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Hey folks! I wanted to post about a man named Octavio Rettig, who has become well known amongst psychedelic academics and nuagers. I think he is well worth a mention here. He is reputed for his work with 5meoDMT, a powerful hallucinogen, in which he provides "sacred and ancient" ceremonies. He claims that he apprenticed under a "Don Pancho" and was taught the ancient rites and rituals of the Seri. He has been spending the past several years working with the Seri people of Mexico in an attempt to treat methamphetamine addiction.

Octavio is well known in the psychedelic scene for being the "5meo guy" who often misrepresents data and scientific information. For example, he frequently makes the claim that bufotenin, when exposed to heat (eg when you smoke it), converts to 5meoDMT. Anyone who knows anything about chemistry or pharmacology knows this isn't true. Furthermore, there was allegedly an open statement online that was given by the Seri people and other indigenous folks of the Sonoran area which demanded that he cease his research and return all of the toad venom (which he harvested from indigenous land without permission). This statement also supposedly declared that the Seri people do NOT endorse Rettig, despite his claims, and that he has no right to represent them or perform ceremonies. The document was taken offline and I have not been able to find it since. This alleged statement is unverified and I don't know if it is legitimate or not.

However, while looking around, I found this "letter of recommendation and support" to Rettig, signed and endorsed by the traditional government of the Seri nation. http://imgur.com/gallery/QnlnpH9

Rough translation of the letter:

QuoteJANUARY 22ND, 2014 PUNTA CUECA, SONORA, NATION COMAC AC, MEXICO.
TO WHOMEVER IT MAY CONCERN:

Throughout this medium we extend a cordial salute and we inform to all the people members of our community of the towns and tribes of the world, that Mr. Dr. Ocatavio Rettig Hinojosa, is the spokesperson of the understanding and knowledge provided by the Ancestral Medicine of the Desert of Sonora, "OTAC", found in the secretion of the glands of the Bufo Alvarius, Toad of the desert of Sonora.

Dr Ocatavio Rettig, with his work within the Seri community with such medicine, since November of 2011, he has brought back the before mention knowledge, which it had been lost for centuries. Since his arrival into our community, he has successfully healed several of the members of our tribe suffering serious problems of addiction to chemical drugs like methamphetamines (crystal) amongst many other physical ailments, proving the curative powers of the before mention substance, endorsing Dr. Octavio Rettig Hinojosa as a responsible, capable and trustworthy who during the 5 months he lived with us and the more than two year of knowing him has showed congruence and human quality.   

Pioneer, researcher and promoter of the rescue of the ancestral technics of purification and cultural affirmation in benefit of the tribes of Sonora, Mexico and the whole planet earth to whom we backup, support and protect due to his rendered services to our community always in an altruistic manner and without perceiving any income, collaborating in the protection, diffusion, preservation and enrichment of our traditions, uses and customs. Promoting a culture of conservation and care of the species Bufo Alvarius, under his care by creating the project OTAC.

Dr. Rettig has brought a new hope for the Seri tribe, helping not only with his medical knowledge but also with economic support  and serving as a bridge so the Seri community could receive support from others.

We certified Doctor Octavio Rettign Hinojosa as a medicine man and the carrier of the message of our tribe to the word.

We publicly acknowledge on the side of our internal authorities the person of Doctor Octavio Rettig, extending this letter of recommendation to be used as he may see fit. Punta Cueca, municipio de Hermosillo, Sonora, Nation Comca ac, January of the current year.

We value and thank the services rendered to the nation Comca ac. reiterating our friendship and compromise to share our intangible and cultural heritage with whomever so wishes to do so.

All be welcome to participate in our millenary wisdom in the hands of our benefactor and friend.

Axatipe, Yooz Quij, mish Masaia

Yours truly : Traditional government of the Seri nation Comca ac, Honorable council of elders, traditional territorial guard and members of the community

Again, I don't know the authenticity of this document. It looks legitimate from the picture, so perhaps he is endorsed by the Seri people--but I feel I am not qualified to make this distinction myself.

Here is a link to the facebook page for his upcoming film: "OTAC The Sacred Ancient Medicine Ceremony"
https://www.facebook.com/OTACtheFILM/info?tab=page_info

QuoteOver the past eight years, Dr. Rettig has been conducting research on the ancient sacred use of 5-MeO-DMT in the Sonora desert. Three years ago, he re-introduced the use of this medicine to the Seri Tribe to successfully treat methamphetamine addicts. He learned the ancient rituals, chants and rites of the Seri tribe and became an apprentice of "Don Pancho," a Seri elder shaman.

By combining the chants he was given as a gift from the Seri people, with the "Sacred Medicine" he created a therapy technique. He now performs this "Ancient Sacred Medicine Ceremony" authorized by the council of elder Seri shamans, to treat addicts, and also to initiate adepts from around the globe into the spiritual realm.

This film narrates and documents the anthropological, ethnomusicological, archeological and pharmacological aspects of Dr. Rettig's fantastic story, and as director Leonardo Bondani has described, "It is also, a journey into the mind and the soul, the search for enlightenment, the human condition...and the fabric of the cosmos."

(quote taken from promotional video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04GFWrl8iA)

I haven't been able to find anything about this "Don Pancho", but I am weary of any kind of nuage claim of apprenticeship or authorization.

Here is a link to a segment done on him by the popular VICE magazine. VICE is extremely sensationalist and for them to report on anyone claiming to have the right to perform ancient ceremonies sends up a huge red flag for me. Disclaimer: this piece is absolutely chock-full of misinformation, though that should hardly be surprising.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOFSX6nezEY&feature=youtu.be

And finally, a link to his facebook: https://www.facebook.com/otac2012
AFAIK, he is pretty open to dialogue and encourages skeptics to contact him.

Thats everything I could I dig up. I've known about Rettig for a while now; like I said his name comes up frequently in psychedelic circles. I don't believe he sells ceremonies or makes a profit (could be wrong), but the fact that he is claiming the right to perform indigenous ceremonies warrants some healthy cynicism. I'll keep looking for information about this "Don Pancho" character, but so far I've found nil. Anyways, despite his bad science, this guy might be legit--I just wanted to bring him up here where you folks with more knowledge/experience could see and judge for yourself.

QuoteWe certified Doctor Octavio Rettign Hinojosa as a medicine man and the carrier of the message of our tribe to the world.

From what I've learned here, this seems extremely unlikely.  ???

Important points are e.g.: does he cash in, and in which countries.


https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=381102988665552&id=304947006281151

A Michael Rice from Ireland announces 'ceremonies' with Rettig this summer, and more later on in Czechia and Slovakia. From further comments, Rettig will also go to London, and has been to Australia in April. He is also actively selling his stuff in California.

This is at least six countries and three continents within some months this year.

QuoteAxatipe, Yooz Quij

Googling these terms, all you get out of the world wide web is two sites... One is Rettig's own, the other is connected to him.
Both present an English text. I somehow doubt the Seri would have conveniently issued such document in English language, instead of Spanish. But publishing a Spanish version of that means: publication in a language understood by the Seri. I may have a dirty mind, but I do wonder whether this is exactly what Rettig seeks to avoid...


Rettig is also asking for donations to do a film. The text reveals his attitudes:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-sacred-ancient-medicine-ceremony

Quote"The Sacred Ancient Medicine Ceremony"
Over the past eight years, Dr. Rettig has been conducting research on the ancient sacred use of 5-MeO-DMT in the Sonora desert. Three years ago, he re-introduced the use of this medicine to the Seri Tribe to successfully treat methamphetamine addicts. He learned the ancient rituals, chants and rites of the Seri tribe and became an apprentice of "Don Pancho," a Seri elder shaman.

By combining the chants he was given as a gift from the Seri people, with the "Sacred Medicine" he created a therapy technique. He now performs this "Ancient Sacred Medicine Ceremony" authorized by the council of elder Seri shamans, to treat addicts, and also to initiate adepts from around the globe into the spiritual realm.

Dr. Rettig has been successfully using this substance in therapy sessions (hundreds of them documented) for thousands of people. He has also used this therapy effectively on crystal methamphetamine addicts where it affects neural receptors. The addicts no longer crave the drug and it opens a spiritual gateway for them.
[...]

It is urgent to preserve the vanishing culture and ancient knowledge that the Seri people have almost forgotten, now alive in just a few shamans who remember how to guide the initiate into the spiritual journey of the soul.
[...]

Dr. Rettig and director Leonardo Bondani were personally invited by the King/President of the Seri tribe to return for the New Year's two day-long celebration on June 30 and July 1, 2014 in Punta Chueca, Sonora Mexico, an autonomous nation (and a closed area to the public, national government, agencies and institutions).

Some of this is racist rhubarb, some of it is rhubarb from a medical point of view, mixed with several Nuage buzzwords, and all of it is constructed to polish the alleged fame of Rettig. One also notices some discrepancies between Rettig's claims to be an "apprentice" and his ignorance about the social structure of the Seri nation - as in: "Their king or president".

We probably want to add to our dictionary "English / New Age":
"Their king/president" -> English: "Well, whatever they happen to call their head honcho - I don't give a flying one in the effin' first place".

So it rather looks Rettig is exploiting Seri knowledge and traditions for his profit, and abuses the Seri nation as a whole.

QuoteDon Pancho, the oldest Seri Shaman who now does The Sacred Ancient Medicine Ceremony in the ancestral spiritual form.

Images and quotes from these Facebook pages. Note that Rettig believes he can now claim anything he wants since his information comes from an "ancestral spiritual form".

https://www.facebook.com/OTACtheFILM/info?tab=page_info
http://m2.facebook.com/OTACtheFILM/photos/a.419762038191677.1073741838.278415132326369/419762054858342/?type=1&source=48&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.419762218191659&__tn__=E

I saw his indigogo page, but somehow I missed his comment about "their king/president". What kind of person who immerses themselves in a culture doesn't even know the proper title for cultural leaders? Someone who clearly couldn't care less about about accurate representation. Rettig seems to be more concerned with convincing folks of his own spiritual/cultural authority than he does about actually learning about said culture.

QuoteBoth present an English text. I somehow doubt the Seri would have conveniently issued such document in English language, instead of Spanish. But publishing a Spanish version of that means: publication in a language understood by the Seri. I may have a dirty mind, but I do wonder whether this is exactly what Rettig seeks to avoid...

The original text was written in Spanish, at least according to this image: http://imgur.com/gallery/QnlnpH9
Not that this makes the document anymore credible...but I don't think it was originally in English. Rettig, iirc, is a native Spanish speaker so I don't think he'd have a difficult time writing up his own letter of approval. Perhaps I also just have a dirty mind that likes to assume the worst.

So the director of his video project is a man named Leonardo Bondani. Here is his twitter page: https://twitter.com/leonardobondani

Here are some of the more shameless and savory tweets:

QuoteWant to have a DMT experience and help a documentary be done? We and the Seri Tribe's chants need your support!

Interested in having a DMT experience with the Seri tribe Shamans? Join us in life time adventure, support our film

Interested in a real DMT shamanic experience with the Seri ? WE ARE CLOSING THE ROOM/HOTEL AVAILABILITY TOMORROW! 

LAST CALL! TODAY- CLOSING RESERVATIONS to a real 5-Meo-DMT shamanic ritual "THE SACRED ANCIENT MEDICINE CEREMONY"

[/b]

And here is an excerpt from the following link: http://2junky.com/video/5274620/dr-octavio-rettig-on-salt-spring-island-adam-healing.html (I didn't even bother watching the video. And just a heads up, I got a lot of pop-ups from this site just as a disclaimer)

QuoteM.D Octavio Rettig is a medical surgeon graduated from the University of Guadalajara specialized in treating addictions. He has been working for over 15 years with traditional medicinal plants recognized as sacred plants or power plants within mesoamerican cultures. He is a spokesman for the message of the councils of elders of indigenous communities in northern Mexico. He has been entrusted by the Seri and Yaqui tribes to communicate their message and spread their traditions and understanding. Dr. Rettig's sessions incorporate ancient healing chants with which the experience with the Bufo Alvarius medicine (toad from the mexican desert of Sonora) achieve much more powerful results.

It seems clear to me that not only are ceremonies openly being sold, but that Rettig claims he speaks for the Seri people while also seemingly under the impression that he knows Seri tradition better than the Seri.

 Hi guys.  After coming across this, & having met, engaged with & been guided through 5meO experiences by Dr. Octavio Rettig numerous times (Ireland); I felt to add my two cents worth..

While I can only speak my own truth from my own experiences,  I must say that Rettig has always struck me as being a man who is walking his path in integrity.  While, I am no expert on anything related to Sonora, I do know that Rettig has official papers from the Council of Elders,Seri Nation as well as UN documentation which is acknowledged & recognised when he travels.  The online open statement declaring that Rettig is NOT endorsed by the Seri people really does sound pretty sketchy to me. Why would the Seri president/king invite Rettig to attend the New Years celebration in Sonora last year, as stated, if they had a problem with him?  I understand that film footage was taken at this time for the docu, & that he was clearly very much in attendance. 

I'm slightly confused Indenborg, -are you saying that you know that King/President is not the accurate term in this case, or that you are speculating, but don't really know?  Also, i'm sorry but I firmly disbelieve claim that he's been actively selling his stuff in Cali, or anywhere. source for this? 

Nor do I believe that he is in it for the purpose of making personal financial gains.  The man strikes me as a genuine, transparent & humble guy with extensive training, driven by a sincere intent to bring healing to the people.

I have come up against many non-indigenous shamans & medicine facilitators whose practise reeks of shameless cultural misappropriation but for me Octavio Rettig is the real McCoy!  I also know scores of people who have had sessions with him, yet I know no one who has less than great things to say about his energy, open heartedness, professionalism & character. 

This is an important site & we need to be vigilant & help spread the word on charlatans & plastic shamans but i'm sure this guy's legit!

PS Praxis - I understand your concerns regarding misrepresenting data & the claim that  bufotenin, when exposed to heat (eg when you smoke it), converts to 5meoDMT; I get that this contradicts all information you're likely to find, however we are talking about a compound which has had so little documented research & it seems to me that much info is merely blindly repeated.  It is my understanding that Rettig has apparently had analytical lab tests carried out which support his claim.

Peace

Stu, you sound like an advertisement for Rettig.  Are you Rettig?  I am just a little suspicious after having been on this site for several years and seeing this play out over and over.

Oh, by the way, it is Ingeborg, not Indenborg.  She doesn't like it when you get her name wrong.

Peace be upon you also.   :) :)

Stu, thanks for adding what you know. I'd like to ask you some more things about your experience.

You say you were "guided through smeo experiences" by Rettig. What exactly does that mean? Were you treated for addiction to methamphetamines? Because that's what both Rettig and Seri elders claim their traditional medicine can do.

I have no problem believing such traditions can cure meth addiction. It's a drug that's ravaged Native people in the US, Latin America, and non-Natives, mostly poor rural whites in the US. Peyote ceremonies have cured or help cure other addictions, as have sweatlodges.

But if you took the traditional medicines with Rettig as some kind of personal search, or worse, idle curiosity, that's deeply disturbing and an abuse and misuse of the medicine. Native ceremonies get badly abused when taken out of their context. It's spiritual tourism and dilettantism of the worst kind. It's equivalent to going through Catholic or Jewish or any other spiritual tradition just because you think "it'd be cool." A Native spiritual experience is not to be sought after like a ski trip to Aspen.

The endorsement of Rettig rings phony in so many ways. An entire people don't give an endorsement. There's no names on the doc, no council or tribal gov't. It's like all the white fantasies of being adopted by a tribe.

Rettig not knowing what Seri leaders are called is telling. Elsewhere he also lumps them in together with Yaqui, an unrelated people culturally. I haven't been able to find any online references to a "Seri king" except in the very first Spanish contact, and in docs on an unrelated Seri people in Asia.

He seems less than serious because of his associations. If he were truly seeking to integrate Seri medicine into the treatment of drug addictions, he'd be at academic and medical conferences. Instead he runs off to speak to the flakes at Burning Man. He runs around Europe talking to groups of people who think enlightenment can come from a chemical quick fix.

He also presents himself as a healer, the toad prophet. And performs ceremonies like this.
http://physicswikis.com/meth_molecule/Dr__Octavio_Rettig_on_Salt_Spring_Island/27098/

And apparently people go to him just to get high, as this guy described, who later added valium to the experience.
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64587

This reporter also got high with him, just for the experience.
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/the-toad-prophet-t104773.html
A number of things are obvious from that video. Rettig is actually endorsed by one elder, Don Pancho. And the elder and other Seris seems unaware of how Rettig is marketing himself and the medicine and ceremonies. The Seris are extremely isolated, and don't know Rettig's mostly talking to recreational drug users rather than medical professionals.

Another non-Native doctor, a gynecologist Gerardo Sandoval Isaacs, claims to be Rettig's true mentor and himself a ceremony performer.
http://www.lorenzohagerty.com/blog/september-21-2014-peoples-climate-march-nyc/

It's also worth noting that Rettig elsewhere is listed as a surgeon, not a pharmacologist or any other specialist in medicinal research.

Quote from: Autumn on July 02, 2015, 01:44:51 PM
Stu, you sound like an advertisement for Rettig.  Are you Rettig?  I am just a little suspicious after having been on this site for several years and seeing this play out over and over.

Oh, by the way, it is Ingeborg, not Indenborg.  She doesn't like it when you get her name wrong.

Peace be upon you also.   :) :)

I can assure you on my honour, I am not Rettig! I am usually quite a silent presence online, I simply wanted to share my gut feelings on this matter, from my experiences & those of others I know.   
Ooops, soz Ingeborg!!   ;)


Educatedindian - I have a history of substance dependency and much of the focus of his work in Ireland has focused primarily on addiction, largely opiate/opioid addiction.   

I understand he is currently seeking to establish an official research institute, involving academics, therapists, social&medical care specialists, etc ...

Quote from: Stu on July 02, 2015, 03:11:31 PM
...  I simply wanted to share my gut feelings on this matter, from my experiences & those of others I know.

Well, 'gut feeling' may be an inappropriate advisor, because the gut tends to be full of it....

QuoteI have a history of substance dependency and much of the focus of his work in Ireland has focused primarily on addiction, largely opiate/opioid addiction.

Ever thought of you might be swapping one high for another? And one with less - errr: distributors on the market, so prices will be conveniently high exactly for whom?

QuoteI understand he is currently seeking to establish an official research institute, involving academics, therapists, social&medical care specialists, etc ...

A claim like this proves nothing at all. There's billions of quack methods out there and many quacks and charlatans boast their own 'research institutes', even involving academics etc. If this happens to establish anything, it's rather that persons quite willing to be corrupted come in all shades, with a multitude of educational backgrounds, and with a very generous helping of unethical behaviour.

Your reply to educatedindian is rather disappointing, though, because you didn't address most of his questions.

He assures you on his honor... ONLINE. Well, I'm sold. Who wants to go get a beer?

I just came across this post in researching the toad medicine.

I have had the privilege of working with this medicine and  Dr Octavio Rettig at a sacred site in Ireland last weekend.

It was the most powerful, healing experience of my life. It was tough and painful too, more than I can even begin to articulate as anyone who has worked with these medicines know, the vocabulary of our reality does not suffice. It is not in any way comparable to plant medicines I have tried.

I want to post because my experience of Octavio was very positive. I am qualified psychotherapist and well aware of ethical practices. My sense of Octavio is an extremely focused man who has done much work on himself, and who believes passionately in the power of the healing of the medicine and its necessity. A warrior.  As everyone on this path knows only  the only guide is your own personal experience.
My impression of Octavio is that his own experience is guiding him very strongly, therefore he does not worry too much about external validation ( ie websites like this). He is doing what he know is right.

That said the medicine is extremely powerful, at one stage I was overwhelmed with fear that I would never be the same again. The psyche is fragile and if you take the medicine then you are responsible for the consequences. Its your choice.

Octavio is offering a gift that is not for everyone. He is not forcing it on anyone.

If you don't like or feel drawn to this medicine, then don't do it. Don't spread fear about something you know nothing about. I'll send some photos of us working together if people doubt my validity.

Gratitude to Octavio. Peace

Quote from: rjc on June 12, 2017, 11:29:02 AM
I just came across this post in researching the toad medicine.

I have had the privilege of working with this medicine and  Dr Octavio Rettig at a sacred site in Ireland last weekend.

It was the most powerful, healing experience of my life. It was tough and painful too, more than I can even begin to articulate as anyone who has worked with these medicines know, the vocabulary of our reality does not suffice. It is not in any way comparable to plant medicines I have tried.

I want to post because my experience of Octavio was very positive. I am qualified psychotherapist and well aware of ethical practices. My sense of Octavio is an extremely focused man who has done much work on himself, and who believes passionately in the power of the healing of the medicine and its necessity. A warrior.  As everyone on this path knows only the only guide is your own personal experience.
My impression of Octavio is that his own experience is guiding him very strongly, therefore he does not worry too much about external validation ( ie websites like this). He is doing what he know is right.

That said the medicine is extremely powerful, at one stage I was overwhelmed with fear that I would never be the same again. The psyche is fragile and if you take the medicine then you are responsible for the consequences. Its your choice.

Octavio is offering a gift that is not for everyone. He is not forcing it on anyone.

If you don't like or feel drawn to this medicine, then don't do it. Don't spread fear about something you know nothing about. I'll send some photos of us working together if people doubt my validity.

Gratitude to Octavio. Peace

Actually Mr. Coffey, I'd prefer you post about your so far unproven claim of being a "qualified psychotherapist." The term is meaningless, at least in the US,, where literally anyone can call themselves a therapist, psychotherapist, or counselor. There's no law or licensing stopping anyone. Your lack of understanding or misuse of even basic psychology disturbs me:

"My impression of Octavio is that his own experience is guiding him very strongly, therefore he does not worry too much about external validation." The terms for that are extreme narcissism, megalomania, or even sociopathy.

And that's not even true. You ignore massive evidence right in front of you. Rettig has weaved a series of enormously elaborate lies to try to validate his claims.

But they are also extremely clumsy and obvious falsehoods, inventing a nonexistent "Seri king," claiming endorsement by a whole people like something out of Hollywood stereotypes, lumping unrelated peoples together, and carefully avoiding including any actual names. Whatever your (so far unnamed) credentials or experiences are, it doesn't say much about your critical or research abilities that you fell for something so obvious it doesn't stand up to a 10 minute google search.

Or perhaps you knew or suspected and just did not care. We can't help but notice how often you use the words I, my, and mine. You felt your own perceived or imagined needs outweighed ethics and basic morality, and endorsed falsehoods that harm an entire people as well as the psychotherapy profession. You said Rettig is:

"A warrior.  As everyone on this path knows only the only guide is your own personal experience."

That pure Nuage gibberish ripped off from Castaneda and said by every self centered "seeker" who can't see past their own nose, other than their endless gaze at themselves in the mirror. Your, and my, and everyone's only guides should be what is right for all, not right for "me me me, screw everyone else."

Rettig is no healer nor therapist nor serious researcher. He is a profiteer and peddler to the desperate as well as to anyone just seeking another recreational high. Rob Coffey, you say you are a therapist, but endorsing him potentially harms your patients and own reputation.

Quote from: rjc on June 12, 2017, 11:29:02 AM
I just came across this post in researching the toad medicine.

I have had the privilege of working with this medicine and  Dr Octavio Rettig at a sacred site in Ireland last weekend.

You brought those poor toads to the cold climate of Ireland, and made them suffer, so you could indulge your ridiculous Castaneda fantasies? That's sick, man. Sick. I hope the great Toad Spirit pees on your head chakra.

Clearly I'm dealing with [childish personal attack].

I don't know Octavio personally. I'm sure he is a flawed human being like the rest of us. I understand he is a somewhat controversial figure and yes probably quite driven in his approach. I don't think his approach will suit everyone, its true. All I'm saying is that  my personal experience of him and of this medicine were positive. Other people may have other opinions, but that's ok. I don't claim he's perfect.
I accept your right to disagree with me.

Quote
"qualified psychotherapist." The term is meaningless, at least in the US

The US is not the centre of the universe, you must be [juvenile crack]. I clearly stated I was in Ireland.
With your [childish ignorant attack] how am I supposed to take you seriously when you talk about the internal politics of the seri people? Does googling make you some sort of expert?

I'll give you one piece of advice for free-where your strongest resistances are point to where you have most to learn. Maybe one day  I'll meet you guys hanging out in Rishikesh singing kirtan [more childishness]

Quote
Extreme narcissism

My experience of extreme narcissism, is some one who reacts with anger to anyone who disagrees with them, like for example your president or [yet more childishness].

Quote

You brought those poor toads to the cold climate of Ireland, and made them suffer,

Fair point.  Hilarious though. Of course no one brought the toad anywhere, this clearly shows [yet more personal attacks].
But at least we agree on something [irrelevant nonsense]