NAFPS Forum

Hi folks.  Thanks for having an open forum where folks can read and even participate.

I'm in that category of pink skinned middle aged female with white privilege.  Grew up working poor in NYC.  Also am a Jew. Also am a lesbian.  Also am a member of Jewish clergy and am studying to become an interfaith minister in addition to being jewish clergy.   Also have, in past, done a bunch of anti racism work and cultural diversity work in NYC (in the 1990s.)  I know I grew up in a racist neighborhood.   I try to stay awake, and unlearn, and learn.  Doing the best I can. All I can do is show up and be real, and listen hard, be honest with myself.  Life goes on. There's lots of opportunities to speak the truth, or be called on my failings.

I work in adult education and workplace vocational preparation, i work with a lot of 'folks of color' with many different strong religious backgrounds; and i work around healthcare issues.  I have definitely seen  appropriation of native culture and religion, and in years of (my) less consciousness I have participated in some of the same that others were leading.   I am determined to be as awake as i can be, and for that reason i thank you again for having an open forum here.

GeologyRocks.

Welcome to the forum. Pretendians and other appropriators often sell fake ceremonies and fake teachings through adult ed programs. Some especially do it to pad their resume at the university level. During the time regular students are away on vacation, many of the universities will let adult ed programs use their classrooms. So the fraud will offer a workshop, alongside the baking and knitting classes, and other things that require no academic experience or certification. Even if no one shows up at the workshop, they will later claim they "Taught at (__prestigious university__)."

thanks, Kathryn, for your reply.
While i have not seen that happen at 'institutions of higher learning', I have seen ritual spiritual leaders from more innovative arms of their religion of origin- (whether jewish, mysical christain, etc)   borrow widely from native tribes and not attribute...or, make up native sounding rituals and SAY they are native in origin - and share them.  The problem i see is the lack of attribution...or the faking it and passing off something as native- when the leader has no right to do either.  I have not personally been part of a native event i had to pay for, though i have purchased native crafts from stores and individuals at powwows in nyc. (Queens, aich in the 1990s.)

it gets me when someone leads a guided visualization for the audience to connect with some animal they feel connection to and then says- whoopee now you have your native american spirit animal!  that is a load of bunk.  but i can say that the use of a 'talking stick' during small group meetings (to get people to shut up and listen to each other with intention and focus)  has become almost part of the culture, i have seen it used in scores of settings without attribution.

disclaimer. i play fipple flutes which were sold to me as native american style flutes.  i love their sound and love to play them, and have never charged money to do so, though i have played in ritual spaces and for healing events.  some of the folk who sell flutes have native sounding names they say were given them by tribally affiliated friends, or names that were self claimed as a logo for their flute sales  (ie , raven flutes or ghost owl flutes or coyote oldman, etc.) .  i don't know what is real or not though the flutemakers  say  they respect the traditions, wish to stay within them, (and tend to be familiar with specific tribal ways) and state clearly they are not native.  some flute makers differentiate the flutes they sell, specifying the tribes they are modeled upon (woodlands or plain style bird, lakota or other, etc.)  Or at least some do and some do not .  Some get challenged a lot for appropriating tribal affectations which are not real; and in the listserve communities i have participated in, those folks can sometimes get pretty challenged publicly.  Mostly they are a bunch of white retired woodworkers who love to make the flute, love to play and share HOW TO make them; and sell them on the side.  Some flutemakers more connection and knowledge than others.  ANd some always donate flutes each year free to the needy and childrens schools and hospitals as a form of give back for the ones they do sell.


i have a few flutes, only one made my a native american (geri littlejohn), the rest made by makers who were clear about their lineages and seemed respectful (as far as i could tell) about traditional origins of the instrument.  it is not all that way of course.  I have read posts  from some who say clearly it is OK to share the instrument if it is used and attributed correctly...and one or two folks claiming to be native  who feel it is entirely inappropriate that whites and other non natives sell, buy or play flutes at all.  my disclaimer is i play them.  and not for profit but for my satisfaction and other's requests.

thanks for hosting the conversation.

Ah the flute it has beautiful music, I have never known the flute to be used in ceremonies
as a sacred object at least in the Lakota way. The flute is always used to court a spouse.
If a man wanted to get married he would use the flute music to get the woman attention.
So how many flute you have is how many men or women you want  ;D
A flute can tell people if your lonely and need someone or if you have heartache.
I gave a flute to friend who was alone for a long time and he is now married.
I guess native look at things different then other people, Happy Hunting

:D

eaarthw7, well then i must want a lot of people, cause i have about 22 flutes from the years i have been playing!!
I get asked to play flutes when folks need to remember something sad; or heal from something. I get asked to play when people in jewish prayer service come to a period of silence, and break the silence- sometimes i play flutes to break the silence and add a vocal flute song. for me my playing flutes (and drums, i play middle eastern and west african drums) is a form of my prayer.

Never used any of the flutes to 'court'- maybe I should have! ;)   Maybe would have had better choices!

I am just now reading An Indigenous People's History of the Unites States (by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz). It is pretty amazing. Dense and scholarly and narrative and readable and eye opening and makes clear good sense. i think i read it recommended on this site.....thanks.

geology rocks. (it does.)

Roxanne is another fraud - posing as Cherokee (she used to claim Cheyenne), and still carries "Ortiz" from her ex-hubby, renowned Pueblo poet Simon Ortiz.

Quote from: geologyrocks on September 28, 2014, 04:24:23 AM
I am just now reading An Indigenous People's History of the Unites States (by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz). It is pretty amazing. Dense and scholarly and narrative and readable and eye opening and makes clear good sense. i think i read it recommended on this site.....thanks.

Quote from: CrystalClear on October 23, 2020, 02:43:56 AM
Roxanne is another fraud - posing as Cherokee (she used to claim Cheyenne), and still carries "Ortiz" from her ex-hubby, renowned Pueblo poet Simon Ortiz.

My bolding. I could not find neither the book nor the author mentioned elsewhere in the forum. So I went ahead and started a new topic:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5492.0
[Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz & "An Indigenous People's History of the Unites States"]