some of the precedents here make me wonder...

http://www.mohawknationnews.com/news/singlenews.php?lang=en&layout
=mnn&category=58&newsnr=557&backurl=%2Fnews%2Fnews4.php%3Flang%3Den (http://www.mohawknationnews.com/news/singlenews.php?lang=en&layout
=mnn&category=58&newsnr=557&backurl=%2Fnews%2Fnews4.php%3Flang%3Den)

I wonder if there is some particular circumstances in this area of canada that make this policey make sense?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 10, 2009, 06:55:14 pm
I wonder, if by doing this, they will in the long run make the 'First Nations'  moot and invalid since it will be flooded with confused peoples.  To me, that seems to be the only reason for doing this. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 12:26:14 am
Not to interrupt the direction that this thread has taken but, I will toss this bit of a doc that I found in here for discussion.

quote:
Over the years, Congress often has included state-recognized tribes within legislation applying to federally recognized tribes.  Congress has subjected non-federally recognized tribes to Maine law and extinguished their claims to land within the State,  authorized state-recognized tribes to participate in Indian housing programs and Indian education programs,  included state-recognized tribes within the protections provided by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act,  protected state-recognized tribes’ lands from alienation,  authorized the Department of Agriculture to include tribes with state reservations for various programs,   and authorized members of state recognized tribes to receive services from the Indian Health Service.

Conclusion:
I know that a lot of folks don't like the idea of State tribes, but the simple fact is that they are recognized tribes, by their State and as such the Fed Gov. also sees them as such.

Many people bring up their slack requirements for enrollment, but as the Cherokee Nation well knows, Tribes have the sovereign right to set it's own policies with regards to enrollment requirements. Just ask Chad Smith, the Freeman or Obama.
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),
So what... They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes. each Tribe does things differently no matter if they are a Fed. Tribe or not.
I have also seen discussions about the State's requirements to recognize a Tribe. To this I find nothing in any Fed code that requires a State to have anything more that a procedure in place in order to determine them to be a Tribe. There is absolutely nothing in the codes that says how they do this but after it is done then,, IT IS DONE, They ARE a Tribe.
And not to leave out the part about a person from France moving to the USA and establishing a new France,,, To this I will point out the some what new Nations that are "brake aways" from other Nations such as the Republic of Georgia from the USSR (and a ton of other Yugoslavian/Baltic Nations) are no different than a State Tribe that broke away from the Cherokee Nation.  When, (how long ago or how recently) the break and/or reformation has nothing to do with it as long as it still falls within the requirements of the State that is extending the recognition. In recent years, The Keetoowah gained Fed recognition before the Cherokee Nation did, but that doesn't mean that the Cherokee Nation is any less of a Tribe than any other. Like it or not that is the same for the State Tribes too...

Disclaimer:
Personally I have made a choice to align with the Satellite community of the Cherokee Nation. However,,, I still see the legal legitimacy of State Tribes.  And acknowledge their sovereign rights to do things as they wish.  And if you didn't notice,,, I didn't say anything about the tons of Fake tribes that have NO  recognition... I say , Run the bums out of town,,, but before you do that, Take the time to research them. And I don't mean an internet web search.    
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 01:26:36 am
Quote
Many people bring up their slack requirements for enrollment, but as the Cherokee Nation well knows, Tribes have the sovereign right to set it's own policies with regards to enrollment requirements.


That is, if a Tribe is actually a Tribe.  I do agree with the second part of what you say Paul123 "Tribes have the sovereign right to set it's own policies with regards to enrollment requirements".  However, I think this question has already been answered for most of us as to the legitimacy of most of these so called Tribes.   


http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2344.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2344.0)

Quote
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),

Yes, and with good reason.  They are mocking our ancestors.






Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 01:39:13 am
Quote
They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes. each Tribe does things differently no matter if they are a Fed. Tribe or not.


Actually, what they are doing (in the case of the fake Cherokee Tribes), is they are stealing the name, history and heritage of the Cherokee people.  In many cases they are fabricating their own twisted HIstories of what they think Cherokee History is or should be.  What most of them do, is they take strerotypical Hollywood images, names and ideas of what they think Indians are.  ( They know nothing of Cherokees, becauce their whole idenity is fabricated.  Not to mention the fact that there is no "generic Indian" culture.  These people are nothing more then clowns.  They should be ashamed of themselves!  In my opinion, they are nothing more then a disgrace, and have made a mockery of a proud people.   

To say that they just "do things differently" is really incredible Paul123.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 01:40:56 am
Not to interrupt the direction that this thread has taken but, I will toss this bit of a doc that I found in here for discussion.

quote:
Over the years, Congress often has included state-recognized tribes within legislation applying to federally recognized tribes.  Congress has subjected non-federally recognized tribes to Maine law and extinguished their claims to land within the State,  authorized state-recognized tribes to participate in Indian housing programs and Indian education programs,  included state-recognized tribes within the protections provided by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act,  protected state-recognized tribes’ lands from alienation,  authorized the Department of Agriculture to include tribes with state reservations for various programs,   and authorized members of state recognized tribes to receive services from the Indian Health Service.

Conclusion:
I know that a lot of folks don't like the idea of State tribes, but the simple fact is that they are recognized tribes, by their State and as such the Fed Gov. also sees them as such.

Many people bring up their slack requirements for enrollment, but as the Cherokee Nation well knows, Tribes have the sovereign right to set it's own policies with regards to enrollment requirements. Just ask Chad Smith, the Freeman or Obama.
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),
So what... They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes. each Tribe does things differently no matter if they are a Fed. Tribe or not.
I have also seen discussions about the State's requirements to recognize a Tribe. To this I find nothing in any Fed code that requires a State to have anything more that a procedure in place in order to determine them to be a Tribe. There is absolutely nothing in the codes that says how they do this but after it is done then,, IT IS DONE, They ARE a Tribe.
And not to leave out the part about a person from France moving to the USA and establishing a new France,,, To this I will point out the some what new Nations that are "brake aways" from other Nations such as the Republic of Georgia from the USSR (and a ton of other Yugoslavian/Baltic Nations) are no different than a State Tribe that broke away from the Cherokee Nation.  When, (how long ago or how recently) the break and/or reformation has nothing to do with it as long as it still falls within the requirements of the State that is extending the recognition. In recent years, The Keetoowah gained Fed recognition before the Cherokee Nation did, but that doesn't mean that the Cherokee Nation is any less of a Tribe than any other. Like it or not that is the same for the State Tribes too...

Disclaimer:
Personally I have made a choice to align with the Satellite community of the Cherokee Nation. However,,, I still see the legal legitimacy of State Tribes.  And acknowledge their sovereign rights to do things as they wish.  And if you didn't notice,,, I didn't say anything about the tons of Fake tribes that have NO  recognition... I say , Run the bums out of town,,, but before you do that, Take the time to research them. And I don't mean an internet web search.    


Quote
Over the years, Congress often has included state-recognized tribes within legislation applying to federally recognized tribes.  Congress has subjected non-federally recognized tribes to Maine law and extinguished their claims to land within the State,  authorized state-recognized tribes to participate in Indian housing programs and Indian education programs,  included state-recognized tribes within the protections provided by the Indian Arts and Crafts Act,  protected state-recognized tribes’ lands from alienation,  authorized the Department of Agriculture to include tribes with state reservations for various programs,   and authorized members of state recognized tribes to receive services from the Indian Health Service.

 You are most likely comparing apples to oranges here and because they are both fruit, declaring them the same thing.

 In cases such as the tribes in Maine, they are most likely like many hundreds of NDN bands in California and the thousands of their members. In these cases the people are mostly NDN by blood if not full blooded.

 I have already pointed this out to you in one thread, in which it was pointed out that they were recognized as NDN for certain things, but not for some things. Typically of course tribes and people that fall under these categories are undeniably NDN, raised as such, and are culturally of their said tribe.

 On the other end of the spectrum you have these bogus tribes popping up in mostly the Southeast who have next to no proof they are who they say they are, and are as NON NDN by blood as they are lacking in the cultural of the people they claim to allegedly come from.

 
Quote
I know that a lot of folks don't like the idea of State tribes, but the simple fact is that they are recognized tribes, by their State and as such the Fed Gov. also sees them as such

 If that were true in the sense you are trying to present things here, then why are they to get federally recognized?

 The federal government does not recognize them, and they do not fall under the same category as those tribes in Maine in which you are trying compare them to.

 I think the tribes in Maine who are state recognized would possibly be similar to that of the Lumbee, but probably more NDN by blood, and have more of their original culture. Both the state and the feds realize the Lumbee are NDN, but they do not have full status.

 Can we say that about the Echota or most so called "state tribes?" No, we obviously can not.

Quote
Many people bring up their slack requirements for enrollment, but as the Cherokee Nation well knows, Tribes have the sovereign right to set it's own policies with regards to enrollment requirements. Just ask Chad Smith

 Again, you are trying to compare apples to oranges here. Chad Smith is a elected tribal leader of a tribal government that has had government to government relationship with the United States since historic times. It has been in existence since time immemorial and has inherent sovereignty.

 Being that inherent sovereign means having always been sovereign, there is no comparison between them and a  faux state tribe seeking recognition that had never existed as a tribe historically or otherwise.


Quote
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),
So what...

 What?

 Powwows do not count as tribal culture, and neither does their dance moves. Though the dances and regalia is based on traditional things of certain tribes, you can have a Miwok woman from California dancing jingle style which is a dance that originated in the northeast.

 Though they do have some real spiritual aspects to them, and some historical attributes that tie into that spiritual nature, they are however commercial in nature today for the most part.

 It seems to me that you are insinuating here that somebody claiming to be an Echota Cherokee could take on Fancy Dancing since they have no clue about traditional Cherokee dances, and then adopt Fancy Dancing as "part of their culture."

 In that respect I could say I am Irish, and take on dances that originated in Russia since Russians are Caucasian same as the Irish since I know no Irish dances. They start my own little Ireland here and use Russian culture I borrowed from going to commercially bases Russian dance sessions.

It simply does not work that way.........


Quote
They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes.

 Though this statement by you was in conjunction with your statements about dances and what not, I chose to separate it.

 Legitimate and historical tribes generally do not need to adopt the dances from others, and especially those dances found at powwows. This is even if their traditional dances and culture has been severely damaged by the forces of assimilation and wars/disease of the past.

Quote
I have also seen discussions about the State's requirements to recognize a Tribe. To this I find nothing in any Fed code that requires a State to have anything more that a procedure in place in order to determine them to be a Tribe. There is absolutely nothing in the codes that says how they do this but after it is done then,, IT IS DONE, They ARE a Tribe.

 Maybe when you engage in this conversation next time, you will have researched the separation of powers in the United States government and realized that federal power is above state power.

 That in mind I must point out that federally recognized tribes are historic tribes have inherent sovereignty because they have always existed. This as already pointed out, is very much unlike most faux state tribes. By definition they are domestic dependent nations, and therefore in the separation of powers within the United States government, are higher then that of the states themselves.

 So that in mind, a state such Alabama recognizing the existence of a tribe makes about as much sense as Alabama trying to recognize a break away republic in the former Soviet Union. States are below both tribal and federal government in the separation of powers within the United States government.
 
Quote
To this I will point out the some what new Nations that are "brake aways" from other Nations such as the Republic of Georgia from the USSR (and a ton of other Yugoslavian/Baltic Nations) are no different than a State Tribe that broke away from the Cherokee Nation

 This analogy fails you in every way Paul.

 First and foremost some of those "break away Republics" were nations that too have always existed to some degree or another, and at one time had been invaded by either Russia or later the Soviets and taken over much like tribal nations here. I see no difference in that situation to be honest.

 Secondly the people involved in these republics actual people and ethnic groups, with actual cultures they too have practiced since time immemorial in most cases.

 On both counts, this is very much NOT like the situation with your state tribes. They are typically people with zero cultural awareness of the people they claim to be, and ethnically practically entirely something else as well.

 So instead of them being like Armenians who had a nation of their own in times past, and always their own culture; they are mostly something else both culturally and by blood and yet you think they are the same.

Quote
The Keetoowah gained Fed recognition before the Cherokee Nation did, but that doesn't mean that the Cherokee Nation is any less of a Tribe than any other. Like it or not that is the same for the State Tribes too...  

 Both people are a proven historic tribe, and had one time been politically the exact same thing. In both cases they are an actual people that have mountains of evidence to prove that fact.

 Can we say the same about a group of people such as the Echota?? No, we certainly can not.
 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 01:46:12 am
Just wanted to add that Rattlebone makes a good point.  And you CANT catagorize all State Recognized Tribes, and sometmies even non recognized Tribes.  I always use the example of the fake Cherokee Tribes, because the Cherokees are my Tribe.  And I know I've said it before.  There are legit Tribes that are State Recognized and/or un recognized in some instances.  The sheer number of fake Tribes recognzied by States does however tarnish the name of all State Recognzied Tribes.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 01:48:28 am
Quote
It seems to me that you are insinuating here that somebody claiming to be an Echota Cherokee could take on Fancy Dancing since they have no clue about traditional Cherokee dances, and then adopt Fancy Dancing as "part of their culture."

hahahahahahahaaha.  I want front row seats for that one!
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 01:55:20 am
well, well I knew that would wake up this thread,,,

Way to much to reply to.
But again I point out that just because one doesn't like it,,, these State Tribes are there and have some forms of Fed. recognition.  many here confuse politics and law with culture.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 01:56:14 am
Just wanted to add that Rattlebone makes a good point.  And you CANT catagorize all State Recognized Tribes, and sometmies even non recognized Tribes.  I always use the example of the fake Cherokee Tribes, because the Cherokees are my Tribe.  And I know I've said it before.  There are legit Tribes that are State Recognized and/or un recognized in some instances.  The sheer number of fake Tribes recognzied by States does however tarnish the name of all State Recognzied Tribes.

Agreed...
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:06:41 am
RB said:
" Maybe when you engage in this conversation next time, you will have researched the separation of powers in the United States government and realized that federal power is above state power."

True the Fed does have power is above state power, but they legislate recognition of State Tribes in some of their policies. You can't say that they don't. (or would you like some citations?) And in as much as they do that, then the Fed is recognizing that there are State Tribes. True,  they give different benefits but that has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:41:38 am
Oh well let me toss in some citations anyway,,,

The typical definition of Indian tribe is 25 U.S.C. § 450b(e):
The term "Indian tribe" means any Indian tribe, band, nation, or other organized group or community, including an Alaska Native Village Corporation or Regional Corporation (as defined in or established pursuant to the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act), which is recognized as eligible for the special programs and services provided by the United States to Indians because of their status as Indians.


The "Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981," PL 97-35, August 13, 1981, introduced eligibility for community service block grants to state recognized tribes and tribal organizations. Section 674(c)(5) states:
The terms "Indian tribe" and "tribal organization" mean those tribes, bands, or other organized groups of Indians recognized in the State in which they reside or considered by the Secretary of the Interior to be an Indian tribe or an Indian organization for any purpose.


“express recognition” 45 C.F.R. § 96.44 (b) states:
The terms "Indian tribe" and "tribal organization" as used in the Reconciliation Act have the same meaning given such terms in section 4(b) and 4(c) of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act (25 U.S.C. 450b). The terms also include organized groups of Indians that the State in which they reside has determined are Indian tribes. An organized group of Indians is eligible for direct funding based on State recognition if the State has expressly determined that the group is an Indian tribe. In addition, the statement of the State's chief executive officer verifying that a tribe is recognized by that State will also be sufficient to verify State recognition for the purpose of direct funding.

the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, 25 U.S.C. § 305e (d), introduced the term “state recognized tribe” into federal law.


So, like it or not,,, one can point out all of the things about culture that they want but the law is the law.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 02:47:10 am
RB said:
" Maybe when you engage in this conversation next time, you will have researched the separation of powers in the United States government and realized that federal power is above state power."

True the Fed does have power is above state power, but they legislate recognition of State Tribes in some of their policies. You can't say that they don't. (or would you like some citations?) And in as much as they do that, then the Fed is recognizing that there are State Tribes. True,  they give different benefits but that has nothing to do with it.

 I have already gone over this with you. In some capacity the feds do recognize state tribes or even those tribes with no recognition because the federal government realizes they are indeed native.

 Do you mean to tell me that you think that some blond haired, blue eyed person who only claims to be NDN because of some ggggggggg grandmother story is just as much as some NDN as some state recognized NDN from a real tribe, who knows their culture and experiences racism for being NDN and having dark skin????

 The difference between a real state recognized tribe and a faux one like the Echota is this.

 The real one has always been a tribe, and unlike the Echota people, the members of the real tribe can't pick and chose when they want to be NDN or not. They are NDN 24/7, and go through the hardships and racism for being NDN.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:54:35 am
Why do you keep bringing up the Echotas into this? I have not said one word about them in this thread. ( or any other Tribe,, well I did mention the Cherokee nation) And you still keep confusing law with culture. I was only talking about law when I tossed out the quote in my post #111.
If one doesn't like the cultural aspects of some State Tribes then Change the Laws.  

"Do you mean to tell me that you think that some blond haired, blue eyed person who only claims to be NDN because of some ggggggggg grandmother....."

The Cherokee Nation is full of people just like that.
Do you mean to tell me that being NDN is based on ones looks?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 02:57:44 am
Why do you keep bringing up the Echotas into this? I have not said one word about them in this thread. ( or any other Tribe,, well I did mention the Cherokee nation) And you still keep confusing law with culture. I was only talking about law when I tossed out the quote in my post #111.
If one doesn't like the cultural aspects of some State Tribes then Change the Laws.  

 Because it is a perfect example of frauds trying to get state recognition in order to find loop holes in  getting recognized falsely as NDN, and then take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children by leaching off of funding earmarked for NDN people.


 It seems to me that you support such things since you are arguing in the defense of such organizations.

  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 03:03:35 am
Why do you keep bringing up the Echotas into this? I have not said one word about them in this thread. ( or any other Tribe,, well I did mention the Cherokee nation) And you still keep confusing law with culture. I was only talking about law when I tossed out the quote in my post #111.
If one doesn't like the cultural aspects of some State Tribes then Change the Laws.  

 Because it is a perfect example of frauds trying to get state recognition in order to find loop holes in  getting recognized falsely as NDN, and then take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children by leaching off of funding earmarked for NDN people.


 It seems to me that you support such things since you are arguing in the defense of such organizations.

Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

And The Echotas already have state recognition.
So yea, I support their rights as the law defines it.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 03:14:58 am
Why do you keep bringing up the Echotas into this? I have not said one word about them in this thread. ( or any other Tribe,, well I did mention the Cherokee nation) And you still keep confusing law with culture. I was only talking about law when I tossed out the quote in my post #111.
If one doesn't like the cultural aspects of some State Tribes then Change the Laws.  

 Because it is a perfect example of frauds trying to get state recognition in order to find loop holes in  getting recognized falsely as NDN, and then take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children by leaching off of funding earmarked for NDN people.


 It seems to me that you support such things since you are arguing in the defense of such organizations.

Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

And The Echotas already have state recognition.
So yea, I support their rights as the law defines it.



 That is exactly what it does.

 I know cases of Lakota women on Pine Ridge with over 5 children getting what amounts to $80 a month from the federal government. This is in an area where there are no jobs.

 I did read your arguement about funding, and felt it was rather pompous of you.

Why should somebody who little to no proof of being NDN get one red cent, when real NDN people are in such dire conditions?

 Are you so self absorbed and heartless in your claim to be seen as NDN, and those like you being seeing as NDN that you would put your "identity" over feeding children?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 03:26:27 am
Quote
“express recognition” 45 C.F.R. § 96.44 (b) states:
The terms "Indian tribe" and "tribal organization" as used in the Reconciliation Act have the same meaning given such terms in section 4(b) and 4(c) of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act (25 U.S.C. 450b). The terms also include organized groups of Indians that the State in which they reside has determined are Indian tribes. An organized group of Indians is eligible for direct funding based on State recognition if the State has expressly determined that the group is an Indian tribe. In addition, the statement of the State's chief executive officer verifying that a tribe is recognized by that State will also be sufficient to verify State recognition for the purpose of direct funding.

So a simple statement from a governor opens the door to funding and Indian artist status. Honorary resolutions that have no state financial impact are often on a consent agenda or otherwise fly through the legislative process without scrutiny. Given this wide latitude and the possibility of extra federal money directed to the state, states have been generous in doling out recognition. And federal agencies have been generous in giving funding not based on historic treaty obligations but simply a recent state resolution or executive proclamation.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 03:27:39 am



 That is exactly what it does.

 I know cases of Lakota women on Pine Ridge with over 5 children getting what amounts to $80 a month from the federal government. This is in an area where there are no jobs.

Well I'm sure sorry for the people on the wrong side of their Tribes allotments but,site one example of a State tribe taking one cent that would have went to a Fed Tribe,,, You can't.

As for the "self absorbed and heartless" thingy
 well I won't even reply to posts that digress to name calling. Sure we have had a rather charged debate and so far it has been civil. We can disagree but be respectful to each other.
If you care to rephrase, I will reply (with respect to you).   


 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 03:30:33 am
Quote
“express recognition” 45 C.F.R. § 96.44 (b) states:
The terms "Indian tribe" and "tribal organization" as used in the Reconciliation Act have the same meaning given such terms in section 4(b) and 4(c) of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act (25 U.S.C. 450b). The terms also include organized groups of Indians that the State in which they reside has determined are Indian tribes. An organized group of Indians is eligible for direct funding based on State recognition if the State has expressly determined that the group is an Indian tribe. In addition, the statement of the State's chief executive officer verifying that a tribe is recognized by that State will also be sufficient to verify State recognition for the purpose of direct funding.

So a simple statement from a governor opens the door to funding and Indian artist status. Honorary resolutions that have no state financial impact are often on a consent agenda or otherwise fly through the legislative process without scrutiny. Given this wide latitude and the possibility of extra federal money directed to the state, states have been generous in doling out recognition. And federal agencies have been generous in giving funding not based on historic treaty obligations but simply a recent state resolution or executive proclamation.



Yea, that just about sums it up and then it becomes LAW.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 03:37:47 am

Quote
Yea, that just about sums it up and then it becomes LAW.

Well States are breaking the law then, because only Congress has power over Indian Affairs. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 03:43:21 am

Quote
Yea, that just about sums it up and then it becomes LAW.

Well States are breaking the law then, because only Congress has power over Indian Affairs.  

Sure Congress has that power, but at the same time they have legislated a form of recognition to the State Tribes. And then that becomes law. So the States are not breaking the law. It was Congress that legislated it. I guess it comes down to Congress knowing that there are a lot of NDNs that aren't citizens of Fed. Tribes.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 03:46:52 am
I'd also like to clarify something.  Although, I'm againts "State Recognized Tribes", I'm not againts Legitimite Historic Tribes that lost Federal Recognition, from having State Recognition.  Sometimes, its the only way for these Tribes to receive any Federal Money and better themselves.  

If for example, lets say, the Creek Nation lost Federal Recognition, due to a termination bill, and they had the oppurtunity to later be recognized by the state of Oklahoma, I would support that, because under the circumstances, they don't have any other alternative,and they should take what ever they can in order to better their tribe.  

I am however in principle againts the "State Recognition" of Tribes because REAL Indian Tribes are goverment entities that require a "Goverment to Goveremtn" relationship with the Federal Goverment.  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 03:59:28 am
I'd also like to clarify something.  Although, I'm againts "State Recognized Tribes", I'm not againts Legitimite Historic Tribes that lost Federal Recognition, from having State Recognition.  Sometimes, its the only way for these Tribes to receive any Federal Money and better themselves.  

If for example, lets say, the Creek Nation lost Federal Recognition, due to a termination bill, and they had the oppurtunity to later be recognized by the state of Oklahoma, I would support that, because under the circumstances, they don't have any other alternative,and they should take what ever they can in order to better their tribe.  

I am however in principle againts the "State Recognition" of Tribes because REAL Indian Tribes are goverment entities that require a "Goverment to Goveremtn" relationship with the Federal Goverment.  

Agreed...
There are termination bills out there as we speak. And there are cracks in the floor over at the BIA that are big enough to toss an NDN through. We all know this. I thought that this thread was discussing these such things, not the Echotas.

I'm against tossing every apple into the bad apple barrel without a true investigation as to what their claims are.  

I revived this thread to discuss the legal aspects of State Tribes and to point out that they do have some quasi form of recognition. It is the law as we have it now. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws. And like them or not,,, it is what it is,,,
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 11, 2009, 04:12:10 am
Interesting read.  Law.  Well, there are laws, but doesn' t mean they are good laws.  I'd be careful in saying something like "So yea, I support their rights as the law defines it."

Slavery was law, fortunately, more people came NOT to support the rights of slave owners.

Not making comparisons, just making statement on supporting a groups 'rights' based on a 'law' since some laws are very faulty.

Also, in reading all this, I'm getting the idea that the states and possibly the fed sort of pass the fake tribes and whatnots so as not to have to actually 'deal' with the issue of Indians in America.  It's almost like .. someone pops up claiming to be a tribe.. and the states settle with them right away like 'hush' money or something.  So, you may be right Paul in that the money going to the fake tribes would not be going to the recognized tribes anyway..  but..  if the fed has money to give to states for their 'fake' tribes, then the fed has that same money they could allocate to recognized tribes.. some how they don't have it.. until a fake tribe clammors in and the state wants money to shut them up.

That's sort of my take on this ease of states granting tribes funds. 

I do believe these laws need to be changed.  Also seems to me, since the fed recognizes the sovereignty of the Indian nation, then the Indian nation(s) have a right to demand a stop to the giving of funds to non recognized or fake tribes.  As 'nation to nation'.  The USA has no real right to claim a tribe as part of the Indian 'nation'.  Or am I thinking wrong in some way..   

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 04:35:03 am
Sure some of the more accepted State Tribes got some stimulus money this year.  an example may be that a State Tribe got a few thousand dollars while at the same time the Cherokee Nation got 50 million dollars. Keep in mind that this is stimulus money and won't go to the poor lady that only gets the 80 bucks mentioned in past posts here but, it is still money that the Fed tribe would not have gotten or else they would have.

Sure the laws need to be changed. The BIA needs an overhaul. I do think that this is in process.
 
I don't think that any state (well perhaps not Georgia) just passes out recognition. Alabama has some of the most stringent laws around regarding this. Sure there are some here that make light of them but please read their requirements before believing some of the stuff posted about their handing out recognition. LOM posted a link to their requirements in another thread and I won't clog up this thread by re-posting them here. One of the things is that the Tribe has to have been around for 200 years. I think that is way longer that the BIA requires.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 04:49:50 am
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 05:00:55 am
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?
There are always two (or more) sides of any discussion.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 07:41:57 am

Paul123 said
Quote
Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?

I thought we agreed that there are too many fake State Recognized Tribes out there.  So, when you say "State ones", we have to clarify "WHO" we are talking about.  The Real Historic Tribes with State Recognition or a group of primarily "white people" with vague stories of some misterious and distant Cherokee ancestor that hid out in the woods almost 200 years ago? 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: LittleOldMan on November 11, 2009, 11:47:31 am
Here you go folks.  Good or bad this is the law in Alabama.  "LOM"         
CHAPTER 475-X-3 PROCEDURES AND CRITERIA FOR THE RECOGNITION OF INDIAN TRIBES, BANDS, GROUPS AND ASSOCIATIONS

TABLE OF CONTENTS

475-X-3-.01 Procedure For Recognition

475-X-3-.02 Types Of Recognition

475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group

475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association

475-X-3-.01 Procedure For Recognition.

(1) Petitioner shall submit to the Alabama Indian Affairs Commission a petition requesting state recognition which contains the information described below. The petition must indicate the type of recognition sought as specified in Rule No. 475-X-3-.02 of these regulations.

(2) A decision in favor of recognition must be rendered by a simple majority of the commission members. The time period in which the commission may research and verify the petition shall not exceed one (1) year from the date upon which all evidence required from the petitioner is delivered to the office of the commission.

(3) A decision of denial may be timely appealed. Such appeal for reconsideration must be made not later than 30 days from the date of the commission decision. The request for reconsideration shall specify one of the following categories:

(a) Appeal with New and/or Additional Evidence:

1. Petitioner shall prepare an appeal of petition which presents new or additional evidence not previously presented to the commission for consideration. Petitioner shall have 90 days from the date of the request for reconsideration within which to submit said new or additional evidence.

(b) Appeal without New and/or Additional Evidence:

1. Petitioner shall prepare an appeal of petition stating specifically why the commission should reconsider its decision. Petitioner shall have 30 days from the date of request for reconsideration to present its case for reconsideration.

(c) In either of the above situations, the petitioner appellant must be afforded a hearing within 60 days of receipt of such documentation as stated in (a) and (b) above. The commission shall thereafter render its decision not more than twelve (12) months from the date of such hearing.

(d) All notices called for shall be in writing by certified or registered mail.

Authors: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985.

475-X-3-.02 Types Of Recognition.

(1) An "Indian Tribe, Band, or Group" is a population of Indian people related to one another by blood through their Indian ancestry, tracing their heritage to an Indian tribe, band, or group indigenous to Alabama. No splinter groups, political factions, communities or groups of any character which separate from the main body of a tribe, band, or group currently recognized by the State of Alabama may be considered for recognition by the Commission. A state recognized Indian tribe, band, or group may apply to the Commission on behalf of its members for assistance and information regarding services and benefits to Indians.

(2) An "Indian Association" is an organization of Indian people made up of members of state or federally recognized Indian tribes, bands or groups who have joined together to form such association, the purposes of which are documented by the association's bylaws or constitution. Ninety percent of the association's membership must be Indian. Membership in an Indian association does not of itself certify an individual as Indian. A state recognized Indian association may apply to the commission on behalf of its Indian members for assistance and information regarding services and benefits to Indians.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Amended: Filed April 5, 1995; effective May 10, 1995.

475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group.

(1) Petitioner must meet all criteria as specified in this section.

(2) Petitioner must present a list of at least two hundred and fifty (250) members of the tribe, band, or group (list must be inclusive by name and addresses), unless this requirement is waived by an affirmative vote of three-fourths (3/4) of the membership of the commission.

(3) Petitioner must present evidence that each of its members is a descendent of individuals recognized as Indian members of an historical Alabama tribe, band, or group found on rolls compiled by the federal government or otherwise identified on other official records or documents. Ancestry charts for each member citing sources of documentation must accompany the petition. Each chart must bear the notarized signature of the individual to whom it pertains. Photocopies of such documentation shall be made available to the commission upon request.

(4) Petitioner must present satisfactory evidence that its members form a kinship group whose Indian ancestors were related by blood and such ancestors were members of a tribe, band or group indigenous to Alabama. This evidence may be the equivalent of the ancestry charts required in Section 3 above.

(5) The petitioner must swear or affirm the following:

(a) No individual holding or eligible for membership in a federally or state recognized tribe, band or group may be accepted for membership in the petitioning group.

NOTE: This requirement is for the protection of members of federally or state recognized tribes who might otherwise forfeit services by becoming members of a non-recognized tribal group.

(b) That the criteria used by the petitioner in determining eligibility of individuals for membership includes but is not limited to the requirement of kinship through Indian ancestors who were members of a tribe indigenous to Alabama.

(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.

(7) Petitioner must include a statement bearing the notarized signatures of the three highest ranking officers of the petitioning tribe, band or group certifying that to the best of their knowledge and belief all information contained therein is true and accurate.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Emergency amendment filed August 28, 1985. Permanent amendment filed November 5, 1985.

475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association.

(1) To be recognized as an Indian association, the petitioner must show at least a ninety percent of its enrolled members are Indian. The remaining members may be either Indian or non-Indian or members of tribes, bands or groups not recognized by the state or federal government.

(2) Petitioner must present to the commission the association's membership list including the names and addresses of all members and the designated tribal affiliation of its Indian members.

(3) A copy of the bylaws and constitution or purpose clause of the petitioning group must accompany said petition and be received by the commission.

(4) The petitioner must swear or affirm that at least ninety percent of its membership is Indian. No petition shall be granted a hearing where it is shown that the association, its bylaws, or purpose clause is contrary to public policy.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.History: Filed April 5, 1985.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 12:38:47 pm
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

So should we only support the laws that we like and disregard the rest?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 11, 2009, 01:23:15 pm
As I understand it, the reason federal recognition is respected , is because there is criteria in place so you can be sure any groups that meet these requirements really are tribes. When it comes to federal recognition it seems the criteria are so rigourously applied that it's very difficult for even an obviously legimate tribe to be approved. The problem with State tribes is the opposit. The criteria defining this also allow groups which aren't tribes to be recignized as tribes or that groups which don't meet their own criteria are recognized anyways.

This appears to be what is going on in Alabama.

From Little Old Man's post above
Quote
(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.

Repeating what I posted in reply 128 of the di8scussion with Paul about the Echota Cherokee in the thread below
 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2344.120


http://aiac.state.al.us/tribes_EchotaCherokee.aspx

Quote
The Echota Cherokee Tribe
Rising from the Ashes
The members of the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama are the descendants of those Indian people who escaped the infamous “Trail of Tears” by hiding out in the mountainous backwoods and lowlands of the Southeast. Others fled from the march after it began and others simply walked away and came home after reaching Indian Territory. They kept to themselves, did not speak the language and did not teach it to their children for fear the child might speak it in the presence of someone who would learn the secret of their ancestry. If this happened, they could immediately be taken into custody and sent to Indian Territory in the west. Everything they owned could be given away by the State.

As much as possible our people assimilated into the white populace and claimed to be “Black Dutch” or some other type of European to explain their slightly darker color. Since nearly all work was done outdoors, most people had a tan anyway. However, most of us remember stories of our family members who always wore large straw hats and long sleeves in the summer because they did not want to become any darker than they already were.

During the early gatherings of our people, old stories or “legends” were told, crafts were demonstrated, and those who still knew a few words of the Cherokee language shared it with all. We struggled then and struggle now to preserve our history and culture. Everyone brought “covered dishes” to those gatherings and we enjoyed the pleasure of potluck dinners. It was wonderful to fellowship with others who shared the common bond. Friendships that were developed early on have lasted to this day.

Soon it was realized that we should have a “name” and become a more formalized group. At a meeting in Opelika, Alabama on March 16, 1980 the name, “ECHOTA” was chosen. The Phoenix was chosen as our symbol since we were rising from the ashes of our burned villages and forced removal, to join and reclaim that which was almost lost to us.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070404012211/www.echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com/Joe.html
Joe Two Eagles
Quote
Charlotte Stewart Hallmark has worked diligently for the Echota Cherokees since before we even had a name. I doubt very seriously if there would even be a tribe if she had not taken the high road and persevered after I retired from tribal activity because of health conditions.
So these people seem to be saying their "early gatherings" as a tribe was in the 1980's and involved people alive today. They had no name for themselves, no collective history since they went into hiding as individual families, and their identity as a "tribe" was so fragile it depended on the perserverence of one individual.

That doesn't appear to meet the criteria Alabama itself says it requires.

Even if the criteria would in theory identify a legit tribe, it's entirely meaningless if groups are recognized as tribes that don't meet the criteria.
 
It's pretty obvious to me that it's useless talking to Paul because he just ignores everything that doesn't lead to the conclusion he is determined to reach.

I'm still not sure why he is determined to reach this conclusion. He obviously isn't really wanting a connection with the culture as he doersn't even care or see a difference between the real culture and an imitation.

Paul
Reply #111
Quote
Others will pick apart their cultural presentations (ie. pow wow regalia, dance moves and such),
So what...They set what they do within their own rights as a Tribe not based on other Tribes. each Tribe does things differently no matter if they are a Fed. Tribe or not.

Maybe this is the reason

Paul Reply #87
Quote
It's all about the money honey.. and it always has been and always will be. if it weren't for the money thing I dare say that this very thread wouldn't have been needed. 

Paul
Quote
Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

That really wasn't funny Paul. In fact I am finding your ability to completely ignore everything that is said that you don't like, and your complete lack of concern for the real impact this has on real indigenous peoples,  pretty disgusting.


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 01:38:46 pm

Paul123 said
Quote
Bad for which NDNs? the Fed ones or the State ones?

I thought we agreed that there are too many fake State Recognized Tribes out there.  So, when you say "State ones", we have to clarify "WHO" we are talking about.  The Real Historic Tribes with State Recognition or a group of primarily "white people" with vague stories of some misterious and distant Cherokee ancestor that hid out in the woods almost 200 years ago? 

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?
Again I will point out that there are a higher percentage of "White looking" people in the CN and as for the State Tribes, sure there have been changes to the enrollment requirements of these Tribes over the years from the time when they got their recognition.

Look, I'll give you an example of what I feel is a fake tribe. Here in Fla. there is or perhaps was (their web site is gone now) a group using the Cherokee name. Their web site had a side bar of links such as Home, Chiefs, Tribal land, Housing authority, Tribal Police, enrollment and what ever. When I looked at the page about their Police dept. there were photos of about 6 of them, they had a chief of police and the rest were deputies. 4 of them had the same last name.  Well now I click on the tribal land page and found an address. So now I google map the address and found that their "Tribal Land" was one single house in a typical inter city  neighborhood. A search of the property tax rolls show that the tribal chief (who is also the police chief) was the legal owner not the tribe. Then on the enrollment page I find a statement that said that you don't have to have one drop of NDN blood. Now there was no fee to submit an application but it did say that under their tribal law that there would be from time to time an assessment fee.  So not only do I think that this bunch are fake, but now they are impersonating police officers too.

On the other end of this thread are the likes of the Lumbee. 'nuff said about them we all respect their rights. So this leaves all of the other NDN tribes/Tribes that fall in between these two.
 
My position on this is simple,,,
If they have State recondition. (from a State that has strict standards) Then they are a Tribe, with all of the respect due any real Tribe. (whether we like them or not).

 And if they have NO  recondition, then they are a tribe. and as such should be investigated for fraud. (like that new bunch in Ala. that just bought a golf course and want to open a casino)  and like I said before, Altho it's a good place to start,  investigated doesn't mean just a web search. like I did with the "The cherokee national golf and country club tribe"  I would welcome an investigation by their State's Attorney Gen. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 11, 2009, 01:44:44 pm
^5 Moma!! Excellent post! You've put into words what I've been thinking. This has been discussed with Paul on at least two separate threads; he just doesn't get it.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 01:46:19 pm
@Moma_porcupine, et al
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm debating it. If you really want me to I could just as easily debate the other side. But how boring would this thread be if everyone agreed. we could all just sit around and pat our selves on the back. If you don't wish to discuss anything with me, that is of course your choice. And If you don't feel that this group or that group is what they say they are, then prove it. Do the research. Where's the beef?

You said:
"It's pretty obvious to me that it's useless talking to Paul because he just ignores everything that doesn't lead to the conclusion he is determined to reach."

And you don't see that you also have made up your mind as well. and that it is useless to discuss any other position with you  (no matter what the law is in this regard).
 
I have pointed out what it is in legal terms but you keep pointing out what you think it should be.  

If this thread gets past the emotions of what it should be then perhaps we could discuss how to change the laws.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 11, 2009, 02:12:25 pm
Question:  Who determines State Recognition in Alabama? Who decides if a group is a legitimate tribe? 

Answer:  The Alabama Indian Affairs Commission


Tribes Recognized by the State of Alabama 
 
Quote
Poarch Band of Creek Indians
Buford Rolin, Chairman
5811 Jack Springs Road
Atmore, AL 36502
(251) 368-9136
Website: www.poarchcreekindians.org
(Note: Also recognized by the Federal Government)
 
Echota Cherokee Tribe Of Alabama
Charlotte S. Hallmark, Chief
630 County Road 1281
Falkville, AL 35622-3346
(256) 734-7337/ FAX (256) 734-7373
Send Mail To: P.O. BOX 830                     
Vinemont, AL 35179
E-Mail: echotacherokeetribeofal@yahoo.com
Web Site: www.echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com
 
Cherokee Tribe Of Northeast Alabama
Stan Long, Chief
113 Parker Drive
Huntsville, AL 35811
(256) 858-0191
E-Mail: jstanleylong@bellsouth.net
Web Site: www.cherokeetribeofnortheastalabama.com
 
Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe of Alabama
James C. Wright, Chief
202 North Main
Kinston, AL 36453
(334) 565-3038 
E-Mail: chiefjames@centurytel.net
Web Site: www.machistribe.com
   
Star Clan of Muscogee Creeks
C. Scott Sanders, Chief
242 County Road 2254
Troy, AL 36079
(334) 399-4928
E-Mail: osahwv@charter.net
 
Cher-O-Creek Intra Tribal Indians
Violet Parker Hamilton, Chief
P.O. Box 717
Dothan, AL 36302
E-Mail: vlt_hamilton@yahoo.com
 
MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
Wilford Taylor, Chief
1080 Red Fox Road
Mount Vernon, AL 36560
(251) 829-5500
E-Mail: chieftaylor@mowachoctaw.com 
Web Site:

*Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Gary Hunt, Chief
3412 Wellford Circle
Birmingham, AL 35226
E-Mail: okema@Live.com 
 
*United Cherokee
Ani-Yun-Wiya Nation
Gina Williamson, Chief
6407 Jarmon Road
Guntersville, AL 35976
(256) 582-2333
E-Mail: ucanonline@bellsouth.net
Web Site: www.ucan-online.org
 

Click Here to View Geographic map of Tribal Locations
 

* Recognized by statutory authority July 10, 2001 
{section 41-9-708 of the Code of Alabama}, with all the rights and privileges as a state recognized tribe afforded therein.
 


Commissioners   
 
Quote
Ma-Chis Lower Creek
Nancy Carnley
PO Box 7
New Brockton, AL 36351-0007
(334) 894-0108
E-Mail: machis@centurytel.net

Governor's Appointee
Lagaylis Harbuck
218 Vanity Park Drive
Jackson, AL 36545
(251) 247-2375
E-Mail: lharbuck@mchsi.com
 
Echota Cherokees
Charlotte S. Hallmark
132 Sunset Trial
Alabaster, AL 35007
(205) 663-5089
E-Mail: Chr0842@aol.com

Cherokee Tribe of Northeast Alabama
Cindy Samples
P.O. BOX 252
Douglas, AL 35964-0252
(256) 593-8102
E-Mail: PrttyMoon@aol.com 

Poarch Band of Creeks

Cher-O-Creek Intra Tribal Indians
Violet P. Hamilton
1315 Northfield Circle
Dothan, AL 36303
(334) 712-1795
E-Mail: vlt_hamilton@yahoo.com
 
Commission's Appointee
Richard D. Greybull
1950 Red Hawk Drive
Enterprise, AL 36330
(334) 347-5546
E-Mail: dakotawacipi@yahoo.com 

Star Clan Of Muscogee Creeks
C. Scott Sanders (1)
180 Debbie Drive
Deatsville, AL 36022
(334) 399-4928
E-Mail: osahwv@charter.net
 
Speaker of House's Appointee
Representative Harry Shiver
Alabama State House
11 South Union Street
Suite 526-D
Montgomery, AL 36130
(334) 242-7745
E-Mail: harryshiver@aol.com 

Lieutenant Governor's Appointee
Senator Zeb Little
Alabama State House
11 South Union Street
Suite 722-A
Montgomery, AL 36130
(334) 242-7855
E-Mail: zeb@zeblittlelawfirm.com
 
MOWA Band Of Choctaws
Wilford Taylor
1080 Red Fox Road
Mount Vernon,  AL 36560
(251) 829-5500
E-Mail: chieftaylor@mowachoctaw.com 

*Piqua Shawnee Tribe
Don Rankin
3412 Wellford Circle
Birmingham, AL 35226-2616
(205) 979-6581
E-Mail: kahkahwee@charter.net
 
*United Cherokee
Ani-Yun-Wiya Nation
Gina Williamson (2)
6407 Jarmon Road
Guntersville, AL 35976
(256) 582-2333
E-Mail: ucanonline@bellsouth.net
 
 
* Recognized by statutory authority July 10, 2001 {section 41-9-708 of the Code of Alabama}, with all the rights and privileges as a state recognized tribe afforded therein.

(1) BOARD CHAIRPERSON
(2) BOARD VICE-CHAIRPERSON

 


Notice any similarities?

As Moma pointed out . . . While the criteria that the Alabama Indian Commission set up to determine eligibility look great on paper, they are not being applied. These groups have been in existence for a few decades, not a few centuries.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:16:24 pm
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 11, 2009, 02:19:23 pm

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.  

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture.  

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong.  

Ok.. I'm getting confused..  


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:33:00 pm

I do think that there are too many fake tribes. But by the time a Tribe has gotten up to the level of being State recognized then as the laws are written, their not Fake.

Dang, I guess we just can't get past defining an NDN by their looks can we?

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.  

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture.  

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong.  

Ok.. I'm getting confused..  




Your not confused, And the law isn't wrong, it is what it is.

What is wrong is that some groups have fallen through the cracks in the floor of the State recognition process and have been recognized when perhaps they shouldn't have been,  just the same way that some groups have fallen through the cracks in the BIA's recognition process and have not been recognized when they should have been.

What is happening here is just the opposite of what the Task force is doing. The Task Force tosses all of the apples into the Bad apple group and the State recognition process tosses them all into the good apple barrel.

There has to be a middle ground whereby the right thing is done on both sides.

Do you not see that there should be a middle ground? that's not a system based on extremism ism from either side?


Edit:
I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.

Yes, that's all I'm saying. And I'm only saying it for the sake of discussion. not based on emotions. I can debate any subject from any side with out letting my emotions get in the way.
(I mean that I can do it with respect for other person's differing opinion).

By pointing out what the law is, we can progress to , (perhaps) an agreement of what should be changed. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 11, 2009, 02:41:35 pm
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?


Absolutely! These people, or their friends, recognized themselves as legitimate. State Recognition is not an impartial procedure. I'm not picking on Alabama. Georgia and Tennessee are doing the same thing.

The state officials involved . . . Yeah, it is all about the money. Money and favors. Vying for federal dollars and tourism dollars.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 02:46:55 pm
Notice any similarities?

For the sake of discussion, please explain these similarities.
Do you mean that the ACIA has some people that are members of the State Tribes?


Absolutely! These people, or their friends, recognized themselves as legitimate. State Recognition is not an impartial procedure. I'm not picking on Alabama. Georgia and Tennessee are doing the same thing. The state officials involved . . . Yeah, it is all about the money. Money and favors. Vying for federal dollars and tourism dollars.


OK,,, I understand what your saying. This sort of thing has been going on in law and governments for as long as there have been laws and governments hasn't it?


 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 11, 2009, 03:06:21 pm

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY. 

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture. 

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong. 

Ok.. I'm getting confused.. 




Your not confused, And the law isn't wrong, it is what it is.

 


Edit:
I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.



By pointing out what the law is, we can progress to , (perhaps) an agreement of what should be changed. 


Ok..  you say the law isn't wrong, then why are you wanting to change it?  And not about people falling through cracks here.. I'm talking strictly in regards to the LAW defining who is and who isn't a tribe.  The law is wrong if it is defining people as this or that and they are not. 

How can we possibly agree on what should be changed if we cannot even agree that the law is wrong ?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: educatedindian on November 11, 2009, 03:57:38 pm

Look, I'll give you an example of what I feel is a fake tribe. Here in Fla. there is or perhaps was (their web site is gone now) a group using the Cherokee name. Their web site had a side bar of links such as Home, Chiefs, Tribal land, Housing authority, Tribal Police, enrollment and what ever. When I looked at the page about their Police dept. there were photos of about 6 of them, they had a chief of police and the rest were deputies. 4 of them had the same last name.  Well now I click on the tribal land page and found an address. So now I google map the address and found that their "Tribal Land" was one single house in a typical inter city  neighborhood. A search of the property tax rolls show that the tribal chief (who is also the police chief) was the legal owner not the tribe. Then on the enrollment page I find a statement that said that you don't have to have one drop of NDN blood. Now there was no fee to submit an application but it did say that under their tribal law that there would be from time to time an assessment fee.  So not only do I think that this bunch are fake, but now they are impersonating police officers too.

....(like that new bunch in Ala. that just bought a golf course and want to open a casino)  and like I said before, Altho it's a good place to start,  investigated doesn't mean just a web search. like I did with the "The cherokee national golf and country club tribe"  I would welcome an investigation by their State's Attorney Gen. 

Could you start new threads on these groups, and name them, describing all you found?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 04:33:14 pm


Could you start new threads on these groups, and name them, describing all you found?

There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Moma_porcupine on November 11, 2009, 04:50:17 pm
Paul
Quote
@Moma_porcupine, et al
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm debating it.

What you are doing is ignoring every substantive issue that gets pointed out to you , and muddying the water with endless hairspliting of side issues that aren't actually releveant.  You call it debating, I call it intentionally obfiscating what is obvious with a lot of words.

You just did this for the 100th time, when after arguing through several posts that tribes which have State recognition are valid because it is the law, you ignored the evidence that some States don't even follow their own laws, and grant recognition to groups which don't even meet their own definition of a tribe ,  and instead you responded only the personal part of my post that said you were ignoring the actual issues.
   
Then you occaisionally make a disclaimer or do double speak that you don't really necessarialy even believe your own arguements. In the context of all your other actions, this disclaimer seems totally insincere, and my own take on it is, you must know your stance and motivation on these issues is so lacking in integrity, you don't even want to take responsibility for it by admitting your real position.

Paul
Quote
The Task Force tosses all of the apples into the Bad apple group and the State recognition process tosses them all into the good apple barrel.

There has to be a middle ground whereby the right thing is done on both sides.

Do you not see that there should be a middle ground?
I do see there is a middle ground when it comes to what sort of individual relationship a descendent has or creates with the tribe they descend from.

I don't see that there should be a "middle ground"  AKA gray area when it comes to the definition of what is a tribe - much as people like yourself wish there was. The definition of what is a tribe / First Nation, needs to be very clear and any group being recognized as a tribe / First Nation should rightly be required to  prove it fits within this definition . Otherwise the perception there might be some monetary rewards ( AKA GREED ) encourages hoards of people like yourself to try and force their way through every small loop hole.

But I am curious what part of the federal definition of "tribe" you think ought to be altered into a middle ground to create a gray area....? And why...? 

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 05:18:10 pm

Ok..  you say the law isn't wrong, then why are you wanting to change it?  And not about people falling through cracks here.. I'm talking strictly in regards to the LAW defining who is and who isn't a tribe.  The law is wrong if it is defining people as this or that and they are not. 

How can we possibly agree on what should be changed if we cannot even agree that the law is wrong ?

You have made a fine point here. In this regard you have changed my mind.
(see I'm not inflexible, just hard headed).

The progression of the laws that have led up to what it is at this point are not so black and white. That's why there are so many lawyers.  It is very difficult to pick out any one law that would change the entire picture. It goes back to treaty law, then to Congress giving themselves the authority to legislate the removal of articles in those treaties. Because there is nothing in treaty law preventing States from doing so. From there it progressed to recognizing States authority to grant Tribal recognition. Then in as much as tribes had State Recognition, Congress took it a step further by legislating some benefits for these tribes. That in and of it's self legitimizes these tribes. (in a legal stance).   


I think that the crux of this debate is in how States do what they do. Fixing that may be the thing that needs to be changed.


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 05:47:13 pm

You just did this for the 100th time, when after arguing through several posts that tribes which have State recognition are valid because it is the law, you ignored the evidence that some States don't even follow their own laws, and grant recognition to groups which don't even meet their own definition of a tribe ,  

evidence???
Oh you don't mean that just because you gave me your opinion about only one Tribe that this is to be accepted as evidence do you?

Perhaps you should present your evidence about this one Tribe to the 40+ Attorneys General of the States that recognize Tribes within their States. I'm sure they will reverse their positions. Get real, you opinion won't mean any more to them than mine does to you.

Edited to add a reply to this:
"But I am curious what part of the federal definition of "tribe" you think ought to be altered into a middle ground to create a gray area....? And why...?
"


Now why would any one want to change something to create a gray area?
I don't think that this what you mean.
But would defining a Tribe any differently change the sovereignty of that tribe as to who they can enroll? Should the Fed gov. dictate to all tribes what BQ they must accept?

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 07:24:25 pm
Quote
Perhaps you should present your evidence about this one Tribe to the 40+ Attorneys General of the States that recognize Tribes within their States. I'm sure they will reverse their positions. Get real, you opinion won't mean any more to them than mine does to you.


Paul123 your right and we know the reason why for most of them.

And you said it yourself, "Its all about the money honey"
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 11, 2009, 07:33:19 pm
Quote
There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.

That was one of the more offensive groups that misrepresent Cherokees.  But even if these bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes did somewhat try to represent authentic Cherokee Culture, ( For example, if some of their members went to Oklahoma and North Carolina, and learned things the right way......that wouldn't change the fact that they ARE STILL BOGUS, meaning they are not Cherokee Tribes, and for the most part, have so called members that ARE NOT of Cherokee Heritage.  Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges no matter how you look at it. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 08:27:25 pm
Quote
There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.

That was one of the more offensive groups that misrepresent Cherokees.  But even if these bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes did somewhat try to represent authentic Cherokee Culture, ( For example, if some of their members went to Oklahoma and North Carolina, and learned things the right way......that wouldn't change the fact that they ARE STILL BOGUS, meaning they are not Cherokee Tribes, and for the most part, have so called members that ARE NOT of Cherokee Heritage.  Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges no matter how you look at it. 

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course. 
(I know that the won't, but what if)?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 11, 2009, 08:49:43 pm

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course.  
(I know that the won't, but what if)?

What?  LOL  OMG .. sorry..  but even I can see this as stupid.  no offense Paul, but ..  ??  

So.. if I stole parts of traditions from here and there, then made up some name perhaps the Apollo's..  Or maybe the Chrysler's..  and then claimed to be an ndn tribe with all my members..   what??   Even if I gave it a stolen tribal name it would still be BOGUS.  Even if I were able to con the state through loop holes to recognize my 'tribe' it would still be BOGUS...  

OK.. sorry..  ok.. I think you mean if they were learned in the right ways.. and wanted to be a recognized tribe.. sorry.. misunderstood..   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 11, 2009, 09:59:03 pm
. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.


 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

So should we only support the laws that we like and disregard the rest?


 Segregation used to be a law on the books, but was it right?

 I have already pointed out, that like Blackwolf I support state tribes who are really legitimate tribes and for whatever reason are not federally recognized.

 In fact I have pointed out numerous examples of tribes and bands that fall under those circumstances, including ones in my area.

 However what I see you do is supporting any group of people saying they are NDN and getting recognized as a tribe as long as the state gives them recognition. Then you cite the law is the law, and that makes it valid.

 If money is pointed out, and how these bogus tribes might be getting money earmarked for real NDN's, you point out that tribe A get's X amount of funding, and so that to you makes things okay.

 You fail to look at the bigger picture that this much smaller amount of money could have went to a family just barely eating enough, or hardly at all; even that this could have been broken down and given to a couple families. Heck it could have even been attached to some program for real NDN people that was just barely squeeking through due to budget cuts by the Federal government. I don't know if you realize this this, and you probably don't; NDN programs and funding is nearly always the first thing to get slashed when the state of feds are making budget cuts.

  You fail to realize all of this, and try to say those of us in opposition to it are doing so based on skin color, BQ, or culture. Now I will concede that I have mentioned culture, skin color, and BQ when it was pertinent, but that was not the true basis of my argument. It was just one aspect of it.

 On the contrary you have had conversations with me in which I let you know that I did not believe in such things as the definition of NDN, and so I will not accept that argument from you.

 The argument most here are presenting with you is not about the skin color of somebody, their BQ, or their degree of culture. This is despite it has been pointed out that these fake tribes have NONE of it, and what they do have, you can tell from their websites that they are relying on what is put out by real tribes on their websites.

In fact there are a number of once "state recognized" tribes on the east coast that have members that look almost totally black or white, and have very little of their culture or language retained amongst their people. However, unlike the vast majority of these tribe seeking or gaining state recognition, these once state recognized tribes are in fact known and proven historic tribes. They are not a group of people claiming that their ggggggggg grandmother came from Dragging Canoe's people, and therefore joining up with others with a similar story and thinking they can "form a tribe" based on it.

 I live around and have friends that are members of tribes and bands that are not recognized by the government, or at least totally. One of them is a full blood, and is one of two people left in the world who can speak his language. It insults me that you would try to compare people with very very questionable claims to being NDN to people like that. I for one know all about unrecognized tribes.... I live near more then one.
 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 10:23:37 pm

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course.  
(I know that the won't, but what if)?

What?  LOL  OMG .. sorry..  but even I can see this as stupid.  no offense Paul, but ..  ??  

So.. if I stole parts of traditions from here and there, then made up some name perhaps the Apollo's..  Or maybe the Chrysler's..  and then claimed to be an ndn tribe with all my members..   what??   Even if I gave it a stolen tribal name it would still be BOGUS.  Even if I were able to con the state through loop holes to recognize my 'tribe' it would still be BOGUS...  

OK.. sorry..  ok.. I think you mean if they were learned in the right ways.. and wanted to be a recognized tribe.. sorry.. misunderstood..   

Thanks for reading what I meant, instead of what I said. I should have said that all different. I'm so sorry. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 11, 2009, 11:01:59 pm
Because it is a perfect example of frauds trying to get state recognition in order to find loop holes in  getting recognized falsely as NDN, and then take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children by leaching off of funding earmarked for NDN people.

Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

 That is exactly what it does.

 I know cases of Lakota women on Pine Ridge with over 5 children getting what amounts to $80 a month from the federal government. This is in an area where there are no jobs.

 I did read your arguement about funding, and felt it was rather pompous of you.

Why should somebody who little to no proof of being NDN get one red cent, when real NDN people are in such dire conditions?

 Are you so self absorbed and heartless in your claim to be seen as NDN, and those like you being seeing as NDN that you would put your "identity" over feeding children?

Paul, if you had the slightest idea of the realities of life in NDN Country, you would now feel full of shame for making such a disgusting display. You would now want to dedicate your pitiful life to making amends for the pain you've just strewn across the Internet. To laugh at the misfortune of women and children living in poverty... I am appalled at your behaviour. You shame your relatives.

It is obvious you have no familial or emotional/relational connection to any NDN community aside from the one that exists in your fantasies. No wonder you like the nons who play dress-up on the weekends, calling themselves "chiefs" and "shamans".

People here initially cut you a lot of slack due to your ignorance. But you have proven to be selfish and obstinate.

People have tried to educate you. They have been patient and kind. You ignore their words and look for loopholes and diversions. You value your own quest for "identity" over the well-being of NDN peoples, NDN communities, NDN cultures. You insult those who try to fight for these things.  You came looking for acceptance, but refuse to see how your words and actions offend the very people you seem to think should welcome you with open arms.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 11, 2009, 11:48:08 pm
You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits? Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.
Tell me another one. Any US citizen with 5 kids would qualify for more that 80 bucks a month in food stamps. for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: LittleOldMan on November 12, 2009, 12:01:54 am
Let's take a look at a few facts and stuff.  Fact. All Indians have and continue to get the short end of the stick from the Feds.  Fact.  Poverty is rampant in a lot if not all Indian communities.  Fact.  Poverty is also rampant in a lot of Hispanic, white, and Black communities.  Those of us who care make a difference where we can.  From what I can gleam BQ was historically never much of a factor in the minds of some Indian Tribes.  The Katoowah were organized in a Baptist Church by a White northern minister.  See the history of the Katoowah.  Fact.  There are state tribes that were in existence decades before the current Task force crusade.  Why were the Federal Tribes silent for so long?  Fact. Money must enter into the equation in some form.  Fact.  The Congress has made available to Federal Tribes as well as State Tribes some monies.  Here I am unclear on something If a State Tribes accesses some of this available money does this fact decrease the amount that a Federal Tribe can access? As on a first come first served basis.  Or are funds allocated in some other manner?  Fact.  It is in the best interest of the State that it's recognized Tribes receive Federal monies as it increases monies for it's States citizens.  No matter how much we decry the corruption of culture and ceremony by these wannabes The Federal tribes owe it to themselves to find some accommodation for those people of Indian descent who would like to join them culturally in a good way who for what ever reason can not  qualify for Tribal citizenship.  To do so increases the people on their side to not do so increases the fraudulent, wannabes,  and the exploiters.  The CNO has begun this I believe with it's satellite groups.  Would it not be in the best interest of the Federal Tribes to be in control of these people in order to make sure that their culture remains correct?  With respect offered "LittleOldMan"  
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 12, 2009, 12:34:34 am
You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits? Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.
Tell me another one. Any US citizen with 5 kids would qualify for more that 80 bucks a month in food stamps. for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

 



Quote
You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits?

Would you like to try again???


pay special attention to the per capita income and conditions




1.) According to ‘Red Cloud Indian School’ (Pine Ridge Indian Reservation Demographics, 2009);

• 80% of residents are unemployed (versus 10% of the rest of the country)
• 49% of the residents live below the Federal poverty level (61% under the age of 18),
• Per Capita income in Shannon County is $6,286,
• The Infant Mortality rate is 5X higher than the national average,
• Native American amputation rates due to diabetes is 3 to 4X higher than the national average
• Death rate due to diabetes is 3X higher than the national average
• Other than Haiti, Life Expectancy on the Pine Ridge is the lowest in the Western Hemisphere;
-Men 48 years,
-Women, 52 years



Quote
Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.

 Be specific here in exactly what so called "state tribes" you are mentioning here. I want specific information from you now on whom you are speaking of.

 I also want sources on  things they face such as poverty, disease, infant mortality, per capita income; all in comparison to the so NONS in their state.

 I especially want to know how racism plays into all of this.

Quote
for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

 On top of you sounding very white in this statement, I would also like sources that let the readers here know just exactly how much illegal aliens are raking in.

 Honestly, I am starting to think by this statement that you are here wanting NONs to cash in on native benefits. What I mean by this is the large number of people on the right wing who do not believe in sovereignty, and I have read some wanting to find an ancestor on the dawes so they can cash in on money they feel NDN's should not get.

 This is usually along with statements such as " get over it," and " it's all in the past, so get over it" etc etc.


Quote
If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

 This seems close to a racial tirade on your part when you yet again mention illegal aliens.

 Also since your brought up the topic of how the tribe manage their money. Please explain to me how things such as benefits, and per cap work within NDN tribes within federal laws and guidelines on such topics.

 Also please explain to me how things such as land size, infrastructure, population statistics etc come into play when you make an attempt at answering me.

 Well, if you dare try to answer this.

  I actually know the answers to this, and do very well. I just want to show you how much you DON'T KNOW, and maybe have you do some homework on the topic.


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 12, 2009, 12:45:08 am
Paul,

 Do you have a problem with Illegal Aliens collecting money from the federal government such as welfare and if so..why?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Superdog on November 12, 2009, 12:58:48 am
You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits? Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.
Tell me another one. Any US citizen with 5 kids would qualify for more that 80 bucks a month in food stamps. for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

 

Sorry if you don't believe it.  I think that's probably the truest statement about the state of things.  Most people outside of it don't believe it could really be that bad....not in the US right....but unfortunately it's true and you should really think about investigating that further before you call it BS.  Not all tribes have it that bad...but there are definitely some areas of Indian Country that just as described (and you call BS).  We're talkin' IHS healthcare that only gets enough funding to provide care for 6-8 months out of the year, houses with no running water/indoor plumbing and the list goes on and on, one room homes with no heat (except for the iron stove that serves as heat and cooking as long as you can find wood).  Don't disparage it unless you've lived it or at least taken the time to see with your own eyes.  I don't think you're a slime....just severely got your head in the sand.

Take it from someone who's been through it.  It's not the fault of the people living there or of corrupt policies.  It's the fault of agreements with a Federal Government that promised to provide "basic living essentials and needs" forever in exchange for various concessions (land...no more war, etc) and then State Governments that have, over time, chipped away at those provisions (which were lacking in the first place).  Your own arguments in favor of State Governmental definitions of something that they inherently have no interest in also support their policies that have (intentionally or not) taken away from the Federal Governments promises of basic needs.  Needs rendered to replace the loss of subsistence living (which in some areas is virtually impossible...not enough land, too much pollution) and traditional way of life in those communities.

It's not like that across the board, but the insistence that it's not like that anywhere is foolish.  

Superdog
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 12, 2009, 01:03:03 am
Paul,

By "illegal aliens" do you perhaps mean white people from Europe who have overstayed their tourist visas?  Or might you mean people who are Indigenous to this continent but happen to have been born on the other side of the US government's borders?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 12, 2009, 01:20:00 am
Paul123, your bringing up a controversial topic that has ABSOUTLY NOTHING to do with this thread. ( In reference to your comments about illegal immigrants.)

Since you can't win your argument or justify them ANY OTHER WAY, your trying to use the issue of Illigeal immigrants as a diversion. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 12, 2009, 01:36:40 am

I read this about 2 years ago and I think everyone would benefit from this. It's a long essay, about 7-8 chapters and I posted the links to the rest of the chapters. I believe it applies here and is very well researched. It's about the lenghts and deceptions of what one group tried to do to gain state recognition, then federal recognition.

http://threeoaks-onthewingsofeagles.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-04-28T00%3A19%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=7


http://threeoaks-onthewingsofeagles.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-05-19T07%3A11%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=7


 
Saturday, April 26, 2008

A Study Of How Congress Is Manipulated: Chapter 1

I’ve provided numerous commentaries about why and how newly made “tribes” seek federal or state recognition. This is the first of a series that will address a U.S. Senate and a House bill that has been introduced to provide federal recognition to an organization in Florida that is called the “Muscogee Nation of Florida“.

Both S. 514 and H.R. 2028, “To extend Federal recognition to the Muscogee Nation of Florida“, contain misinformation and is an attempt by this group to escape the scrutiny required to determine if it is actually a tribe or not. Should the Senate pass S. 514, and the House pass the comparable H.R. 2028 (which contains the same misinformation), a great disservice and carriage of injustice will be made against legitimate tribes and American Indians.

In order to address the misinformation given in both S. 514 and H.R. 2028, comments will be made in certain paragraphs of the bills so that both the Senate and House can be aware of the deceit that is being presented to them. Both bills are identical. The sponsors and co-sponsors of these bills are most likely unaware of the misrepresentations included in the bills, and merely accepted the information given to them by the “Muscogee Nation of Florida“ in good faith. However, this does not negate the potential damage that these bills can cause.

Members of Congress who have accepted the claims of this organization, apparently without question or raise of an eyebrow include: Rep. Allen Boyd (D-FL) Sponsor H.R. 2028; Rep. Jeff Miller (R-FL) Co-sponsor H.R. 2028; Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) Sponsor S. 514; Senator Mel Martinez (R-FL) Co-sponsor S. 514.

Members of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, the “Indian” Committee without Indian members since Senator Campbell left the Senate, also have accepted testimony from the Muscogee Nation of Florida without question. (Hearing: On the process of federal recognition of Indian Tribes September 19, 2007).

The national media and Florida governmental entities have also fallen prey to the “Muscogee Nation of Florida“, rewriting and promoting a false revisionist history of American Indians in Florida. Perhaps the worst scenario includes the hundreds of individuals who have joined the organization under the belief that it’s claims are true.

Extensive documentation, plus dozens of images of historical documents and photographs, have been collected that disprove the Muscogee Nation of Florida claims made in the bills. Because of the limitations of space, only examples of the complete documentation will be provided in the comments. However, these examples will be more than enough to show the validity of my position.

Having filed their own petition and documentation for federal recognition in 1978, perhaps most telling of the true nature of the Muscogee Nation of Florida (formerly as the Eastern Creek Nation) is that some of the leaders and individuals involved in this organization were also involved with other groups claiming to be a Creek Indian tribe and that were petitioning the BIA for recognition during the same general period. In addition, many claims in the different petitions were similar. The other petitioning organizations were:

Creeks East of the Mississippi
Letter of Intent to Petition, Petitioner #010, 1972.02.21.
Receipt of Letter of Intent, Federal Register Notice, 1979.01.02, 44 FR 116-117.
Final Determination, Federal Register Notice, 1982.04.06, 47 FR 14783.
Not Acknowledged

Lower Muscogee Creek Tribe East of Mississippi
Letter of Intent to Petition, Petitioner #008, 1972.02.02.
Receipt of Letter of Intent, Federal Register Notice, 1979.01.02, 44 FR 116-117.
Final Determination, Federal Register Notice, 1981.10.21, 46 FR 5
Not Acknowledged

MaChis Lower Alabama Creek Indian Tribe
Letter of Intent to Petition, Petitioner #087, 1983.06.10.
Receipt of Letter of Intent, Federal Register Notice, 1983.08.18, 48 FR 37528
Final Determination, Federal Register Notice, 1988.06.23, 53 FR 23694.
Not Acknowledged

It should be noted that Walton County, Florida, played an important role in the claims of the above different organizations. For example, 26 percent of the MaChis Lower Alabama Creek Tribe was listed as living in Walton County. Walton County also plays a major role in the current Muscogee Nation’s claims.

It’s undeniable that there are residents and families in Florida that might be of Creek descent. However, a close study of Muscogee Nation of Florida will show that while it might have an enrollment of a few individuals with actual Creek ancestry to various extents, the organization is also comprised of individuals who have been solicited from disperse locations and who cannot document either a Creek genealogy or historical family ties with the group. An unbiased research will also show that there is no independent historical documentation or study that indicates the Muscogee Nation of Florida existed at all, in any form, before the 1950’s.

The Ward family of Bruce and surrounding Walton County is the primary nucleus of many claims made by the Muscogee Nation of Florida. Ward family records and documents were also included in the original attempt by the Lower Muskogee Creek Tribe - East of the Mississippi, Inc., which the Muscogee Nation of Florida (as the Eastern Creek Nation) was a part of. The Ward family records and documents submitted and showing them to be Creek Indians have since been shown by the foremost Ward family genealogist and researcher, Jerry Merritt of Pensacola, to be recent 1950’s forgeries. The claims that Elizabeth Ward, wife of William B. Ward ( father of William Joseph Ward in Walton County - where the Ward Indian ancestry stories take place) was Creek Indian have also been discounted as untrue.

Fabricated genealogies are common in groups claiming to be American Indian. Unfortunately, the fabricated Ward documents have found their place in Florida record collections beginning in 1978 and continue to mislead Ward family researchers into believing that the family was Creek Indian. These same documents have been used by local Florida organizations to present a false history of their area.

The Muscogee Nation of Florida first gained the attention of a good acquaintance and I in Arkansas early in 2006. This was during efforts to ensure that legitimate American Indians were given the opportunity to participate in American Indian workshops and presentations given by the Arkansas Arts Council, National Parks, State parks, and public schools within Arkansas.

At that time, it was discovered that enrolled American Indians were completely disfranchised from these activities. Every single identified workshop or presentation was being conducted by individuals who had no legitimate tribal connection and were only self-identified as being American Indian. This activity included the selling of arts and crafts in violation of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990, Public Law 101-644.

One of the individuals involved, Valerie Lynn Goetz of Arkansas, is a member of the Muscogee Nation of Florida. She claimed that the Muscogee Nation of Florida was a state recognized tribe. However, she was extremely unknowledgeable about the history of the group, and was still in the process of researching her own genealogy on internet genealogy boards. Ms. Goetz was very active in presenting American Indian craft workshops in both National and State Parks in Arkansas and Missouri, and is promoted as an American Indian artisan by the Arkansas Arts Council. Besides selling her crafts in Arkansas and Missouri under the guise of being American Indian, her crafts are also being sold by the Pensacola Historical Society, Inc. in Florida as being American Indian made. (Ms. Goetz, under her maiden name of Hanks, had applied as Eastern Creek for the 1971 Creek land claim awards census. She and all other family members were rejected.)

As a result of our inquiries to the Florida Attorney General’s Office, the Florida Governors Office, the Florida State Legislature Office, and the Governor’s Commission on Indian Affairs, we learned that the Muscogee Nation of Florida was not recognized by the state as a tribe - as widely claimed. The synopsis of this discovery is included as a comment under the state recognition claim made in the Senate and House bills.

A spokesperson of the federally recognized Miccosukee Tribe of Indians in Florida told me that she had never heard of the Muscogee Nation of Florida.

The comments that will be made in following posts are directed to certain paragraphs of S.514 and H.R. 2028 are introductory comments only. They are the result of a preliminary look at the claims made in the bills, which are easily identified as misleading by those who make even the smallest effort to research the organization past the story it promotes. These comments provide a stepping stone for my readers and those who are involved with the approval and passage of these bills to use for further investigation before they make a final determination whether or not the Muscogee Nation of Florida should be recognized as a legitimate historical tribe.

As with all my posts, it will be up to the reader to make up their own decisions concerning the veracity of my comments and opinions.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 12, 2009, 01:49:20 am
Thank you Diana.  This is really good information.  It just goes to show the levels of lies, decit, and deception some of these groups will resort to.  It also shows how ignorant the general public is when it comes to Indian issues. 


Also, as far as I know, Florida refrains from recognizing Indian Tribes.

Quote
In Florida, the Governor's Council on Indian Affairs in 1988 adopted a policy which recommends that state officials refrain from recognizing any group not first acknowledged by the federal government.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 12, 2009, 02:23:00 am
You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits? Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.
Tell me another one. Any US citizen with 5 kids would qualify for more that 80 bucks a month in food stamps. for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

 

What?  OMG!!  Seriously, I'm reading this?  What, did you crawl out of..  ? 

Let me tell a story, of my brother.  He is deceased.  He was a good man.  He got involved with some sort of publications, or something, I don't know exactly what it was, but he ended up visiting some folks at Pine Ridge.  He found multiple families living in some small shacks with no heat, water or electricity and no money for food. 

The 'poverty' you speak of is a white mans world poverty.  I'm telling you, there is a difference between the white American world poverty, and the poverty found on some of these rez's like Pine Ridge.

Maybe you don't know this.  But instead of flocking off someone's statement and calling it BS maybe you should ask first, how, and why this could be?  For you to think the poverty you see in the American White World is the only type of poverty that exists in America is a sign that you do not know enough, but think that you do.

I don't have anything more to say..
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 12, 2009, 03:49:26 am
Quote
I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

Paul, I have to say that your ignorance and arrogance is appalling and inexcusable.  Have you ever even been to an Indian Reservation or Indian community in the United States and seen it your self?  Most Tribes are not rolling in Casino Money.  Did you know the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation is the poorest place in the United States.  You say your Indian, but nothing you have said so far seems to support any real Indian issue.  You come off as being more Anti Indian then anything else. The Pine Ridge Reservation has an unemployment rate of over 80 percent,  Many of the families have no electricity, telephone, running water, or sewer. Many families use wood stoves to heat their homes.  The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and in the low 50s for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average.  To blame this on piss poor management is beyond words.

Paul, are you sure your Indian?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 12, 2009, 04:42:27 am
I’m going to try and get back on track and try to turn back to the topic of the thread.  “Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters”.  A few people have made the analogy of people of Irish descent in America starting their own New Ireland 150 years later. 

I have a more accurate analogy then that.  It would be more like lets say 50 people claiming Italian descent wanting to start a New Italy in New York City in the year 2009.  But in this analogy, 45 of the people are actually of Greek and Russian ancestry, with only 5 actually having Italian blood.  Because you see back then, it wasn’t cool to be Greeks and Russians.  Their Russian and Greek Grandmas weren’t cool enough for them, so they told everyone that their Grandmas were Italian Princesses. 

Of the 5 that do have Italian blood, their ancestors, CHOOSE to leave Italy on their own accord.  Italians were persecuted  at the time in Europe and in the United States, so they thought it would be better to “just blend in” to the surrounding population in New York.  They just told everyone that they were “Native Americans” like everyone else.

Now, If I was an Italian from Italy that was proud of who I was.  I would probably refer to all of the 50 people as Wannabee Italians.  As far as the 45 people of non Italian blood, well, they’re not of Italian heritage anyways, so their just always going to be Wananbees to me. I also never really appreciated these people trying to pass off St. Patrick’s Day as an Italian Holiday.   

And of the 5 or 6 that actually do have Italian ancestors.  Well, they abandoned their people.  Their ancestors did their best not to be Italian.  So you know what.  As far as I’m concerned, their ancestors, got what they wanted in the end.  Because their descendants ARE NOT Italians anymore.   As far as I’m concerned, they are all just a bunch of Wannabee Italians. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 12, 2009, 04:44:06 am
Helllooooo from the reservation here, Standing Rock not Pine Ridge but still
we have 70% unempolyment here and YES people live off 80 dollar a month
and they get commodities............which will not last out the moth, plus due
to the housing shortage many family live in one house. I can't believe people
call this bullshit. they need to come out here to the reservations and see for
their self.  You will understand very quickly that we are native with our dark
skin, dark hair and very very poor.
blackwolf good words
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 12, 2009, 06:21:11 am
Quote
Thank you Diana.  This is really good information.  It just goes to show the levels of lies, decit, and deception some of these groups will resort to.  It also shows how ignorant the general public is when it comes to Indian issues

Thanks Blackwolf, I know it's a long read, but worth it, actually the whole blog has some very good info. I suggest reading it in it's entirety.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 12, 2009, 12:20:36 pm
Oh crap,,,
After reading all of your posts, I can see that the statement about the lady living on 80 bucks was not just a case of yanking my chain. No,,, I had no idea that something like that could be true. It seems so far fetched that I couldn't believe it. It had to be BS. That couldn't be true.




Of course I will never find words to express my embarrassment, so I won't say any more than,,,












I'm so sorry.   



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 12, 2009, 12:58:39 pm
Paul have you ever been to Pine Ridge or the other Lakota/Dakota reservations?
I live on my reservation life is hard here being Native is hard. We have a lot
of death here, in fact this week end five more funerals, we still have babies
who do not make it their first year. Many family have no food or for that
matter beds to sleep on. We wonder why people want to be like us.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 12, 2009, 02:58:39 pm
Good interview and great pictures. My bold.


http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/behind-22/

October 20, 2009, 12:00 am

Behind the Scenes: Still Wounded

By JAMES ESTRIN

Correction Appended | Aaron Huey
arrived on the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota at the start of a
self-assigned photographic road trip to document poverty in America.

The poverty he found on the reservation stopped him cold.

“It was emotionally devastating,” Mr. Huey said. “I‘d call my wife late at night crying.”


Overwhelmed by the poverty — and at the same time by scenes of
people trying to maintain the Lakota way of life — Mr. Huey abandoned
the rest of his nationwide project to focus on Pine Ridge. Five years
later, he’s still photographing on the reservation, which includes the
Wounded Knee battlefield.

Mr. Huey, 33, is a photographer for Smithsonian, National Geographic
Adventure and National Geographic Traveler. He also freelances for The
New Yorker and Geo. In 2007, he photographed in Afghanistan for The
Times.

I interviewed him by telephone and e-mail.Q.What were you first impressions of Pine Ridge?

A.I stayed with families in the most violent town on the reservation, a place called Manderson; often referred to as “Murdertown” by locals. I could have never imagined the living conditions that I saw. I knew the statistics about poverty, but the living conditions went far beyond poverty to even deeper, more dysfunctional problems. Black mold all over the walls of childrens’ rooms. Kids eating off the floors. Infants watching violent films on TV all night.

One of my other first impressions was people showing me their scars — self inflicted scars from their gang initiations. A knife heated on a burner until it’s red hot is then pressed on the skin, usually in stripes on the upper arm, creating terrible burns.

Q.Why did you end up going back?

A.I went back because the families invited me back, and because I was so floored by what I had seen that I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Now, I go back because they are family, and because I haven’t found the end of the story. It seems to get more confusing each time I return. I am not getting closer to a conclusion. It just is what it is. My photos are a witness, not a solution. They are the dark and the light and every struggle between.

Q.What was your approach and working methods there?

A.I started by not shooting many photos. I hung out, and I always asked the young kids who took me in to tell me what they thought the world needed to know about them. In my first interactions, I let them guide the story. They needed to feel like someone cared about them. They needed to be heard. So I listened. I spent a lot of time not working. I watched movies with them, ate meals with them. Sometimes I’d beat myself up about not shooting enough photos. My eyes would get tired and I’d stop “seeing” photos. But I believe that it was all for the best. Over time, it has helped me go much deeper.

Q.Who are the Lakota?

A.Answering the question, “Who are the Lakota,” is very difficult. In many ways, I feel like it is not my question to answer. The Lakota are a people who have been wronged many times over. Coming from the dominant society and attempting to define them is a guaranteed failure for a white journalist. I have no right to define them.

Q.Who were the first people you met? And how did that result in the early gang work?

A.The first people I met were gang kids and a few stand-offish officials in the tribal office. What lead me down the darker, more gang-oriented path initially was that they wanted to talk and others did not. They had a story they wanted to tell me. They didn’t care that I didn’t know much about the Lakota. With others I felt a huge wall — “Another white man come to do a story on us” — and they were right. I wasn’t well armed with a lot of knowledge about the situation. A lot of “wasi’chu” come through to do quick stories on the natives. But in the darkest corners, I was accepted. And they told me much of what I needed to know. In the youth, I found a big part of my story — a new generation desperate to be warriors again.

Q.What are you trying to photograph now?

A.After I spent several trips with these gang kids and did my first major assignments on them, I realized that it was all a bit superficial. Magazines were really into the gang thing. It was an easy story for them to digest and it was a way to make an old story new and relevant. But the bigger picture doesn’t really make a good story. It’s long and murky and loaded with pain. There are no easy outs. Deconstructing hundreds of years of oppression to understand why we now see these statistics just isn’t catchy enough for the mainstream press. But I couldn’t stop just because the magazines couldn’t handle it. I wasn’t sure where it would all lead, but I knew I couldn’t stop.

Q.Tell me a little bit more about the traditional Lakotas.

A.I think finding more “traditionals” is a natural direction after all these years of darkness. In many ways, it’s the harder part of the story. I’m not sure if it all needs to be wrapped up that way, to balance the dark and the light. It isn’t a nice, neat little package. But I have to see what is there. For now that is my reason for returning. I want to find the light in this darkness.

The horse culture, sweat lodges, sun dances and attempts at preserving the language are all incredibly positive influences and steer the youth away from the false warrior model of gangster violence. The youth need heroes like Crazy Horse and Black Elk, not Tupac and Biggie.

 Q.How about the children?

A.I have been watching several children in a dozen families grow up over the past five years. This is one of the hardest parts for me. When I see their father or mother coming home drunk every day, I know what the future holds for them and it hurts me.

I remember calling home to my wife crying because I had just held a beautiful 3-year-old girl on my knee. She hugged me and called me uncle, and I love her so much. But I know that it is only a matter of time until she is broken. Soon she will be drinking, and pregnant, and abused, and dying. Right now she is still perfect, but no one can last in an environment like that.

That’s the part I hate. Knowing that there is nothing I can do to change it. And there are so many things I want to change. But it seems the story is already written. Even with a strong traditional family, many of the youth are sinking. Without it, they are totally lost.

I keep looking for the light in the story because I want to believe there is a way out. Maybe if I find it, I can help some of the kids I know move that direction. I know for sure that change has to come from within the reservation. It cannot be imported. I cannot run away with these children. Someone in their own town has to lead them, preferably someone from within their own home.

Q.Is there anything that the rest of the country should know about what you saw?

A.One very important thing to know is that there are a small handful of very positive people and places on Pine Ridge and that they are making a difference. Red Cloud Indian School is a leader among these positive forces, with 13 Gates scholarship recipients graduating from its school in only two years. As one of the most successful schools in the nation, they have completely flipped the paradigm on its head.

As for the problem and what people need to know about it, I’m not sure there is much to do. The Lakota, like most tribes, are self governed. Handouts aren’t the answer. Church groups painting over the gang signs on houses every few summers is not the answer. Pity is not the answer. The Lakota are an incredibly beautiful and proud people. There are pockets of strength in this failed state. They are usually formed around a school or a traditional teacher-medicine man or a strong head of a family who spreads it to his extended family.

I think I honestly want these photos to hurt the viewer. I want people to understand that what they see in these images is a result of a very long and very calculated oppression. It’s convenient that we can now step back and say: “Oh, no! Look. They are doing it to themselves! There is nothing we can do!” Very convenient for us. The story of the Lakota is the story of all indigenous people on every continent — they are steamrolled by the dominant society and pushed to the verge of extinction. Assimilate or die.

When I would return from these trips, people would ask why they don’t just “get over it” — the old pick-themselves-up-by-the-bootstraps argument. But you don’t just “get over” hundreds of years of oppression. Just because the guards went away one day and the prison camp was opened up doesn’t mean there was any place to go. Just because the prison door was opened doesn’t mean that the prisoner mentality doesn’t remain. It does remain, for generations and generations after. And it has left a deep scar on the people.

Correction
An earlier version of this post incorrectly quoted Mr. Huey as saying, “Pine Ridge is the scariest place I’ve ever been — more so than in a Taliban ambush.” Instead, he said, “Pine Ridge is the scariest place I’ve ever seen — not more so than in a Taliban ambush.” Mr. Huey also made the point that although Wounded Knee may be referred to elsewhere as a battlefield, as it was in an earlier version of this post, it is more accurately called a massacre site. “Battle connotes some kind of fair fight,” he wrote in an e-mail message. “It was a massacre with Gatling guns.”







Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on November 13, 2009, 02:32:41 am
Where would the Lakota homeland now be considered to be? I'm not asking about Pine Ridge, but where were the Lakota most at home before the European arrival? That would seem to me to be their spiritual home, and where the Lakota will finally prosper.

They didn't call them the Bad Lands for no reason at all. Truly a horrible situation.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 13, 2009, 04:58:42 am
Paul have you ever been to Pine Ridge or the other Lakota/Dakota reservations?
I live on my reservation life is hard here being Native is hard. We have a lot
of death here, in fact this week end five more funerals, we still have babies
who do not make it their first year. Many family have no food or for that
matter beds to sleep on. We wonder why people want to be like us.

Maybe you should charge $10,000 for a 5 day ndn retreat...  come live like an ndn for a week.. only $10,000...  learn what it's like... only $10,000 

?  I don't know ..  there's something wrong with the world.. with people..
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 13, 2009, 08:43:14 pm
Where would the Lakota homeland now be considered to be? I'm not asking about Pine Ridge, but where were the Lakota most at home before the European arrival? That would seem to me to be their spiritual home, and where the Lakota will finally prosper.

They didn't call them the Bad Lands for no reason at all. Truly a horrible situation.


Our homeland are North Dakota/South Dakota/Wyoming/Montana/Nebraska/Minnesota/Iowa/Wisconsin/Coraldo
Three canadian Province Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Ontario. We have section in each of these states we are  a large nation with Lakota/Dakota/Nakota people. The Black Hills is our center and our heart it is were we belong
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 13, 2009, 08:43:46 pm
Paul have you ever been to Pine Ridge or the other Lakota/Dakota reservations?
I live on my reservation life is hard here being Native is hard. We have a lot
of death here, in fact this week end five more funerals, we still have babies
who do not make it their first year. Many family have no food or for that
matter beds to sleep on. We wonder why people want to be like us.

Maybe you should charge $10,000 for a 5 day ndn retreat...  come live like an ndn for a week.. only $10,000...  learn what it's like... only $10,000 

?  I don't know ..  there's something wrong with the world.. with people..

Sorry can't do that then I would be like those kind of people
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 13, 2009, 10:16:30 pm
Paul have you ever been to Pine Ridge or the other Lakota/Dakota reservations?
I live on my reservation life is hard here being Native is hard. We have a lot
of death here, in fact this week end five more funerals, we still have babies
who do not make it their first year. Many family have no food or for that
matter beds to sleep on. We wonder why people want to be like us.

Maybe you should charge $10,000 for a 5 day ndn retreat...  come live like an ndn for a week.. only $10,000...  learn what it's like... only $10,000 

?  I don't know ..  there's something wrong with the world.. with people..

Sorry can't do that then I would be like those kind of people

Oh I know.  I was trying to make funny...  sorry. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: flyaway on November 13, 2009, 11:13:35 pm
I have read the whole thread with much interest. I to have been to Pine Ridge and Rose Bud. I had a very close sister/friend who was born on Rose bud and than taken away with her siblings. A few years back she found her mother in a nursing home at Rose Bud. "Eve" was not enrolled and lived in mainstream America, a very loving and wonderful lady. After Locating her mother she became enrolled, and she changed drastically, over night and it was not to the good. Within 2 weeks she moved with a Oglala man to Pine Ridge, she had only known him a short while, and she started to drink heavily.
 she becamed so much in despair that she tried to commit suicide. I traved to Rose Bud to try to find her and even went to Pine Ridge, what was in the Op yes it was like a third world country. My heart was so heavy, I cried because of the pain I felt for these my brothers and sisters, Grandmas and Grandpas. No food, water, heat, shacks to live in with no windows and yes many families in one room houses, Little ones running around, hungary and saddly so many are alcoholics, NDN's body CAN NOT tolerate alcohol. they have no tolerance.

I will say it was told to me that those in charge of ditribution of funds and foods are currupt on many REZ in this country, often leaving little for THE PEOPLE. I know this occurs with the CNO.
I have said it over and over, one has no right to speak about these things without knowledge or unless they themselves have gone to the Reservations and spent time.
 You want to be enrolled and or be NDN do more than be one in cyberspace or prance around a circle in your ragalia doing a dance of somekind, go visit the Rez. Did I find my beautiful Sister/friend NO, it all became to much for her, I visted her grave.

As I have noted on this forum, there are so many fake tribes out there with chiefs, clan mothers, it is nauseating and they are raping our culture. I met some of the "chiefs from these fake tribes and they have no "inkling" about our traditions, culture, language. How can there be state recognition if you have to have 200 direct linkage to the original rolls. I do not believe it is possible! I also do not believe having an enrolledment card proves anything, if you know who you are already. You are chasing the WIND!!!
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

We who are clay blended by the Master Potter, come from the kiln of Creation in many hues. How can people say one skin is colored, when each has its own coloration? What should it matter that one bowl is dark and the other pale, if each is of good design and serves its purpose well."
~Polingaysi Qoyawayma, Hopi
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 14, 2009, 12:51:30 am
Did I find my beautiful Sister/friend NO, it all became to much for her, I visted her grave.

I am so sorry about your friend. Thank you for your words.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 14, 2009, 01:20:41 am
@ flyaway, et al,,

Thank you for your story,
I have been so embarrassed over the posts that I made about this that I don't even want to post this request to say,,,
I'm sorry

I will not post for a while, please give me time to recover from my shame...



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 14, 2009, 01:28:50 am
Quote
You want to be enrolled and or be NDN do more than be one in cyberspace or prance around a circle in your ragalia doing a dance of somekind, go visit the Rez. Did I find my beautiful Sister/friend NO, it all became to much for her, I visted her grave.

Good post flyaway.  It seems a lot of people want to be this kind of an Indian.  They live all their lives as a non, and then they all of a sudden recently discover their so called heritage.    Its such a joke.  A lot of them actually think that dressing up in buckskin and feathers and dancing in powwows is gonna actually make them more Indian.  What a joke.  Then you have the other kind, that learn a little on the internet, or read a book, or meet a real Indian one time, or spend a weekend on a reservation, and then they think that they are all enlightened and wise all of a sudden.  And then they take it upon themsevles to try and teach others about Indians.  These people are so easy to pick out.  Its so insulting to meet these people.  


If these people want to learn, then thats ok.  But they should learn to keep their mouth shut
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 14, 2009, 03:47:57 am
Flyaway, Diane, Earthw7, everyone.. everyone.. everyone..  I don't know..  I mean, I know how your stories affect me, but I don't know, can't know, can't imagine or even pretend to know or even have a clue as to how it affects all of you when these 'stories' are your every day in and day out lives.. 

I can't say..  what I feel of that.. 

But, today, I learned something.. I learned what it means to be proud of where you 'come from'.  You, your peoples, have withstood..  I mean, how many peoples have withstood the invasion of another peoples, mass genocides and forced cohesion and yet.. have survived.. still carrying the traditions forward.  What I understand and feel of this is not pity..  in light of what I see, what you have all shown me.. I can say I am honored to have known such a people in my lifetime.  And I think these 'wannabes' and fakeflakes, and the majority general population are the ones to be 'pitied'..  because they have missed out on learning about a peoples who are beyond measure ..... incredible in strength, fortitude, passion and belief.

It just amazes me to know that still.. to this day... you have kept your center.. even in the horrendous conditions and hardships that have been brought on you.. you are still who you are.  And I am proud to know you.. even when I know that I do not know you at all.

I am so sorry for the crap you've had thrown at you.. and yet, I am so ... without words to convey how I feel.. see..  from long ago before white man came.. the people who held the traditions and lived a way of life.. to now..  and there you are.. you have carried it forward through all this time.. through all this strife, grief, hardship, torture, through EVERYTHING...  You should be proud of who you are, and I know you are proud, and I feel that today, I have learned why you are a proud people.  You've earned that right. 

Thank you. 






Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 14, 2009, 03:21:48 pm
Oh, I had meant to add, that after all that.. all those years..  anyone coming up and thinking they can just take your culture and beliefs.. or pretend they are you..  those people are so wrong..  how a drop of ggg ma's blood can somehow make someone think they are ndn.. and just have a right.  They should be more than grateful that you all took the pain and abuse to have that culture to share with them, and yes, it should be up to no one else, who to share, give it to, but to those who have carried it forward.  You are the only ones, imo, who have the right to make those choices. 

But you don't need me to tell you any of this.  I know that.  I'm just stating what I've learned since coming here. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 15, 2009, 03:25:58 pm
I guess the thankful and a little shocked because so many people
just want to abuse our culture and way of life.
A woman ask me this summer after my son died how do you do
it go on with life. I told her I have prayer and family and with that
comes laughter. Our way of life is living
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 15, 2009, 08:23:58 pm
She laughed?  What kind of sick freak....  !! 

I'm so sorry that happened to you!! 

I remember all too well my mom's pain (and my dad's) when my brother died..  any sick freak who would laugh at anyone's way of dealing with grief doesn't deserve the spit of being spit on. 

My family doesn't have religious/spiritual beliefs, so there was no prayer.. just family. And my mom said that 'life is for the living' ..  we need to keep living..

But to have someone laugh?  I'm stunned..  perhaps I am too naive.. as I have no way to understand anyone laughing at another's grief.  I think that's bordering on evil to do that. It certainly isn't human. 

I am sorry for all of your losses earthw7..  may peace find you and yours in healing. 

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 15, 2009, 08:30:31 pm
A woman ask me this summer after my son died how do you do
it go on with life. I told her I have prayer and family and with that
comes laughter. Our way of life is living

DUH!  Sorry..  I understand.. I think you are saying that 'laughter' comes with prayer and family.   :) 

That is a good way.  Sorry for misunderstanding.. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 19, 2009, 04:42:25 pm
This is a letter from Indian Country Today, frauds supporting other frauds. This is also why I cancelled my subscription three years ago. ICT is like Wikipedia, it is not a reliable source and you constantly have to check the facts because they don't. Click on the first link and you can watch the web cast of the senate committe. My bold.

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/opinion/letters/69909172.html



http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2427.msg20276#msg20276

Reply 170



Similar story rings through
Story Published: Nov 15, 2009

Story Updated: Nov 12, 2009

Watching the Webcast for the hearing that occurred on Nov. 4 entitled “Fixing the Federal Acknowledgment Process,” hosted by the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, I was struck by the same story that my own people face.

One of the most striking testimonies, and one so familiar, was that of Anne D. Tucker, chairperson, Muscogee Nation of Florida. I felt her words and they stirred my heart deeply. Her words rang out the voice of so very many non-recognized Native American Indian descendants from all across this country. The ton of paper work, the Jim Crow mind set, the burning of records; these are descriptions of our struggle to be heard and remembered.

The way in which Tucker described her peoples growing sense that the system and the process would never work; she was not only saying it for Muscogee Nation of Florida, she was saying it for the Saponi people and all the rest of the non-recognized Native American descendants from the eastern shores to the Pacific, from Alaska to the Midwest and all points in between.

Non-recognized Native American descended people are among the most at risk for completely losing their identity. We so often hear about the plight of the reservation people, but how often do we hear about the plight of non-recognized Indian people? When you see these mixed-bloods do not heap more derision upon a people that have suffered. Do not think of them as “wannabes,”“thin-bloods,” “little-bloods,” or “hobbyists.” Do not think of them as “twinkies,” ”new agers,” or as “culture vultures.” They have been through enough and they still struggle with their identity and reviving their cultures.

Instead, strive to offer support to them for they are your brothers and sisters sharing a common history of colonial devastation and assimilation. They may not all look like you and, in fact, many may look African or European, but they are Native American descended people who are constantly denied their history, identity and religious freedom. They do not have reservations or access to the types of funding that federally recognized tribes enjoy. They are the poorest and most oppressed in Indian country. In fact, this segment of the Native American population is the most beset upon ethnic group in the United States today. What other ethnic group can claim that their 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion is contingent upon being federally recognized?

There are certainly problems and devastating conditions that exist on reservations today as has always been the case, however if you look at non-recognized Indian people that do not live on a reservation they too deal with poverty, lack of education, lack of health care, alcoholism and drug addiction.

They have the added burdens of identity crises and access to services all the while being derided by outsiders as well as federally recognized Indian people that fear their numbers. Say a prayer for these people and lend them your support for but the grace of God you could have been born among them.


– Scott Preston Collins
Saponi Nation of Ohio
Euless, Texas
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 19, 2009, 09:47:53 pm
This is a letter from Indian Country Today, frauds supporting other frauds. This is also why I cancelled my subscription three years ago. ICT is like Wikipedia, it is not a reliable source and you constantly have to check the facts because they don't. Click on the first link and you can watch the web cast of the senate committe. My bold.

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/opinion/letters/69909172.html



http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2427.msg20276#msg20276

Reply 170



Similar story rings through
Story Published: Nov 15, 2009

Story Updated: Nov 12, 2009

Watching the Webcast for the hearing that occurred on Nov. 4 entitled “Fixing the Federal Acknowledgment Process,” hosted by the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, I was struck by the same story that my own people face.

One of the most striking testimonies, and one so familiar, was that of Anne D. Tucker, chairperson, Muscogee Nation of Florida. I felt her words and they stirred my heart deeply. Her words rang out the voice of so very many non-recognized Native American Indian descendants from all across this country. The ton of paper work, the Jim Crow mind set, the burning of records; these are descriptions of our struggle to be heard and remembered.

The way in which Tucker described her peoples growing sense that the system and the process would never work; she was not only saying it for Muscogee Nation of Florida, she was saying it for the Saponi people and all the rest of the non-recognized Native American descendants from the eastern shores to the Pacific, from Alaska to the Midwest and all points in between.

Non-recognized Native American descended people are among the most at risk for completely losing their identity. We so often hear about the plight of the reservation people, but how often do we hear about the plight of non-recognized Indian people? When you see these mixed-bloods do not heap more derision upon a people that have suffered. Do not think of them as “wannabes,”“thin-bloods,” “little-bloods,” or “hobbyists.” Do not think of them as “twinkies,” ”new agers,” or as “culture vultures.” They have been through enough and they still struggle with their identity and reviving their cultures.

Instead, strive to offer support to them for they are your brothers and sisters sharing a common history of colonial devastation and assimilation. They may not all look like you and, in fact, many may look African or European, but they are Native American descended people who are constantly denied their history, identity and religious freedom. They do not have reservations or access to the types of funding that federally recognized tribes enjoy. They are the poorest and most oppressed in Indian country. In fact, this segment of the Native American population is the most beset upon ethnic group in the United States today. What other ethnic group can claim that their 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion is contingent upon being federally recognized?

There are certainly problems and devastating conditions that exist on reservations today as has always been the case, however if you look at non-recognized Indian people that do not live on a reservation they too deal with poverty, lack of education, lack of health care, alcoholism and drug addiction.

They have the added burdens of identity crises and access to services all the while being derided by outsiders as well as federally recognized Indian people that fear their numbers. Say a prayer for these people and lend them your support for but the grace of God you could have been born among them.


– Scott Preston Collins
Saponi Nation of Ohio
Euless, Texas




Quote
Scott Preston Collins:They are the poorest and most oppressed in Indian country

 WTH??? If this guy wants to try and play the victim, ( which he is not) then then he should get his facts straight. That is one of the most ignorant and clueless statements I have read in a very long time!!!
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on November 19, 2009, 11:00:49 pm

Non-recognized Native American descended people are among the most at risk for completely losing their identity. We so often hear about the plight of the reservation people, but how often do we hear about the plight of non-recognized Indian people? When you see these mixed-bloods do not heap more derision upon a people that have suffered. Do not think of them as “wannabes,”“thin-bloods,” “little-bloods,” or “hobbyists.” Do not think of them as “twinkies,” ”new agers,” or as “culture vultures.” They have been through enough and they still struggle with their identity and reviving their cultures.

This is ridiculous.  I'm sorry if I am ignorant of what it means about "identity" but I'm sorry, I just don't buy into this type of thing. 

I seriously have no wish to offend tons of people here, or anywhere, but "identity" is more than just who your gg mother or father is.. or who your other ancestors were.  The knowledge of 'knowing' who your ancestors were is great.. but it doesn't make your identity imo.  Can be PART of it, ok..  sure.. but if your identity in this world is based solely on who your ancestors were, I dunno, that sounds 'lost' to me already.

Of course, I can only speak from my own experience of being alive.  My identity comes from the inside of me, I know who I am.  If I suddenly found out my ancestors where this or that peoples.. it wouldn't change my identity in this world.. I am still who I am. 

I do not understand this 'loss of identity' argument from ADULTS who've probably grown up in a normal ( as per normal standards ) house with some parents and maybe some siblings.  Aunts, uncles and cousins.  Growing up.  Then.. suddenly all that is 'lost' because of some ancestors?  And because they aren't 'recognized' as NDN?  If that's the case, then these people have other issues that are perhaps more serious than Identity.. 

To me, sounds like cry babies who want someone to feel sorry for them.  Again, I am not trying to bash people who feel a sense of 'identity' to their ancestors.. 

I don't know, I have no sense of identity to any of my ancestors... but I still have my own identity..  so..  I don't know.  It doesn't seem right to me, and seems instead.. a whiners call to pity them.. 

Instead, strive to offer support to them for they are your brothers and sisters sharing a common history of colonial devastation and assimilation. They may not all look like you and, in fact, many may look African or European, but they are Native American descended people who are constantly denied their history, identity and religious freedom. They do not have reservations or access to the types of funding that federally recognized tribes enjoy. They are the poorest and most oppressed in Indian country. In fact, this segment of the Native American population is the most beset upon ethnic group in the United States today. What other ethnic group can claim that their 1st Amendment Freedom of Religion is contingent upon being federally recognized?

Again, I am hoping I am not offending tons of people when I say this.. but...  this is ludicrous.  I think the only sentence in here that makes sense as to WHY these people are crying is in regards to the 'FUNDING'.   

All I see are people looking to something on the outside for their identity, religious, spiritual, needs.  If they want to know who they are, and if they want to practice some sort of spiritual living, all they need to do is look within..  a lot.  It isn't against the law.

Once again, all I see are humans looking to other humans for their needs and answers to be met.  Look again. 

Maybe because I've always been alone I have a different perspective.  Yes, it's great to have someone to talk to.. but..  for what this article is saying.. holy cow man.. Apparently these peoples Lives, Sanity, and Spiritual Well Being are entirely up to you all and by giving them recognition.. you provide them with all they need?  That's a whole lot of responsibility to put on some other person or people.  Sorry, but I don't want anyone else to be responsible for my sense of Identity, or for my Religious/Spiritual practices.. 

And why do they need someone to say they are who they are so they can practice whatever beliefs they happen to have?  I don't think their 'religious freedoms' are compromised by not being 'recognized' as NDN ..  I think this whole logic and argument is silly..  in that..  if You feel you are someone, then be that someone, you don't need anyone to tell you you are someone or not.. 

And..  in regards to NDN's issues ..  I say again, that if a descendant really respects where they have come from, then they will not trample on it.. and rip it off .. and take chunks of it as their claim..  doing so, only shows that they don't really care... IMO. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 20, 2009, 01:18:06 am
One simple little question:
If the Muscogee Nation of Florida were to get Federal recognition,
Would they still be a Fake Tribe?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: bls926 on November 20, 2009, 02:18:44 am
One simple little question:
If the Muscogee Nation of Florida were to get Federal recognition,
Would they still be a Fake Tribe?


Paul, I see it didn't take long for you to get your attitude back.



As for the opinions of Scott Preston Collins, from the Saponi Nation of Ohio . . . What Rattle and critter already said. Does he really expect anyone to feel sorry for him or any other descendant? Don't call us wannabes or thin-bloods. Boo hoo. Collins is from Euless, Texas; maybe that should be Clueless, Texas.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 20, 2009, 02:39:25 am
One simple little question:
If the Muscogee Nation of Florida were to get Federal recognition,
Would they still be a Fake Tribe?


The muscogee nation can't even get state recognition, so I'm not too worried about them getting Federal recognition.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2009, 02:50:56 am
Quote
There are certainly problems and devastating conditions that exist on reservations today as has always been the case, however if you look at non-recognized Indian people that do not live on a reservation they too deal with poverty, lack of education, lack of health care, alcoholism and drug addiction.

The question is "who" is he talking about?  Cause everybody here knows you can't classify "non-recogznied Indians". 

Also, if you look at real legit mixed blood Indians from real Tribes.  For example in the Cherokee Nation in NE Oklahoma.  This may be a general statement, but for the most part, enrolled/legitimite light skin/white Indians that can pass for "white" don't deal with the above mentinoed issues that full bloods deal with.  In Oklahoma for example, most light skin Cherokees don't live in poverty, deal with alcoholism, or have lack of education,etc, etc.  ( I'm not saying there are not cases like this, because there are, just that in general, this is not the case )

Its the Full blood communites that deal with poverty and drug addiction, and these types of issues etc. ANd for the most part you don't hear light skin Indians claim all this discrimination that these jokers from these fake Tribes talk about.

Sometimes its just so comical to hear how these Wannabees talk.   
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Diana on November 20, 2009, 02:59:58 am
One simple little question:
If the Muscogee Nation of Florida were to get Federal recognition,
Would they still be a Fake Tribe?


Paul, I see it didn't take long for you to get your attitude back.



As for the opinions of Scott Preston Collins, from the Saponi Nation of Ohio . . . What Rattle and critter already said. Does he really expect anyone to feel sorry for him or any other descendant? Don't call us wannabes or thin-bloods. Boo hoo. Collins is from Euless, Texas; maybe that should be Clueless, Texas.



Hey Bonnie, I found some info and stats for Euless, Texas. Hmmm, it seems like Mr. Scott (white whine) Collins is living a pretty good life in Euless, Texas.

INCOME SNAPSHOT
Median household income

Local
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$49,582

National
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$41,994

Crime: The number of violent crimes recorded by the FBI in 2003 was 125. The number of murders and homicides was 0. The violent crime rate was 2.5 per 1,000 people.

Coffee: National and regional coffee companies with outlets here include Seattle's Best Coffee, Starbucks
More info about local coffee quotients

Support for libraries: Local government funding for the local library system, in fiscal years 2001-2002, was on par with the national average. (See library links below.)

RACE AND ETHNICITY 
 
Number  Pct   
 
White   34,743  75.5   
 
Black or African American   2,987  6.5   
 
American Indian and Alaska native   294  0.6   
 
Asian   3,288  7.1 
 
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander   856  1.9 
 
Some other race   2,475  5.4   
 
Two or more races   1,362  3.0 
 
Hispanic or Latino   6,125  13.3   
 
Sources: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census; ePodunk 


http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=26407
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2009, 03:00:21 am
Welcome back Paul123


Quote
If the Muscogee Nation of Florida were to get Federal recognition,
Would they still be a Fake Tribe?

Paul123, I'm sure by now you Do KNOW how the Fedeal Recognition process works.  So If there are real Historic Tribes that can't get recognized, theres no way this Fake Group would even come close.  But if by some miracle they did, then they'd still be fake in my book.  And You can say well, what if a real Tribe like the Seminole Tribe of Florida lost recognition, would they still be a real Tribe.  And the answer here would be yeah.  Paul123, just use common sense.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 20, 2009, 10:10:23 am
@BlackWolf,
thanks for the answer.

@bls925,
attitude?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: wolfhawaii on November 20, 2009, 03:42:36 pm
Paul , your period of shame has not yet expired. Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf!
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 20, 2009, 07:28:25 pm
A tribal is nation is more than government recogization
it is skin color, eye color, hair color and texture
it our relationship, our connection to the land,
it is our stories, it is so much more.

Now we who have always been here you can not hide
our brown skin who lived in a world where people hate
us who lived with suffering are ask to
accept these people
who don't look like us- don't act like us -don't know our stories
-don't know the land -dont understand our relationship
as tribal people when they were taught only the white culture
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 20, 2009, 09:51:26 pm
Since the question of Federal Recognition is disussed here.  Why do I always hear people trying to discredit the Mashantucket Pequots?  They are Federally Recognized.  This comes from both Indians and whites.  I think we discuseed this before with Rattlebone, and Bls.  I've concluded that they are NDN. But what does everyone elses think about this tribe in particular? 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 21, 2009, 03:29:04 am
cultrually they have issues
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on November 22, 2009, 11:52:30 am
Paul , your period of shame has not yet expired......

Well Dang,,, My Bad,,,

How long would that period be?
Better yet, would you just let me know when I could return?
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2009, 05:38:29 pm
I found a blog called Polly's Granddaughter that pertains to the discussion of descendants (so called Cherokee descendants ).  Whoever wrote it really explains the issue well. The blogger basically debunks most people's claims of having Cherokee ancestry but can't prove it.

The Myth of the Cherokee Grandma


I bet you are wondering who Polly is, aren't you? Well, she was my Cherokee grandma. I know, I know, just about everyone has a Cherokee grandma, but mine is real. I know her name and where she was born and where she died and who her parents were and who her husband was and who her children were. She was born to citizens of the Cherokee Nation East and moved with them when they relocated to Indian Territory. She was listed on every Cherokee roll that was taken from the time of her birth in the 1830's to the Miller Roll. Her existence is well documented and I have a paper trail that leads from her all the way to me.

If I seemed to have gone overboard on what I know about my Cherokee grandma, it is only because so many people claim to have one. Of course all my Cherokee friends have Cherokee grandma's or else they wouldn't be Cherokee, but there are a lot of other people who claim to have Cherokee grandmas too. If you are Indian, you have undoubtedly met at least one of these people in your life. Since you are Indian, these people seem to feel obliged to tell you about their Indian grandma. They rarely have a name to go with this grandma. They just know they have an Indian grandma, often Cherokee, often full blood. They have always heard stories about her.

The story is almost always the same. Here is "The Myth of the Cherokee Grandma".

I had a Cherokee grandma. She was a full blood. Not sure how far back she is in the family tree, but she was able to escape the Trail of Tears and then marry my grandpa. She was able to pass for white so the family never talked about her Indian blood because it was not good to be an Indian back in those days. Later generations didn't talk about her much because they were ashamed of her being Indian. We have tried to research her, but can't find anything about her because records on Indians were so rare.


This is a VERY common story. Oh, there will be a few minor differences to each story that is told, but the ultimate point of the story is to explain why the person cannot tell you who their Indian grandma was and why they cannot register with one of the three Federally Recognized tribes. When someone tells me this story about their family, I always wonder if they realize I have already heard this story at least 100 times before. I wonder if they have any idea how many other people tell a very similar story. And, I wonder if they realize, it is not mathematically possible for every person in the United States who claims to have a Cherokee grandma to actually have one. The historical Cherokee Nation just wasn't that large.

So, I know I might have gone a little overboard on stating what I know about Grandma Polly, but I didn't want her to be perceived as one of those mythological Cherokee grandmas some other people have.

Those are my thoughts for the day.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter


Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2009, 05:39:41 pm
The Myth of the Cherokee Grandma Part 2

My Cherokee grandma was a lot of things. She was a daughter, a mother, a grandmother and a great grandmother. She was a sister, an aunt, a niece and a friend. She was traditional, hard working and respected. Like I said, she was a lot of things, but there is one thing she was not. She was not a Cherokee Princess.

How many times have you heard someone proclaim their grandma was a Cherokee Princess? If you are like me, you have heard it too many times to count. Despite all the information that is now available explaining there was no such thing as a Cherokee Princess, people still continue to tell these stories. Usually, the "Cherokee Princess" has at least one and sometimes several greats in front of grandma, so that she is pretty far removed from the person telling you the story. Once again, they rarely know her name or any identifying details about her. All they know is she was a "princess".

When I hear these Cherokee Princess stories, I can't help but roll my eyes. One search on Google displays a number of resources that explains the myth of the Cherokee Princess. How can a person not know there was NO SUCH THING?

I have heard of a Cherokee Princess. Who was she?
The Cherokee Princess Myth
The Myth of the Cherokee Princess

I always wonder if the person telling the story has ever logically thought about what they are saying. Do they seriously believe if the Cherokee Nation had princesses, the names of those princesses would have been forgotten? I wonder why these people who believe they have a princess in their ancestry don't also claim they have a king or a chief or a queen too. Wouldn't the parents of the princess be part of their family? I also wonder why someone, somewhere, decided the real truth about their ancestors wasn't good enough, so they had to invent some mythological Cherokee Princess grandma to make things more interesting. Doesn't each of our ancestors, whether good or bad, have something unique and special about them that makes them worth remembering on their own merits?

My Cherokee Grandma was named Polly. She was born in Georgia in the early 1830's. She traveled with her parents when they relocated to Indian Territory before the forced removal. After losing her first husband in the Civil War, she married my grandpa. Together, they had three children and also raised my grandpa's niece who was left an orphan after the war. Grandma found herself a widow again when grandpa died. Despite this, she still raised three more children, two granddaughters and a grand nephew, who were motherless. From time to time, she would also take in other children who had no where else to go.

My Cherokee grandma was not a rich woman. She didn't live in a big house or own fancy things. By all standards, she was an average citizen of the Cherokee Nation. So, maybe I can't live under the illusion that somehow, I am more special, because my grandma was a Cherokee princess. But, at least my grandma was real. And I will take that over any fictitious princess any day of the week.

Those are my thoughts for the day.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter

Read more: http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/search/label/Wannabes#ixzz0Xbwp8mMM
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2009, 05:40:39 pm

Looking for Cherokee Ancestry
Contrary to popular belief, it is not extremely difficult to find a Cherokee ancestor if there is one. The Cherokees are most likely the best documented group of people there is. Often times, it is easier to trace a Cherokee ancestor than it is to trace a white one.

From my experience, if you are truly of Cherokee descent, you can prove it. If you cannot prove it by conventional genealogical methods, then you need to explore the idea that you very well might not have Cherokee blood. I often read people's family stories on Cherokee genealogy boards and those stories tend be in direct contrast with real Cherokee history. One thing I would recommend for anyone wanting to research the possibility of a Cherokee ancestor is to study the true history of the Cherokees and then see if your family story makes sense.

Things to pay attention to would be WHERE your family was living when they supposedly were Cherokee and the YEAR they were living there. Also if your family signed up for "something", what exactly did they sign up for? Where were they living when they signed up for such things? Remember, if your family has any connection with the Cherokee Nation, they MUST have been residing in the nation at some point in time, whether it was Cherokee Nation East or Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory.

Also be aware that when the Dawes Roll and Guion Miller rolls were being done, lawyers traveled around the country and told people that, for a small fee, they could get them Indian land or money. They said the Cherokees had no records so they would not be able to disprove the people's claims. Those lawyers were lying and knew there was little to no chance those people would be approved, but they were just out to swindle unsuspecting people. This explains why many people applied for either the Dawes or Miller Roll and then were eventually rejected. Many people wrongly assume that, because their family made an application for Indian land or money, then they were Indian but just could not prove it. This is absolutely NOT true.

There were many people who were simply frauds who were out to try to get "a piece of the pie". They weren't Indians and they didn't care about the Indians. All they cared about was trying to get something for nothing and they saw the Indians as an easy target falsely believing the Indians had no records. Though not a pretty side of history, it is a true part of history.

If you don't agree with what I am saying, then either you need to learn more about true and accurate Cherokee history or you are just not willing to accept the truth. My only goal is to share the accurate history of the Cherokee Nation, but I realize, like the old saying says, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink." I know there are people, who until their dying breath, will cling to their family stories no matter how outrageous they might be. If you are one of those people, all I can say is, you can claim whatever you want and you can believe whatever you want, but no matter what you claim, without proof, will never make you a Cherokee.

Those are my thoughts for the day.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter



Read more: http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/search/label/Wannabes#ixzz0Xbx9gSOj



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2009, 05:42:59 pm
Here's the link with a lot of other good articles pertaining to the subject.

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/pollys-granddaughter (http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/pollys-granddaughter)
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 22, 2009, 06:05:20 pm
Quote from: Polly's grandaughter
Also be aware that when the Dawes Roll and Guion Miller rolls were being done, lawyers traveled around the country and told people that, for a small fee, they could get them Indian land or money. They said the Cherokees had no records so they would not be able to disprove the people's claims. Those lawyers were lying and knew there was little to no chance those people would be approved, but they were just out to swindle unsuspecting people. This explains why many people applied for either the Dawes or Miller Roll and then were eventually rejected. Many people wrongly assume that, because their family made an application for Indian land or money, then they were Indian but just could not prove it. This is absolutely NOT true.

There were many people who were simply frauds who were out to try to get "a piece of the pie". They weren't Indians and they didn't care about the Indians. All they cared about was trying to get something for nothing and they saw the Indians as an easy target falsely believing the Indians had no records.
(emphasis added)

Excellent points.

The more things change... the more the frauds stay the same.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 22, 2009, 09:53:20 pm

Kathryn Nic Dhana said

Quote
The more things change... the more the frauds stay the same.

Good point Kathryn!!  and sooo true. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 23, 2009, 03:46:35 am
cultrually they have issues

 Culture isn't part of the recognition process, and should not be. Seriously, how could the United States make culture a part of recognition when they are the ones responsible for it's demise???

 Furthermore you can not pass judgment on one nation due to the condition of culture still existing in your tribe versus what is in theirs.

 One must also realize though everyone native to here might be called Native American, Indian, etc etc; those are still blanket terms equivalent to similar words such as Asian, European etc.

 The reality as you already know, each tribe is it's own culture and nation. A people from one nation should not have a say in the recognition of another based on culture, when the fact is their culture is not even the same in the first place.

 Regardless if native nations here have always existed and been sovereign, if they expect to be taken seriously by Americans and the rest of the world, then they should act like other nations and not base membership solely on things based on culture and blood fractions. Especially when they wail against what Europeans have done here, and yet they perpetuate those European concepts by passing judgment on their own relations based on European concepts such as BQ, or wish to see another nation not recognized because their culture was wiped out by the Colonial European power who is responsible for it's destruction in the first place.

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on November 23, 2009, 03:57:10 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?



Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 23, 2009, 06:50:03 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?





 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 23, 2009, 07:14:45 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?

This is not a comment on the Mashantucket Pequots, but about the exchange above:

I thought culture was the whole point... That it's not so much about BQ, it's about who your people are, how you were raised, who you interact with and rely on and who relies upon you, and what your deep-seated values and customs and beliefs are.

Leaving the government recognition or non-recognition based on BQ out of this for the moment, my understanding is that BQ does sometimes comes into it on an interpersonal level because of how much racism some people face as opposed to others, and what that does to a community. BQ can sometimes be an indicator of how someone was raised, because when you have outsiders marrying in, it does effect how the children are raised - what language they speak, what their values are, etc., even if the person who has married in does their best to adopt the ways of that culture. But again, that comes back to family culture and community more than DNA.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 23, 2009, 07:34:30 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?






Quote
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.

 No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.


Quote
The political structure
of euro,

 If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

 
Quote
who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.

 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

Quote
Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

 I know you believe non tribal Mexicans to be NDN's because I have seen you say so in other places. The vast majority of them who are not tribal do not have the culture of their ancestors. So who are they??

Quote
No belief in the homeland,

 How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them????

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??

 
Quote
A belief in euro spirituality

 Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Quote
maybe even Christianity

 Are there no Christians amongst your people??

Quote
What makes a person?

  Probably those things  and experiences in their lives that make them who they are as well as those things passed down to them.

 You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

Quote
What make a tribal person?

 To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on November 23, 2009, 07:39:56 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?



 I believe it was about the Peqout. Blackwolf mentioned them, and then I took it as Earth commenting about them.

If I was wrong I apologize, but I did think a conversation about the Pequot had started up here.

I will concede in my life I have not been much of a Pequot supporter until I spoke to a boy of about 17 years of age who was an enrolled member, and talked to me for hours about wanting to learn more then he knew.

 I also ties to Pequot from St. David's Island in Bermuda. I know their are many who are trying to be more then just Peqout on paper, and are doing the best they can.

I am sure the same can be said about other recognized tribes with similar histories and conditions.  So I do not think Earth was being fair in her assessment of them, and saying they should not be recognized.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on November 23, 2009, 09:57:28 pm
Rattlebone said

Quote
If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

You make a good point here Rattlebone.  The Cheokees never had a "Principle Chief" before European contact.  It was more like "Head men and Warriors" from various towns in Cherokee Territory. There was never a single Chief. 

I would agree that as far as "political citizenship" in a "Nation" is concerened, that this is a seperate thing from culture.  Should all Tribal Members and Citizens know their history and culture.  Abosolutly they should.  While I do agree that they ( Pequots ) DO have culture issues, I don't beleive that makes them less Pequot.  This Tribe in particular was/is located on the Eastern Seaboard.  And they were right in the crosshairs of European expansion and colinization.  One can only imagine what it must have been like for these people's ancestors back then. I look at them as people that brought their Tribe back from eventual complete assimilation and dissapearance from the face of the Earth.  Was the issue of having a casino part of them becoming Federally Recognized?  I don't know if it was or was not.  But even if it was in fact part of the equation.  A good thing has become of it.  And that is the renewal of a soverign people.  Yeah, maybe their not full bloods, and yeah, maybe they did lose a lot of their culture.  But considering the circumstances, they survived the best they could.  If they were just a bunch of podias with no concrete proof of who they were, I would feel diferently.  But they can document who they are as a people from Historic Times.

Many Tribes were affected culturally by European Contact.  The horse has been a part of the culture of Plains Tribes for centuries.  And colored beads were brought by Europeans.  Virtually every tribe in America has adapted in some way or the other.  Some were assimilated more like the Pequots, and some less so, but still all Tribes adapted the best they could.

 
Quote
If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

yes
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: BlackWolf on December 05, 2009, 02:25:12 am

I said this in reply 10 in regards to people who claimed Cherokee heritage on the census.

Quote
I think one of the censuses alone some years back showed it was over 500,000.

Its actually more then that.  These are the exact numbers I found on one of the US Census's Websites.  It shows 729,533 to be exact given by the US Census Bureau in the year 2000.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0036.pdf (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0036.pdf)

Someone told me its probably over a million and I can see why if you take into consideration that there are most likely more people who claim Cherkoee Heritage that for what ever reason didn't report it on the census.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on December 17, 2009, 09:46:09 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?



 I believe it was about the Peqout. Blackwolf mentioned them, and then I took it as Earth commenting about them.

If I was wrong I apologize, but I did think a conversation about the Pequot had started up here.

I will concede in my life I have not been much of a Pequot supporter until I spoke to a boy of about 17 years of age who was an enrolled member, and talked to me for hours about wanting to learn more then he knew.

 I also ties to Pequot from St. David's Island in Bermuda. I know their are many who are trying to be more then just Peqout on paper, and are doing the best they can.

I am sure the same can be said about other recognized tribes with similar histories and conditions.  So I do not think Earth was being fair in her assessment of them, and saying they should not be recognized.

I was talking about people and culture in general, I did not say they should not be recoginzed.
I said
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

I am saying again culture is important, which include eye contact etc...
I am saying how your are raised in a Native communities with the belief
system is different, The ideals of life is different.
I was talking about the post on the cherokee princess post.
I have to include in here that Standing Rock established its
tribal council in 1919 and wrote their own constitution then in 1934
they refuse to adopt IRA except statement that were already in our
constitution. The government does not decide if the Lakota/Dakota/nakota
Nation exist we do.
Adaption of the tribes to what was brought in to our country is just
a part of being human.

I guess for many of us here in the Dakotas we don't have large groups
of people wanting to enroll as adults the people are enrolled at birth
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on December 17, 2009, 09:50:03 pm
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?





 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??
what has this got to do with cherokee princess? where did i say BQ??
I was talking about culture.
the topic is:
Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters

Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on December 17, 2009, 10:05:49 pm
I had to open two post so I could repy to Rattle :o

No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.



I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted.

If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.


 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

that is culture.

How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them?

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??


who are you talking about? the cherokee?

Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

Are there no Christians amongst your people??

there are those who follow the desert cult

You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

this statement about what make a person is their culture, lifeways and their enivronment,
as my people would say we are just trying to be human beings and it is hard to do that

To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.

A tribal people are held together by their culture, lifeways, stories, land, spirituality, and family
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on December 20, 2009, 08:19:20 am
About people's with lost culture, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

When I sweated, it was with the Menominee, I remember they told me that so much of their culture was lost, that they had to borrow from the Lakota. 

True, I don't know how much of their culture was lost, nor do I know how much of what they were doing was Lakota. 

I only know I was told by them, that much of their culture was lost, and they borrowed from Lakota.

So.. does that make them not a recognized tribe then?  I don't think so.  So, with that, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: E.P. Grondine on January 01, 2010, 06:47:46 pm
It strikes me that the later US federal government recognized tribes when they needed somebody to "buy" the land from. That formed the first basis of he "recognition" process.

In Mexico the situation was much different, as the conquistadors simply killed the tribal/city leaders, and took their place. The Catholic clergy eliminated the culture, but the local people were pretty fed up with the abuses of the local rulers, and the clergy did provide some protection against the abuses of the conquistadors.

I can't speak to the history of the conquest in Canada, as I do not know it in detail. But Les Francais generally intermarried, and had no problem in doing so, to my knowledge. Culturally, I think the Meti visitor here pretty well summed it up, and I have nothing to add, as I have no knowledge of the methods of conquest used by Les Anglais.

As critter's comments on the devastation of the Menominee culture applies to other peoples as well, rattlebone raises some good questions.







Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on January 03, 2010, 06:52:02 pm
I had to open two post so I could repy to Rattle :o

No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.



I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted.

If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.


 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

that is culture.

How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them?

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??


who are you talking about? the cherokee?

Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

Are there no Christians amongst your people??

there are those who follow the desert cult

You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

this statement about what make a person is their culture, lifeways and their enivronment,
as my people would say we are just trying to be human beings and it is hard to do that

To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.

A tribal people are held together by their culture, lifeways, stories, land, spirituality, and family


Quote
I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted

 You can not possibly say that this is true of every single person on your rez, and that it will continue unchanged for future generations.

 I do hope that your tribe and every tribe today can manage to preserve their culture and ways long into the future after all of us here are gone.

 However as I pointed out earlier, the recognition process has nothing to do with culture and it should not. The United States government like other European governments once present here, has taken huge steps all the way up to very recent times to eradicate native people and their culture. In many cases they were very successful in the eradication of not just an entire culture, but the people themselves.

 That in mind, making culture one of the requirements for recognition would be wrong considering the US government is the one responsible for the eradication of culture.

 Furthermore if you wish to have your nation and other tribal nations viewed as  nations, and not simply some domestic dependent, then perhaps you should really sit down and think about how tribes that can legitimately trace their ancestry and relationship with United States back to historic times have the right to be Nations regardless of culture loss or their BQ as a whole. No nation on this planet has an existence based on the amount of culture going back to ancient times, or if everyone has the exact same ethnic make up.

 The concept of a nations state and ethnic group all nicely fitted together within one border is almost what you are talking about here, and that is very European in concept. It is the same sort of idea that those who push such ideas have used to commit genocide on your own people.

 So in turn, regardless of the Peqout people and their lack of original culture and their lower bQ, as a nation that has existed going back since time immemorial, they have the same right to exist as a nation as your people do.

Quote
I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.

 Pointing out that your tribe and it's history is different from mine or any other tribal nation might be true, but that does not change the fact that your current tribal government and it's constitution is not the traditional government your people once went by. The current tribal government of your people, like every other tribal government in the United States is more like the United States Government, and had to be approved by the BIA and US government in general before it was allowed to operate.

 
Quote
that is culture.

 proving that your people have existed since time immemorial, and later had a government to government relationship with the United States as part of the recognition is not culture, but rather is proving that you have the right to exist as a distinct people and sovereign nation as you always have since the dawn of man.  This of course would mean that most likely you had your own distinct culture, but this proving a political existence as in regards to the recognition process is not and should not be proving culture.

Quote
who are you talking about? the cherokee? 

No, I thought we had started talking about the Pequot here. Of course some ignorant people will say that the Cherokee are not a real nation anymore, or that a great deal of their people are not really "Indian" anymore. In that regards, a lot of this here conversation between us would then be applicable as well.


Quote
Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

 Supposedly tribal?

 Do you think those people in Europe just sprung up from the earth being exactly as they are now with their belief systems, their cites, and their governments?

  If you go back in time before the coming of the Romans, most of Europe was filled with tribal people. Have you never heard of them speak of the Germanic tribes, or the Celts? At one time they were a tribal people too, and though I am not saying their culture was the same as the ones here; they were indeed a tribal people.

 Of course their were and still are tribal people all over the world. Just because these other people are tribal does not mean their culture will be anything like yours or any other people here. Of course some tribes here in the America's have cultures as different from each other as the English are to the Chinese. Still all cultures and people here are lumped together under the words "Indian," "Native" etc, and with that we sometimes forget we are all very different too.

 It should be noted though that you could probably find similarities and differences between your people with just about any on the planet. There is nothing special about any people or culture on this planet more so then any other. Each and every people are unique and special in their own way. We all have our differences and our similarities.

Quote
there are those who follow the desert cult

 That is rather disrespectful of you, even if I am not christian  myself. Would you appreciate somebody referring to Ghost Dance as cult, or saying such things about your spiritual ways?

None the less, if your tribe had 100% of it's people convert to Christianity today; would you still believe your people should have the right to retain their sovereignty????????
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on January 17, 2010, 11:16:44 am
About people's with lost culture, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

When I sweated, it was with the Menominee, I remember they told me that so much of their culture was lost, that they had to borrow from the Lakota. 

True, I don't know how much of their culture was lost, nor do I know how much of what they were doing was Lakota. 

I only know I was told by them, that much of their culture was lost, and they borrowed from Lakota.

So.. does that make them not a recognized tribe then?  I don't think so.  So, with that, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

It does if your Echota,,,
They get a lot of flack for adapting/evolving  Clan-ship from maternal to geographical, due mostly to lost culture.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on January 19, 2010, 06:11:39 am


It does if your Echota,,,



 Gross oversimplification on your part their Paul.

 The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe. I would say that it is very likely that the Pequot have very little to none of their culture left, however there is no doubt they are a real, legitimate tribal nation.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on January 19, 2010, 09:37:37 am
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Rattlebone on January 19, 2010, 10:19:14 pm
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 

So what you are saying, if you had your way; every person that claims some ggggggg grandmother or grandfather and attaches that claim to some band of a larger tribe, you think they should get tribal recognition.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Paul123 on January 20, 2010, 12:21:50 am
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 

So what you are saying, if you had your way; every person that claims some ggggggg grandmother or grandfather and attaches that claim to some band of a larger tribe, you think they should get tribal recognition.



Well IF I had my way,,, hummm?
The only way I would go for something as liberal as what you are trying to make me sound like would be if after that all Tribal rolls were frozen forever,,, except for new born.
But the truth is ,,,, I'm not that liberal.
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: earthw7 on January 22, 2010, 03:04:18 pm
That is rather disrespectful of you, even if I am not christian  myself. Would you appreciate somebody referring to Ghost Dance as cult, or saying such things about your spiritual ways?


Sorry been away... I do have to explain that the ghost dance was a cult it was from a man called Jack Wilson who went school at Carlise return to his tribe the Paiutes and mixed his belief and the christian belief together then it spread across the west as it made it way to Lakota country it changed again so
the whole belief adopted as it came east. Many of our people never believed in the Ghost dance and either
did Sitting Bull. So it was a cult.
The Christian belief has been changed and adapted by those who wrote the book like the monk who made mary a virgin or the ideal the peter started the church in rome which none of it is true, a cult that spread.

The belief in something greater than it self is not a cult but something personal inside of you that no man can tell you how or what to believe.


I am sorry for the misunderstand i did not go back to the frist page when i wrote because I was talking about the cherokee who are not recogized never been a part of their tribe but want to be.
I will say I am sorry that the tribe you named does not have the cultural background.
I guess the core of who I am is my culture and language and yes it is hard to understand why a person would claim to be but not live. Our culture is hard but we must live it
Title: Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
Post by: Sparks on January 03, 2020, 04:56:54 pm
Question:  Who determines State Recognition in Alabama? Who decides if a group is a legitimate tribe?
 
Answer:  The Alabama Indian Affairs Commission

Tribes Recognized by the State of Alabama 
Quote
[…] Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe of Alabama
James C. Wright, Chief
202 North Main
Kinston, AL 36453
(334) 565-3038 
E-Mail: chiefjames@centurytel.net
Web Site: www.machistribe.com
 
Commissioners
Quote
Ma-Chis Lower Creek
Nancy Carnley
PO Box 7
New Brockton, AL 36351-0007
(334) 894-0108
E-Mail: machis@centurytel.net […]

The above-mentioned tribe is now the subject of a new topic:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5445.0
[Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe]