NAFPS Forum

This is going around Facebook. I wonder which John Fire Lame Deer it is from (Sr. or Jr.?), and if you folks would say it is (a) from him and (b) an accurate description? I know in ancient Hawai'i they didn't have locks or keys, but they did have thieves. So ...???

Are We Civilized?

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison.
Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society."
~John (Fire) Lame Deer

I haven't seen or even put through Google what's going around on Facebook or elsewhere on the Internet regarding this quote. However, I found a similar paragraph in a book I own:

«Lame Deer. Seeker of Visions» by John (Fire) Lame Deer and Richard Erdoes. New York: Pocket Books, 1994. Copyright 1972. (First Washington Square Press printing April 1976. First printing of this revised edition October 1994.)

Page 70-71:
«Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can't have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a man was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were too uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man's worth couldn't be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn't cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white man came, and I don't know how we managed to get along without the basic things which, we are told, are absolutely necessary to make a civilized society.»

The quotes are essentially the same, but with different wording. My best guess is that the quote has been re-translated into English from one of the translated versions of this book, quite possibly the German one.

Quote from: Pono Aloha on October 31, 2011, 05:30:39 AM
This is going around Facebook. I wonder which John Fire Lame Deer it is from (Sr. or Jr.?), and if you folks would say it is (a) from him and (b) an accurate description? I know in ancient Hawai'i they didn't have locks or keys, but they did have thieves. So ...???

Are We Civilized?

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison.
Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society."
~John (Fire) Lame Deer

Quote from: Sparks on June 05, 2016, 06:00:36 PM
«Lame Deer. Seeker of Visions» by John (Fire) Lame Deer and Richard Erdoes. New York: Pocket Books, 1994. Copyright 1972. (First Washington Square Press printing April 1976. First printing of this revised edition October 1994.)

I found my version of the book on Amazon. Some pages may be read there. There are 79 customer reviews, most seem to be favorable.

http://www.amazon.com/Lame-Seeker-Visions-Enriched-Classics/dp/0671888021/