NAFPS Forum

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on August 13, 2015, 04:42:28 AM
They are very beautiful and I sometimes find myself almost buying them for a female friend. Then I think about how irritiging it is seeing Dashikis/Dashiki designs or hair Locks worn by non-black people and reconsider lol.

Ikooko Okurin,

Let me start by saying that I know that I am treading on the edge of 'white privilege' here. I would ask you to please look more into traditions of other ethnicities wearing hairstyles very similar, if not structurally the same as, dreadlocks. There are a few! I know that many unaware people have the same attitudes of appropriation towards 'locks as others do towards feather headdresses, so it is a touchy issue.

According to Native-Languages.org they were called "hair rolls" in at least one of the original languages. I've been trying to find out more about these hairstyles, without much luck, but I think I can pin down a few things about them: 1) In the cultures that wore them, they seem to be for men only. 2) At least from the invention of photography to present, there seem to be few people documented wearing them.








Personally, I was inspired by research into the Rasta culture to actively reconnect with my Indigenous roots. So many Rastas seem to have said something along the lines of "You've got to have Roots and Culture. Without them you will be wandering lost in the world."

Quote from: Zhaanpaxe on September 05, 2015, 05:11:25 AM

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on August 13, 2015, 04:42:28 AM
They are very beautiful and I sometimes find myself almost buying them for a female friend. Then I think about how irritiging it is seeing Dashikis/Dashiki designs or hair Locks worn by non-black people and reconsider lol.

Ikooko Okurin,

Let me start by saying that I know that I am treading on the edge of 'white privilege' here. I would ask you to please look more into traditions of other ethnicities wearing hairstyles very similar, if not structurally the same as, dreadlocks. There are a few! I know that many unaware people have the same attitudes of appropriation towards 'locks as others do towards feather headdresses, so it is a touchy issue.

According to Native-Languages.org they were called "hair rolls" in at least one of the original languages. I've been trying to find out more about these hairstyles, without much luck, but I think I can pin down a few things about them: 1) In the cultures that wore them, they seem to be for men only. 2) At least from the invention of photography to present, there seem to be few people documented wearing them.








Personally, I was inspired by research into the Rasta culture to actively reconnect with my Indigenous roots. So many Rastas seem to have said something along the lines of "You've got to have Roots and Culture. Without them you will be wandering lost in the world."

@Zhaanpaxe

That is not what I'm referring to exactly, I'm speaking of 'Locs'(notice in my message I said "hair locks" and not dreadlocks) which is a hair style unique to Black People. All cultures have had neglected/mated hair, first because there were no combs then later when religious sects wanted to prove they were not about vanity in life.

The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"  but it was not a style , they did not have combs. That look is not what people attempt to emulate. How do I know? Because there are no pictures for most of them to copy.  They, like modern American blacks are all imitating Rastas who are imitating the hair styles they saw when visiting Africa.

Many groups in Africa also had locks:  Dogun, Masai, Wolof, Mende, Mandingo , Fulani and many more.  Certain groups of Cush  now known as Ethiopia and not only wore locks but gave birth to the movement that later would be adopted by Rastas when they visited Africa in the 1930s. Indian sadhus have been matting and locking their hair for thousands of years.

American blacks and many of the diaspora who wear "dreaded" or locked hair are emulating the 'dreads ' or locks from the Rastafarians who were inspired by Africa.

There are several movements in Africa given over to locked hair from the Baye Fall and the mouride movement and the Fulani who are believed to be some of the first to ever lock their hair, African locking hair goes back thousands and thousands of years BUT there is a difference between religious locks, "dread" locks and cultivated locs.

RELIGIOUS LOCKS  are hair that is worn a certain way to signify allegiance to a sect of group. Many cultures had this.  Manchurians wore their hair a certain way in China and Chinese Mandarin wore their hair a different way (shaved) one could not copy the other under pain of death.

DREADS  the name is a pejorative.  It was used by whites to describe what they considered the horrible  and ugly nature of natural black hair--unkempt EXCEPT that is not how the hair was in Africa. In Africa, hair was almost always meticulously groomed because the hair had other cultural meanings. It told if someone was married or divorced ow widowed or newly entering puberty, or circumcised, it told of death and was meticulously plaited or sealed with decorative beads and shells and mud.  EVERYTHING meant something.

But this same hair, which often was  taken down, washed and redone in Africa suffered on the Middle Passage slave ships.  When slaves arrived to be sold in the Islands or America, their beautiful coiffed heads were clotted with blood, urine, feces, vomit, sperm and everything else that was a testament to the shame and degradation of enslavement.

Upon looking at the hair, the whites declared it DREADFUL and often all men, women and children were shaved bald.  Later,  women had to wear kerchiefs so whites would not be offended with what to them was so alien and so like their own pubic hair that it only underlined the sexual beast nature of blacks. So dread locks is actually like saying NIGGER. I don't call them dreadlocks. No whites anywhere, under any circumstances save an asylum was trying willingly wearing dreads after around 1500 AD.

Once we begin to actually try to control locks, those are locs that are allowed to grow naturally then at some point are separated into sections.  Black Americans are responsible for the highly groomed and styled form of hair most often seen among young blacks. These  locs (notice the different spelling) are often referred to as Locs and NOT dreads or dread locks. It holds to many blacks that whites and Rastas may have dread locks and the hair may be dreaded, but black Americans invented the intricate patterns and uniform look of the modern locks worn in the States and many parts of the UK. It is this form of "dread lock" that is unique to Black people and it is this form that irritates me a bit seeing on non-blacks. These locks have a parting or sectioning pattern of scallops, diamonds, triangles, brick lay, or free form but when retightening, the hair is returned into concise patterns.  By making the partings uniform, the hair on Black or coiled hair is often uniform, cylindrical and very, very neat. Why would this irritate me? Because it's a unique creation of Black people, that I think belongs to us. When others try to imitate it, it falls very short because it's simply not for their hair and often the people wearing it don't know the history behind it. What's more, quite a few of the people wearing "dreads" whether they are specifically "Locs" or not, who aren't Black(particularly Whites), are in addition wearing some article of African attire or obviously African-American style clothing(which in general would be fine to wear of course) along with it so it's very clear that they are indeed trying to imitate the culture.

So, no it's not simply I think Black people own the idea of "dreads" and get irritated at any and all wearing them who aren't Black. There's a lot more to it than that. I'm well aware of dreads existing in many cultures however this....





Is unique to my people lol. I'll be getting locs myself soon. Sorry for the babbling =P.

Quote from: Zhaanpaxe on September 05, 2015, 05:11:25 AM
Let me start by saying that I know that I am treading on the edge of 'white privilege' here. I would ask you to please look more into traditions of other ethnicities wearing hairstyles very similar, if not structurally the same as, dreadlocks. There are a few!

What "white" culture has historically worn locks?

Ikooko Okurin already covered this well, but a few more thoughts. Most cultures that wear or have worn long hair have at some point braided it. If something happens and you can't unbraid and rebraid your hair,  the roots of most textures of hair will tend to mat, no matter your ethnicity. But this is very different from a cultivated and maintained loc style. Locks take work and maintenance, they are very different from someone who just wasn't able to maintain their hair and wound up with mats.

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"

Actually, they didn't. :) I can't speak for Visigoths and Romans, but the Picts, who are a subset of the broader grouping of the Celts, did not. They have been sometimes depicted that way by Hollywood, but it's as untrue as the Hollywood stereotypes about Natives.

The Fianna lore (the warrior code among the ancient Irish) particularly states that the hair must be neatly and tightly braided, and unbraided and rebraided daily. This would prevent it from forming mats or locks.

Since this is not about Native Jewelry, I'm moving the locks tangent to it's own thread in etc.

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"

No, they didn't. I can't speak for Visigoths and Romans, but the Picts, who are a subset of the broader grouping of the Celts, did not. They have been sometimes depicted that way by Hollywood, but it's as untrue as the Hollywood stereotypes about Natives.

The Romans certainly did not let their hair mat. The WP article displays several photos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb
Among these is not only a comb which is described as "ancient Roman", but another one labled Etruscan. The Etruscans were predecessors of the Romans, and that particular comb dates back to the 7th century BC.
And BTW there are many portraits e.g. on Roman coins: none of the persons has locks or matted hair.

The German language article mentions that the oldest comb in the German language regions was found in a grave in Sweden, it dates back to 2,500 BC. So while the Visigoths aren't mentioned particularly, we may safely assume that as Germanic cultures knew combs as early as that, the Visigoths wouldn't have been left out in passing the info on this useful object. Furthermore, when you look at the WP article on Visigoths, there is a map showing their original homelands prior to their migration. They lived quite near to the land of the former Skyths then, and in the article on combs there is a photo of a Scythic comb from 4th century BC.

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"

Actually, they didn't. :) I can't speak for Visigoths and Romans, but the Picts, who are a subset of the broader grouping of the Celts, did not. They have been sometimes depicted that way by Hollywood, but it's as untrue as the Hollywood stereotypes about Natives.

The Fianna lore (the warrior code among the ancient Irish) particularly states that the hair must be neatly and tightly braided, and unbraided and rebraided daily. This would prevent it from forming mats or locks.

Oh interesting, this I didn't know. Thanks I'll have too look more into it, to think I fell for a false perception of a culture XD. This being the case, it seems to actually weaken many arguments that I hear from others for everyone(in other words White people) having a "right to dread locks".

Quote from: Ingeborg on September 05, 2015, 05:45:49 PM

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"

No, they didn't. I can't speak for Visigoths and Romans, but the Picts, who are a subset of the broader grouping of the Celts, did not. They have been sometimes depicted that way by Hollywood, but it's as untrue as the Hollywood stereotypes about Natives.

The Romans certainly did not let their hair mat. The WP article displays several photos:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb
Among these is not only a comb which is described as "ancient Roman", but another one labled Etruscan. The Etruscans were predecessors of the Romans, and that particular comb dates back to the 7th century BC.
And BTW there are many portraits e.g. on Roman coins: none of the persons has locks or matted hair.

The German language article mentions that the oldest comb in the German language regions was found in a grave in Sweden, it dates back to 2,500 BC. So while the Visigoths aren't mentioned particularly, we may safely assume that as Germanic cultures knew combs as early as that, the Visigoths wouldn't have been left out in passing the info on this useful object. Furthermore, when you look at the WP article on Visigoths, there is a map showing their original homelands prior to their migration. They lived quite near to the land of the former Skyths then, and in the article on combs there is a photo of a Scythic comb from 4th century BC.

Great information, thanks. When doing just research online you find many places claiming that these cultures had dreaded hair. It's  amazing how on even this topic on how a culture wears their hair there is such misinformation.

I just want to point out that many tribes had combs before the settlers arrived. Here in the Pacific Northwest, combs of wood, ivory and shell have been found that predate white contact. SO the no comb statement doesn't fly.

Oh, another thing about the Picts. There are Pictish symbol stones in the North of Scotland with images of combs on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_stone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_and_comb_%28Pictish_symbol%29

You can see the comb at the bottom, in the center, to the left of the mirror.

Quote from: debbieredbear on September 05, 2015, 06:13:54 PM
I just want to point out that many tribes had combs before the settlers arrived. Here in the Pacific Northwest, combs of wood, ivory and shell have been found that predate white contact. SO the no comb statement doesn't fly.

I'd just like to point out that the issue of combs wasn't the main point. The point is that style of "Dread" is not the "Locs" most people are trying to emulate and not what I'm referring to. And not sure what is meant by "So, the no comb statement doesn't fly". Cultures that didn't have combs would often of course have locked up matted hair. It was never stated that some Native tribes didn't have combs, but of the tribes that did have combs did they purposefully practice matting up and locking the hair or was it simply a matter of letting the hair go despite having combs? Was there a regular practice of doing this kind of thing to the hair in those tribes that possessed combs? I doubt it, but won't pretend to know. Either way it's mostly beside the point. The point here is the particular style and maintenance method used by Black people is very different and unique than simply letting the hair lock up as seen in some other cultures. Many people getting Locs are indeed trying to mimic that. Some even going as far to put chemicals in their hair that will make their hair texture mimic afro-hair so that they get a better result lol. But anyway whether or not a culture had combs the main point is the difference in the style/methodology behind the "locked" hair.

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 05:53:19 PM

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:34:14 AM
The Visigoths, Romans, Picts, Celts all had matted hair or what is now termed  "locks"

Actually, they didn't. :) I can't speak for Visigoths and Romans, but the Picts, who are a subset of the broader grouping of the Celts, did not. They have been sometimes depicted that way by Hollywood, but it's as untrue as the Hollywood stereotypes about Natives.

The Fianna lore (the warrior code among the ancient Irish) particularly states that the hair must be neatly and tightly braided, and unbraided and rebraided daily. This would prevent it from forming mats or locks.

Oh interesting, this I didn't know. Thanks I'll have too look more into it, to think I fell for a false perception of a culture XD. This being the case, it seems to actually weaken many arguments that I hear from others for everyone(in other words White people) having a "right to dread locks".

Agreed. White people love to throw around misinformation about ancient cultures to try to hide their misappropriations.

Wow! Lots of activity here.

First please let me say that I intended no offense when using the term 'dreadlocks'. I knew of the colonial origin of the term, but I've also read that some groups of Jamaican Rastas had reclaimed the term using their decolonial language, Iyaric, in the sense of "I wear these locks to demonstrate my dread of the wrath of Jah." I apologize if that was taken any other way.

Ikooko Okurin,

I knew some of this, but not all... obviously! I had honestly never realized that people broke down the categories of locked hair quite so much. In fact I thought that the term "hair locks" was used by those who wanted to move away from the dread connotation for locked styles in general.

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM
What "white" culture has historically worn locks?

I think that you misunderstood me, I could have been clearer. I intended to put across that I am aware that I have 'white privilege', but am hoping not to 'step in it' and make an ass of myself.

However I will say that I have also read those assumptions about various Gaelic/Celtic cultures, but thought that they sounded unlikely.

Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on September 05, 2015, 05:13:41 PM
Ikooko Okurin already covered this well, but a few more thoughts. Most cultures that wear or have worn long hair have at some point braided it. If something happens and you can't unbraid and rebraid your hair,  the roots of most textures of hair will tend to mat, no matter your ethnicity. But this is very different from a cultivated and maintained loc style. Locks take work and maintenance, they are very different from someone who just wasn't able to maintain their hair and wound up with mats.

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
I'd just like to point out that the issue of combs wasn't the main point. The point is that style of "Dread" is not the "Locs" most people are trying to emulate and not what I'm referring to. And not sure what is meant by "So, the no comb statement doesn't fly". Cultures that didn't have combs would often of course have locked up matted hair.

Here I partially disagree with both of you for a couple of reasons:

1. Combs are not necessary to keep straight loose hair untangled. Even without a comb, brushes or fingers can be used to undo tangles. What if you dont have a brush? Please remember that you can use a bundle of brushy grass to make one.



2. Straight hair that is fixed into a ponytail or braid is very unlikely to mat. Think about it: it is fixed at both the scalp and either at one point (ponytail, etc.), or at each plait in the braid plus at the end of the braid. Where is it going to be able to move around enough to knit together? Ropes don't knit into dread-type structures over time, they break in places and fray.

Quote from: Ikooko Okurin on September 05, 2015, 07:05:34 PM
It was never stated that some Native tribes didn't have combs, but of the tribes that did have combs did they purposefully practice matting up and locking the hair or was it simply a matter of letting the hair go despite having combs? Was there a regular practice of doing this kind of thing to the hair in those tribes that possessed combs?

I think there is one geographic group of cultures that did; the deep Southwestern Natives of what is now called the border of Mexico. I can locate photos online of several Quechan-Yuma and O'odham (esp. Pima) gentlemen wearing what look to be cultivated styles that appear repeatedly in their respective tribes. The bottom picture in my first post here shows a fellow known as José Pocati, and there are a few in this series showing how he wears his hair. Apparently the Yuma and Pima men tended to wear a style with loose hair from around the face, back to the crown of the head, with the rest done up into hair-rolls. The hair was grown very long, and to keep it clean and tidy it was wound up on top of the head almost like a Sikh.



Thank you for the constructive discussion, I hope that we can continue.  ;D

Quote from: Zhaanpaxe on September 06, 2015, 04:13:11 AM
Wow! Lots of activity here.

First please let me say that I intended no offense when using the term 'dreadlocks'. I knew of the colonial origin of the term, but I've also read that some groups of Jamaican Rastas had reclaimed the term using their decolonial language, Iyaric, in the sense of "I wear these locks to demonstrate my dread of the wrath of Jah." I apologize if that was taken any other way.

Ikooko Okurin,

I knew some of this, but not all... obviously! I had honestly never realized that people broke down the categories of locked hair quite so much. In fact I thought that the term "hair locks" was used by those who wanted to move away from the dread connotation for locked styles in general.

No worries, I'll just say what I told you in pm, that I'm aware most people don't mean any harm by using the term and simply don't know the history behind it. I just don't personally like using it because I do know what's behind it and I also just don't believe in "reclaiming" negative words meant to demean a people. It's very dumb to me and I mean no disrespect to my Rasta brothers, but really it just is lol. I have the same attitude about other Black people saying nigger and trying to "reclaim" it.

On another note, thank you for the additional information, it certainly is interesting and I will learn more about it. I know my wording certainly suggested it, but I didn't mean to make it like no combs = matted hair 100% of the time and that there was no other method for to maintain the hair lol.

I said "most textures of hair will  mat," not *all* :) 

This is an NDN-owned board. Which peoples' hair is less likely to mat is not theoretical here. :)