NAFPS Forum

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before... yet...here looks like another site very similar to this discussion...
http://www.questvision.org/soul_intense.php
... notice the photos, the school of natural wonder... makes you wonder if it is not the economy model of angel valley resort  :-\

"Flynn Johnson, M.A., founder of The School of Natural Wonder, has has been leading Vision Quests since 1993 and has gone on many quests himself. He combines his love of nature and his love of people into creating unique rite of passage experiences. His training as a wilderness vision quest guide was with Steven Foster and Meredith Little, pioneers in the field of wilderness initiatory process. In his work, he draws on his background in Jungian psychology, ecopsychology, Core Energetics, Native American spiritual traditions, shamanic energy medicine, meditation, storytelling, Buddhism, and yoga. He is a certified Wilderness First Responder.

Jill Neitlich, LICSW, has been a psychotherapist for many years and co-leading Vision Quests with her husband Flynn since 1998.  She also received her training as a wilderness vision quest guide with Steven Foster and Meredith Little. In her work, Jill draws on her background in psychology, ecopsychology, Core Energetics, breathwork, meditation, and yoga."

And for only 850 bucks, they will train you to do a vision quest yourself. No doubt an investment for people who'd prefer not having to actually work for a living.

I don't think it's related to Ray's program because there's no talk of being a warrior or doing sweats.

Here's the people they learned from.
http://www.herondance.org/Meredith-Little-The-School-of-Lost-Borders-W130C50_webpage.aspx

Basically it's silly and/or naive nonNative people doing knockoffs of ceremonies designed for Native boys becoming men.

Quote from: educatedindian on November 11, 2009, 03:53:56 PM


I don't think it's related to Ray's program because there's no talk of being a warrior or doing sweats.

Here's the people they learned from.
http://www.herondance.org/Meredith-Little-The-School-of-Lost-Borders-W130C50_webpage.aspx

Basically it's silly and/or naive nonNative people doing knockoffs of ceremonies designed for Native boys becoming men.

I agree it is not related or associated to Ray's program. It is very similar, yet not as intensive as it reads.

It does mention about doing a Purification Lodge, along with Medicine Wheel on this page...
http://www.questvision.org/structure.php

..and a photo of Purification Lodge they use on this page...
http://www.questvision.org/soul_intense.php

..and on this page...
http://www.questvision.org/program_details.php?ID=9
They seem to sum it all up with ...
>Quote>Participants learn our modern adaptation of the ancient Native American Vision Quest.   They receive instruction in the dynamics of rites of passage, a Medicine Wheel, the dynamics of fasting, and safety procedures.  Participants also learn the way of counsel and the process of mirroring, both of which are central to the Vision Quest process.<end Quote<

and finally here on this page...
http://www.questvision.org/program_details.php?ID=2
>Quote>Some possibilities may be a limited Medicine Walk, a Purification Lodge, and a Death Lodge.  These are powerful earth-based rituals that carry the medicine to lift an individual out of an all-too-confining perspective into a wider, more expansive view of what is troubling her or him and what is possible.  <Quote<

after reading most of their site... I would hope they have a right and license to practice Psychology... makes me wonder what RITES of PASSAGE they feel they have to offer and lead a Purification Lodge or Medicine Wheel... chance are they probably think Budda gave them this right!  ::)

Well, at least they labeled it right.  Death Lodge.  No bones about, eh?

Hello,
I realize this is an old topic, but I wanted to contribute my experiences and thoughts.  I have actually participated in several "vision quests" with School of Natural Wonder. I am acutely aware that some indigenous people feel that any use of indigenous concepts, ritual, or practice constitutes appropriation. I can absolutely agree that through time grave abuses and misappropriation has occurred.  There is no excuse for this.  AND, I would like to draw a distinction between appropriation and respectful use.

Flynn Johnson provided a program based on the North American Indigenous peoples' rite of passage, the Vision Quest. In this program various rituals were explored for the participant to choose what felt most appropriate given the purpose of the quest. The Medicine Wheel was used as a guide and occasionally quests would include a sweat lodge.

At all times Mr. Johnson has been respectful and has educated participants on the history and ethics of using the Native American version of a Rite of Passage. He never pretended to be anything he was not, nor took/encouraged "fake Indian" names. Mr. Johnson has ties with the Native community and demonstrated deep respect for the culture.

I understand that to some people, these programs will never be acceptable. However, I offer this...Rites of Passage have existed in every culture. And they have been lost to many/most modern cultures...yet it is a vital and necessary ritual that people still need. Our current Rites of passage mean little...old enough to buy cigarettes and alcohol, old enough to drive, vote, and die at war. In the absence of meaningful Rites of passage suffering and incomplete transitions are prevalent. That some non-Natives find solace, instruction, meaning, or resonance with Native American spirituality should not be surprising. For some of us, Nature is our worship center; and a Nature-based spirituality is in alignment. I experienced very powerful healing and guidance through Nature. I have a deep reverence for Native American spitituality and culture. I am not from the culture (although my nieces and nephews are) and I am interested in ways to support and honor Native people.

Specifically, I wanted to contribute to the discussion about School of Natural Wonder; to say that Flynn Johnson offered a strong program grounded in Native American concepts and executed with the utmost integrity and respect for Native American culture and traditions. If we are judging on a case by case basis, Flynn's program was above-board.

Thank you,
Laura Young

Non-Natives don't get to make the call about what kind of appropriation is "respectful".

When the appropriators say, "Hey, I'm not Native; I don't have the right to do this." and then they just do it anyway...

What does that make them but a hypocrite? What does that make them but an intentional, premeditated, boundary-violator?  When someone offends out of ignorance, there is hope they will change when told they are doing harm. When someone knows they're violating the community standards of the cultures they vulture from, and does it anyway, that's worse. They are knowingly doing harm.

These kinds of disclaimers may make some of the people they sell fake (potentially dangerous) ceremonies to feel better about ripping off Natives, but it's still misappropriation and it's still wrong. It still centers the desires of non-Natives over those of Natives. It's white privilege in action.

The issue is very simple: it's not Johnson's place to do these ceremonies or anything like them. If he wants to lecture about the issues that you mention: about the lack of meaningful coming of age in 'Western' culture, and about ethics and such, then more power to him! However that is not a reason to do what has happened here.

Do you realize that if he was just honest and sincere, he could probably approach the various Siouan people and ask their experts to consult with him to help conceptualize a new, non-traditional, framework for non-natives? Someone like him could help to create something with expert advice from people who still live their traditions, but it seems like no one ever wants to ask the Indians for help, except to get what belongs to them. Or to speak for them.