NAFPS Forum

Hello,

I'm looking for in about the so-called "Mayan Elder", Hunbatz Men.
I know some people who have been fooled by this guy. I'm looking
for info to debunk him.


Thanks,

Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future
http://johnnyasia.info


I found this info:

http://faculty.smu.edu/dfreidel/ANTH3334_Fall/PDFs/030_ReligionDissection.pdf

Movie: Incidents of Travel at
Chichen Itza


Points to remember:
* The film follows Quetzil Castañeda through the
archaeological site of Chichen Itza and Maya town of Piste

•The site attracts New Agers and both foreign and local tourists, including the descendants of the Maya builders of the site

•The local Maya of Piste "invade??? the site to sell souvenirs and make a living.




Hunbatz Men, a self-proclaimed Maya shaman, conducts tours of Chichen Itza and other Maya sites for foreigners wishing to learn about Maya spiritualism. His ideas are not those of traditional Maya, simply typical New Age spiritualism using Maya words.



"My ancestors have ancient knowledge about the Itzas-those who built Chichen Itza. It is said they came from the North, but north of Chichen Itza is the sea-only one day's walk! It is said that WATER ATE THE BIG STONE OF KNOWLEDGE. I believe what my ancestors say so we were probably originally part of Atlantis, and came here when it sank. Many went to other places like Egypt. The Olmecs were living here when the Itzais came. It was the Olmecs who gave us the name MAYA???. – HUNBATZ MEN


Feathered Serpent was a god of Venus as Evening Star
Witnessing the Spring Equinox at Chichen Itza

•Traditional Maya cannot perform their rites at Chichen
Itza as this is forbidden by the government as the site is a public park.

•New Agers flout the laws and perform rites with no basis in •traditional Maya beliefs. (The ritual we saw in the temple atop the pyramid derives a lot from Tibetan customs. There was nothing in there remotely Maya.)


•The New Age ritual was to inaugurate a new period of love and understanding – the Age of Aquarius. Archaeology and history tell us that the temple was actually the site of sacrificial rituals to the Feathered Serpent, a god associated not just with creation but with bloody warfare. So why do New Agers believe charlatans like Hunbatz Men and ignore the real information on Chichen Itza?

Hi Johnnyasia and welcome !
Looks like you already found information that is detailed and authoritive .

This person has been mentioned a few times already . If you do a search on the word Hunbatz from the main index page you will find all the threads . Below are 2 links with the most detailed info  ;

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=130.msg610#msg610
« Reply #3 educatedindian

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=361.msg1568#msg1568    

« Reply #3 educatedindian

Whoever he really is , he looks to be a busy guy . He has at least one book , a video , a Cosmic Mystery School that claims to have been started through the vision and direction of Hunbatz Men ;

http://www.cosmicmysteries.com/

"

QuoteDear Solar Brother/Sister:

Congratulations!

You've entered the Cosmic Mysteries School!!"

"You're about to have an experience unlike any you've had before.  Let yourself go.  Enter into another dimensional reality - a dimension of Cosmic proportions.  But one cut into bites that you can eat and swallow. "

I guess most New Age seekers would be quite uncomfortable with something of cosmic porportions threatening to swallow their all important egos .

http://www.cosmicmysteries.com/student1.htm

Prices start as low as $9.95/month or $99.95/year and includes a personal quartz crystal which has been blessed in sacred ceremony at a sacred pyramid site in Mexico  , up to the delux

Level Gold

which includes

QuoteWeekly email lessons, monthly newsletter, monthly CD, monthly DVD, weekly coaching
sessions to accelerate your advancement, 6 healing sessions, all seminars included, an opportunity to participate in a trip to a sacred site in the USA for ceremonial teachings, and an opportunity to participate in a spiritual adventure in Mexico to receive private group ceremonial instruction with our Mayan elder Hunbatz Men at a sacred pyramidal site. $499.95/month or $4999.95/year.  Included at this level is your personal red headband for sacred ceremony which is traditionally used by the Maya in Mexico.

QuoteThe Cosmic Mysteries School was started through the vision and direction of Hunbatz Men, our Mayan Elder and Teacher. The purpose of the school is to offer to the public essential information and knowledge at this time of great cleansing and healing.

Though this school is supposedly started by Hunbatz Men it looks to be run by Patricia Morris Cardona, and Daniel Cardona,who mention studying with a Swami and South American persons I have never heard of . They do mention studying with North American Pa'Ris'Ha, a Cherokee Elder.; Eagle Man, Oglala Sioux Elder; and Amylee, a Medicine Woman of the Oglala Sioux.

Pa'Ris'ha
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=289.msg1222#msg1222    

Threre is also 3 threads in NAFPS on Ed Mcgaa AKA "Eagleman"

QuoteHUNBATZ MEN: BIOGRAPHY

For many years Hunbatz Men has been devoted to revive the wisdom and culture of the ancient Mayas.  He is an authentic Maya, born in Wenkal, Yucatan, Mexico, and was raised to be a shaman, a holy man, since the age of one.  He is a respected ceremonial leader as well as a Mayan Daykeeper- ( con... )

Hunbatz Men has widely lectured throughout North and South America and Europe.  His lectures include topics like: Mayan mathematics, astrology, and philosophy; the letters "T", "O", and "G: as the origin of humanity; Mayan sexual education, social organization, and ceremonial centers; Kundalini Maya; sacred symbols of Tamuanchan; the 1992 Sun Walk from Alaska to Mexico City; new commercial ventures that will be available to Native Americans and other minorities in the United States; and the importance of communicating the Native American thought and its dissemination throughout the world.  (con ...)

( my bold type)

Um .... He lectures on Mayan sexual education , and "Kundalini Maya" ?  Does anyone know if this sound like something the Maya really did , and would go around giving lectures on ? Maybe he just needs something to keep people awake when he is doing a lecture on the letters  "T" , "O" and "G" .  LOL

http://www.indigokinder.de/die_indigo_kinder_mexico05_engl.htm

QuoteSacred Journey September 2005:
In September 2005 we will connect with many Light Beings in many sacred spots, temples, pyramids. We will connect with the God Chac, the most important archetypal Star Elder in Mayan Cosmology, with Chacua, his female counterpart, to balance the divine female and male Qualities in us. The Moon Goddess Ixchel will invite us too to connect with her, she is the mate of Izamna, one of the highest Mayan Gods. They gave birth to the 4 directions! In ceremonies, channelings, rituals, STAR WITH XAMUK´U dances and meditations we will connect with these high Light Beings and the energetic realms they represent.

We are being guided to explore our relationship and commune with this powerful Star Elder and with Chacua. Working with the  amplification of crystal skulls and other sacred objects while following the guidance of Spirit, we will perform ceremony  on Chac's altars at the sites of Kabah, Mayapan, Chichen Itza, Uxmal, Chicanna and Calakmul during the time of the Vernal  Equinox 2005. Star Johnsen Moser will guide us while working with her crystal skulls and the ancient Tibetan Grandmother Crystal Skull that Carolina will bring to Mexico.

QuoteSeptember 21:
Vernal Equinox Celebration at the big pyramid in Chichen Itza, where over 80.000 come together to celebrate the descend of the sacred snake - We will reunite here with Don Hunbatz Men and a big group of South American Elders to celebrate this event; Hotel Playa del Carmen

Quote"on special occasions ceremonies will be guided by: Don Pablo Chuc and Don Hunbatz Men"

QuoteRates: Indication: 12 days - ca. $ 1880 in a Double; $ 2400 single

Theres lots more on the net ... talk of cosmic winds , magnetic centers , learning to see in other dimensions , Hunbatz Men says we are all Quetzalcoatl or Kukulcan ... Doing a search on some of the names mentioned brings up more and more stuff , and other peoples questionable claims and "teachings" , and "sacred" tourism . 

Would any "real" Mayan Spiritual leader would be so actively involved in selling ceremonies , teachings , or "sacred" objects ? I don't know anything about Mayan traditions , and present day Mayan culture , but I really doubt what is advertised here has anything to do with it . In North American traditions it is pretty basic knowledge that anyone advertising and trying to sell Spiritual experience not trustworthy . 

I know a person that got involved with a South American charlatan and they were convinced it was the real thing because local people came and participated . As the information Johnnyasia  found mentions the locals selling souveniers to tourists , it occurs to me a likely explaination is locals might be paid to participate in New Age "ceremonies" , so it looks "real" for the tourists .     

From the comments in the 2 NAFPS threads I linked to at the begining , it sounds like Al ( educatedindian) knows more about this guys background , so hopefully he can give you some more information .

Hi!
I'm Jaime and I live in Tucson, Arizona

Debunking Hunbatz Men should not be a very difficult thing to do!

Have you heard his interview on Prophecy Keepers – he's the featured creature on Prophecy Keepers radio the radio that's always about to go under unless you act now and send them lots of money!

http://www.prophecykeepers.com/hunbatz-men.html

In the Old interviews
http://www.prophecykeepers.com/hunbatzmen.html
Robert GhostWolf arranged this interview

The site says:
"Hunbatz Men is a "Daykeeper" of the Lower or "Itza" Maya, the equivalent of a king of one of the three Maya Kingdoms.???

He thinks he's a King, he associates with well known frauds, not just Slick Bobby but Red Elk, Blue Otter and the fraud with my name Jaimie O Perez, he doesn't know anything about the Maya but he knows everything about Theosophy ....
I think it's safe to assume he's a big fraud.

There was a speaker at UofA about two years ago at the museum who addressed the issue of Mexican-Americans looking for their roots and the concept of Atzlan. He talked about the big increase frauds who claim to know something about Mayan culture and how they try to peddle New Age concepts as Mayan spiritual beliefs to Mexican-American people hoping to re-connect with their indigenous roots. He said that when Mexican-Americans can't access legit Mayan spiritual leaders they turn to frauds who tell them things that sound true to them like the Mayan prophesies and crap like you hear on Art Bell's radio show.  I can't remember his name, but ol' Hunbatz was right on the top of his list.  He said that it's highly unlikely to find person of Mayan descent who can speak authoritatively about Mayan spiritual beliefs, but that there are many, many middle class Mexican men pretending to be Maya spiritual leaders in order to make money.  There are actually more Mexican men engaging in fraud and ripping off Mexican-Americans than there Caucasians ripping off Caucasians.  It's a huge problem here in Arizona. A legit Mayan spiritual leader wouldn't travel around the United States alone making radio appearances, he would be needed in his community. 

Just off the top of my head this guy comes off like a real fraud. You should be able to show that all his information is second hand and comes from modern New Age books.

He seems to have read a lot of Blavatsky since he's talking about magnetic points moving to "la India??? (This comes from Theosophy).  He can't focus on one topic.
He's all over the map talking about elders from Venezuala and Columbia and he mentions Lemuria and Atlantis - this comes from Blavatsky's Theosophy written in the 20th century.
http://www.answers.com/topic/lemuria-continent
If I wanted to debunk him I'd start by showing that he's just quoting books written in the 20th century.

If you speak Spanish, it might be easier try to contact people with legit ties to Mayan elders.

Jaime Perez (not the fraud)

I'm a year late on this post.

If you search for "Star Moser" you'll find that Hun Batz Men is closely affiliated with her. They are not only friends, but Star takes groups of people to see Hun Batz for rituals.

Star also, visited the Cahokia mounds in Illinois one year, and after one visit decided those mounds were Mayan. She argued with the people at the museum over it, by telling them they were not of the Mississipian indians, but were Mayan because they looked like the pyramids in the Yucatan.

After that, she continued to draw so much attention that year to these mounds, she got Hun Batz and Don Alejandro Cirillo to come to the US and deem those mounds as Mayan. Then she claimed that Hun Batz told her that she was in control of the mounds, and that she was the authority on them. She then opened herself a mystery school based on Cahokia. Now what she teaches I would not know.

You can see on her site if you search her name with Cahokia. She does her crystal skull ceremonies up on the mounds.

Hun Batz is unfortunately a liar, who takes advantage of Star who I consider an old hippie new ager. He has her thinking he's a genuine teacher and elder. She hosts him at her home all of the time and has people come pay to listen to him spout Mayan teachings. I know he is a fake because I have been to Guatemala and the people there say he's not day keeper.

I cannot give too much info regarding this, but I do know that when he was at the farm where this woman Star lived and she had hun batz staying there, a woman came to one of these teachings and later on Hun batz was picking up on her. He later paid her ticket to fly down to Merida and meet him. She said once she got to his house everything turned badly. Turns out he was only interested in one thing, and that he had promised to make her a mayan priestess and teach her all these secrets. Turns out he was a regular man, who drank way too much and beat his dogs badly. She said she waited for him to fall asleep and took off for the air port and flew herself home. Bad bad, situation, and no one should believe in this guy. I should start a separate thread about how Star believes she's in control of the Cahokia mounds. Last time I spoke to her, back in 1999 she said she wanted a mystery school for the Snake Mounds which are located in Iowa I believe. Or Ohio. Sorry.

From our old friends at Debunking Debunkersrule

-----------------------------
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Debunking_debunkersrule/message/172
To all those who question Hunbatz Men's authenticity - he's generally
considered to be a big fraud by legitimate, serious people in the
Aztlanista/Brown power movement. Only fringe lunatics promote him as
a spiritual leader.

I've been told that Hunbatz Men's real name is Cesar Mena Toto, that
he's Mexican and that he doesn't speak Mayan, and barely speaks any
other languages. I don't know if this information is accurate or
not, but I've heard it from several sources. I also heard he can't
enter the United States and has to stay in Mexico or Guatemala and
conduct his crystal skull ceremonies. Chichen Itza is just a tourist
trap. It's fake. It was created by anthropologists. It's the perfect
place for this fake shame-on to make his money. He has no formal
training whatsoever with any legitimate Mayan spiritual teachers and
can't possibly be considered to belong to any authentic day keeper
lineage. It`s pretty well known that his `knowledge' comes from Jose
Arguelles.

I checked out all their websites and I've concluded that the people
involved with the Gathering of One Global Eden event are basically
repeating everything that Arguelles invented.

In the mid 1980s, Hunbatz Men started out his career as a plastic
medicine man doing a version of the "dreamspell teachings" made
popular with Anglos Arguelles.

Wikipedia has a (surprisingly) good account of the criticism of
Arguelles:

"Although Argüelles states that his tools and calendar are clearly
not a Mayan calendar, much criticism of it focuses on the fact that
his works remain completely unsupported by any professional Mayanist
scholar[citation needed]. Amongst many criticisms leveled at it, it
is pointed out that the interpretation merely co-opts an ancient
tradition by recasting it in New Age terms, unknown, unused and
undocumented among the Maya. Many of Dreamspell's influences come
from non-Mayan sources, such as the I Ching and pop psychology
[citation needed]. What's more, Argüelles' calendar is based on a
different day-count than the traditional Mayan calendar. As
mathematician Michael Finley notes:

"Since the 365 day Maya haab makes no provision for leap years, its
starting date in the Gregorian Calendar advances by one day every
four years. The beginning of Arguelles' year is fixed to July 26.
Thus his count of days departs from the haab as it was known to Maya
scribes before the Spanish conquest. Arguelles claims that the
Thirteen Moon Calendar is synchronized with the calendar round.
Clearly, it is not."[1]
His calendar is also not correctly synchronized with that observed by
the Maya. For example, in the traditional count January 1, 2005 is 5
Muluk, while in the Dreamspell it is 2 Etznab.

Argüelles countered this criticism by stating that his calendar
is "correct and biologically accurate...for the whole planet", and
that he is the "heir of the legacy of Pacal Votan and the instrument
of his prophecy, Telektonon". [1] Argüelles is now one of several
individuals who have contributed to the spread of Mayanism, a
collection of beliefs based on metaphysical speculation about the
ancient Maya."

Hunbatz and.other frauds such as Aluna Joy Yaxkin immediately cashed
in on the popularity of the neo-Mayanist daykeeper groups with New
Age Anglos.

Hunbatz appeared on Prophesy Keepers radio and on the Art Bell show,
which should tell you something. The "Mayan calendar movement" (a.k.a
Dreamspell) , may be wildly popular with the UFO obsessed the Art
Bell fans, but it is a pseudo-tradition. It follows a false
daycount, and has incorporated bizarre New Age concepts such as
Atlantis and wild tales about alien encounters, it can only be
destructive towards any legitimate attempts at a Mayan cultural
revival.

Arguelles is also the creator of the "harmonic convergence" and the
idea that a cataclysm will take place on or about the year 2012. The
ideas expressed by the "Gathering of One Global Eden Event" folks
sound like they come directly from this guy. (Wikipedia says that
his interpretation of Maya cosmology is held as completely unfounded
by Mayanist scholarship)

Arguelles has met with Mayan groups and they rejected
his "dreamspelling" .

Dr. Michael Coe, a professor of anthropology at Yale and a specialist
in Mayan culture, dismissed Dr. Arguelles's predictions as ''totally
crackpot.'


There's a discussion about his new age crackpot ideas in this forum

http://forums.tortuga.com/viewtopic.php?
t=362&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There's a complicated debate on these pages:

http://alignment2012.com/debate2001.html

Here's a New York Times article about Arguelles invention of
the "Harmonic Convergence" (note the similarity to his ideas and the
Global Eden people)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?
res=9B0DE5D8173EF932A2575BC0A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

The Don't pay to pray site has a couple of books on the subject:

Claiming Knowledge: Strategies of Epistemology from Theosophy to the
New Age
By Olav Hammer
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nl26tCsGE5UC&pg=RA1-PA247&lpg=RA1-
PA247&dq=Arguelles+Mayan+rejected&source=web&ots=98R1ozFTNb&sig=yAQme3
iPOr5DDbYDOUaPnlL9YLA&hl=en

I've also heard several scholars on the subject claim that the whole
Mayan calendar hype was invented by Christian evangelicals who were
only interested in converting the ignorant savages to Christianity by
scaring them with apocalyptic tales like the ones in the Bible
focused to environmental concerns. I don't have a source, but I'll
post one if I find it.


There's also an intense Mayan Calendar debunk on YouTube from Matterik

What I think about the Mayan calendar and the New Age gurus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtGPTxLoK6Q

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie"
value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NtGPTxLoK6Q&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param
name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param
name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed
src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NtGPTxLoK6Q&hl=en&fs=1"
type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always"
allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If you've got a minute, join, rate high and mark as your favorite and
the word gets out to the real ignorant savages on YouTube.

Jaime

Following up what Jaime says, I found a tour company running one of HM's crystal skulls trips where the operator has the name Carlos Mena Toto.
http://www.themayas.com.mx/WEB%20de%20Calaberas/cosmic_trinity.htm
HM's name is listed separately. You do have to send the deposit for the trip to Mena, and it's deposited to his account in Miami. I don't know much about how tour cos operate. Is the deposit always sent to the tour oprator direct, or to the ones the tour is arranged for? But it seems to me he wouldn't make a clumsy mistake like putting his real name down there on the same page as the fake one.

Also of interest is that they are promoting the last Indiana Jones movie as a good source on the crystal skulls.

A quote from that link on Jose Areguelles:

"Perhaps in response to critics who have pointed out the obscurity of his correlation, Arguelles has changed his explanation of the origin of the Dreamspell count more than once. Initially, he seems to have presented Dreamspell as simply the "correct" version of the ancient Measoamerican calendar, presumably used throughout the Maya zone. Later, he suggested that the difference between the Quiche and Dreamspell counts reflects differences between Maya tradtions in highland Guatemala and the Yucatan. Elsewhere, he has claimed that his count was a post-Conquest revision of the Yucatecan tradition by the Chilam Balam. Most recently, he has taken credit for the revision himself??? (http://members.shaw.ca/mjfinley/arguelles.html).


Some good points from the link to the debate over Calleman's inventing a phony version of the Mayan calendar.

"It is clear that [Calleman's] book is not an attempt to reconstruct the Maya tradition around the Long Count calendar, although Calleman uses various arguments based on Mayan ideas to support his adaptation. And as long as one makes this disclaimer, then readers will not be misled into thinking that what is presented is truly Mayan. However, the book vacillates between giving both impressions and so has an identity crisis of sorts."

"....other New Age writers on Mayan topics have invented their own systems and promoted them as a new revelation or somehow better than the authentic Mayan system.... Calleman's date, on the other hand, is simply Calleman's date; there is no reason to think of it as a new and improved date, unless you're willing to disregard the Maya. Thus, this is not Calleman's end-date vs Jenkins' end-date. It is Calleman vs authentic Mayan tradition. What reason can there be for revising authentic Mayan tradition?....

Since the 1980s there has been a trend in New Age writing to invent new terms, devise new systems with combined elements of various traditions, and so on. The fallacy of this is that it doesn't get us any closer to the perennial wisdom that we seek to embrace. The irony is that "New" Age ideas really strive to tap into a knowledge that is old, ancient, eternal, perennial. So, any work to recover wisdom cannot be about the promotion of personal systems that are perhaps "new," but really have no connection with the deep reservoir of perennial wisdom. Calleman's date is "new" and may therefore appeal to seekers requiring frequent injections of newness, but this need is more a sympton of the problems of modernity than a solution to them."

There is indeed a massiv "war" on who has the right date - which is ... anyway it is crap
Which is actually the date the REAL mayan are counting on? Is there any information out?

Quote from: aya on February 17, 2012, 01:17:51 PM
There is indeed a massiv "war" on who has the right date - which is ... anyway it is crap
Which is actually the date the REAL mayan are counting on? Is there any information out?

If you're talking about the long count, it's just archeologist.

If you're talking about the Mayans today, only a few track the calendar, which usually just go by the 365 day calendar. Few just go as far as the katun part of the calendar.

the typical fight on the right date occurs on the Tzolkin and the calendar round which is the tzolkin and the haab together. This is where all the guys try to be "right"
what I mean is, if there any known tribe or person who still maintains these calenders in a traditional sense?

Quote from: aya on February 19, 2012, 01:08:15 PM
the typical fight on the right date occurs on the Tzolkin and the calendar round which is the tzolkin and the haab together. This is where all the guys try to be "right"
what I mean is, if there any known tribe or person who still maintains these calenders in a traditional sense?

Yes, some Mayan communities still use them, well few elderly people do. The only ones I know are in Guatemala. They have different names for them since Tzolkin and Haab are archeologist terms for the calendar systems systems.

Here is great info by anthropologist John Hoopes on the new age Mayan-cult which names many frauds including Cesar Mena Toto/Hunbatz Men, a name given by Jose Arguellas. A great sumary line:"Mayanism provides an ongoing foundation for the invention of sacred tradition and the emergence of new religious movements in the ongoing quest for meaning, control, and personal success."
Here's the main article:     http://www.academia.edu/2174047/Mayanism_Comes_of_New_Age