Author Topic: Problematic Pagans and Pagan.com  (Read 8747 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Problematic Pagans and Pagan.com
« on: December 20, 2006, 07:03:48 pm »
Anyone whose been a member for awhile knows I've been urging pagans to form something along the lines of NAFPS for a long time. Frederica in the UPCN thread pointed out this listing below.

Since they don't want their writing reposted, I'll just repost the links they have.

http://www.pagan.com/ProblematicPagans/

"Publicly Accused of Plagiarism and/or Fraud in the Pagan Community
WIlliam "Bill" Wheeler aka Rhuddlwm Gawr & Victoria "Vickie" Wheeler aka "Cerridwen Gawr"
http://www.Pagan.com/Plagiarized/
http://www.geocities.com/ferigold/yttfiles/index.html
http://www.angelfire.com/wv/clanndroen/nithings.html
http://www.twoheadedcat.com/content/article.php?articleID=546
http://www.tylwythteg.co.uk/
http://www.witchipedia.org/index.php?title=Faerie

Janette Copeland
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos300.htm

Sirona Knight
http://www.Pagan.com/ProblematicPagans/SironaKnight.html

Kisma Stepanich
http://www.geocities.com/ferigold/truthfaery/index.html

*******
Publicly Accused of and/or Fraud, Misappropriation, and/or Exploitation in the Native American Indian Community

The "Manataka American Indian Council"
http://aihsc.info/

*******
Publicly Accused of Unacceptable Sexual Conduct in the Pagan Community
Click Here For Pagan.com's Definition of "Unacceptable Sexual Conduct"

Moss Bliss
http://www.paganetwork.net/content/view/45/37/

Bill and Vickie Wheeler
http://www.Pagan.com/Plagiarized/Sexsites.html

*******
Convicted of Crimes of Violence and/or Abuse

Elizabeth Miklosovic
http://www.criminalattorney.com/pages/firm_articles_teacher_sex_assualt_wzzm13.htm

Orren Whiddon
http://www.Pagan.com/WitchTower/Archives/4QF/orren.jpg

Sgt. James Ray Wilson
http://www.Pagan.com/WitchTower/Archives/Materne/index.html

Robin Fletcher
http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_wn.html?a=auvic&id=14843"

To me this is a good start. (I say "start" but the list seems to have been around since 1998, judging by the copyright.) While lists of convicted criminals and plagiarists are important, they avoid the much more problematic issue of frauds who claim to be what they are not. And the whole issue of selling ceremonies and teachings. I may have missed it or just not remembering, but is there any historical source that discusses if it was acceptable for pagan healers, elders, etc, to charge for ceremony? Linda may have said before she knows it wasn't so, but I'm not sure.

Ironically the site is itself run by a pretty problematic person. Some of the older members might remember Betsy Ashby and her Pagan Resource Center. She's a follower of Brooke Edwards AKA Medicine Ego and led a campaign for years to shut down NAFPS, vowing to "spend every dollar she had" because we dared to point out Edwards was a fraud. She also quickly showed herself to be pretty racist, arguing "there was no genocide of Natives." At the samde time she's had running feuds with other pagans.

So anything on that site should not be trusted, IMO, unless you can point to other sources.

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Problematic Pagans and Pagan.com
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2009, 08:22:23 pm »
 Betsy Ashby is an active member on Indianz.com and is known as Guardian over there. Just figured that should be pointed out.

I think that people like her should have whatever nics they are using on any site pointed out so we can be aware of them wherever they go.

Here are some related threads on this site that point out more info and activities by Betsy Ashby AKA Guardian.

 http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1786.0

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1234.0
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 10:10:49 pm by Rattlebone »

Offline NCRunningWolf

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Re: Problematic Pagans and Pagan.com
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 06:25:13 pm »
Bettie Ashby is now posting on alt.native.  Her main target is myself, my deceased husband, and another old lady in Hawaii.  She is taking issue with the fact that I am an UNENROLLED mixed blood, who has never claimed anything but, nor have I received or asked for tribal benefits of any kind. It would appear to me that if she is what she says she is, she would not be targeting old women and dead men. She has demanded information that I have absolutely no intention of giving her.  The sheriff's dept here will not return her calls to check to see if my husband is dead or not.
He committed suicide in July.
Bettie has even called the  Navajo Nation to ask if I am enrolled there.   ::)  Of course not!!! I am not Navajo or  of Navajo descent.
One of my husbands was.
Navajos, like all other Nations, do not recognize Navajo by injection.  ;)
I find her "facts" and "research" to be questionable at best, and outright lies.
Nor have I, in any way, shape, or form, sold ceremony or sought out pagans to delude.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Problematic Pagans and Pagan.com
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 09:02:38 pm »
Bettie Ashby is now posting on alt.native.  Her main target is myself, my deceased husband, and another old lady in Hawaii.  She is taking issue with the fact that I am an UNENROLLED mixed blood, who has never claimed anything but, nor have I received or asked for tribal benefits of any kind. It would appear to me that if she is what she says she is, she would not be targeting old women and dead men. She has demanded information that I have absolutely no intention of giving her.  The sheriff's dept here will not return her calls to check to see if my husband is dead or not.
He committed suicide in July.
Bettie has even called the  Navajo Nation to ask if I am enrolled there.   ::)  Of course not!!! I am not Navajo or  of Navajo descent.
One of my husbands was.
Navajos, like all other Nations, do not recognize Navajo by injection.  ;)
I find her "facts" and "research" to be questionable at best, and outright lies.
Nor have I, in any way, shape, or form, sold ceremony or sought out pagans to delude.


 Non Indians have always struggled to define, who is and who is not Indian. I think the main reason why they struggle at this so badly is because they are trying to define another human being and group of people that they have no right to define in the first place. Plus they are trying to define us based on ideas and concepts that are not our own.

 To exacerbate this very problematic situation is the fact that their attempts to define who we are is for THEIR benefit, and not our own. This definition they seek to define us with, as you already know, has been a key in their plan to erase our existence and take what is ours. Betsy Ashby is no different in my eyes then that of a government agent who put such things in movement long ago, and why should she be any different, as she is a NON trying to define us for what I consider to be dubious reasons.

 I say her motivations are dubious because I do believe one time I seen somebody ask her why she was hunting down exploiters, and if I remember correctly, in her reply was a picture of a dog. So I do believe her motivations for such things are dubious. Now many here may be hunting down frauds and exploiters for perhaps once falling victim to them, but they do not seem to do so with the bad heart that Ashby seems to work from. I think what she does is obviously based on pain that overtook her, and in the end made her heart bad, and the actions she now performs are done in a bad way.

 I have seen some many good words by some on here such as Momma Porcupine and Educated Indian in regards to those who have legitimate claims to being who they are as mixed blooded NDN's, but perhaps do not meet the requirements for tribal enrollment, or maybe come from families that some how have fallen through the cracks.

 I do believe I seen Moma Porcupine say how some come from families with a distant or undocumented Indian ancestry, but regardless it is still a very important part of some people, who they are, how they see themselves etc. I do believe I have read Educated Indian say he see's nothing wrong with even PODIA's coming back and learning things the right way what not.

 Then you have Indian communities themselves they might recognize a person as Indian despite what proof they have or do not have, and regardless of BQ and skin color. In my eyes recognition from a real Indian community, the elders and spiritual leaders within it is something of higher importance then even being tribally enrolled. That as you probably know is because there are people who are just Indian on paper, and nothing more regardless if that paper document is correct about their ancestry or not.

 These are all things that Ashby does not know about, and refuses to recognize even when it is pointed out to her. Of course why should she see things any different when she is just another NON trying to dictate who we are or who we are not.

 As long as any mixed blood person without status recognizes the boundaries that might prevent them from partaking in some things that a tribal government or community says they can not partake in; then there is nothing wrong with their recognition and declaration of their ancestry. I think as long as they have a healthy and respectful attitude about who they are and what they can partake in as far as what is allowed of them by an Indian community, then chances often are that Indian community may come to trust them, and with that trust may allow them to partake in things they were once not allowed to. I have seen such things happen many times when a person has gained the trust and respect of a community and was then seen a member of it by those in that community.

  I mentioned earlier how some are just paper Indians. Well in regards to them, Ashby has no issues with them. Now we could say because she is recognizing tribal sovereignty, but honestly I don't think so. I have seen her say many times that somebody is Indian if her government recognizes it. Of course that government of hers would be the US government, which in regards to the subject of Indian identity, is nothing more then the fox guarding the hen house.

 Maybe this women needs to be reminded that her government allows for self identification on the US census etc. I am sure if reminded of that she would say that needs to be stopped. Of course if such a remark was given by her, it would only point to my earlier point about her being in a bad way, and her actions showing it.

 I have dealt with her in many a heated exchange, and I consider her a mean and hateful individual. In fact I have seen her say things about NDN's and other ethnic groups that I consider to be blatantly racist, and that has been pointed out by many others on here as well.