NAFPS Forum

Greetings.
Who am I?
Musician, 12 steps, I spend as much time outside in nature as much as possible. Many years ago a good friend invited me to "Sweat." He has family and friends at Rosebud. My life has not been the same since  :)


Why am I here?
I discovered this website a while back when my partner started to take workshops with an Australian Shaman.
I was initially excited for her; the prospect of her connecting with nature on a deeper level, and slowing down seemed harmless.
When I found out the expense, and after meeting some of the people involved I bristled! For 2 grand you could become a shaman in a year!?
I always thought shamans were from Siberia!?
After she was given some direction to practice a 4 directions exercise, is when I started to look a little bit more closely and critically.
It was a mish-mosh of Lakota, Arc-Angel, Peruvian, Castenada blah blah blah.
So I ended up at this site, and found that the world was full of fakers. Mis-using and mis-representing native traditions of many countries to make money on those seeking (or lost) who had money.
Some of these people had pipes, and tied prayer ties etc.
I asked a gentleman in this group where he got his pipe? He replied he bought it!
I knew then.
Luckily, a year later, she is done with group. Not because of my doing, but true colors came shining through. I am sure though that the arguments I posed to her got her thinking.
I got a lot of those ideas from here.
For that I am thankful.  :)

Welcome to the site! Glad your partner is no longer associated with that group.

Hi Geodude,

Glad to hear she got out of that mess unscathed. Would you feel comfortable sharing the name of this group on this site? Or maybe they're already on here?

Welcome!

Odelle

hello GeoDude

What does your girlfiend say aobut all this money spent ? Was it worth it ? Best ask after a year or two. Sometimes time gives us perspective.

yes - "mish-mosh" is what so very many of the New Age "shamans" and "lightworkers" etc come up with.  Much of it comes from stuff they've read in books or scan-read in the media. I am utterly dismayed at some of the weird beliefs us Westerners come up with.

Mind you I can't talk. I'm an English man, now in BC.  My first introduction to "shamanism" was back in England when another English man took me on a journey to the upper and lower worlds to the sound of drumming. I don't believe he had any idea what he was doing. But I had an extraordinary and very vivid experience. My only experience. I found out later that this man was preaching all sorts of rubbish, and, along with others, making bizarre and unwarranted claims for his "teaching".  It's one thing when a group of people, like me, go round to someone's house and pay a small amount of money to experience something different or creative. It's entirely another when someone mish-moshes all sorts of supposedly "Shamanistic" ideas and markets it with Native connections trumped up and ropes people into high-priced, medically-unfounded courses. Often an inner group develops who by now have paid a great deal of money indeed and are fully invested in insisting on bizarre beliefs. Helpful the teaching have been to these individuals but I'm starting to suspect that a large percentage of people are being led well astray.  It's not the rich, who can afford it,  that is proving so worrisome but those who don't have so much money and who are then persuaded into thinking that the "shaman" is an exception in some way.

I have a lot of respect for traditions, shamanic traditions too, around the world. There's a huge difference between traditional beliefs and new-found belief systems in Western-style "shamans". Traditions often ancient, have the support of ancestors and a lot of living people as an internconnected group. I first learnt about Shamanism at University in England in my Study Of Religion degree. One day, perhaps, a First Nation friend will take pity on me and show me some real tradition in Shamanism.

cheers, Jask

Since you probably have to go to Russia to learn shamanism
Native people in the americas don't have shamans

Quote from: earthw7 on January 20, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Since you probably have to go to Russia to learn shamanism
Native people in the americas don't have shamans

There are plenty of native "Shamanic Practitioners" in North America.  A google search has revealed hundreds. There is even a magazine called A JOURNAL OF CONTEMPORARY SHAMANISM.

Thanks Debbie and Odelle for the welcome.  :)
My computer was on the fritz! Glad to be back.

Quote from: Odelle on December 01, 2013, 07:22:11 PM
Would you feel comfortable sharing the name of this group on this site? Or maybe they're already on here?

I will, but it was this woman's devotees who where specifically culturally appropriating, and misrepresenting themselves to me, So I don't want to falsely accuse her directly.
http://www.shamanicgrace.com

Quote from: Jask on January 20, 2014, 07:05:12 AM
hello GeoDude

What does your girlfiend say aobut all this money spent ? Was it worth it ? Best ask after a year or two. Sometimes time gives us perspective.

yes - "mish-mosh" is what so very many of the New Age "shamans" and "lightworkers" etc come up with.  Much of it comes from stuff they've read in books or scan-read in the media. I am utterly dismayed at some of the weird beliefs us Westerners come up with.

Mind you I can't talk. I'm an English man, now in BC.  My first introduction to "shamanism" was back in England when another English man took me on a journey to the upper and lower worlds to the sound of drumming. I don't believe he had any idea what he was doing. But I had an extraordinary and very vivid experience. My only experience. I found out later that this man was preaching all sorts of rubbish, and, along with others, making bizarre and unwarranted claims for his "teaching".  It's one thing when a group of people, like me, go round to someone's house and pay a small amount of money to experience something different or creative. It's entirely another when someone mish-moshes all sorts of supposedly "Shamanistic" ideas and markets it with Native connections trumped up and ropes people into high-priced, medically-unfounded courses. Often an inner group develops who by now have paid a great deal of money indeed and are fully invested in insisting on bizarre beliefs. Helpful the teaching have been to these individuals but I'm starting to suspect that a large percentage of people are being led well astray.  It's not the rich, who can afford it,  that is proving so worrisome but those who don't have so much money and who are then persuaded into thinking that the "shaman" is an exception in some way.

I have a lot of respect for traditions, shamanic traditions too, around the world. There's a huge difference between traditional beliefs and new-found belief systems in Western-style "shamans". Traditions often ancient, have the support of ancestors and a lot of living people as an internconnected group. I first learnt about Shamanism at University in England in my Study Of Religion degree. One day, perhaps, a First Nation friend will take pity on me and show me some real tradition in Shamanism.

cheers, Jask

I believe she is a solid, good person. BUT she is searching and feels like she has to spend money....money somehow makes it "legitimate" ... or valid. It's the quick fix.
She has also been to Tom Brown's place in NJ.
Most of the people she has been involved with are VERY charismatic. They are all VERY overly complimentary to her "you have a gift"
"you are amazing..." "I can see you have many spirit guides around you...." etc.
It feeds the ego really, and if you are looking for something, its easy to get sucked in.
Now, I am not looking for something, and got suspicious of these people right off the rip.
I don't need to rely on spirit to tell, I am a good read of people....I have a highly acute BS detector. And it went off in the presence of these people, and most of what they said, both through my first hand dealings, and through her accounts. They're not that different from stereo-typical used car salesmen.
I went to a few of the gatherings/chanellings, and it was a poor thespian display really.  ::)
I felt sadness in my heart.
These things are really marketed well...quite clever actually.
Ostensibly it is marketed to those that have money. I questioned this "What about the indigent...Don't they have the same opportunities to become a "shaman"?

...."We pray for them and send them love and light."
was the answer I got.

I'm glad she's not involved anymore, but she is still looking.

Shaman has become a brand. It was used by anthropologist as a blanket term for spiritual indigenous people all around the world.
But it does have a catchiness to it, an enigmatic quality. Who wouldn't love that title!? It seems everyones a Shaman or into shamanism these days.
I have met a Mongolian Shaman. He was really funny (in a good way). His people did this throat singing that was amazing!
He was very kind and warm to me.
The experience left me not wanting to be a shaman, but to just be kind like he and his people were....
...didn't cost me a dime

Quote from: Jask on January 21, 2014, 01:35:38 AM

Quote from: earthw7 on January 20, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Since you probably have to go to Russia to learn shamanism
Native people in the americas don't have shamans

There are plenty of native "Shamanic Practitioners" in North America.  A google search has revealed hundreds. There is even a magazine called A JOURNAL OF CONTEMPORARY SHAMANISM.

Jask, you are being rude here. Maybe this was unintentional. I suggest you read through this http://www.newagefraud.org/ and then also take the time to read through some forum threads, learn about where you are.

Quote from: earthw7 on January 20, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Since you probably have to go to Russia to learn shamanism
Native people in the americas don't have shamans

earthw7 I`m very sorry to be rude. Absolutely not my intention. I`m sorry.

Thank you Piff for letting me know this and reminding me of where I am.

Quote from: earthw7 on January 20, 2014, 03:50:21 PM
Since you probably have to go to Russia to learn shamanism
Native people in the americas don't have shamans

earthw7 thank you for this thread post re Native American Spirituality.
I can see I've  been very ignorant and I'm sorry for just dashing off a dumb reply like that.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3588.0

its ok I sometime wonder about the people who use our way of life and then
change it we are trying so hard to protect our native way against these people
who claim to be shamans from our people when we do not have shamans and if someone claims that
you can almost see the fakes from the word shaman people who claim to be from our nations
we don't pay to pray

@GeoDude:

Checked out the site. Whew! Maybe some of your healthy skepticism will rub off on your friend?

Quote from: Odelle on February 05, 2014, 12:35:36 AM
@GeoDude:

Checked out the site. Whew! Maybe some of your healthy skepticism will rub off on your friend?

It's tough! We had a pretty good disagreement about it a few nights ago...I just don't want her to waste her money, or even be deluded by these people. It's total ego fest!

I have tried to be kind and present it to her but it is hard for her to hear it from me. In my own way I understand; it's not always easy
to get constructive criticism from her....boyfriend/girlfriend...wife/husband...Sometimes it's better heard from a friend....

And though I like her friends, they are on the twinkie side of the coin.

It's frustrating to say the least. I have given her links to well researched and presented articles on Castenada, Harner, et al. which prove their deceitful and false presentation... this only seems to fan the flames.

The term "Shaman" has become a brand. It has been marketed very cleverly. Not unlike the many of the other "products"  and marketing we are bombarded with on a daily basis everywhere we turn.

I don't believe these people (the sellers and buyers) are "bad" or nefarious people, but truly lost.

But to lie and misrepresent yourself, make up fantasies, steal from and misrepresent/genericise other cultures' to promote your "brand" even if your intentions are good, IS bad and nefarious.

I'm just dis-heartened that the woman I love dearly, who did step back from this, is now considering attending a newly offered workshop with these people. Just because the woman had a "dream/vision" of this new and improved healing technique and now she's offering it for sale to teach and train you.......

Ugh

You have my sympathies. She probably is well aware of your dislike of these kind of activities and it's just easier to come up with a reason that allows her to dismiss your opinion. Maybe you'd want to actually introduce her to some things from this site?

From where I stand, I have kind of two problems with the kind of groups your gf is involved in:

1) It's a made-up thing at best, a scam at worst. The link you showed led me to a site where the woman was selling some sort of tai ch'i thing, angels wings, fake Hindu things, channeling (which I think is a western spiritualist thing?) and fake NDN things? Even if any of this stuff was in any way bona fide for any of these traditions, severed from the tradition they belong to and mixed in with each other like that, how can any of them provide any authentic use to anybody? She might as well promote a belief system based on Star Wars--at least that would be honest.

2) It's racist and colonialist. Even though, it's not *meant to be most of the time, it still is. That bothers me. The totally made up stuff that is somehow re-branded as from a real tradition, is offensive because it is demeaning and objectifying to the people whose tradition is being so mocked, but even worse is the stuff actually has some shreds of truth to it, especially when such things are secret and for insiders-eyes only. One of the most frustrating experiences I can think of is explaining why secret NDN or whatever stuff has a right to remain a secret--it's such a foreign concept to so many people from non-Native cultures. We all more or less accept the right someone has to change clothes or bathe in private, but performing spiritual, sacred and deeply personal acts are somehow public property--or is that just when it's a minority culture doing it?

It sounds like for your gf, (1) isn't something she can see right now, so maybe she'd be more sympathetic to hearing how this group is (2)?

*Plenty of times, folks seem to actually mean it. Look how quick people are to react to accusations that they are unintentionally appropriating somebody's culture with straight up knee-jerk, race-baiting.

Hello Geodude,

I am sorry to hear about your situation.

There is something enchanting about these things, I suppose. The teacher had a vision - she introduces to realms unknown. Maybe it is comparable to falling in love with someone that you hardly know: a lot of expectations, and not able to listen to reason.

I had a beloved many years ago, that got into a rather closed-off religious group that worked with light, arch angels, and a vision of what was wrong with the world and how to heal it. That was after she and I had parted already.

Just as with falling in love, I hope that your girlfriend can learn how to handle or satisfy her longing without getting stuck in a situation that she does not see a way out of.
Maybe it would help you - just for yourself - to see her fascination apart from what it is that she is fascinated by. Just now and then, for a few minutes.