NAFPS Forum

Hello, I wonder if anyone has heard of a group called Warrior's Breath? Now, seems pretty likely that it was one person who ran an elaborate hoax, posing as an Indian shaman type... but there's no way to be sure, lol. I did some work with them/her - I think it was actually a her - which was very interesting, I never paid any money, and they helped me a great deal, mainly using Western stuff like John Bradshaw etc. - I just wonder if anyone has ever heard of them at all at all... The main guy was supposed to be called ta da John.

Peace,
LOD

All the references to this seem to be to martial arts practices, except for this bit of weirdness.
http://www.warriorsbreath.com/

Bradshaw's one of those human potential pop psychology types. If they were using his techniques, it's pretty likely they weren't Native.

Could you tell us more? Did they name a specific tribe? Where did all this happen? How'd you meet up with them?

And the "I think it's a her" comment? Could you explain?

The link is them. They had a site up at one time.

Basically, I was on Kris Raphael's Toltec Nagual forum, and met a guy there who said he was an Indian. He was a very, very interesting, compassionate individual, with a lot of fascinating ideas. He died, and I appeared to be working with his friends over the net for a while when things went pear shaped, lol. Later on it was said that it was all a hoax and that it was all one woman - probably Kris Raphael's wife - playing a lot of characters and drawing a lot of people in to an elaborate hoax.

Don't get me wrong - I've no personal complaints, I really learned a great deal, and no money was asked for or anything like that - but things went pear shaped and it would be nice to think that the guy was real. If not, he's one of my favourite fictional characters. Wasn't because he was supposed to be Indian - it was just that he seemed wise and compassionate, and articulated a lot of sense about not putting other people down just to get your point across - which I liked. And, sad as it is, I just felt he was a friend. Bloody internet, lol.

The group was called Warrior's Breath, the guy said he was a "Ghost Walker".. the only Indian word they ever used was "debwe" which they said meant something like "allowance". Heavily Castaneda influenced kind of stuff. Said they ran courses.

I dunno - so many people would have had to have been played by this one person that I always keep hold of a hope that that wise, compassionate man wasn't a made up game. Aya! So many things that look cool turn out to be nothing like they present.

Certainly had links wth California area.

I think it was just a hoax, but I held out a little hope that people like that really exist, even on the web of deceit we call the net, lol.

Thanks anyway.

Toltecs have been gone for 800 years, and Castaneda.... well, use the search button and read the threads.

You basically spent some time in someone's fantasy about NDNs, much like Castaneda did to his followers for his whole career. I doubt you "learned" anything except one person's bizarre little corner of his mind.

There's no "Indian" language, BTW. There are instead thousands of separate languages.

That they didn't take your money is a huge surprise. Raphael seems involved with all kinds of playing-Indian-for-profit scams. That's all those "mystery schools" do.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22kris+raphael%22+toltec&btnG=Google+Search

Well, thanks for that. I didn't say there was only one Indian language.

As for what I learned, before we go on, I have a strong academic background, a high degree in social-psychology, and a strong interest in philosophy; mainly Western, Continental philosophy, but I enjoy many fringe thinkers, including Castaneda who I think was a brilliant thinker, made up Indians or not.

I can decide for myself what I learned - point being that you saying I can't is a first step to taking over my thinking for me in many cults; and I have a specialist interest in the psychology of cult groups. Phrases like "I doubt they really cared for you..." etc - which is more sophisticated than a direct "I doubt you learned..." lol, which is a direct assimilation of my decision making. The actual subject is irrelevant - it's the process of eroding my confidence in my own ability to decide whether I did or didn't leanr something that is interesting.

One of the most important aspects of any anti-cult group has to be to be squeaky clean when it comes to cultish mechanisms.

Another one is absolouteism - like, it absoloutely true that all Castaneda is BS or, if ANY Indian is charging for a ceremony it is fake... Absoloutism is a warning sign of an ideology that lacks flexibility and a sense of reasonable boundary.

What absoloutism does is it - ironicallyin this case - makes you the final arbiter of truth; you say it, there's no deviation from it, no flexibility in it - simply because you assert it. Most people see that as a danger sign in any group - an absoloutist agenda. Most cult leaders, by definition, make absoloutist assertions.

But anyway, I think Kris's group is cultish, and I don't rate him as a thinker at all at all. Never did. I accused him of "selling people Indian" many moons ago. Funny really.

Seems this Lord of disco is another Sustained Reaction troll.

I suspect he is expecting people here to enjoy the sound of his own voice as much as he does.
I doubt that he has any concern for helping the NAFPS position and that he is here to try to out philosophize people.

Anyway, whatever he turns out to be when he gets to his point, here is the amazing Toltec Mystery School Guides.

http://toltecmysteryschool.com/schoolguides.htm

Garner,
Yep SR! figured that out after first post, kinda felt thst "I'm going to suck them in feeling" :-\  Me I ignore these people.
                                                                      Weheli

Yep, just the sock-puppets looking for attention. Have you heard for the editor of the Kentucky news? I haven't received a reply, but may not. frederica

Well, thanks a lot for the pre-judgement.

In my experience, Castaneda cult members or even admirers tend to be well read or even educated people who think that somehow because they've read a lot or been well educated, they're immune from ever becoming victims of a cult.

It just doesn't work like that. People become victims of a cult because of either a) being emotionally vulnerable, lonely, or isolated or b) because cult leaders are damned good at what they do, conning people by winning their CONfidence.

Castaneda's sole "genius" was in figuring out cult techniques that don't require the victims to be physically isolated from family and friends like most cults practice. And he also built a very convincing racist fantasy about Indians for people who needed a substitute for the more blatant racism that the civil rights movement had discredited.

His "wisdom"? Stolen and plagiarized from dozens of philosophers, mostly from India. Hindus, not American Indian.

But then you'd know that, Lord, if you hadn't been too lazy to actually read the other threads instead of prejudging this group of NDN activists for daring to criticize your cult.

It takes quite a bit of absolutist thinking to say that Your Great Leader just "cant ever be wrong" no matter what. No matter what includes him openly admitting being a fraud and laughing for the last two decades of his life at the gullibility of people who believed in him.

Like the others say, I refuse to be drawn into a long pointless debate, esp when the person is too lazy to read what's in front of them or even consider evidence.

If you want to talk more about your experience with the cult you were part of, you're welcome to. If you don't, I won't be surprised since denial is common for most cult victims.

Just so you know, so is being victimized by a second or even third cult, even after finally leaving the first one. I strongly urge you to look into counseling, or get online help from cult survivors' groups like Freedom of Mind.

Or if you want to find out about the issue of this forum instead of giving us shrill patronizing lectures, you're also welcome to stay too.

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In my experience, Castaneda cult members or even admirers tend to be well read or even educated people who think that somehow because they've read a lot or been well educated, they're immune from ever becoming victims of a cult.
End.

In my experience also, which is extensive. I am a sociologist and a philosopher from a Marxist/structurlaist background, specialising in ideological structres - all ideological structures, not just cult ones, but even down to the sub-conceptual level of why we see cause and effect as related.

I am not a member of any cult, although I have experience of them.

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It just doesn't work like that. People become victims of a cult because of either a) being emotionally vulnerable, lonely, or isolated or b) because cult leaders are damned good at what they do, conning people by winning their CONfidence.
End.

Well, I agree - and part of my interest is also why we see cults as cults, and other groups not as cults, and also the percieved differences between cult thinking and mass thinking.

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Castaneda's sole "genius" was in figuring out cult techniques that don't require the victims to be physically isolated from family and friends like most cults practice. And he also built a very convincing racist fantasy about Indians for people who needed a substitute for the more blatant racism that the civil rights movement had discredited.
End.

Well, I am not overly bothered by any of that, to be honest. I'm fascinated by how all charismatic figures attract the attention that they do, though.

As for Castaneda's cult, I know a great deal about Castaneda, and the people involved with him, and the inter personal dynamics are fascinating.

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His "wisdom"? Stolen and plagiarized from dozens of philosophers, mostly from India. Hindus, not American Indian.

End.

Anyway, if you actually want real, solid sources that could be ascribed to Castaneda, try Nietzsche especially, but also Husserl, Spinoza, Heidegger, possibly some Taoist stuff, and possibly Brinton's work on Nagual groups in central America.


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But then you'd know that, Lord, if you hadn't been too lazy to actually read the other threads instead of prejudging this group of NDN activists for daring to criticize your cult.
End.

In fact, I'm not part of any cult or group, I just enjoy Castaneda as a thinker, and I should imagine I know a great deal more about him than you, what with me being specifically interested in his thinking. But, that's an assumpiton.


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It takes quite a bit of absolutist thinking to say that Your Great Leader just "cant ever be wrong" no matter what.
End.

Castaneda is not my leader.

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No matter what includes him openly admitting being a fraud and laughing for the last two decades of his life at the gullibility of people who believed in him.

End.

Yes, but I never actually said otherwise.


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Like the others say, I refuse to be drawn into a long pointless debate, esp when the person is too lazy to read what's in front of them or even consider evidence.
End.

I enjoyed his work and thought him a brilliant thinker.

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If you want to talk more about your experience with the cult you were part of, you're welcome to. If you don't, I won't be surprised since denial is common for most cult victims.
End.

Well, I was in a cultish group once.

Castaneda never limited my thoughts, that I'm aware of, so I have nothing against him personally.

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Just so you know, so is being victimized by a second or even third cult, even after finally leaving the first one. I strongly urge you to look into counseling, or get online help from cult survivors' groups like Freedom of Mind.
End.

Well, I already am a specialist.

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Or if you want to find out about the issue of this forum instead of giving us shrill patronizing lectures, you're also welcome to stay too.
End.

all ideological structures, and I mean ALL, are formed in the same way, and use similar techniques.

Now, I won't patronise you, but I won't pretend I'm not smart as hell and razor sharp because I am. I am a different proposition all together.

[Most of his childish insults were removed, though his pompous notions about himself were left up, just so it'll be obvious to anyone why it's a waste of time to talk to him.]

Lord, lord, lord...

You can play silly word games if you want. All you've done is make us wonder how your head fits through doors with an ego that size. Esp since it can't be justified. You were part of the Toltec Mystery School cult and just can't admit it, because, after all, it would be a blow to your ego since you believed in an Englishman who pretended to be part of an Indian nation that's been gone for 800 years.

Kind of like if I told you I met the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, but hey, I still think I learned a lot from him.

Never cared much for Marx. Too Eurocentric. A semi good analyst, but terrible when it came to proposing workable solutions.

'Not overly bothered" by exploitation, lies, or racist fantasies of Indians? I suppose all anyone can do for someone so morally callous is pray for them.

My only remaining questions for you is to ask what other cults you were part of, and again urge you to seek counseling so you avoid winding up in any others.

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You were part of the Toltec Mystery School cult
End.

No - I wasn't. Actually, I spent years debunking Kri$ Raphael, arguing with him, pointing out to others what a cultish group it is. You're way off.


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and just can't admit it,
End.

Well, I would if I had. I may have chatted to his wife. That's abotu as far as that goes.

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Never cared much for Marx. Too Eurocentric. A semi good analyst, but terrible when it came to proposing workable solutions.

End.

Well, no one has all the pieces of the pie. My background is Marxist, but my foreground is Deconstruction. I don't need any workable solutions, because for me, the world is perfect, just as it is.

One thing I laugh at with plastic shamans is they always want to change the world - because they love it so much, they want to heal it, make it better, move us all to a higher vibration of tastyness, for the aliens. Funny - I love the Earth truly, just as it is.

Oh, Marx - well - I like a lot of thinkers, and Ilike to adapt what they say, mix, mingle, evolve thoughts. Marx has his ups and downs.

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'Not overly bothered" by exploitation, lies, or racist fantasies of Indians? I suppose all anyone can do for someone so morally callous is pray for them.

End.

Exploitation of Indians is no worse than any of the other things that happen in this amazing world.

Actually, I don't buy that Castaneda exploited Indians at all.

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My only remaining questions for you is to ask what other cults you were part of, and again urge you to seek counseling so you avoid winding up in any others.

End.

My cults are my business, but I;m pretty old and wise now - and you're absoloutely correct in one thing - highly educated people can and do get drawn in to cults. Good insight by you there.

I'm a different proposition all together, big ego or not.

[More childish insults deleted. His displays of invcreible ego left up. For being an educated man he's a slow learner.]