NAFPS Forum

After reading the many posts here and some of the great people I've talked to in the past few weeks who fight these frauds, not to mention reading through some of the Plastic Shaman sites that have been linked in various threads I have a question....this is especially for those of you who have fought the fronts lines with these types of people and have seen them up close and personal, so to speak...

Do you think these fakes truly believe what they're teaching? 

After reading some of the drivel on the Whirling Rainbow site I sat there wondering, surely, this woman does not truly believe what she's saying...does she??  Just reading the whole "Shamanic Womens Healing Ceremony" advertisment I get this mental image of Ego Woman sitting at a table surrounded by books and encyclopedias as she writes this stuff to a specific market with the intent of bilking them out of their cash...

I'd really appreciate your opinions on this, it will help determine what direction I'm going to take with this book!

I think there's a wide range of types. I've met some who are totally sincere in their delusions; depending on how much ego they have, sometimes they can be persuaded to see the error of their ways. At the other end of the spectrum are hard-core con artists - the ones who, say, promise one audience they'll stop wearing their costume and giving their performances, then turn up in another state breaking all those promises and continuing to rake in the dough.

Or, even worse, the guys who tell women what great spiritual potential they have, then proceed to take their money and use them for sex.

While it's fairly easy to spot the white frauds, what's more painful are the situations where someone may be from a legitimate or semi-legitimate background, but  they wind up selling out for financial reasons, or harming people because they develop some sort of substance abuse or psychological problem. I think this last type is the saddest, due to the potential lost and the high level of harm that can be done by someone who was once trusted.

Anyway, I'd be interested in any opinions people have on ratios and statistics. Some of the frauds and exploiters I've met... I'm not sure how to categorize.

Hi

Your question is really interesting and thought provoking .

I have known several exploiters and even outright con artists.

I guess my own belief is that people who do wrong on some level really don't know any better , because if they did they wouldn't trade the joys of doing right for whatever payoff they get from doing wrong. So , when it comes to plastic medicine people it is probably often more of a question about to what degree these people have an impaired relationship with reality.

People who are full on psychopathic personality types seem to have an impairment at a really basic level. It seems they have detached themself from real connections with people and the subtle social feed back we all get which keeps most of us on track. These people have become a law and a reality unto themselves and their only way of being socially connected seems to be through being able to manipulate people , and being able to feel they had some impact on others. With these people it seems the normal two wy feed back loop got broken and they are not impacted by the social feedback they get from others. They don't feel other peoples pain or pleasure and their social identity and sense of personal value seems to be more defined by isolating themself in their own power and perhaps the social payoff is NOT being impacted by anyone.   

I know the theory is that psychopathic personalities are often formed through early childhood experiences that teach it is not safe to trust, to care or be attached to anyone . Under those circumstances it is understandable that people would withdraw into their own emotional bubble and would no longer be vulnerble to or guided by the social cues that keep the rest of us more or less socially responsible.
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It seems that religion and belief systems can work to guide people to have a harmonious relationship with reality, but when establishing this is somehow impaired, people can be create beliefs more to give themselves comfort and deny overwhelming realities, than to assist them in finding practical ways to come to terms with their lives.

I think a lot f people today feel overwhelmed and impaired in developing a harmonious relationship with reality . Not so much by poverty , death and disease, but more from what is happening in the bigger picture on a planatary scale and a profound sense of being disconnected from a culture which offers any deeper meaning than shop till you drop . I think I saw something somewhere that said "If you aren't feeling scared you aren't paying attention"

So I think that generalized underlying inner poverty  , anxiety over the big picture , together with a feeling of being individually helpless to do anything , can make it really attractive to give up trying to find a way to take construtive action , and many people seem to instead go into denial and hide in a fanatasy that somehow , miraculously the New Age is going to save the planet and all you have to do is drum or do Native ceremonies... 

Probably this general cultural background is what leads people to empower a New Age plastic shaman .

I don't think any of us are really individuals. We are all social beings and we are defined through our relationships.

When it comes to Native traditions , if these people are in a Native community they have peers to continuously provide a social perspective. In a knowledgable community almost everyone who isn't really really old has Elders or at least the collective memory of Elders , so even if someone  is very gifted the community will know and remember many people who were also gifted .so peoples egos tend to be kept in perspective.  Peoples families know them as human beings and remember their mistakes and what sort of a journey they traveled to get where they are. I think all those things help keep traditional Spirtual leaders who live in Ntive communities in balance . Their communty plays a vital role in keeping them real. 

But when these traditions get removed from the context of a native community sooner or later they seem to begin to be influenced by the feedback coming from non native people looking for salvation from reality.

I have known people who have a real *gift* who get put up on an artificially high pedastle by people who need something to believe in.

If a bunch of people begin telling you that you are really really special and start giving you gifts and attention, it seems it is just human nature to like that and do more of whatever you did that got those nice rewards.   

So over time even good people can loose their sense of direction and begin to get lost .

But , from what I have seen most of them do believe what they are doing is OK .

I think it usually starts out with what may be some sort of real *gift* or an appealing idea  that is a bit sensational , but if this leads to getting some attention and feeling valued and appreciated , then people conclude , this must be real and right because people value and appreciate it.

It seems a lot of these plastics have never acheived a lot of personal success , and their relationship with reality is usually a bit wonky , so they tend to have self esteme issues. They often don't really understand why their lives haven't worked out as they wished or why their relationships turn sour. If they did they wouldn't have set up these problems for themselves. From what I have seen they often tend to have a bit of a persecution complex or bitterness . They also tend to get quite defensive if anyone tries to point out how they set these situations up themselves . These people generally see themselves as  the victim. In other words these people are not empowered in themselves , and they are usually hungry for this.. and clueless how to acheive this in a real way.

Often it seems these people are attracted to the grandious . I guess they feel so bad about themselves , it seems to them they would have to become involved in something really big and sensational to counteract this. These folks rarely want to just become average ordinary good citizens and neighbors.

So they can be quite vulnerable to getting lost in a  fantasy .  These people are also vulnerable to abusing whatever power they may have, to try and get more.

If people with this sort of personality finds a way to create some sort of alternative reality where they are special and valued , and they can attract an audience hungry to believe in something , it can quickly snowball into a full blown plastic shaman.

In the exploiters mind I think it is all usually justified .

They are offering something of value.

Why should they do it for free? Isn't their time worth anything ? They have already felt worthless most of their lives and no way are they going back there.

Money is energy ... 

Often these personal issues get mixed in with cultural assuptions of White prilidge. White privilidge just can't comprehend Native people are real , have a right to control their own culture, resources and political identities , have more knowledge than White people as to how to do this. White privilidge just can't quite understand how it is that Native people do not exist just to serve White people  and have a right to say NO which needs to be respected.

But I guess I believe that at the bottom of every New Age plastic shamon and their followers there is usually just a bunch of confused and lost people.  I like to think if they knew better they would chose better, which I guess is why I like to hope education is a possible solution.

Good luck with your book !  It sounds like it could be a real eye opener, and an entertaining story is probably easier for people to take in than when their personal choices are called into question . I hope you will tell us when you get it done so we can read it !

Quote from: Moma_porcupine on August 07, 2008, 04:52:35 PMPeople who are full on psychopathic personality types seem to have an impairment at a really basic level. It seems they have detached themself from real connections with people and the subtle social feed back we all get which keeps most of us on track. These people have become a law and a reality unto themselves and their only way of being socially connected seems to be through being able to manipulate people , and being able to feel they had some impact on others. With these people it seems the normal two wy feed back loop got broken and they are not impacted by the social feedback they get from others. They don't feel other peoples pain or pleasure and their social identity and sense of personal value seems to be more defined by isolating themself in their own power and perhaps the social payoff is NOT being impacted by anyone.

Excellent summation. I strongly agree. This also applies to those who have lesser, but still active, degrees of sociopathy, such as found in narcissistic personalities.

QuoteWhen it comes to Native traditions , if these people are in a Native community they have peers to continuously provide a social perspective. In a knowledgable community almost everyone who isn't really really old has Elders or at least the collective memory of Elders , so even if someone  is very gifted the community will know and remember many people who were also gifted .so peoples egos tend to be kept in perspective.  Peoples families know them as human beings and remember their mistakes and what sort of a journey they traveled to get where they are. I think all those things help keep traditional Spirtual leaders who live in Ntive communities in balance . Their communty plays a vital role in keeping them real. 

But when these traditions get removed from the context of a native community sooner or later they seem to begin to be influenced by the feedback coming from non native people looking for salvation from reality.

So, so true. First warning sign: check person's current address, and addresses over the past ten years, against that of the Native community they claim to be from. Are they on good terms with their family, community, and others who've known them for their whole lives? If they don't speak to their family, live off the rez, and have nasty things to say about all their exes, beware, even if those who've only known them superficially or for a short period of time have good things to say.

QuoteI have known people who have a real *gift* who get put up on an artificially high pedastle by people who need something to believe in.

Yeah, me too. It's heartbreaking.

QuoteIf a bunch of people begin telling you that you are really really special and start giving you gifts and attention, it seems it is just human nature to like that and do more of whatever you did that got those nice rewards.   

So over time even good people can loose their sense of direction and begin to get lost.

Yes. Then, it seems like, when confronted, they can either show humility and listen to their peers and elders, make restitution and get back on the right path... or they can respond with defensiveness, ego and hostility. We see this over and over on here, often even when someone is just put in "Research Needed." Are they, or their supporters, capable of calmly discussing the situation? Or do they lash out, make personal attacks on those raising the questions, or, even worse, attack the very people who try to intervene and help them?

QuoteI think it usually starts out with what may be some sort of real *gift* or an appealing idea  that is a bit sensational , but if this leads to getting some attention and feeling valued and appreciated , then people conclude , this must be real and right because people value and appreciate it.

This is especially a problem with white frauds - or those of any race who were raised by mainstream white people - who maybe have never experienced anything particularly spiritual or metaphysical. If they grew up as agnostics or with a religion that felt superficial and empty to them, their first exposure to anything real, or even something illusiory that moves them, can be so heady that they blow it out of proportion. They can become grandiose and full of self-importance, comforted by their delusions and even more alienated from reality. Then, without feedback from a solid community, without experienced elders and stable, traditional friends to keep them down to earth, they can get into really dangerous and/or offensive territory.

QuoteIt seems a lot of these plastics have never acheived a lot of personal success , and their relationship with reality is usually a bit wonky , so they tend to have self esteme issues. They often don't really understand why their lives haven't worked out as they wished or why their relationships turn sour. If they did they wouldn't have set up these problems for themselves. From what I have seen they often tend to have a bit of a persecution complex or bitterness . They also tend to get quite defensive if anyone tries to point out how they set these situations up themselves . These people generally see themselves as  the victim. In other words these people are not empowered in themselves , and they are usually hungry for this.. and clueless how to acheive this in a real way. So they can be quite vulnerable to getting lost in a  fantasy .  These people are also vulnerable to abusing whatever power they may have, to try and get more.

Again, you hit it right on the head with this one.

QuoteIf people with this sort of personality finds a way to create some sort of alternative reality where they are special and valued , and they can attract an audience hungry to believe in something , it can quickly snowball into a full blown plastic shaman.

And this also applies to those who aren't plastic - those who may have started out legitimate but who turned to exploiting people out of greed or the emergence of the sort of psychological problems we discuss above.

Again, in these situations, if someone can honestly admit what they did, get help and make amends, perhaps they can be healed; perhaps the community can be saved from further harm. I always hope that in those situations a true return to a trust in the powers can help them, but the offender has to be truly willing to change and to take those steps in honesty and humility.

QuoteThey are offering something of value.

Why should they do it for free? Isn't their time worth anything ? They have already felt worthless most of their lives and no way are they going back there.

Money is energy ... 

And here we have the divide between traditional cultures, traditions of providing for one another's needs in community, vs the white capitalist mindset of just placing a monetary value on everything.

A really horrible but slightly different thing I've seen with the more wealthy nuagers is that, when their lives have been really easy, or they've had an unusual stretch of good luck after struggle, it makes them really keen to adopt the whole "we create our own reality" schtick. The whole Healing for the Already Healthy approach. Superficial remedies for minor problems, very effective for those susceptible to the Placebo Effect.

QuoteOften these personal issues get mixed in with cultural assuptions of White prilidge. White privilidge just can't comprehend Native people are real , have a right to control their own culture, resources and political identities , have more knowledge than White people as to how to do this. White privilidge just can't quite understand how it is that Native people do not exist just to serve White people  and have a right to say NO which needs to be respected.

Yup.

QuoteBut I guess I believe that at the bottom of every New Age plastic shamon and their followers there is usually just a bunch of confused and lost people.  I like to think if they knew better they would chose better, which I guess is why I like to hope education is a possible solution.

Education only works on those who are well-intentioned but confused. The racists and the con-persons... no, education doesn't work on them, only consequences.

Thank you Kathrynne and MP, very insightful thoughts indeed!! 

I haven't been unlucky enough to know well any of the people we discuss here, but I think in general the most succesful con-artists believe to a large extent what they're telling others in order to manipulate them, and that's why they're so successful. Maybe not all the time, maybe just when they need to.

I've been thinking about this all week but finding it difficult. My mind just doesn't want to imagine what it's like to be so cut off from other people that they don't seem like people any more. It's horrifying.

I cannot even begin to imagine what the world looks like to someone like Bill Nelson, but I don't have to because he's made videos. He's not a plastic shaman (yet). He claims, and I think he may well believe, that his fake medical devices can cure cancer. That's why he's wanted in the US for felony fraud.

That is extremely scary when you think about it, Barnaby. 

I agree that they only believe what they're saying within a certain context - what's in it for them?  How far can they push people to believe what they're telling them before those people will turn their backs on them?  How much money can they filch from those same people before the star fades? 

The only fraud I've personally known, David Two Bears, was a simple con artist not wanting to work a steady job. He was good and despite the fact I've been around and lived in other cultures, it took a few months for me to catch on. To his credit, he was not domineering and vicious and actually did a few good things, yet this is like excusing a burglar for not stealing from the point of a gun.

The White frauds almost always have to claim mixed blood and one tip-off right from the start I think is their willingness to accept other Whites as being part Indian too. Indian rip-offs are best dealt with by their own people IMO but non-Indians can certainly alert people to suspicious conduct on their part.