NAFPS Forum

http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/25014/Article.aspx

As this is a Cherokee issue, it is not my place to comment further.

But I will note that the Cherokee leadership, like that of all other eastern peoples, will need to come up with some good solutions, or the frauds will find fertile ground to continue to operate.

Quotewill need to come up with some good solutions

What "soutions" would you propose EPG?

 Interesting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?

Rattlebone said

QuoteInteresting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?

I think I know what EPG is getting at.  I think he's talking about the issue of Tribes ( in this case Cherokee ) somehow integrating descendents, which is something that he's brought up in past threads.

I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody
(Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place.  It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.

Quote from: BlackWolf on June 25, 2010, 02:10:18 AM
Rattlebone said

QuoteInteresting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?

I think I know what EPG is getting at.  I think he's talking about the issue of Tribes ( in this case Cherokee ) somehow integrating descendents, which is something that he's brought up in past threads.

I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody
(Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place.  It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.

I don't really think it's a fixable situation because most can't prove they really are descendants in the first place. Most probably really are not and just think they are.

I think the best job and most feasible thing to do in order to remedy the situation is what the CNO is doing with it's satellite communities.

It allows them in, and makes an NDN community from that, and yet keeps those who are enrolled in charge.

I would think that is something both socially and politically a good idea for NDN country in general.

Quote from: BlackWolf on June 25, 2010, 02:10:18 AM

I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody (Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place.  It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.

Blackwolf, that's not my position nor my argument. In the east, PODIA do represent a vulnerable population for the fraudsters to operate, and I have met Cherokee with higher bq and better training who are not Federally enrolled.

On the Aztlan mailing list, I just read some correspondence between academics who were taken in by a new age book on Cherokee astronomy, and the CNO had to straighten the situation out.

Again, I am not Cherokee, nor of Cherokee descent, and it is not up to me to comment further than to point out that either right now and in the future these are questions which every nation will have to come up with some answers to.

Quote from: Rattlebone on June 25, 2010, 07:05:06 AM
I don't really think it's a fixable situation because most can't prove they really are descendants in the first place. Most probably really are not and just think they are.

True, but often they have descent from another people, and their ancestors just claimed it was Cherokee because either the Cherokee were more acceptable socially, or they just did not know.

In some cases they do have descent, and high bq.

Quote from: Rattlebone on June 25, 2010, 07:05:06 AM
I think the best job and most feasible thing to do in order to remedy the situation is what the CNO is doing with it's satellite communities.

It allows them in, and makes an NDN community from that, and yet keeps those who are enrolled in charge.

I would think that is something both socially and politically a good idea for NDN country in general.

Certainly the CNO's solution will be looked at by other nations to see how it works and to see if it may be used by them.

E.P. Grondine said

QuoteIn some cases they do have descent and high bq.

QuoteI have met Cherokee with higher bq and better training who are not Federally enrolled.

Sorry EPG, thats just wrong.
Anybody that knows anything about Cherokees knows that BQ was not an issue.  It was an issue as to who was "by blood" and who wasn't, but not as to skin color.  That's not to say that there weren't divisions between Full Bloods and Mixed Bloods, which there were in the past and even today.  But as far as people who claim to be of Cherokee Heritage not enrolled in one of the 3 Federally Recognized Cherokee Tribes having "high BQs".  This is pure nonsense.  Most of the Fakes claim that their ancestors walked off the Trail of Tears and that they are 1/4 or something like that.  Using the general Rule of 20 years for a generation, which would be around 8 generations from 1840, (Trail of Tears was 1838).  For the handfuls of Cherokees that did stay behind,( and didn't join up with the EB later ), ( which you could probably count on your fingers ), these folks were most likely "white Cherokees" to begin with, and could pass themselves off as white.  But even if they were Full Bloods, and stayed behind, then they would have intermixed with whites for 8 generations.  A full blood intermixing for 8 generations would become 1/256 in 8 generations.  And even if a Full Blood "4/4" missed the Dawes Roll in 1900, and settled outside the CN, there would be no pool of Full Bloods for this Cherokee to intermingle with.  This "myth" of people who claim Cherokee heritage having "high BQs" is nothing more than that "a myth".  Not only that, but the vast majority of these people aren't Cherokee at all, and don't have "a drop" of Cherokee blood.  The ones that aren't enrolled but actually DO HAVE Cherokee blood, are of low BQs and are of predominately "white ancestry".  If there were dark skin people in their family, in many cases, they were most likely of "African American" ancestry", and smaller numbers who had American Indian ancestry from other Tribes.  And a lot of these folks are in all likelihood the descendents of "white invaders" who invaded Cherokee land.  Maybe they got a suntan or something.  

Black Wolf, undoutedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ  who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.

Quote from: wolfhawaii on June 27, 2010, 08:00:48 PM
Black Wolf, undoutedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ  who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.

There are indeed people of Cherokee ancestry in what is now the boundaries of the CNO who come from families that were not put on the Dawes, and are indeed still recognized by the Cherokee people as being who they are. However unless this happened in some actual community where dozens of people were not enrollled, then I doubt that today any of their descendants are over 1/4. I know of some that were high BQ during the time of the Dawes that were not enrolled, and one of their descendants is actually pretty fair well known in even in greater NDN country. However even that particular man is lower BQ, and white looking with BQ that is probably around 1/4 himself.

So though I do agree with you such people existed back then, I do not believe their descendants would still be un-enrolled and high BQ today. They would have either married NON NDN's would have kept the situation the same, or married somebody enrolled and would make those descendants no longer un-enrolled.

Wolfhawaii and Rattlebone . . . Haven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings? Or Carey Cottage's? The Cherokee are the most documented people on the planet. IF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.

Anyone who thinks there are full-blood or near to full-blood Cherokee who are not enrolled in one of the three recognized Cherokee Nations, should read:

David Cornsilk: Definition of Wannabee

Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter

Quote from: bls926 on June 27, 2010, 09:11:40 PM
Wolfhawaii and Rattlebone . . . Haven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings? Or Carey Cottage's? The Cherokee are the most documented people on the planet. IF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.

Anyone who thinks there are full-blood or near to full-blood Cherokee who are not enrolled in one of the three recognized Cherokee Nations, should read:

David Cornsilk: Definition of Wannabee

Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter

QuoteHaven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings?

I have seen plenty of his writings, and though I might agree with some of what he says, he is by no means some God, in which everything he says is absolute gospel.

He says enough horrible things about the people of the EBC, and by that I mean those enrolled, that I take a lot of what he says now days with a grain of salt.

QuoteIF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee.

Where did I mention in my previous post anything about "people who walked off the trail.?"

I said point blank that I was talking about people in what is now the territory of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I also said that those that I knew of were not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that. One of them is actually a very well known writer. Now I don't know if he is enrolled himself or not, but he will actually point to some of his own relatives that were in Oklahoma in the days of the dawes and say he knows they were never enrolled.

of course even those people are few and far between.

QuoteAs BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.

Once again, I was not talking about people with "my family walked off the trail stories." If you are going to attempt to correct me on something, please take the time to read what I actually said.

Quote from: Rattlebone on June 27, 2010, 10:17:18 PM
I said point blank that I was talking about people in what is now the territory of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I also said that those that I knew of were not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that. One of them is actually a very well known writer. Now I don't know if he is enrolled himself or not, but he will actually point to some of his own relatives that were in Oklahoma in the days of the dawes and say he knows they were never enrolled.

of course even those people are few and far between.

People living in Oklahoma, claiming to be Cherokee, and not enrolled with any of the three recognized Cherokee Nations. I got that, Rattle.

As I said before, if someone did not register himself and his family, someone else did it for him. Everyone living in Indian Territory was counted. The only way someone wouldn't have been counted would be if he left the Nation, blended in, assimilated. In other words, was no longer part of the Cherokee Nation.

". . .  not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that." How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation? There have been seven to eight generations since the Trail of Tears. Even if someone was 4/4 Cherokee in 1838, their descendants would be approximately 1/256 bq now. It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll. Even if someone was 4/4 the day the census was taken, if their descendants all married out since, they'd be 1/32 bq at most. Where'd you come up with 1/4?


Edit to add:  Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?

Wolfhawaii said

QuoteBlack Wolf, undoubtedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ  who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.

Quotehowever, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ  who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled.

Let's examine how this would be possible wolfhawaii. The Dawes Act was passed in 1887 by Congress and later the Curtis Act in 1898.  The main applications for Dawes were taken from 1900-1902 and then minor children in 1906.  So let's use the year 1900 to simplify things. The purpose of the Dawes Rolls was to verify Tribal Members for those who would receive land allotments as the Federal Government was in the process of breaking up the Reservation System or the idea of land being held in common by the Tribes.  At around this time in Indian Territory, there was a US census taken of everyone living in the Cherokee Nation, and actually the majority of people living in Indian Territory at the time weren't even considered Cherokee.  

Part of the qualification to get on the Dawes Roll was for someone to be able to trace back to an 1880 Authenticated Tribal Roll taken by the Cherokee Nation, and also another census taken in 1896.  Cherokees by blood, Minor Cherokees by blood, Intermarried Whites, Freedmen, and (Shawnee and Delaware Indians who were made citizens of the Cherokee Nation between 1867-1869) were enrolled on the Dawes Roll.  However with that said, one did not have to be "Indian" or a Cherokee to live in Indian Territory, and as I pointed out, the majority at the time, WERE NEITHER Indian nor Cherokee.  Legal residency by Cherokees was required to enroll on Dawes.  There are 4 states in particular, where it is known that there were Cherokees living outside the boundaries.  Kansas, Texas, Arkansas, and Missouri.   Cherokees would not qualify if they lived here.  However, many of these people can at least trace back to another Cherokee Roll or census.  It is pure nonsense the story that people give of their ancestors not enrolling that were living in Indian Territory.  For those that refused to enroll, they were either enrolled by force or by people in their community.  ( See link Polly's Grandaughter" that bls926 provided.


This is even the case with Redbird Smith who was enrolled later.  There were numerous censuses and Rolls taken before Dawes.  What is known is that there were more people that applied to Dawes then actually got accepted.  The reason people applied (whites in particular) was because they wanted allotments, and there were many whites trying to pass themselves off as mixed blood Cherokees.  Luckily the overwhelming majority of these people were rejected.  Sometimes when people say their Cherokee ancestor applied but didn't get on the Final Roll, I take that to mean that they were rejected because they weren't Cherokee.  Also, sometimes a family would have to come back with more proof that they were Cherokee and their initial application would be listed as "doubtful" and they would ask for more proof.  In the overwhelming majority of cases, if one was Cherokee, he or she could eventually prove it.  

There were also a number of White Intruders who were squatting on Indian Land.
http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/heritage/native-american/ancestor-search.html

QuoteCensus of Intruders
If you haven't found your ancestor listed on any rolls of persons recognized as tribal members, you should check for lists of "Intruders". The correspondence between tribal officials and agents is full of complaints about non-Indians living on tribal land and sometimes includes lists of the names of these people with a request that they be removed. The Cherokees compiled a census of intruders in 1893 which has been microfilmed by the Fort Worth Branch (control number 7RA-55) and censuses taken by the tribe in 1880 and 1890 (microfilmed as 7RA07 and 7RA08) contain separate schedules of Intruders. Many of the persons enrolled by the Dawes Commission found non--Indians living on the lands they selected as allotments. The Commission investigated these complaints from 1901 to 1909 and the indexes to these intruder cases are available on microfilm (7RA5-3) at the Fort Worth Branch. Many Outalucks are the descendants of these "intruders".