NAFPS Forum

Interesting site, I appreciate your message and what your trying to do here. 

I, myself, have no Native American Indian blood in me (as far as I know), but have always felt an affinity toward Indians as far back as I can remember.  I come from a place where the natives were rubbed out centuries ago and my culture is as bland as chalk.  There are no native healers that can be found through word of mouth (or any other way),  but there are a growing number of "plastic shamans" roaming about the last few years.  I have been hurt by some of them and I have also been helped by some of them.  I try to keep in mind, LOL, that sometimes coyote is the best medicine teacher.   

For the most part, I seem to have a pretty decent "sham-dar" when it comes to detecting self proclaimed authorities.  The times I have gotten burned it has been a reminder that I need to look within more often for my guidance.  I don't think most of these folks mean any harm, like a drunken sixteen year old behind the wheel of a car doesn't.  I prefer to use the words dangerously irresponsible. 

As for me, I do have an eclectic spiritual practice because my own culture/community was, and still is, so lacking.  I have tried to study some of the NAI traditions but since I'm white and don't live in areas where the remnants these traditions still exist, I have pretty much given up trying to make a full blown practice out of it.
   
I have often considered the dilemma of the rapid loss of cultural tradition that is the consequence of our new ease in transportation and communication.  It's heartbreaking, but it's reality.  But then I think, hey, all traditions started out as "not a tradition", but a radical change.  And not all traditions are healthy or continue to be healthy.  Right now everyone's traditions are being "lost", not just yours.  So maybe there is a destruction of all our separate cultures in order to create one earth culture.  That's where I put my hope. 

In the meantime, it is a painful process and so many beautiful rituals, art objects, foods, etc. are being degraded and deformed.  I think that the hope of nuagers is along the lines of a new world culture.  The ironic thing is that, as yet, there is no cohesion for an earth culture as seen microcosmically in any nuage group of which I've ever been a part.  They break apart easily and not very cordially!  I applaud you all for trying to preserve what you have left and it angers me as well to see it so much a part of pop culture.

[edited to change thread title and move thread from introductions section. - k]

WHAT!
are you talking about?
My culture is alive and my tradition live each day.
We already have what we need in our lives we don't
want a so called earth culture. My beliefs are NOT for sales.
We need to close off our ways to non-natives and don't need
them to preserve our beliefs thank you

" I don't think most of these folks mean any harm, like a drunken sixteen year old behind the wheel of a car doesn't. "

-I like the analogy. It fits

The way I see it non NDNs are welcome to most ceremonies provided they respect it. It's best to keep good friends but safe boundaries.

NDN_Outlaw said

QuoteThe way I see it non NDNs are welcome to most ceremonies provided they respect it. It's best to keep good friends but safe boundaries.

NDN_Outlaw looking back over the past 20 or 30 years in regards to what you just said.  Would you say most non NDNS respect it?

Also in regards to what you said about having good friends but safe boundries.  I know of particular cases where spiritual people who had so called non NDN good friends were taken advantage of by them. 

Maybe not in all cases, but in some cases, exploiters will purposely and methodically seek out friendship with spiritual people from reservations and NDN communities.  Then these exploiters will use these so called friends to legitimize themselves.  In reality, their NDN friends are just "token Indians" that they use to fit their own twisted agendas. 

There might be exceptions to the rule ( as there always are ) in accepting non NDNS into ceramony. ( such as immediate non NDN family for example)  But, I agree with earthw7.  Keeping non NDNS out of ceramony needs to happen.  Enough is Enough already.   

Quote" I don't think most of these folks mean any harm, like a drunken sixteen year old behind the wheel of a car doesn't. "

I'm not sure I agree with this 100 percent either.

This is a great topic. Would be nice to put it on the board as a stand alone.

I so agree, seems like some mis-conceptions in the first poster esp.

I know an old man who gets pestered by wannabes. They'd camp out at his place, kick back and basically mooch. His answer was to put them to work hauling water, cutting wood. gathering rocks and whatever else to keep them busy. Wannabes usually want things quick and easy. The old man held super hot sweats and only taught them about themselves and nothing ceremonial. They moved on looking for somebody where they could learn things quick and easy.

Quote from: NDN_Outlaw on November 30, 2009, 07:37:51 PM
This is a great topic. Would be nice to put it on the board as a stand alone.

Since indigomoon has not been back, we could move this discussion to etc. If indigomoon wants to try again, they can do a new intro.

What do you think the new title should be?

I think Indigo Moon got chomped some. I know it's super upsetting to see our sacred ways disrespected. I suppose I'm on the fringe and don't see the full nastiness of it that say the Lakotas do. I suspect Indigo Moon in her/ his own clumsy way was simply introducing herself/ himself with out bad intent. At least I give her/ him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we could rewind and allow Indy to reintroduce. As for a new thread topic how about: "Protecting what is ours"

Moved, but I can't seem to figure out how to rename the thread....

Duct-taped it via editing post, though I think there's a better way to do it...

Quote from: NDN_Outlaw on December 11, 2009, 02:21:53 AM
I think Indigo Moon got chomped some. I know it's super upsetting to see our sacred ways disrespected. I suppose I'm on the fringe and don't see the full nastiness of it that say the Lakotas do. I suspect Indigo Moon in her/ his own clumsy way was simply introducing herself/ himself with out bad intent.

Chomped,,, It's kinda like when the white lady asked Malcom X what she could do to help with the black movement and he told her to go home and shoot herself...

[Oh crap. My apologies. I hit "Modify Post" instead of "Quote", and didn't realize my mistake till after I posted. I hope I didn't cut any of your content, Paul. Again, I apologize for hitting the wrong button. - k]

Quote from: NDN_Outlaw on December 11, 2009, 02:21:53 AMChomped,,, It's kinda like when the white lady asked Malcom X what she could do to help with the black movement and he told her to go home and shoot herself...

I believe Malcolm X's actual reply to the naive young white woman who asked "What can I do to help your people, your movement?"  was, "Nothing."  If I recall correctly, in the book he then explained that the movement was about Black people taking power, setting the agenda, and doing the work. In my opinion, Malcolm was clear that it was about POC asserting sovereignty over their own lives, communities, and situations that affected them. It was not about harming white people, or begging for favors from them, or about white people at all. At that point in his life he was a separatist, and his interactions with white people reflected that.

I don't think it's appropriate to compare people being insulted that their traditions, their lives, are being misrepresented and ripped off, and expressing their anger over that, to telling someone to shoot themselves.

The real issues here are compelling enough, they don't need to be exaggerated. Exaggerating people's actual words and responses verges into that same territory of misrepresentation, and of trying to amplify conflict.

Indigomoon did not respectfully ask what NDN people think she can do to help fight cultural appropriation. She claimed to know about NDN cultures, said they were dying, and defended Nuage appropriation. Indigomoon and the young white woman who approached Malcolm X may have both been naive, but from what Malcolm reported that young woman was more respectful than indigomoon.

Quote from: NDN_Outlaw on December 03, 2009, 06:00:50 PM
I know an old man who gets pestered by wannabes. They'd camp out at his place, kick back and basically mooch. His answer was to put them to work hauling water, cutting wood. gathering rocks and whatever else to keep them busy. Wannabes usually want things quick and easy. The old man held super hot sweats and only taught them about themselves and nothing ceremonial. They moved on looking for somebody where they could learn things quick and easy.

Makes me think of that guy in Sedona who's selling sweats to the nuagers... the one that was on CNN. He let CNN film the "sacred song" he'd taught the white people to sing in the sweat... It was the AIM Song.

Quote, all traditions started out as "not a tradition", but a radical change.  And not all traditions are healthy or continue to be healthy.  Right now everyone's traditions are being "lost", not just yours.  So maybe there is a destruction of all our separate cultures in order to create one earth culture.

After rereading Indigo Moon's post I have problems with this quote. The hope for me is not to create a one world culture but to protect a living culture. It's a tough call, for many reasons, to say who and who should not attend ceremonies. I totally agree the only people who should be conducting ceremonies are NDNs directly connected to and sanctioned by a living line of real medicine people. I'm old enough to remember when the traditional people were scorned even by their own people. They sacrificed a lot to keep the culture alive. They were among the poorest. Now everything has gone upside down. The medicine people are no longer scorned but admired even treated like a brown jeasus. If poverty was a test so is all the temptation of money and fame. We've lost a lot of people to shiny objects. It all plays with people's heads. There was an individual from this province who decided to hold a bear sweat although it had never been passed for him to do so. A rock exploded inside the lodge and people were injured. Another individual who I knew and kept away from, used to growl like a bear then pounce on people again in a sweat. He was told in no uncertain terms to stop. He didn't listen. Then one day he came out of his lodge, took a few steps and dropped dead. Two people were asked to tend their father's lodge fire while he went to town. Both his sons had been drinking the night before and were hung over. They decided to go ahead and make the lodge with out their father. The old man used to use fifty very hot rocks. They went in the lodge and closed the door. The bucket tipped over and one died. The other couldn't find the door and was burned so bad he had to be hospitalized. I knew these people. It's not only non NDNs who are abusing ceremony but NDNs too. We truly live in troubling times and it is so easy to become lost in the confusion.

Quote from: NDN_Outlaw on December 13, 2009, 11:05:16 PM
all traditions started out as "not a tradition", but a radical change.  And not all traditions are healthy or continue to be healthy.  Right now everyone's traditions are being "lost", not just yours.  So maybe there is a destruction of all our separate cultures in order to create one earth culture.

I think the problem w/Indigo's quote here, is well.. first.. backing up..

I agree most 'cultures' started at some point, and have changed in some ways.  What was your culture before White Buffalo Calf Woman?  (i'm clearly w/o any knowledge on this so please excuse if I offend anyone w/my ignorance)

So, in this I can agree that cultures 'start' at some point..  and they do change.  

What I don't agree with is the idea that any particular culture belongs to the whole of the world.  It doesn't.  It belongs to those who are indoctrinated within it.. born to it or otherwise..  and the traditions and ceremonies, especially those that are sacred to the culture, should never be appropriated and mis-used/abused.  

I also don't agree with the idea that a 'one world' should dissolve cultures or heritages.  

I do agree with a one world ideal.. in regards to Mankind, and to a benefit of Mankind.  But I can't see or think or formulate what type of governing government could be with this.  

Point is, Mankind is mostly, imo, selfish greedy wannabes of this or that... It's mine, and if you want it you have to pay..  

Sometimes, I get scared in a way, looking at the so called 'leaders' of certain countries..  power mongers.. with no sense of well.. anything that doesn't prop up their own self grandiose image and life..  

Point is, nuagers live in a bubble of fictional fairy tales..  sure, it'd be nice to have a one world.. and world peace..  but they fail to see that in THIS world, it's highly unlikely when the vast majority of peoples can't keep their hands off what is not theirs.. and have no understanding of the word Respect.  

Nuagers can only think in terms of a one world where everything is open for everyone..  and that all the vast varying, beautiful cultures that the peoples of such cultures hold dear, should collapse.. and be forgotten.  Or left in the halls of some obsolete museums.

I guess I have too much time in my life, because I have thought for long times on the 'one world' ideal..  and although I can see it.. I can only see it if the world continues to secure all of it's cultures and cultural identities.  "One World"  does not equate to "One People and One Belief".  

Now, to me, the ideal of a 'one belief' is a what some religions try to obtain..  and a world run by any one singular 'religion' is a world I would not wish to partake in.  

Cultures change in time, but they change in the context of their own..  or they should.. and not by the dissolution and/or destruction of them..  

Anyway, I seriously doubt Mankind would ever be able to live peacefully with one another when apparently it's some sort of 'human nature' to look over at what some other people are doing and want to do it too.. not that 'that' is so bad.. but the nature to do it/take it regardless of anything..

Why can't people just look and say, wow, that's really beautiful what you believe and live ..  and then move one with their own thing.. ?  I guess sometimes..  what we see in others touches us deeply.. and maybe we want or feel to know more of it.  But 'know' is a key word isn't it?  And knowing something usually takes a life time..  if not longer.

As for nuagers wanting 'instant' access/knowledge.  I always think of the old Kung Fu movies, where Kane had to stand out side for days before being let in.. with 3 other boys..  in the rain and cold.. and then, spent how long doing menial work and never being taught a thing.  There's a wisdom to that, there's a reason.  I can't say I know what it is, but I believe in that..  in what that is.  It just seems to me that if all you have is a passing fancy of curiosity.. well..  some things are a 'life' and not 'part of'..  <shrug>  I don't know if I'm being clear.. so.. ending.