NAFPS Forum

Dear NAFPS members,

I am studying with Scarlet Kinney at The Standing Bear Center, which has been the subject of one of your threads, and I have been following that exchange on your website. I was interested in writing a response, but I discovered that I couldn't because I lacked information. As a white person of European ethnic background, it honestly never occurred to me that Native Americans would object to white people attempting to learn Native American spiritual practices. I would therefore like to pose a few questions. If you would be kind enough to respond, I would be very grateful.
First, why is it considered wrong for Native Americans to teach white people, and for those white people to then teach other white people? I'm not sure that I understand this. From my perspective, if it has to do with the desire to increase respect for traditions, it would make sense to extend knowledge of the traditions to a broader group.
Second, what is the objection to charging for such teaching? Is there some specific reason why this is unacceptable to Native Americans? Does the objection extend to bartering arrangements as well?
Third, why is the term 'shaman' offensive? I understood it to be a Siberian term that has been applied to a general set of spiritual and healing practices found in various forms all over the world, and given the universality of those practices, is there a better term?
And finally, why is it upsetting when predominantly white people claim to have Native American ancestors? Why would making such a claim be considered an indicator of racism?
These were the main questions that arose for me on reading through the various posts. I think that it was hard for me to make sense of what was said because those of you who are used to participating in this forum operate under a set of assumptions with which I'm unfamiliar. I thank you in advance for any help you can give me in better understanding these issues.

                                                      Sincerely,

                                                      Nancy Rehm

Quote
First, why is it considered wrong for Native Americans to teach white people, and for those white people to then teach other white people? I'm not sure that I understand this. From my perspective, if it has to do with the desire to increase respect for traditions, it would make sense to extend knowledge of the traditions to a broader group.

When I was in school, they gave us n interesting lesson.
 In the first part of the lesson, the teacher told all of us at once the same piece of information. We were all told to write it down.
The second part of the lesson, the teacher went to the first person in the first row, and quietly told him a piece of information. Then to tell the person behind him, then to write it down. Each person then was to pass on the information to the next person and so on around the classroom.

At the end of all this, we were to compare.
In the first part, we all had the same identical information written down.
However, in the second part, the information was altered as it passed from person to person to person.  The last person's paper bore little relation to the first persons. The little errors had accumulated as it went around the class.

 In a like way, people learning traditions then passing them on ithemselves will cause changes in what is taught.  People learn for different motives, and have differing capabilities to teach.  We do not all perceive that which we see.
For example:
In the following passge, count the number of 'F".s


FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE
SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTI
FIC STUDY COMBINED WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS...





Scroll down when you have your answer.










How many did you count?
4 is average....
5 is good...
6 is however the correct answer....


Part of the problem is that traditions normally take years if not decades to learn correctly.They are passed down generationally. That is why they are called 'traditions' Unless something is truly learned, and not just getting 88% out of a 100 on a quiz, you have not learned it. You may have been taught, but you have not learned.

QuoteAmerican spiritual practices. I would therefore like to pose a few questions. If you would be kind enough to respond, I would be very grateful.

Second, what is the objection to charging for such teaching? Is there some specific reason why this is unacceptable to Native Americans? Does the objection extend to bartering arrangements as well?

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Catholic church requires Nuns, Priests etc, to pay to learn about Jesus.
I don't believe you have to pay tuition to become a Rabbi.
I don't think you have to pay to become a member of most traditional religions.

Quote
Third, why is the term 'shaman' offensive? I understood it to be a Siberian term that has been applied to a general set of spiritual and healing practices found in various forms all over the world, and given the universality of those practices, is there a better term?

I think the answer to that is that in most cultures, an elder or religious person teacher etc is looked upon with respect.
Calling a Native teacher a Shaman is about the same as calling the Pope a Shaman. If it is ok in one context to refer to anyone in one way, it should be ok to refer to all of them the same way.
Now I will acknowledge that Catholicism is not based on Animism but is a monotheistic religion but I believe my argumnts still hold water. It's still a respect for the position.
And although I forgot to bring this up already in answer to part one of your question. By calling someone a Shaman in Native America is a fine example of how, by mis-teaching, the tradions, the traditions get corrupted. There are no Shamans in Native American culture, but already many people erroneously believe there are.

 That's it for me, others may have a different take on it.
  So have a nice weekend.

Aside for the many years it takes for a Traditional Medicine Person to learn and each Nation has it's own traditions. There is a question of language. They are Traditionally in the language of the Nation.  How distorted does this become when superfically put into English by persons that are not maybe even qualified to teach. You do not even know if they have all the correct "information".  What's the purpose? frederica

Let me clear up a couple of points here.

First, I do not present what I'm teaching as specifically Native American. Yes,  I had a Native American teacher for three years, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm teaching Native American material. I also studied for five years with a Rinzai Zen master, but that doesn't make me Japanese. I do incorporate some of what I learned from him into my way of life, and into my teaching approach, but that doesn't mean I'm teaching Rinzai Zen, either.

Regarding the question of whether or not nuns and priests pay for their training- I was raised Catholic, so know a little about it. Historically, nuns going into convent offered the equivalent of a dowry to the convent, and I believe the same was true of brothers and priests. Not sure how that works in today's world. Priests and ministers are financially supported by their congregations and/or the Church, which is in turn financially supported by its members.

Regarding the use of the term shaman: I know that many people don't know the difference between Native American medicine people and shamans, but I do.  What I'm teaching is specifically shamanic, not specifically Native American. I do, however, use a "form" or structure for teaching that I learned from my Native American teacher, as well as ways of communicating with animal spirits, etc.

I do not teach any Native American prayers, songs or ceremonies. Any songs I sing or ceremonies I perform are my own.

Power Animal retrievals have a deep psychological benefit for those receiving them, as do soul retrievals. My work explores the psychological realities of the level of the medicine wheel I work with as a mandala. The circle is a universal symbol for wholeness. It does not belong only to Native Americans.

Have any of you considered that perhaps there are levels of meaning and psychological reality to be found in the medicine wheel that Native Americans may not recognize, but which are nevertheless there? Or that perhaps knowledge of the levels of the medicine wheel I'm working with as a mandala could actually be of benefit to people, including Native Americans?

Finally, and this hasn't been brought up here, but I think it would be helpful to think about the following things: The earth supports and nurtures all things equally, including white people.  Animal spirits, as far as I know, belong to themselves, and to  earth or sky, but not to individuals or particular cultural groups, and are just as likely to come to a white woman who perhaps achieved a transcendent state during a traumatic event, as to a Native American vision seeker.

QuoteHave any of you considered that perhaps there are levels of meaning and psychological reality to be found in the medicine wheel that Native Americans may not recognize, but which are nevertheless there? Or that perhaps knowledge of the levels of the medicine wheel I'm working with as a mandala could actually be of benefit to people, including Native Americans?

Oh dear. Your arrogance is once again breath-taking.

Ms. Kinley – I am European and so I am looking at all this from a non-Native perspective. First, I am very sorry to hear about your accident! I understand that those kind of traumas can change your road in life and make you realize what is important or not.

You´re presenting us with a lot of details about what you do and what you experience. And those experiences are true to you, no doubt about it. But as I see it, what this discussion is really about is the core values such as respect, empathy, consideration, humility etc.  When you ask people in here to really listen – I think that´s EXACTLY what they do. They listen to what´s between the words. If I understand it right, that´s the way Native people have always listened.
 
If I may take the example that Barnaby already addressed in the previous post – I have no doubt in my mind that whatever has been handed down to Native people by their Ancestors, is exactly what they need to keep their societies and people balanced and healthy. No more, no less. When I am listening to what you said in that statement, I can hear you saying that the Spirit world of different Native cultures is not wise enough to give them what they need. Therefore a white woman with no connection to any Native community must tell them how to figure out something they have not understood during thousands of years of practicing that spirituality?

My assumption is that people here on the board don´t need a lot of details and information or another ten posts about your past, but are rather waiting for a sign of respect. You use that word quite a lot but a word means nothing unless it is connected to action. And Al has already explained what it takes to show respect in this case.

Just a few thoughts from my side since I think this discussion has less to do with details and more to do with values. There are so many ways to show respect to Mother Earth and to help other people find their selfworth without doing things that offend other people.

How do you know the difference between stealing a tradition and blundering upon it?  

I do distant teaching about "Finding Your Animal Teachers", have a website also.  I generally tell people that 'power', 'totem' animals are reserved terms for specific traditions.  I prefer 'animal teachers', since animals by themselves teach people things.  I don't do shamanic journeys, etc.  I just tell people to keep a nature journal, etc.  I teach from a science point of view, but include various cultural traditions regarding animals.

I do encourage people to expand their relations with animals to include fish, reptiles, insects, etc.

I am concerned if I step over a line or something.  This discussion has been confusing to me.  Don't know if my brain is on the friz.

Virginia,,
I think there is a vast difference in the idea of animals as teachers and the nuage bs about animal "totems." My dogs constantly teach me new things. In fact, I tell people my totem animal is the pomerainian. LOL! My oldest one, a new mama, teaches me to stop and smell everything, to sleep when you're tired, eat when you're hungry and feircly protect your own. :) All animals, insects etc can teach a person somethings.

Scarlet, you really need to understand that a nedicine wheel is a calendar. That's it. The one most white people, particularly women for whatever reason, was invented by two frauds. VIncent LaDuke aka Sun Bear, who was Indian but a fraud no less, added the animal toems to the different months and called it "earth astrology." He had a white partner who probably added all the JUngian stuff. She was a New York business woman when they met. I have friends who say when she met LaDuke, she saw dollar signs.

 The other person who promoted it, before LaDuke, is a man of German Heritage, claiming to be Crow, who blasphened the Northern Cheyenne beliefs in a book called "Seven Arrows." If you should happened to have read that book, consider that the Northern Cheyenne people have continually denounced that book and said it perverts their religion. Oh, yeah, the author's name is Chuck Storm, he calles himself Heyemyhost (sp?) Storm, we call him "Heywhatever" Storm.  So all your psychological reality of the medicine wheel is pretty much made up. Not by you. But by frauds.

So my question to you is why do you want to learn from frauds? Why teach something that is fraud based? And while I am at it, what is with white people that they go after and follow the guy or gal that brags up a storm and uses "I" ,"me" ,"mine" every other word? The real medicine people are humble. The ones who know, don't talk much. The ones who know nothing, brag. And real medicine people take years to learn. At least a couple of decades. At least. The person I go to when I need help, he has been learning 30+ years. And he still refers to others as knowing way more than he does. He calls then the real medicine people.

In response to the question , in the first post , asking why it is offensive to charge;

As far as I know , all the major religions avoid charging for Spiritual teachings. I suspect one reason for this is because these Spiritual teachings are largely about social values . Expecting to be paid for teaching basic social values such as the ten commandments or values such as respect, kindness and honesty , would be a bit like expecting your 3 year old, to pay you with their toys,for teaching them not to hit other kids . It is
just our duty as human beings , to do what we can to assist other human beings to be good, and not hurt themselves or each other.

It is only the New Age brand of Spirituality that seems to have little intrest in the teachings of morality , found in every other religion , and goes straight for the more sensational personal empowerment and enrichment stuff . That is probably one reason why New Age Spirituality so often gets treated with so little respect . It is all about self improvement , personal "healing", but
often the only improvement visible to the community is in peoples fantasy life . I guess people looking for psychological entertainment and an adventure in personal discovery see no problem in paying for it.

The problem is , for people who believe in a Higher Power , God , Great Spirit , Creator , Angels Ancestors or some other form of beneficial Spirit Helpers , it seems exceedingly arrogant to imagine we ,as human beings have any control over these Sacred forces . They are much larger than
ourselves, they only act in our lives when they have a real job to do ,and they do not show up for appointments . No one has any right to charge an admission fee, to some other person , to have a relationship with these Higher Powers. ?

If a real relationship is formed between a person and a Higher Power , that relationship will have positive and practical benefits to the whole community . ? That is the pay back .

It is very important that whoever is acting as a Spiritual guide , is an honest, ethical Spiritualy mature person . Money , power , and the prestige of guruship attract exactly the opposite type of people , and tend to bend even those who are good . When Spiritual leaders have a life long relationship with their community ,there are some natural checks and balances which help keep these leaders honest .

Most organized religions that maintain a Church , and a ministery , do need money to do this , but from what I understand , ? this money is raised through voluntary donations , from Church members who can afford to do this . Nuns entering a convent bring their dowery , but it must
be remembered that the convent will be supplying those nuns with food , clothing and lodging the rest of their lives, so expecting people to arrive with whatever worldy sustenance they may have , is not charging for teaching , but preparation for a life long union with the Church .

I doubt any Church would turn someone away from Sunday service , or needing to come in off the street to pray , or from speaking with the minister, if they were not a member , or were a member, but could not, or would not , donate .

Within traditional Native communities I think it is a similar system .

Considering that non native religions have enough respect for these Higher Powers to not expect people to pay to pray , it seems really disrespectful that non native people would not have as much respect for Native traditions , and instead would think it was OK to market Native Spiritual traditions , like they are no more than entertainment .

One thing I have noticed is some of what is said about payment / no payment , in Native traditions sometimes seems a bit contradictory . It is said there is no payment but a gift of tobacco , but then it is also said people should give something as a donation , and money is good too , because people need money for things that cannot be traded for ? .

Someone who knows more than me , might be able to clarify this , but from what I can piece together , there seems to be a slightly different expectaion depending on what type of help is received . Requesting doctoring or maybe wanting to improve your personal luck , is a bit different than if the assistance is more on the ministering side , such as learning from a
Spiritual role model and maintaining traditional community Spiritual ceremonies . ?

Ministering seems to be more a tobacco gift sort of thing , but for something on the doctoring side it seems courteous that some form of contribution , in barter , or money , will some day be made , if the help works . But it is more a show of gratitude , like buying groceries and leaving a gift with a friend if they have let you stay at their house . I have never seen any set payment or haggling over a price before hand ? .

Probably this is not much different than the way non native doctors worked in a small community a hundred years ago . If someone was hurt , the doctor helped them . Sometimes they got paid , sometimes they just got a few eggs , and sometimes they got nothing . ? But no decent doctor in a small community would leave someone with a broken leg because they might not pay .

Another problem with someone charging money, is that Spiritual traditions are owned collectively by all Native people , and the majority of Native people feel it is really degrading and disrespectful to commercialize them .

I guess some people just do not care ? . That is why the word "theft " and "rape " are often used ? to describe this experience of forced cultural "sharing". Repeatedly putting other people through an experience ,that feels like this much of a violation , when they over and over again cry out, NO , and STOP , is not a way any real Spiritual person would act . Sharing what is Sacred in your life , with someone this arrogant and insensitive can be very dangerous !

That was very well written.
I couldn't have said it better.

QuoteSpiritual traditions are owned collectively by all Native people

I would add that ALL spiritual traditions are owned collectively by ALL people, the world over. ? If this is not so, then the above quoted statement becomes a racist remark.... "Not them, (non-Native), only me and those like me,(Native). ? Spirituality, itself, however, cannot be OWNED by anyone. ?

Just as the many tribes, bands and nations have various cultural ways of expressing spirituality, as well as a variety in their traditions, so too, do the people of the world. ? The common thread is Spirituality. ?

"I would add that ALL spiritual traditions are owned collectively by ALL people, the world over."

That's the kind of join-hands-and-sing "Kum Bay Yah" statement that sounds good but just isn't true.

Does the Nation of Islam own Jewish traditions? Does the Aryan Nation (yes, they claim to be a church) own Black Baptist churches or Rasta and Voodoo traditions?

The opposite is sure not true. No anti-racist wants anything to do with the AN or NOI their beliefs. Their hatred is not something I "own", am part of, or am responsible for in any way.

What you also don't seem to understand is Native traditions of ownership say certain things which whites/Europeans/westerners might see as intangible are considered collective property in the sense that the originators have power and responsibility over them. So some traditions/ceremonies/practices are tribally owned, some are clan-owned, and some are even owned by particular extended families.

"If this is not so, then the above quoted statement becomes a racist remark"

Nonsense, Moma P is no racist. But your statement that everybody owns every spiritual tradition...well.

The logical outcome of that is Spiritual Colonialism or Spiritual Imperialism. After all, if everybody owns every spiritual tradition then each is supposedly free to abuse, lie, distort, make a buck off of, or even use to exploit and oppress others using any spiritual tradition as their justification.

What we're saying is the utter opposite, which is both logical and far more ethical: People who originate a spiritual tradition own it. Outsiders have no say in it and should have enough ethics, morality, and just plain old decency to respect that.  

QuoteThat's the kind of join-hands-and-sing "Kum Bay Yah" statement that sounds good but just isn't true.

Okay, but then....no one can say that the N/A traditions are owned collectively. ? The Cree don't follow/own the traditions of the Cherokee, the Haida don't follow/own the traditions of the Lakota.....etc. ?

QuoteWhat you also don't seem to understand is Native traditions of ownership say certain things which whites/Europeans/westerners might see as intangible are considered collective property in the sense that the originators have power and responsibility over them. So some traditions/ceremonies/practices are tribally owned, some are clan-owned, and some are even owned by particular extended families.

Oh, I DO understand this, and the same thing applies to traditions the world over. ?

QuoteNonsense, Moma P is no racist.

Of course not. ? My apologies. ? I did not mean for it to sound like I said she was. ? I simply referred to the statement. ? I said

Quote"If this is not so, then..." ?

In essence I am agreeing with you and Miss Moma. ? My argument was only with that particular statement. ?  I am very sure that Miss Moma meant no racism.... but saying

Quote"Spiritual traditions are owned collectively by all Native people"

is a

Quote"Not them, (non-Native), only me and those like me,(Native)",

statement. Our common thread is still, spirituality. ?