NAFPS Forum

you know i said i don't like it, but i'm using it quite a bit in all this. Thats the thing about language, once a word is created its there to stay. Its get used when trying to commmunicate with the people who use it, cause to them it means something.
I don't like it ,but it is a point of reference. My teachers taught me that points of reference, like in math, are what really matters for understanding things.

Quote from: Rattlebone on March 23, 2009, 06:08:33 PM
  Well I am enjoying this conversation here even if I don't agree with people or vice versa. It does make for some good conversation, and a lot of thinking. I really enjoy that, and it actually makes me come to this site more then I did in the past.

I don't per say agree with the usage of the word PODIA, and have found a few flaws in how it is being applied here. However I can see how using it would make things simple instead of using something like always having to say " a person who claims some gggggg grandmother and thinks they are Indian."

I have found some instances now where Moma_Porcupine and I see eye to eye on things, and I do find that to be a good thing.

Hopefully we can learn from each other here, and find common ground.

I am sure though that there will always be places where we disagree strongly with each other, and criticism will come from it, but that is life and how things go with opinions.

you kno

Quote from: BlackWolf on March 23, 2009, 09:45:10 PM

Quotesorry dude, but it isn't an argument. Aztlan is aztlan and we are home again.  One of many homes whether you like it or not. Does this mean more than that? NO. So I'm home now. Come over so we can have a bbq. Thats all it really means.

Of course you are home Koyoteh.  You were born here, and I think you mentioned your 3rd generation.  The Southwest, and the United States are your home.  And if immigrants come, then its their home to.  What I was refering to was the beleif by some Aztlan supporters that all Indian people in the Americas should be able to roam the Americas and settle and live where ever they please.  That is what I was refereing to. It has nothing to do with you or the millions of other Xicanos and Mexican Americans.  But I don't believe in open borders.  I'm not against immigration, but it should be controlled and limited.  Whatever happened in the past happened.  Nonone can change that.  But as far as I'm concerend, the United States has a defined border with Mexico and Canada, whether some Aztlan supporters like it or not.

get ready cause the borders will be opening up in our lifetime. SPP ACT , if you go to the gov website you'll find it, is about the creation of the North American Union. Right now its not called that, its being called the SPP. Its disguised as trade aggreements with safe passage and new roads for trade. but along with it goes international money, new i.d. cards, even that RFID chip. Dont' believe in the chip? go to the post office website, for the meanitime its by volunteer only.

when open borders are created, how will people views be then?

people have good memories , and they will remember how they were treated.

the whole concept of not believing in open borders implies a belief and backup of current borders, and the politics that go with them , and even how they came to be , and what they represent to all natives who live at the borders on all sides of them.

these natives will remember how you really felt about these borders that cause them so much trouble. they will know that most likely your heart won't change just cause they do not exist anymore. they will even think that you will wish for them to come back.

this doesn't mean we will support the new borders either, it just means you show where your heart lies if you believe in the current ones. and it isn't with us.

reality is something else. WE deal with reality and work with it and live with it, but we don't have to also believe in it or at least not with ALL of it.

Oh oh I seem to have run into someone who may be as long winded as myself ...

Gee Rattlebone , how am I ever going to find time to respond to all that ? And who is going to want to read through it all if I do ? You bring up a lot of complex issues that have been discussed other places on this message board such as the role of community in maintaining a culture, how a Native community should be defined, and what happens when bits and peieces of traditions get practiced outside of the entire culture.

The main thing I would be responding to, which hasn't already been said before by many other people would be pointing out numerous examples of where it appears to me that something was said ,  and then you claim that was never said. Which seems kind of a waste of time..

Especially as you will probably just reply in the same way in response.... If this is an endurance test to see who can type the longest you will probably win... 

So I am going to try to reply by just staying with the main issue ... which seems to be ( if I understand this correctly ) that you feel using the term PODIA is unfair because you believe people either are entirely Indian or entirely not an Indian, and that people who you see as fully NDN are somehow being put down, discriminated against and persecuted by not being recognized by other NDNs and their own tribes as being fully NDN and instead called PODIAs.

Koyoteh very first sentence in this thread ...

QuoteIf a nation you claim to be from doesn't claim you, thats supposed to make you not indian anymore? Thats just crazy talk.

Reply #14
Rattlebone
 

QuoteTo me BQ is short sighted because such a term, and using it to push out does not take into consideration that culture and ways can be passed down regardless of such a thing as BQ. If I was a person who watched my children out marry to non natives, and then my grandchildren do the same; it would be short sited of me to think that somehow I could not make sure that ways, language, and culture could still be passed down.

Rattlebone
Reply #23

QuoteThe difference between you and I in this topic is that I do not view people as Indian or part Indian....I view somebody as simply Indian or non Indian. To me the word PODIA is sorta like calling somebody "part Indian," and I don't view people in such a way regardless of BQ or skin color.

Logically , this position would mean that you believe that

A. ) NDN identity and culture is passed on indefintely no matter many generations a persons family has lived in a non native community and no matter how many generations of non native parents are included in this persons line of descent .

OR

B.) An NDN identity is lost as soon as there is one generation of outmarriage or a persons family has not lived in a native community for a generation

OR

C. )There is some sudden cut off point where a person has a parent who is fully NDN but their own identity is fully non NDN.

OR

D. ) You are just repeating something you heard which sounded good, but now you think about it it doesn't really make sense and there is people somewhere in between being fully an NDN and fully not an NDN.

What do you really believe Rattlebone ? Do you believe A. B. C. or D. ?

I don't understand who exactly you feel is being unfairly discriminated against by not being considered fully NDN and entitled to tribal membership ( enrollment ) by other NDN people .

It obviously wouldn't be the people you consider fully non native.

So presumably it would be the people you claim are fully Native , who you feel are being unfairly unrecognized as NDN people. This would have to mean either you consider everyone of any Native descent , in a community with a few other people who are also of some Native descent, who wants to be considered an NDN or an NDN Nation to be fully NDN , or you have figured out some magic line that once a mixed blood person crosses it , they are no longer Native.

If you believe in a magic line, you are just doing the same thing you are complaining about tribal governments doing. Lots of people who end up on the wrong side of that line are going to tell you it's unfair. The only difference I can see is your own magic line might be different than the one decided by a particular tribal government.

You also seem believe calling people with no strong connection to a federally recognized Native community People of Distant Indian Ancestry AKA PODIAs is in some way condeming them to some sort of lesser experience .

What exactly do you feel these people are unfairly missing out on?

How exactly do you see people who are not able to enrolled in a federally recognized tribe as being deprived ? How do you imagine being enrolled, federally recognized, or just recognized by other Native people would improve this ?

I know i haven't replied to all your comments and if there is something particular you or anyone else feels is important, they could respond , or ask me to,  but responding to all that would be way more than I can manage...

Quoteget ready cause the borders will be opening up in our lifetime. SPP ACT , if you go to the gov website you'll find it, is about the creation of the North American Union. Right now its not called that, its being called the SPP. Its disguised as trade agreement with safe passage and new roads for trade. but along with it goes international money, new i.d. cards, even that RFID chip. Don't' believe in the chip? go to the post office website, for the meanitime its by volunteer only.

Well we agree on something Koyoteh!  Your right, there is a huge agenda by both Republicans and Democrats to open up the borders.  Something like the EU free movement of people and goods program in Europe.  This also ties in to the amnesty issue.  Bush tried to ram it through congress, as Obama will probably try to do the same this year. Only time will tell what will happen.  I'll check that site though.



 

Quotewhen open borders are created, how will people views be then?

people have good memories , and they will remember how they were treated.

If and when this happens.  My views will be exactly the same.  And I'll tell it to anyone who would like to listen, whether it be on the internet or in person. 

Quotethe whole concept of not believing in open borders implies a belief and backup of current borders, and the politics that go with them , and even how they came to be , and what they represent to all natives who live at the borders on all sides of them.

I support first and foremost my fellow Indians from my own country, and the country I was born in, live in, and if I have my own way, die in.  If my little brother gets in a fight.  Do you think I care who started it or who was right or wrong?  I don't think you would either.

Quotethese natives will remember how you really felt about these borders that cause them so much trouble. they will know that most likely your heart won't change just cause they do not exist anymore. they will even think that you will wish for them to come back.

Agreed.  My heart won't change.  If it happens, I'm sure I will wish for them to come back.

Quotethis doesn't mean we will support the new borders either, it just means you show where your heart lies if you believe in the current ones. and it isn't with us.

Agreed.  That is,if your referring to the Aztlan Movement.

Quotereality is something else. WE deal with reality and work with it and live with it, but we don't have to also believe in it or at least not with ALL of it.

Well Said.

Blackwolf - your comments concern us:
You wrote -
"But I don't believe in open borders.  I'm not against immigration, but it should be controlled and limited.  Whatever happened in the past happened.  Nonone can change that.  But as far as I'm concerend, the United States has a defined border with Mexico and Canada, whether some Aztlan supporters like it or not. "

There are a lot of Mohawks (traditional elders, women, children, warriors) who would disagree with you, with their very lives on the line, when it comes to the synthetic borders illegitimately determined by the United States of America.

Koyoteh - don't know anything about your people - wish I did. But I do recognize the essence of your message and want you to know that it crosses cultural lines. I understand and support your beliefs as being yours and sense you extend that same respect, understanding and support to others. And THAT reflects my understanding of many Indigenous Traditional belief systems. Traditions EVOLVE. People move. Customs, Practices, Cultures are not stagnant - they are organic and MUST change in order to survive - otherwise, everbody "traditional" might as well just check into the nearest museum and go on display as "colorful replicas of America's past." When confronted with the inevitible changes in life people generally do the best they can do, and that anyone older than us deserves a modicum of respect for that sheer existence, survival and whatever their experiences may offer ours. Furthermore, when did it become alright for outsiders to ANY tribe, nation, community to think THEIR opinions carry ANY validity about who is and who isn't Natively aligned with that community!
That is somewhere between arrogant and paternalistic - both being non-traditional traits of colonialism. Or maybe it is simply naive.
Thank you for your patience and efforts Koyoteh. I sense you may soon be leaving this venue - your presence here added much food for genuine thought and thoughtful reflection. Stay well.

QuoteThere are a lot of Mohawks (traditional elders, women, children, warriors) who would disagree with you, with their very lives on the line, when it comes to the synthetic borders illegitimately determined by the United States of America.

The tribes with members on both sides of the border are a different story.  Maybe I should have been more clear.  They should be able to come and go as they please in these cases.  Such as the Mohawks, Tohono O'odham Nation in Arizona, and other nations on the border with Canada and the US.  They should be able to live and work anywhere with their people.  In another post I said the historic tribes from thier repective areas are the only people that has a claim to that land. 

Also, I'm not even againts immigration from Mexico and other countries or of having vistors and work visa programs.  What I am against is for example removing all Border Patrol Agents form the borders, and tearing down all checkpoints.  I don't believe that just because someone is an Indian from the Americas, that they have some kind of inherent right to travel and settle where ever they please.  IN the case of the Mohawks, they should have the right to travel anywhere there tribe is and across borders, because the tribe is divided.

I have to write before your quote cause the window won't allow me to write below it if the text is too long.
I am really aware of the contact that has been going on between the mohawk and those down south. I really am for it. I'm not going to mention details cause you might not like that.
I think this threads discussion is going pretty well.
From what I have learned , every discussion or meeting or convention always begins with getting some personal issues out of the way. Then everyone starts to understand each other, things get cleared up and seperated, and we all feel better for having gotten things off our chest. This could last for hours or days or weeks or longer, in the real physical world . same goes here in cyberspace.
THEN AFTER ALL THAT is when the real respectable discussions start. ANd i think, hope, we are at that point now.
Blackwolf does notice when his words cause a bit of confusion and will sometimes rephrase his words.
I do this too. I try to anyways.
thanks for the support. we support you guys as well.

Quote from: SQuid on March 24, 2009, 02:03:32 AM
Blackwolf - your comments concern us:
You wrote -
"But I don't believe in open borders.  I'm not against immigration, but it should be controlled and limited.  Whatever happened in the past happened.  Nonone can change that.  But as far as I'm concerend, the United States has a defined border with Mexico and Canada, whether some Aztlan supporters like it or not. "

There are a lot of Mohawks (traditional elders, women, children, warriors) who would disagree with you, with their very lives on the line, when it comes to the synthetic borders illegitimately determined by the United States of America.

Koyoteh - don't know anything about your people - wish I did. But I do recognize the essence of your message and want you to know that it crosses cultural lines. I understand and support your beliefs as being yours and sense you extend that same respect, understanding and support to others. And THAT reflects my understanding of many Indigenous Traditional belief systems. Traditions EVOLVE. People move. Customs, Practices, Cultures are not stagnant - they are organic and MUST change in order to survive - otherwise, everbody "traditional" might as well just check into the nearest museum and go on display as "colorful replicas of America's past." When confronted with the inevitible changes in life people generally do the best they can do, and that anyone older than us deserves a modicum of respect for that sheer existence, survival and whatever their experiences may offer ours. Furthermore, when did it become alright for outsiders to ANY tribe, nation, community to think THEIR opinions carry ANY validity about who is and who isn't Natively aligned with that community!
That is somewhere between arrogant and paternalistic - both being non-traditional traits of colonialism. Or maybe it is simply naive.
Thank you for your patience and efforts Koyoteh. I sense you may soon be leaving this venue - your presence here added much food for genuine thought and thoughtful reflection. Stay well.

when we talk about the borders, its tough, cause there's the indigenous effects, and then there's the political and legal and everyday effects.
I seperate these things between the indigenous effects and the non-indigenous effects.

Speaking from indigenous way of looking at it is one thing. Thats gets deep. It can even conflict with the non-indigenous point of view that we have making it complicated.
Non-indigenous point of view as also being a citizen of this political country and world of law and work that we live in day to day, is something else.
I am for the legalization of immigrants that natives should have the right to move freely in native country , respecting the rules of natives in the areas we travel to and through. But then there's the real problem of gangs, drugs, crime,etc that passes through the border areas all the time. Even my people hate dealing with and talking about that part cause we don't like it, but at the same time dealing with it can cause problems from the native point of view.  Succeed at one cause hurt the other cause.

very difficult situation

QuoteFurthermore, when did it become alright for outsiders to ANY tribe, nation, community to think THEIR opinions carry ANY validity about who is and who isn't Natively aligned with that community!

I agree with this.  My tribe also has this problem of both Non-Indians and even Indians sticking their nose in our tribes business of who is or isn't or who should be or should'nt be a citizen/member of our Nation.  Your own people/tribe should decide this and not outsiders.   

Quote from: Rattlebone on March 23, 2009, 01:25:49 AM
1. ...To me the word PODIA is sorta like calling somebody "part Indian," and I don't view people in such a way regardless of BQ or skin color....

   I have come to a place here where I do recognize your reason for using the word PODIA. It might be a an easy way to say things instead of having to say "somebody that claims a gggg grandmother and thinks they are Indian," and things of that nature. Myself personally, I would just consider them non Indian and say that. I would feel that using a word such as PODIA I would look as though I am condemning somebody for being mixed or what not. As I said I simply view somebody as Indian based on them being a member of my community, or some other community. If they are just claiming some distant relative they can't prove, a tribe they have no ties to, and have no ties to any Indian community; then to me they are simply NON Indian.

  The word PODIA as I understand is supposed to mean "Persons OF Distant Indian Ancestry," and yet I have recently read Dr. Al use it to explain Mexicans that are not familiar with their Indian culture and try to claim it.

Would you refer to a full blood raised by whites who does not know their culture as a PODIA when their ancestry is not distant? A Mexican is not distant in ancestry either the majority of the time now are they when the majority of their blood is Indian?

So your word PODIA is being used inter-changeably now for unrelated circumstances. If this full blood and his Mexican counterparts are not really Indian because they don't know their culture, then do they become Indian if and when they learn it?

If a Mexican can be a PODIA, and learn their true culture and thus become an Indian. Shouldn't that be the same as some low BQ person you would call a PODIA? In that regards they should never be referred to that again as they are Indian and part of their community now aren't they?


2...but according to Dr. Al you don't have that right to being anonymous as he does not recognize that right for others on here. That was already stated and demonstrated on this site.

1. Since I was the first one to use the term, I'll tell you that you are right in seeing it has nothing to do with BQ. It has to do with ties to a community, how distant those ties are.

I came up with the term because some super sensitive people objected to the more commonly used term, thinblood. So since some object to this new one too, let's hear their suggesions besides "claims a g g g grandmother."

2. I hesitate to bring up side issues too much, but briefly....Your friend that claimed some mythical "right" to be anonymous, yet outed herself. She posted her own name and email address on her profile for all to see. The blame is entirely hers. And when someone joins and engages in some fairly low personal smears and racist insults in their very first post, they should not be able to hide behind being anonymous.

if someone is anonymous,they should be allowed to stay anonymous,unless law enforcement wants to know who they are.
If some one is behaving bad {personnal smears /Racist insults}boot them out.
don`t put up with that shit.
the whole issue in regards to BQ is bullshit.
Where do any of you get off putting labels on people?Podia/thinblood,what a bunch of crap where is the Humility the self respect.

QuoteI think this threads discussion is going pretty well.

I agree that the discussion is going well.  Not in the sense that everyone agreee with everyone else, but in the sense of having an honest dialog and hearing the opinions of those that disagree with us. Its always good to hear others views and their reasons for those views.

I have been reading this thread and trying to decide if I had anything to add and did I even want to join the discussion.  Alas I decided to put my two cents worth  in any way.  Question.  What is the given reason that people are being dis enrolled?  Then in your opinion what is the real reason?  I have always been taught that historically it was the Tribe that decided both who and under what conditions (criteria) a person was to be considered a member of the Tribe.  Yes, and in some cases BQ was not a deciding factor.  From a biological point of view being a Indian is a racial definition.  Being a Lakota, Cherokee, or Muskogee is a social or cultural construct built around the concept of an extended family (relations).  While one can be thrown out of a family one can not be thrown out of his race can one.  Now to mixed race people.  There are as many reasons as there are people as to why they want to either connect or reconnect to their Native American Culture (heritage).  Some come for the right reasons some do not.  Herein lies one of the purposes of this forum.  That is to try to warn and protect those searching for some further identity within the Native Community about those FRAUDS that would take advantage of perhaps their ignorance and perhaps even more that that.  Sometimes even their fortune and chastity are put at risk by some of these abusers.  I am an old man now and was not raised with in a Native American culture and therefore lack the first hand knowledge and experience that one receives at the feet of his Elders.  My search for that part of my heritage has been one of over twenty years.  Arduous, sometimes filled with blind alleys crooks and turns, but patience and perseverance have rewarded me with Lot's of friends as well as knowledge.  Do I still make mistakes?  Of course I do for I am still a man.  Just to make a point of how we sometimes get sidetracked in just what is important a small story.  Many years ago while I was tracing my ancestors to get the proof that I needed to obtain a membership in the CNO I became the friend of a Tribal Elder.  One day after a learning session about my heritage he said in reference to my desire for a CIDB and a CNO membership,  Why do you need a card to prove something that you allready have.  Even though I can trace back to where I need to, Dawes, from that day many years ago to this I have never felt the need for a Federal card or to be an enrolled member. The funny thing is that The Tribe accepts me as one of theirs I just can't vote. ;).  Comments offered up with respect to you all I am called "LittleOldMan"

traditionally, sovereign nations , native ones here in particular to this thread, have the right to disenroll or kick out whomever they please for whatever reasons they decide upon.
  in our past this happened and the disenrolled native(s) would go off on their own and fend for themselves alone or with each other. Naturally they would regroup and become a larger group eventually. And eventually they be a whole other tribe or clan or nation or whatever. No problem. They'd even get their respect back if they had left because of something negative.
  But today, its different. Nations have no true sovereignty as much as we'd like to hope for and work for. Tribes still have to answer to the govts in which they reside. Specifically to the U.S. and the BIA dept. The laws were set up that way too even though I have been told that they have stepped back recently.
  When a member gets disenrolled where do they go? what happens to them? IF we look at whatever 'benefits' came from a treaty then they lose it all. Cruel. ITs not like they can just start another tribe anymore.
   but why do they get disenrolled? I feel it has a lot to do with money. sure, there may be some broken rules or whatever , but its about money. Like they say, follow the money. Who benefits from the disenrollment? Does the whole tribe reall benefit in every case?
In the big picture?

The other problem is that it isnt' anybody's business but the tribes. So then what? It means no one can help right? strange situation these days.