Author Topic: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio  (Read 47615 times)

Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« on: October 10, 2006, 07:17:37 pm »
Anyone know of the Tallige Cherokee of Ohio? ?  I just received an email about this group. ? The person does not want to be known and is afraid of retaliation from the "chief".

[highlight]"Tallige used to be respectable, at one time Oliver was asked to help them with some kind of project, can't remember now. At that point he was a white man running a company with another man. Oliver absconded with the funds and let the other man hang and Olivers wife just about went to prison over it because she was the secretary. Now the attorney that defended her knew some things about it all and I think he got into trouble over what Oliver did. He spoke to xxx around Christmas and told xxx who was a member of Tallige that he wished to speak to him. He was murdered before he could talk to xxxx. A suspicious gas leak to the home which was not investigated.
Well Oliver started taking over things at Tallige slowly and soon announced he had native blood. He was a woods colt and was adopted by the Collins his mother married later on. He might be native by adoption, but who knows what his blood is. He started running things and if people objected he ran them off too. When asked to vote on certain things he excluded the clan mothers who might be against him.
He opened a bingo hall 501 3 C to help support the tribe. Mostly it supported him and his family and he was sure to throw crumbs to the people. At first he seemed honorable with it, later the people got nothing at all except the indebtedness of the building he bought. I could go on and on.
We reported him two or three years ago to the attorney generals office but they did nothing about the Cherokee Bingo Hall or Oliver.
It was his son Mark that died this past spring in Olivers house of an overdose of drugs. Oliver creamated him immediately and asked everyone for money to pay for it, in other words he wanted to make money off his sons death.
Now I am not sure if he is still doing bingo or not, the hall is still there, he got caught cheating the people at bingo last year. He also started letting in anyone into Tallige and tried to make alliances with the Mohawk and several others. He wanted federal recognition but he did not want to do the work it involves to do so.
His state recognition is a piece of paper from a past governor stating thanks for the work they did to save the Bird Mound near Portsmouth. ? Yet he claims state recognition.
xxxx"-----
Original Message -----
William Graywolf

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4666
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2006, 02:11:44 pm »
Found these, including a statement from Richard Allen.

ETA: There is no evidence of Collins convicted or even charged with misuse of funds.

http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1975&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=3d40ffbb98b371cf80253234bfb63ba6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elmer Boggs" <ebbieboggs@msn.com>
To: "Russ Strong Bow Cooper" <CCooperStrongBow@aol.com>; "JeanMcCoard"<jdmccoard@bright.net>; "Ben Music" Benhase71@msn.com>; "Brent D. Palmer" <bpalmer@uky.edu>; "Charla Tootle" ctoo1@earthlink.net>; "Clifford Mault" <ptvwsl@yahoo.com>; "Connie Savage" <Grandmabear7@webtv.net>; "Dave Lucas" <lucasd@ohio.edu>; "David-Blackhawk Cremeans" <cremeans@marshall.edu>; "Deborah Baker" <debrbaker@hotmail.com>; "Elmer (Kanati) Boggs"
<EbbieBoggs@msn.com>; "Gary McNutt" <mcnut724@cs.com>; "Gloria Boggs" GloriaBoggs50@msn.com>  "Harold Mullins" <hwmullins@zoomnet.net>; "Logan Sharp" <rssharp@dragonbbs.com>; "Mike Holsinger" <Hholsingerg@wmconnect.com>; "Mobycrow" <Mobycrow@aol.com>; "Norbert Johnson" <cheronhaka@msn.com>; "paul adams" <pauadams@yahoo.com>; "Pat little Cloud" <patlittlecloud@adelphia.net>; "raven_moon11"
<raven_moon11@yahoo.com>; "Richard Ash" <richardash@peoplepc.com>; "Robin"
<Mourningdove7@aol.com>; "Rodney Honaker" <rodney.honaker@verizon.net>; "Sciotowhitewolf" <Sciotowhitewolf@aol.com>; "Seneca Indians" <sni@localnet.com>; "SingingHawks" <SingingHawks@aol.com>; "SoarinOwl" <SoarinOwl@aol.com>; "Yosonda Conley" <quess_who_942@yahoo.com>; "tulanappe9" <tulanappe9@yahoo.com>; "twobears98"
<twobears98@hotmail.com>; "Pat Holley" <pholley68@hotmail.com>; "herbbear1941"
<herbbear1941@alltel.net>; "BADGERWOMAN" <BADGERWOMAN@aol.com> Cc: "Chad Smith" <csmith@cherokee.org>; "Richard Allen" <rallen@cherokee.org>; "Attorney General Tim-Meyers"
<tmyers@ag.state.oh.us>; "Cherokee, North Carolina" <daun@awardvacations.com>; "Cherokee Oklahoma" <cherokeelink@cherokee.org>; "Chief Collins" <oliver.collins@verizon.net>; "County Commissioner Opal Spears" <ospears@sciotocounty.net>; "County Commissioner Thomas Reiser"
<treiser@sciotocounty.net>; "County Commissioner Vernal G. Riffe III" <sriffe@sciotocounty.net>; "Dr. Will (ECSIUT) Goin" <TayGoinRes@aol.com>; "FBI Cincinnati" <colra.cincinnati@fbi.gov>; "Frank Gerlach" <lawyergg@zoomnet.net>; "George Morgan" <sysop@nvi.net>; "Governor.Taft"
<Governor.Taft@das.state.oh.us>; "Office of Auditor of State Ohio" <Webmaster@auditor.state.oh.us>; "Ohio Council of Churches" <rtollefson@ohcouncilchs.org>; "Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell" <guide@sos.state.oh.us>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 10:34 PM
Subject: Rumors

> Osiyo (Greetings) to all,
> If you get this e-mail by mistake and chose not to want it, you are free to > destroy it.
>
> I feel this issue is important enough to inform all Indian People > everywhere.
> The Rumor Mill, along with Greed, is getting a good start! > Now, rumors are going around that the leaders of the Native American > Alliance of Ohio has called a meeting for all Indians in Ohio to
choose > representatives to speak for all the Indians in Ohio on legislative issues. > These people are not qualified to speak for our people.
>
> Let it be known to all, that the Tallige Cherokee Indian People do not > recognize the "Native American Alliance of Ohio" or their so called leaders, Oliver Collins, Barbara Crandall and their membership. They have been trying to be the speaker for all Native Americans in Ohio
for several years.
> I believe and feel very strongly that the lack of leadership in Southern Ohio has been our down fall. What makes these people think they can now speak for all Ohio Indian People?. They are not qualified to speak for our people on any issue.
> They can call for all the meetings they want for the "Native American Alliance of Ohio", but remember what these same people did for the "First Nation of Ohio". They tried to speak for us then and we all lost
everything. 
> Do they think the Shawnee will come in and build them a casino? The Shawnee people are not stupid, they know how to run their own business affairs. The Native American Alliance of Ohio will not speak for me and our people. The Indian Centers of Columbus, Ohio would be a better choice.
> Other Rumors;
> Rumors going around; Money being paid under the table to some officials to look the other way.
> Rumors going around; claim that Oliver Collins and Barbara Crandall co-chair the NAAO.
> Rumors going around; claim Oliver Collins claims to be over all Native Americans in Southern Ohio
> Rumors going around; claim Barbara Crandall claims to be over the Newark, Ohio Native Americans
> Rumors going around; Barbara Crandall claims to have been a member of Tallige for several years.
> Rumors going around; Oliver Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society, but later claimed to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Nation.
>
> The following was taken from an e-mail from Dr. Richard L. Allen:
 
> The Overhill Villages are a creation of the anthropologists/archaeologists to identify groupings of Cherokee and were never acknowledged as such by the Cherokee. It has only been within recent years that individual such as Oliver Collins, Hu Gibbs, Richard Paugh, Barbara Crandall, et al have claimed to be descended from forgotten Cherokees called the Overhill band.
> However, none of these individuals have never been able to establish any legitimate connection to any of the three legitimate Cherokee governments.
>
> It seems that some groups are aggressively appropriating an American Indian identity. Some are attempting to repatriate the bones of our ancestors to gain legitimacy with other non-Indians. In 1987, the Ohio group did conduct a "reburial ceremony" of remains (probably ancient Shawnee remains)
that were turned over to them by officials of the Scioto County government. The group claimed to have conducted a traditional Cherokee reburial ceremony.
A videotape of news reports chronicles the event including the forty-seven,  small caskets that are passed down by women, one to another, into a community burial pit. In the center of the pit, a fire has been built "to smudge" the burial area and the remains as explained by Oliver Collins.
> Collins introduced Hugh Gibbs as the Principal Chief of the Etowah Cherokee Tribe (another bogus group) with whom Tallige Fire claims association. Gibbs oversees the re-interment "ceremony." According to Collins, Mr. Gibbs is a fullblood Cherokee medicine man. During this same time and on videotape, Mr. Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society, but now claims to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Tribe.
> Elmer Kanati Boggs
-----

It's not clear where Allen's statement ends, or if part of the end of statement became Boggs's words again.
Also this:
------
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thecherokeenationofohio/message/323
Osiyo everyone my name is Matthew Jay Collins. I am writting to you because there are some frauds in Ohio. They are saying there the real Tallige Cherokee Nation this is a lie. There saying that there's
another chief this is a lie. Oliver Collins is the real uku and is not up for realection for four more years. The council heads have not asked him to step down this is another lie. I am letting you know this so that Cherokee people in Ohio are not missled or lied to.
Wado and sta-yu be strong.
-----
The message is dated Apr 16 2003.

Offline littlefeatherspiri

  • Posts: 34
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2006, 11:24:04 pm »
nope but here is some research for ya.
http://www.portsmouthohio.info/new_page_9.htm


The Columbus Dispatch

June 18, 1986

Indians stand their ground in battle for ancestors

By Mike Harden

It is an unlikely site for a battleground, a tiny swatch of Scioto County land ringed with foxtail and vetch, shadowed by hickory and oak. A few miles west of Portsmouth, just above the Ohio River, it is

the former Site of a county old folks home and the future site of a pair of homes for the mentally retarded. But the controversy broiling about that small patch of real estate deals less with what is to be built on the land than what exists beneath it.

 ?

The Adena Indians were there, perhaps sometime around the birth of Christ. They were followed, quite likely, by the Ft. Ancient. More recently, it is thought that the Shawnee used the site. For years, the land has been

listed on the Ohio Historical Society’s inventory of archaeological sites, and for years it has been conventional wisdom around Portsmouth that it is an area rich in Indian artifacts.

 ?

AS RECENTLY as May, artifacts and - so some witnesses claim - human remains from the site were displayed at a local exhibit by Indian artifact collectors.

 ?

That showing did not escape the attention of one Oliver Collins, a 47-year old medical supply salesman from Portsmouth, but more important, the leader of the Tassel Clan of Cherokee descendants. It was Collins' ancestors, known as the Overhill band of Cherokees, who escaped the infamous "Trail of Tears" expulsion to Oklahoma

by fleeing instead to Kentucky.

 ?

Some 200 Scioto County residents claim blood lineage to the Cherokee and have launched a fight against Portsmouth attorney and amateur archaeologist David Kuhn who, with the blessing of Scioto County commissioners and the Ohio Historical Society,

is conducting a dig on the disputed land.

 ?

"How would you like it," Collins asks, "if we dug up your

grandfather to find out how tall he was, how short, what kind of molar damage he had because of poor corn grinding, what kind of clothing he had and jewelry? "It would be as if we came up to Greenlawn Cemetery and started digging up graves. They'd throw us in jail."

 ?

KUHN SEES the matter in a different light. Of the Cherokee group, he contends, "These people cannot show any direct descent or cultural affinity to these people," to the Indians who once inhabited the site.When asked what the site had yielded, Kuhn suggested that it was little

more than arrowheads, bone tools, some artifacts, referring questions on the issue of human remains to Martha Otto, the Ohio Historical Society’s curator of archaeology. It is the society that issues permits for archaeological exploration and which apparently felt compelled to

ally itself with Kuhn after Scioto County commissioners gave him the green light to dig.

 ?

Otto acknowledged not only that human remains had been taken from the site, remains which are now in the society's possession, but additionally, "There were some taken out before the dig began. "There have been people picking up stuff from that site for years."

 ?

The Cherokee group wants it halted. Members have written letters to the local paper, launched a petition drive, solicited the aid of the American Indian Cultural Center in Akron. They want the human remains returned to their burial site. Period.

 ?

Standing in the midst of the dig Site, Collins protested, "You tell me this is an archaeological dig. This is grave robbery, defilement."

 ?

So far, the protests of Collins and his Cherokee friends have failed to halt the dig, but they may recently have found an ally in one Bill Ogg, chairman of the Scioto County commissioners. ? SAID OGG, "We don't need anymore Indian skulls in your house or my house," indicating that he supports the re-interment of the

remains once they've been removed from the path of the bulldozers that will excavate the construction site.

 ?

The final resolution of the matter remains to be seen.

 ?

Critics of the Cherokee group would seem to suggest that these contemporary protesters cannot speak for the Adena and Ft. Ancient, the Shawnee. Such logic, applied to the clergy today would empty the pulpits of ministers whose legitimacy is based on a spiritual affinity with a prophet 2,000 years dead and to whom they would have some

difficulty tracing their lineage. ? As for the Cherokee protesters, it seems to this observer that they are speaking out for their long dead Indian brethren if only because they are among the few living people
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by littlefeatherspiri »

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 10:50:47 am »
I have decided to put this here in its whole form.
I live in Ohio the tallige group are fraud(s).
There are some other groups this site is missing.
and yes more fraud groups in ohio.
they are :
Alleghenny Nation (Ohio Band)
Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band
Piqua Sept of Ohio Shawnees
N.E. Miami Inter- Tribal Council
Mekoce Shawnee
Munsee Delaware Nation, USA
Munsee Delaware Indian Nation-USA
Tallige Fire Nation
True East Of The River Free Shawnee
True East Of The River Shawnee
Saponi Nation of Ohio

Fraud groups with hippie type leaders.


Creating Identity at Indian Expense: Public Ignorance, Private Gain

Presented by

Richard L. Allen, Ed.D.
Native Stories and Their Keepers: Telling the Public

Sequoyah Research Center Symposium

University of Arkansas at Little Rock November 15-17, 2001
The sovereignty and Jurisdiction of this Government shall extend over the country within the boundaries above described, and the lands therein are, and shall remain, the common property of the Nation…whenever any…citizen or citizens shall remove with their effects out of the limits of this Nation, and become citizens of any other Government, all their rights and privileges as citizens of this Nation shall cease (Constitution of the Cherokee Nation, 1827).
I believe we should have a monthly Sweat Bath and I believe we should purify, all the Blood, in our Nation's citizens to be truly, Native American and Cherokee AND SOON---We must start calling ourselves Cherokees in today's society. It is time to come out of the closet and make ourselves known to the dominant society--OUT IN PUBLIC! In 1990 when the next United States Census is taken, we must say on the forms that we are Cherokee. We must change our Race on all documents, such as, Drivers License, Social Security Number, Birth Certificates, etc. (Tallige Cherokee Nation Newsletter, ca. 1988).

Whites masqueraded as American Indians during the now infamous Boston Tea Party and on other occasion as noted in the following: "In June, 1776, a British fleet…with a large…military force, attacked Charleston, South Carolina, both by land and sea, and simultaneously a body of Cherokee, led by Tories in Indian disguise, came down from the mountains and ravaged the exposed frontier of South Carolina, killing and burning as they went. After a gallant defense by the garrison of Charleston the British were repulsed, whereupon their Indian and Tory allies withdrew (Mooney, 1982)." Therefore, appropriation of an American Indian identity by non-Indians is not a new phenomenon
However, the more recent phenomenon of non-Indian individuals and groups seeking to establish a new tribe of Cherokee is disconcerting and recent efforts seem more aggressive and somewhat bizarre.

Cherokee people are familiar with those innocuous stories from individuals claiming descent from an American Indian. Most of these individuals are content to share this information and seem to have no idea as to how they might have American Indian ancestry in their family background. So they usually reference that nebulous and fertile Cherokee princess grandmother story that we have all come to know and anticipate.

Vine Deloria, Jr., (1969) was confronted with this issue during his tenure as the Executive Director of the National Congress of American Indians. He states, "It was a rare day when some white didn't visit my office and proudly proclaim the he or she was of Indian descent. Cherokee was the most popular tribe…and many people placed Cherokees anywhere from Maine to Washington State . Mohawk, Sioux, and Chippewa were next in popularity…eventually I came to understand their need to identify as partially Indian and…I would confirm their wildest stories about their Indian ancestry and would add a few tales of my own hoping that they would be able to accept themselves someday and leave us alone."

Cherokees, often hear of grandmother's "high cheek bones" or "dark complexion" (meaning grandma was a brunette) in reference to claims about grandmother being an American Indian. These folk offer similar versions of their claim to Cherokee heritage that sounds something like this: "My great-great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess; or, claims that they are the descendents of Chief John Ross or Sequoyah. Over the years, the "Cherokee princess" story has provided great sport for members of other tribes. It seems that wherever a Cherokee travels, there always "Cherokee relatives" to be found and it would seem that John Ross, Sequoyah and this nebulous but fertile Cherokee Princess Grandmother were the only Cherokees to procreate.

Non-Indian Individuals making overt claims to American Indian heritage are usually labeled as "wannabes" or "newagers." These terms are often used interchangeably to describe these two groupings, but the terms actually refer to two distinctly different behaviors. It seems that newagers are seeking a different manner of defining themselves spiritually and seem to be drawn to the ritual and ceremony associated with American Indian spirituality. Some wannabes are intent and persistent in their attempt to appropriate American Indian identity and to be recognized as such.

Stepping to the beat of a different drum, so to speak, are the hobbyists (derived from the word hobby). Hobbyists give new meaning to the term "weekend warriors." On weekends, one may find hobbyists dancing at a legitimate intertribal dance or at a hobbyist powwow. A hobbyist powwow is one in which there are no American Indians participating. Hobbyists are known to wear authentic and expensive American Indian regalia usually of the Plains Indian design. On rare occasion, one may observe an individual wearing a turban and hunting jacket fashionable in the 19th century among prominent Cherokees. Portraits of Sequoyah, Spring Frog and George Lowery depict them in this mode of dress. American Indians understand that hobbyists are only playing Indian and usually on weekends. The hobbyists are innocuous, although, sometimes offensive but not unlike grownup Boys Scouts.

IDENTITY AND CULTURAL APPROPRIATION

Individuals seeking to re-invent themselves as Cherokees do so in several ways. Ironically, a blatantly white person is perfectly capable of appropriating an American Indian identity, albeit stereotypical, through a concerted effort. First, one must project an aura or a physical image of an American Indian by dressing in buckskins, beads, turquoise, chokers, feathers, and wearing one's (dyed) hair either in braids or pulled back in a ponytail. It is not likely that any of these folks speak a tribal language so they assume an Indian-sounding name such as Richard "Flies High and Eats Pie" Allen. Once the name has been established, a few Cherokee words mixed with some Lakota will do Osiyo and Mitakuye Ayasin. Thereafter, they may affect an accent or an "Indi'n" way of speaking. Actually more an affectation of Hollywood Indian dialogue reminiscent of Tonto and the Lone Ranger, "Ummh, Kemosabe."

To further develop the image, one must be seen doing Indian-oriented activities, such as: making and/or selling "Indian" arts and crafts or selling tapes of Indian stories usually appropriated from an Indian mythology book. Several "storytellers" favor Myths of the Cherokee and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokees by James Mooney. One must also attend or participate in Indian dances (pow-wows) where everyone is welcome. Others conduct "sacred" ceremonies usually "validated" by the burning of "sacred herbs" such as sage, cedar, tobacco or sweetgrass--called smudging.

Thus, a mythical (mystical also works) "American Indian" identity has been appropriated by design through stereotypical dress, affected and exaggerated Hollywood Indian-English language and Indian-oriented activity. Deloria (p.3) suggest that "(w)hites claiming Indian blood…tend to reinforce mythical beliefs about Indians. All but one person I met who claimed Indian blood claimed it on their grandmother's side...A male ancestor has too much of the aura of the savage warrior, the unknown primitive, the instinctive animal, to make him a respectable member of the family tree. But a young Indian princess? Ah, there was royalty for the taking…And royalty has always been an unconscious but all-consuming goal of the European immigrant."

SHAMANISM

In 1979, it appears that Geary Hobson coined a term "white-shaman" to describe a literary device employed by non-Indian authors and poets that assumed an "Indian personae" that seems to have relevance to a different phenomenon. Hobson (p. 102) defines the term "white-shaman" as a "growing number of small-press poets of generally white, Euro-Christian American background, who in their poems assume a persona of the shaman, usually in the guise of an American Indian medicine man."

In an essay exposing New Age Hucksterism, Churchill (1988) states that "scarcely an Indian in the United States has not been confronted by some hippie-like apparition wishing to teach crystal-healing methods to Navajo grandmothers, claiming to be a
pipe-carrier reincarnated from a seventeenth-century Cheyenne warrior, and usually assumed 'Indian name' like 'Pretty Painted Arrow.' Needless to say, this circumstance has in turn spawned a whole new clot of hucksters such as 'Sun Bear' (Napoleon LaDuke, a Chippewa) who--along with his non-Indian consort cum business manager, 'Wabun' (Marlise James)--has been able to make himself wealthy over the past few years by forming (on the basis of suitable 'membership fees') what he calls 'the Bear Tribe, and the selling of ersatz sweatlodge and medicine wheel ceremonies to anyone who wants to play Indian for a day and can afford the price of admission."

Sun Bear passed from this life in 1992 but an internet search for the Sun Bear Medicine Society, finds a site that offers a variety of services and claims that " the Bear Tribe honors the Native tradition from which Sun Bear came, its cross-cultural teachings are based…(on) the philosophies of worldwide earth cultures as they relate to contemporary society, personal vision, personal responsibility, self-reliance, self-generated ceremony…We strive to achieve this through our programs, books and other items. A 1994 catalog lists ceremonial herbs (sage, sweet grass, tobacco, kinickinick and abalone shells for use with your smudge mix), herbal salves and tinctures; T-shirts; calendars; a Medicine Woman Tarot Set or a Native American Tarot Set; books bearing various topical connections to shamanism, medicine men and women, medicine wheel, sacred ceremonies and sites and so forth. The Bear Tribe is specifically oriented toward non-Indians who have a desire to seek or purchase a different sort of spirituality. This has given rise to speculation among some American Indians that our spirituality is the new frontier.

Churchill points to Carlos Casteneda, Ruth Beebe Hill, Lynn Andrews and Jamake Highwater as classic examples of this "New Age Hucksterism." All have authored books on American Indian subject matter of questionable integrity. Highwater (aka, J. Marks) authored several successful books and produced a PBS documentary before being exposed as a non-Indian.
Ironically, Ward Churchill's claim to membership in the Cherokee Nation or the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians is as questionable as those whom he has skewered.

Churchill has written extensively about American Indians and is the author several books on American Indian subject matter. For years, it has been rumored that Churchill, a co-founder of the Colorado American Indian Movement, is not an American Indian. Several years ago, Churchill was an invited speaker at the Symposium on the American Indian at Northeastern State University , Tahlequah , Oklahoma . Reportedly, he attended a United Keetoowah Band Council meeting at that time and was issued an honorary membership that has given rise to his claim to be a Keetoowah. The Registration Department of the Cherokee Nation indicates that Churchill picked up an enrollment packet from them in 1992 but that it was never returned. The Cherokee Nation has contracted many services offered by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the determination of one's degree of Cherokee blood is one of those services.

The Cherokee Nation is responsible for the issuance of the Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood (CDIB). One must be able to provide documentation that one's ancestor(s) was listed on the Dawes Commission roles prior to seeking membership in either the Cherokee Nation or the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians.

Rose (1992) states that one may find these whiteshaman "at bogus 'medicine wheel' gatherings, ersatz sweatlodge ceremonies, and other fad events using vaguely Indian motifs. You will not usually find them around Indians at genuine Indian events. Even Sun Bear...a Chippewa by 'blood,' admitted to Colorado AIM that he never participated in or attended bona fide native activities. Given the nature of his transgressions against the cultural integrity of his people, he felt--undoubtedly accurately--that he'd be 'unwelcome.'"

Contrary to Rose's statement, one may find wannabe shaman at "pow-wows" or other "Indian" gatherings. American Indians identify these charlatans by their tendency to dress in costumes that are easily recognizable such as Tandy-style buckskins and cheap, gaudy beads. In reality, the image is a stereotypical and pitiful attempt to look like an American Indian. Some attend traditional American Indian ceremonies not only to observe, but for validation among other wannabes where they boldly claim to be "pipe-carriers" and wear all the appropriate accoutrements (tobacco pouch and carry a pipe bag). They may burn sage, sweetgrass, tobacco or cedar in a bogus ceremonial activity they call smudging. Many of the ritualistic mannerisms in these ceremonies are the invention of imagination not recognizable to the tribe with whom these individuals claim affiliation.

For example, at 9:00 A.M. , May 21, 1994 , at Tonkawa , Oklahoma , descendents of Chief Joseph's Band represented by the Nez Perce Veterans Society came to Oklahoma to perform a ceremony. The Nez Perce Veterans memorial service was to honor the members of Chief Joseph's Band that were removed to Indian Territory in the 1870's. Oklahoma tribal leaders and American Indian veterans were invited to this ceremony. As a veteran, I was asked to attend this gathering on behalf of Principal Chief Wilma Mankiller. The invitation noted that the memorial would include "a pipe ceremony." When I arrived, I noted an individual sitting at the head table wearing a turban-like headpiece with feathers attached here and there with matching ribbon shirt (somewhat similar to 19th Century Cherokee dress), a tobacco or medicine pouch hanging from his neck onto his chest and a plains-style pipe in front of him on the table. Later, he introduced himself as "Two Rabbits, a Cherokee spiritual leader, pipe-carrier and member of the Bear clan."

After the ceremony, I confronted him about his claim of being a Cherokee spiritual leader, pipe-carrier and member of the Bear clan as not true. He stammered something about being given these rights as a spiritual leader by his great-great grandmother who was from " Alabama or Tennessee or Kentucky , he really wasn't sure." Upon further inquiry, he stated that he was not "referring to membership in the family clans but the 'medicine clan' of the Cherokee." Contrary to "Mr. Two Rabbits" statement, traditional Cherokees come from the various "family clans," there are no special "medicine clans." Cherokee traditionalists do not refer to themselves as "pipe-carriers" nor would a Cherokee carry a plains-style pipe. Incidentally, the pipe he introduced into the ceremony could not be lighted, so it was passed from one American Indian veteran to another until it had completed the circle. Thus, the ceremony to honor the Nez Perce was infiltrated by a white shaman who presented himself as a pipe carrier. (Allen, 1994).

Just about every American Indian tribe has used the sweat lodge for spiritual, ceremonial or social activity at some time or another. Sweat lodge usage would differ from tribe to tribe. The sweat lodge as a contemporary form of therapy in alcohol and substance abuse treatment programs has gained acceptance. Thus, for American Indians seeking either an alternative or to augment the twelve-step program of Alcoholics Anonymous, the sweat lodge serves a very useful purpose. Thereby, the sweat lodge has gained a renewed status as an experiential and spiritual form of therapy among American Indian treatment programs. Sweat lodge activities have appeared on the agenda of several national Indian health conferences and at mental health conferences hosted by non-Indians.

However, as noted earlier, there are those who would conduct ersatz sweat lodge ceremonies for a price and many are non-Indian. Traditional Indians do not conduct spiritual ceremonies for personal profit nor do they train non-Indians to conduct spiritual ceremonies or give them the authority to do so. In other words, American Indian spirituality cannot be purchased nor can rights to conduct such ceremony be delegated.

THE SECOND COMING OF THE NEW INDIAN MEDICINE SHOW

Miscegenation results in offspring of varying shades of skin color and, in America , the diversity of racial and ethnic combinations is a reality. Historically, "passing" refers to the process by which a member of one ethnic community passes (poses) as a member of different ethnic community. It commonly referred to one who identified or accepted identification as a white person although also having a black ancestry. It is also notable that some mixed-blood, tri-racial Indians-Blacks-Whites simply passed for white by claiming to be "black Irish" or "black Dutch." Thus, any features such as dark hair and complexion could be explained away.
However, the recent phenomenon of non-Indians masquerading as American Indians seems not to have its basis in miscegenation It appears that non-Indian people posed as American Indian medicine people as in the "Indian medicine shows" and the vending of "snake oil" in the early nineteenth century. Vogel (1970) states that the "most dramatic promotional stunt in the vending of alleged Indian remedies was the medicine show, which once ranked with the circus and the Chautauqua as a seasonal relief to the monotony of small-town existence....these spectacles toured the country with bands of 'real live Indians'....Audiences were treated to an exhibition of 'war dances' and other sights of the 'wild west,' followed by speeches of glib pitchmen offering for sale 'genuine' native medicines."

Folk medicine developed over the years and endures in most societies. Many of the immigrants brought folk beliefs and medicines to these shores some of which are still employed in America . Vogel (p.127) notes that European "folk practices reveal much that is traceable to medieval witchcraft cults. Moreover, many of the formulas to be recited to ward off bad fortune or bring good luck, or to cure ailments, are simply prayers. So are the sacred formulas of the Cherokee, with the only real difference being in the name of the deity to whom the prayers are addressed."

A news story carried in Indian Country Today (August 21, 1995) underscores the harm that can come from these charlatans pretending to be American Indian healers. In his article, Melmer reports that a Wilkes-Barre , Pennsylvania man who claimed to be a medicine or holy man was convicted of indecent assault and corruption of a minor while performing a ceremony. It seems that "David Two Wolves Smith headed a group that he initiated called the "Eastern Intertribal Alliance of Native Americans." Melmer reports that Smith was convicted of ordering a 12-year-old girl to remove her bathing suit while he performed a cleansing ceremony using sage water Indian Country Today gathered evidence that refuted Smith's claims to be either a medicine or holy man and even to his alleged tribal affiliation.
It seems that some non-Indians do re-invent themselves as American Indians and assume new identities. As mentioned previously, a first step is the assumption of romanticized (Anglicized) versions of American Indian-sounding names such as David "Two Wolves" Smith. Smith admitted to holding the girl during this activity. The tragedy, here, is that this young girl will always believe that she was sexually assaulted by an American Indian medicine man a holy person.

TRIBE, CULT, OR 501 (C) (3) INCORPORATION

The Cherokee Nation receives numerous reports of individuals and groups who claim to be descendants of a "lost band, clan or a whole new tribe of Cherokee." Many claim to be descended from Cherokees who escaped the forced removal and were hidden by sympathetic white people. Here is where they seem to stretch the story a little as they "are just now making this known, publicly." What was once an individual charade has now become a group endeavor and group members identify with a bogus clan or band of the Cherokee. Others re-invent themselves through historic research and make claims to be descended from Cherokees who escaped the trail of tears or that they are a band of Cherokee who removed themselves from the Cherokee country in the early eighteenth century and have been forgotten by all other Cherokees.

A group that identifies as the Southeastern Cherokee Confederacy and has a membership that extends throughout several southeastern states invents new and interesting clans that have never been a part of the Cherokee clan system. Gaile Fee, a Kentucky woman, calls herself "Dark Wind." She claims to be the chief of the Otter Band of the Southeastern Cherokee Confederacy. A witness for David "Two Wolves" Smith identified himself as "Eagle Eye" Ragland and member of the Spotted Pony Band of the Southeastern Cherokee Confederacy.
Although, these individuals and groups attempt to "legitimatize" themselves to gain the recognition of local or state government, seldom do they approach a legitimate tribal government. In rare instances, they may approach a tribal government, but usually in an effort to seek legitimacy by association. The Cherokee Nation has received letters requesting mentoring from such groups; others groups have come to the Cherokee Nation wishing to be introduced in council meetings; and, more recently the internet allows them immediate correspondence with the Cherokee Nation.

A group in Ohio provides an excellent example of how these groups are proceeding to appropriate the identity and culture of American Indians. In a document entitled "A Talking Leaf from the Principal Chief" to members who have called themselves "The Tallige Fire Association, Inc.; "The Tallige Fire Cherokee Nation;" and, now, "The Tallige Cherokee Tribe," their leader states: "We must start calling ourselves Cherokees in today's society. It is time to come out of the closet and make ourselves known to the dominant society--OUT IN PUBLIC! In 1990 when the next United States Census is taken, we must say on the forms that we are Cherokee. We must change our Race on all documents, such as, Drivers License, Social Security Number, Birth Certificates, etc."

Hagan (1993) suspects that the dramatic increase of individuals claiming to be American Indian since the 1960 census is not only the result of self-identification but that "census figures have been inflated by the 'wannabes,' those claiming to be Indian with no apparent justification. Some are motivated by the hope of financial gain, but probably most seek some psychological benefit by identifying with an ethnic group now being portrayed in a favorable manner. Even more of these ersatz Indians will emerge as the success of Dances with Wolves encourages Hollywood to produce more movies romanticizing Native Americans."

It seems that some groups are aggressively appropriating an American Indian identity. Some are attempting to repatriate the bones of our ancestors to gain legitimacy with other non-Indians. In 1987, the Ohio group did conduct a "reburial ceremony" of remains (probably ancient Shawnee remains) that were turned over to them by officials of the Scioto County government. The group claimed to have conducted a traditional Cherokee reburial ceremony. A videotape of news reports chronicles the event including the forty-seven, small caskets that are passed down by women, one to another, into a community burial pit. In the center of the pit, a fire has been built "to smudge" the burial area and the remains as explained by Oliver Collins. Collins introduced Hugh Gibbs as the Principal Chief of the Etowah Cherokee Tribe (another bogus group) with whom Tallige Fire claims association. Gibbs oversees the re-interment "ceremony." According to Collins, Mr. Gibbs is a fullblood Cherokee medicine man. During this same time and on videotape, Mr. Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society, but now claims to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Tribe.

The Cherokee Nation Council Members received a letter dated September 5, 1995 from an Elmer Boggs, Public Relations, of this same Ohio group that call themselves the Tallige Cherokee Tribe. Mr. Boggs' letter is reminiscent of Hollywood dialogue: "Greetings Tribal Council Members and Brothers and Sisters, We come in peace." He explains that there are "some very scandalous rumors... circulating... about our organization...But we, the Cherokee people are the first to be doubted, as our history shows, even from our own people." Boggs included a denial of any affiliation with the "Loyal Shawnee of Oklahoma , The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, or the Cherokee Nation of Cherokee, North Carolina ." He notes that "The Tallige Cherokee Nation was formally started in 1972 with just a handful of people...incorporated in February of 1988 as The Tallige Fire Association, Inc. We are a non-profit 501 (C) (3) organization....One of our goals is Federal recognition."

In 1978, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) published the "Procedure for Establishing That An American Indian Group Exists as an Indian Tribe." The BIA created the Branch of Acknowledgement and Research to implement the regulations. The regulations for the Federal acknowledgement process are codified under 25 CFR Part 83. During the twenty-three years that this process has been in existence, there have been nearly as many hearings to provide oversight of this process. Understandably, Congress wants a tangible outcome for the money invested. In essence, Congress wants to know why more tribes have not been acknowledged than have been. The Federal acknowledgement process places the burden for proving that a group is an Indian tribe is on the petitioning group. The petitioning group has to prove without a doubt that they are a legitimate tribal entity based on the criteria established in 25 CFR Part 83.

Regardless, this Ohio group has created an identity that is bogus and did apply for ANA funds. Jonathan Taylor, former Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of Cherokee opposed funding in a letter addressed to the Administration for Native Americans. In this same letter, Taylor repudiated the group calling themselves the Etowah Cherokee Nation for questionable fund-raising activities. Hugh Gibbs claims to be the principal chief of the Etowah Cherokee Nation and is known to have sold membership in his group.

The 1980 census lists 43 individuals claiming to be Etowah Cherokees. Additionally, there were 78 individuals whom were listed as Tuscola Cherokees. Neither of these groups is listed in the 1990 census. However, of particular interest are the 3,591 individuals who sprang from nowhere to become the Echota Cherokees. The group is active in the southeast and particularly in Alabama . The ultimate irony is that even though American Indians do not accept or acknowledge these groups and despise their attempts to emulate real American Indian people, white people readily accept them because they dress and act these stereotypical roles as perpetuated by Hollywood .

Hill and Lujan (1984) discuss the implication of externally imposed stereotypes as perpetuated by Hollywood . "With no single image to draw upon, the dominant culture has often simply stereotyped all tribes. A major contributor to the perpetuation of these stereotypes has been the film industry. Its romanticized versions of the American Indian provide a surrogate identity which, in turn, creates a frustrating dilemma for the individual…In reality, one's tribal affiliation provides a true source of identity, but this may bring the individual into conflict with other tribal identities or create an impression of being something less than a real Indian."

LEGITIMATE CHEROKEE GOVERNMENT

The undersigned Chiefs and Warriors, for themselves and all parts of the Cherokee nation, do acknowledge themselves and the said Cherokee nation, to be under the protection of the said United States of America, and no other sovereign whosoever; and they also stipulate that the said Cherokee nation will not hold any treaty with any foreign power, individual state, or with individuals of any state (Treaty of Holston, 1791).
It is evident that Congress guarded against both foreign and state encroachment and clearly specified that the Cherokee Nation never to "hold any treaty" with any sovereign government but the United States . Clearly the Congress holds plenary power to acknowledge Indian nations & emdash; a power not shared with foreign countries nor delegated to individual states

Cherokee history is well documented. The Cherokee people have a language and cultural attributes that are clearly derived from an ancient ancestry. We know who we are.
The Cherokee people have always had a good laugh when confronted with an individual who claims descent from a Cherokee princess grandmother, what was once laughable is now serious and may constitute an attack on tribal sovereignty. Any claim to being a new band or clan of the Cherokee tribe is met with skepticism and derision. Numerous individuals and groups ranging over 33 states have claimed to be members of some sort of "Cherokee tribe."
The Cherokee Nation was removed into Indian Territory in 1838-39. We know that there were Cherokees who escaped into the mountains of North Carolina and joined with those Cherokees exempted from the removal. They are now organized as the Eastern Band of Cherokee.
The United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee derived from within the Cherokee Nation and received federal recognition under the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of 1936. Thus, there are only three legitimate Cherokee tribal governments in the United States .
These three Cherokee Tribes separated by geography or politics do have a common ancestry, social interaction and history. It has been over one hundred-sixty years since the Cherokees were forcibly removed to Indian Territory . For anyone to believe that any Cherokee group escaped the removal and stayed isolated for that long is ludicrous. There are no "lost Cherokee." One may as well suggest that they have been hiding in the "Lost Valley of Ganges" along with several prehistoric dinosaurs and Richard Boone.

CHEROKEE NATION CITIZENSHIP

On July 12, 1839 , in an Act of Union, the Cherokees re-unite in Indian Territory bringing together those Cherokees (Western Cherokees) who had removed to the Indian Territory under the provisions of the treaties of 1817 and 1819 between the United States and the Cherokee Nation. The Western Cherokee had become a separate community from the main body of the Cherokee Nation (Eastern Cherokees), but the treaties were with the "whole Cherokee Nation" and not separate entities.

The Act of Union states that "Whereas our Fathers have existed, as a separate and distinct Nation, in the possession and exercise of the essential and appropriate attributes of sovereignty, from a period extending into antiquity, beyond the records of memory of man: And WHEREAS these attributes, with the rights and franchises which they involve, remain still in full force and virtue, as do also the national and social relations of the Cherokee people to each other and to the body politic…Therefore, we, the people composing the Eastern and Western Cherokee Nation, in National Convention assembled, by virtue of our original and unalienable rights, do hereby solemnly and mutually agree to form ourselves into one body politic, under the style and title of the Cherokee Nation.

The Constitution of the Cherokee Nation, 1839, adopted in the Indian Territory was formulated on the previous Constitution of 1827 with minor revision. Cherokee citizenship addressed in Section 2 of the Constitution of 1827 was reiterated in the 1839 constitution: The sovereignty and Jurisdiction of this Government shall extend over the country within the boundaries above described, and the lands therein are, and shall remain, the common property of the Nation…whenever any…citizen or citizens shall remove with their effects out of the limits of this Nation, and become citizens of any other Government, all their rights and privileges as citizens of this Nation shall cease (Constitution of the Cherokee Nation, 1827). Thereafter, the Cherokee National Council did pass several legislative acts regarding citizenship within the Cherokee Nation. The Constitution of 1839 served the Cherokee Nation into the turn of the century when the federal government attempted to terminate the Cherokee Nation with the Dawes Severalty Act of 1887 and the Curtis Act of 1898. In other words, the Cherokee are well aware of their own history and form of governance.
On the 13th day of March, 2000, the Cherokee National Council adopted Resolution No 14-00 that establishes the following policy:

BE IT RESOLVED BY THE CHEROKEE NATION, that as a matter of policy the Cherokee Nation shall not endorse, acquiesce or support for federal or state recognition any other group, association or club which identify themselves as a separate tribal identity for purpose of having a government to government relationship because of Cherokee ancestry.
Resolution No 14-00 was adopted by the Cherokee National Council to establish policy in response to the numerous individuals and entities claiming to be a new Cherokee tribe, clan or association. Many state that they are "lost clans or tribes" and that they are seeking federal recognition.

CONCLUSION/COMMENTS

American Indians can agree that there has been a significant level of increase in the activities of "wannabes" and "new agers" over the past few years. It does appear that some of those who claim to be "Indian" are aggressively seeking means of authentication. Some of these bogus groups have succeeded in duping non-Indian officials of state government. In fact, the state of Georgia did create three such "Indian tribes" through state legislation. The group in Ohio calling themselves the Tallige Fire Association claim to have been recognized by the Scioto County government as well as a resolution acknowledging this group from the state of Ohio. State recognition opens the door to certain federal funding and/or minority status as "American Indians" in seeking contracts and business ventures.

The state of Georgia was particularly active and successful in getting the United States to enforce the removal of the Cherokee from within its boundaries. It is particularly ironic for the state of Georgia to create (through legislation) new "Cherokee tribes."
State recognition as it is now interpreted and manipulated by groups seeking federal acknowledgement is a subversive attack on the sovereignty of legitimate tribal nations and governments.

REFERENCES

Allen, R. L (May 21, 1994). Personal Experience.
Bear Tribe Catalog (1994), PO Box 1950 , El Prado , New Mexico , 87529

Boggs, Elmer. in letter addressed to the Cherokee Tribal Council Members dated September 5, 1995 .

Churchill, W. (1988). A little matter of genocide: Native American spirituality & new age hucksterism. The Bloomsbury Review, vol. 8, no.5, 23-24.
Hagan, W.T. (1993). American Indians. 3rd Edition. University of Chicago Press: Chicago .
Hill, L. B. & P. Lujan (1984). Symbolicity among Native Americans. Journal of Thought, 19, 109-121.

Hobson, G. (1979). "The rise of the white shaman as the new version of cultural imperialism." In Geary Hobson (Ed.), The Remembered Earth. Red Earth Press: Albuquerque .
Melmer, D. (1995). "Self-declared 'medicine man' convicted of indecent assault." Indian Country Today, August 21, 1995 . Tim Giago, Editor, Rapid City , SD 57701 .
Mooney, J. (1887-90). Myths of the Cherokee and sacred formulas of the Cherokees. Reproduced in 1982 by Elders Publishing: Nashville .
Rose, W. (1992). "The great pretenders: Further reflections on whiteshamanism." In M.A. Jaimes, (Ed.), The State of Native America . South End Press: Boston .
Tallige Cherokee Nation Newsletter, 2023 Scioto Trail, Portsmouth Ohio , 45662 . A Talking Leaf From the Principal Chief.

Taylor, Jonathan L., Principal Chief, Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. Letter dated October 25, 1989, to Gladdis Addison, Department of Health & Human Services, Administration for Native Americans, 200 Independence Ave. SW, HHH Building F Corridor, Washington, DC 20201.

Treaty of Holston , 1791 http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/treaties/che0029.htm
U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census--1980 and 1990.
Vogel, V. J. (1970). American Indian medicine. University of Oklahoma Press: Norman .

Appendix 1

ENTITIES IN ARKANSAS SEEKING STATE OR FEDERAL RECOGNITION

Appendix 2

ENTITIES SEEKING FEDERAL RECOGNITION AS CHEROKEE

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4666
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 02:46:34 pm »
Thanks for the article. For the other groups we should start a separate thread for each. Have you or someone you know gone through experiences with these groups?

More comments I found on the Tallige.

http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1786&start=0
"somedudenohio: it should say preserve the $$$$$$$$$$$ we make off of somebody's dead relatives we have locked in a box in the basement while the public really believes we reinterned the remains.

bones: plus the spelling."

Pretty serious charge if they're being deceptive about ancestors remains. Does anyone know anything more on this? And could a Cherokee member explain about the spelling?

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:wRgBQ-Bp_2UJ:terriobrienmenke.efoliomn2.com/vertical/Sites/%257BCF5CDF65-BE8C-4F5B-B41A-3AE593DC9F26%257D/uploads/%257B8B7F7ED5-1E6D-48E7-81F4-6A728A26F52E%257D.DOC+%22tallige+cherokee%22+fraud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

"Elmer Boggs, who “switched his identification after he began to research his genealogy??? is one example:

Ten years ago, Elmer Boggs was white.  His birth certificate said so, his military records said so, all the census forms he ever filled out said so.  If pressed about ethnicity, he said his family was from Kentucky.  Today he is Kanati, Chief of the Panther clan of the Tallige Cherokee Nation, certified on his membership card to have “a C. I. B. D. (certified Indian blood degree of 4/64).??? (PARR Issue, 1992, Winter/Spring, p. 10)"

http://beadermansdealings.blogspot.com/
"Tallige Cherokee Nation History
The Tallige Cherokee Nation was formally started in 1972 and we have been increasing in number since. Incorporated in February 1988 as The Tallige Fire Association, Inc., we are a
non-profit 501(C)(3) organization
We are now recognized by Scioto County and as an Ohio band of Cherokee Indians by the State of Ohio, a copy of the "Resolution" from The Ohio Senate is on file at our office for anyone wishing to view it.
We are best known as the Ohio Cherokee Tribe who in July 1987 reburied the remains of 47 of our ancestors who were dug up from our Sacred Mound at the site of the old County Home here in Scioto County, Ohio. The remains were returned to us by the Scioto County Commissioners.
We do not get any help from the government, such as grants, etc. We are a self determining, self sustaining Organization and rely on our festivals and contributions from our members and interested people from all over. All donations are tax deductible.

Prenipple Chief Olliver Collins is da man in charge,but look at this.

Also included is a Forged Mohawk Council letterhead by William Taylor. Sent to us by the Mohawk Council themselves. Where Taylor was selling Mohawk cards.
Part of the Canadian Newspaper stating the fraud by William Taylor and others, where they turned it over to the FBI in the U.S. is also included here.
I am sure that many of you will recognize the names:
Norbert Johnsons:
Calvin Hall
Oliver Collins

Indeed I recognise all 3 of the names,funny how all 3 wiggle their way into positions here in ohio
Source:http://www.georgiatribeofeasterncherokeeechotafire.com/"

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4666
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2007, 02:30:19 pm »
These were passed onto me about the Tallige. I'll try to ID each email to avoid confusion.

-----
From: "Elmer Boggs"
Subject: Dr. Richard Allen
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:47:17 -0500
I am sending this to your e-mail address because I am not authorized to speak for Dr. Richard Allen or the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.
You can reach Dr. Richard Allen at the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.
He speaks for the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and Chief Chad Smith.
I do know that a video tape was made of the reburial and Dr. Richard Allen has a copy of it, but I don't have a copy of it. I don't know if you can get a copy of it or not.
We have been trying to get an audit of the so called "Tallige Cherokee Nation" for several years.
Collins was ask to step down several years ago.
He keeps saying that they are recognized by the State of Ohio.
The only recognition he had was from the Scioto County Commissioners because he coned them in to a letter of recognition.
Dr. Richard Allen wrote a paper a few years ago that explained it all.
I can e-mail a copy of that to you if you would like.
Best regards
Elmer Kanati Boggs

-----

Then from the Tallige, followed by Allen's reply to them.

-----

Mother Nation - Tallige Cherokee Nation
Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:21PM
65.54.97.193
Subject Walk Always
Osiyo
It has come to Tallige Cherokee Nations attention that several people are calling themselfs tallige cherokee indian people.
These are walk aways and deserters from the real Tallige Cherokee Nation. They have continued to use a slightly changed title to there group.
Any messages you recieve under that name is not from the Mother Nation and should be ignored. We have numerous times in the past declared their disassociation.
For any information about the Tallige Cherokee Nation or Tallige Fire Association vist us at www.tallige.com
Oliver Collins

-----

Howdy,
It has come to the Cherokee Nation’s attention (the real and only Cherokee Nation) that there are numerous entities claiming to be a new Cherokee band, clan, tribe or nation. They all make up names like Tallige now what the heck does Tallige mean?
So, Mr. Collins do you recall when you claimed not to be Indian but only a member of a “genealogical society???? I do. I have it on video tape.
Richard Allen

-----

More from Boggs about the leader of the Tallige.

-----


From: "Elmer Boggs"
Subject: Re: Some articles of interest 4 you all
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:48:45 -0500
We will help you anyway we can.
Let me know what you want to know.
We had the problem a year or so ago about Oliver Collins and a Pat Holley giving out Mohawk BIA cards, "unsigned".
I believe Holley said he had to pay back about $1,500.00 for the cards.
I also thing there was a Dr. Goings from South Carolina involved.
Oliver Collins and Barbara Crandell tried to become speakers for all Indians in Ohio.
We got that stopped and now, for the time being, they are a little quiet.
We have had our hands full the last few years....
We do have people that will help if they can.
The information you sent us is what we have been looking for.
When you read the paper I sent you, you will see what I said about Oliver Collins is true.
He said he is related to me, but I don't know. His wife is related to me.
Oliver Collins is white.
I have my genealogy back to the Treaty Signer, Cherokee John Boggs.
Wado
Elmer Kanati Boggs

----

Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 23:10:23 EST
Subject: Re: Some articles of interest 4 you all
....I was and am the Public Relations Officer for our organization and have the letters I mentioned, the article from the Portsmouth Daily Times on the burial of the 47 remains that were talked about Dr. Allen. I have a letter I sent to Jonathon Taylor well before he was sent to jail for some missing funds from the Bingo and Gaming money....
Best regards
Elmer Kanati Boggs

----

Then from an ex member, Russell "Strongbow" Cooper's accounts of the Tallige.
ETA: The older Collins was never convicted nor charged with a crime. The son mentioned as having died is in fact still alive. A different son passed away.

-----

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:48:37 EST
 Let me introduce myself I am Russell Cooper, I come from aniyunwaya full blood grandparents of the Col-lee or Col-lee-chee family of the wolf clan, my father was apart blood Oneida decended from Polly Cooper.
 I first met Olliver Collins in the early eighties as you stated at that time he was a business executive who was brought in by Tallige group to help them acquire funding in order to get themselves established.At first he seemed legit and really seemed to want to make a difference.His efforts in combating Mr. David Kuhns a shyster lawyer and part time archeologist for the Ohio Historical Society who was responsible for the partial excavation of the effigy bird mound on U.S.52 at West Portsmouth is commendable. However as the group grew and recognition for their efforts grew so did Olliver's ego as well as greed. He soon started claiming to have discovered a bloodline then set the by laws to read that the principle Chiefs position was a lifetime position and started calling himself UKU, this s when anyone who had strong bloodlines they could prove such as I or anyone started voicing their opinions they soon were forced out of the group by one means or another.
 While there I served as Town Chief and then later Olliver had me installed a tribal speaker a position he invented to keep me quiet. He told me that a Principle Chief should never have to speak to the people that they always had a tribal speaker who spoke for him or relayed what he wanted told. Well sir anyone who knows me knew that would never work for I speak from the heart and have my own mind.
 Anyway enough about me for now lets get back to Olliver. As I stated he was running a company as a business executive making surgical equipment to sell over seas. he had convinced many of the area business men and doctors ect. in the area to invest in his corporation. However one day they found the corporation to be reportedly bankrupt and all the investment money gone. Olliver claims his business partner took the money and ran to Turkey where he could not be expedited. Olliver's wife Erma as you stated nearly went to prison because of documents she had signed as secretary .Their lawyer Charles McCray did end up serving a little over a year because of some signatures on some signature loans he had acquired for the company. As stated he mysteriously was found dead in his home due to a gas leak his wife also perished in this freak accident.
 Olliver soon let the lease on the effigy bird mound )he had swore to protect until death did them apart) fall thru and go back to the county. he then sold the double wide office trailer and office equipment which tribal members had went as cosigners to purchase.To my knowledge none of these members were ever reimbursed for the items sold.Olliver then moved the group to a piece of land he purchased in Adams County that was owned by three partners one of which is a doctor. Last I heard they too had been cheated out of the payment on the land. Olliver then purchase the property at Lucasville and started a Bingo Hall under the Cherokee name. Elmer Boggs and myself spent countless hours on the phone and writing letters to the IRS the Attorney General and anyone else we could get to listen about Mr. Collins. Little has been done but the last I heard he was audited and his license for bingo revoked. Mr Collins is now leasing the former bingo hall to a man who is running a country music jamboree or show featuring local singing talent every Saturday night.
  Mr. collin's son Mark did die of mysterious circumstances but it was not in Ollivers home but in a trailer his son owned. Mr. Collins had the body cremated as you stated almost immediately and had the memorial service at the Bingo hall in which he took donations to pay for the burial expenses.
  I would gladly share any and all information I have in exchange for any and all information you have on Mr. Collins. As for myself My life is an open book so any further information on myself you may like to inquire please do so. I believe if we can work together we may just one day be able to rid the native people of this fraud Mr. Collins. For until we do the true native people here in Ohio will never have credibility.
With Much Respect
Russell Strong Bow Cooper

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 05:53:29 am »
Hate to open up a new can of beens on this old topic but this has revelance to Oliiver Collins Selling Mohawk cards AKA  Metis Cards AKA red cards.

Supporting Document I believe to be forgery:




Whats wrong with this picture is Looks like some things are whited out only to write over in hand writing what who ever wanted to be there.
Another big flag is the Signature of Olliver Collins is similar to the hand writting mostly the "C"'s
Also the signature of [Brent "Tali Yona" Palmer(Medicine Man)]  As it was pointed out to me By a member of the EBCI , That was a big clue there they claim of "medicine man" "is crap" as it was explained to me.


I tried my best to dechipher all the signatures in that document so here we go starting from top to bottom:

Dave " TIE' HWAK NAIM "  McIntyre - Mohawk Council

Oliver "yona" Collins  - P.C. Tallige Cherokee Nation

Brent "Tahli Yona" Palmer - Medicine man , Tallige Cherokee nation

Mathew "Running Wolf" Collins - Clan Chief
{I believe this is Olivers son who had died and was at the time of his life a Clan Chief to the Tallige}

The last 2 bottom names is not legible to my eyes to type out. If anyone else can dechipher and type it out , edit my post here and type them. Please?

Here is a supporting Email document:



[i]Again Since the document is not in perfect readable form. I will do my best to type it out to make it more clear.[/i]
Quote
To: unreadable
From: unreadable
Subject: Agenda for the confederate tribes of original people Jan 17?-19 portsmouth, Ohio

please contact chief oliver collins tallige cherokee nation for directions at  ??? - ??? 0154?  or at the bingo hall at 743? -  ??? 9153

CONFEDERATE TRIBES OF ORIGINAL PEOPLE

Agenda for confederate tribes of original people Portsmouth ohio january  17 18 19 2002
west? nation Tallige Cherokee Nation

January 17  agenda oppening address 9:00am

Roll call of Mohawks and allies
Roll call of invited nations
Roll call of state representatives and honored guests

presentation by mohawk council , on who we are and what were doing ie treaties , land claims

presentation and discussion NAGPRA by Tallige Cherokee Nation

discussion and presentation on establishing ohio indian affairs commission
open forum

Display of treaties and wampum belts by Mohawks and allies

Question and answer period for state representatives and honored guests

revisitation of historic alliances with Mohawk council and wampumsand treaty exchange with allies

Alternative energy presentations by Floyd ?????

Traditional  ??? victor smith

Iroqouis style ?? singing ?? by james eagle

Bare with me as there is a second page for me to show and type out. I'll get  the second page up and typed out in a few hours.

1:47 am  12-4-07; Continuation of supporting documents:




Quote
January 18? 9:00am opening address

Mohawk Council presentation on upcoming jurisdiction case

Presentation on cild welfare and tribal child custody

Open discussion on unbiased testing for ? children as well as alternative education


The great law discussion

3:00 Grand council of mohawk council and allies

7:00 Iroqouis style social?  james eagle ??

january 19 opening 9:00

Grand council confederate tribes of original people

Pipe Ceremony and closing.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 06:52:39 am by TheRebel »

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1486
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 06:00:53 pm »
Do the Mohawks know about this? And what real tribe lists a person as "medicine man" on a document. These people never cease to amaze me with their BS.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2007, 12:25:41 am »
Quote
Alternative energy presentation Floyd Montour

I'm not sure if this helps, but it looks like Floyd Montour is someone who is connected with the
Six Nations.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=797613&auth=Michael-Allan+Marion

"Mike Quattrociocchi, a former city councillor and owner of Mayberry Homes, went in front
of officials at the Haudenoshaunee Development Institute to plead for understanding on
Tuesday evening, hours after Confederacy members Floyd and Ruby Montour and a handful of
supporters took over the site of his four-duplex development."


http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=795276
"On Tuesday, Six Nations community members Ruby and Floyd Montour and a small number of
 supporters stopped work at a Brantford housing project being developed by former city
 councillor Mike Quattrociocchi."


"Brantford builders have no proof that the Montours represent the Confederacy or the
elected band council"


http://photos.brantfordexpositor.ca/mycapture/enlarge.asp?userphoto=0&theevent=380403

I am not sure who the people are, who post in the Six Nations Reclaimation forum , ( the link below )
but if they are Mohawk
(in cyberspace it's hard to be sure)
they might be able to tell you who Floyd is and help you get in touch with Floyd and maybe he could tell you
what is going on.  If he has gotten involved with this group it may be he doesn't know everything about who
these people are. 

http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2717

« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 12:27:21 am by Moma_porcupine »

frederica

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2007, 01:23:15 am »
Floyd Mountour is a Six Nations Elder.

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2007, 03:56:51 am »
Floyd Mountour is a Six Nations Elder.

I 'm sure  Floyd Mountour  got duped into believing Tallige was a legit group , after all name me one legit group in Ohio...
Whats even more bizarre is a gentlemen by the name of Jean Leclavier of some supposed OMAA woodland Metis Society in Canada? Also took part in
the selling of the Mohawk Cards aka Red cards aka Mohawk Metis cards In Canada.
 I have found out that OMAA website is no longer up and runing.

More to come as I examine info. and hack through the drama and crying I'm receiving in my email account.
12-4-07/10:7AM

Here's a statement from Pat Holley on the Mohawk Metis Cards

   
 
     
Quote
To whom it may concern:



    My name is Patrick Holley , I have been accused of selling Metis cards .



    I would like to take this time to tell my side of the story which was printed in Turtle Island News March 19, 2003 issue , I negotiated the issuing of 28 Metis cards from Jean Lecavlier of the Southern Metis Association which I believed to be valid. However, now there validity is in question at this point the Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee is out 1400.00 for these cards.



    I Pat Holley have initiated a small claims court proceeding for the refund of this money.



    I will post the court documents early next week to verify the proceedings on this matter.



    Also enclosed is Jean Lecavlier Metis website it is enclosed as a attachment



    To the Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee Chief William Taylor



    I apologize for all negative responses from this matter and will pursue this matter with due diligence to see justice is served in this matter.



    Pat Holley


 



 



 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 06:11:30 am by TheRebel »

Offline Ric_Richardson

  • Posts: 245
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2007, 04:26:40 pm »
Tansi;

The OMAA (which I believe stands for Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association), sprung up when Metis hunting rights were affirmed, by various courts, including the Supreme Court of Canada.  Much of what I have heard about them, is that the OMAA did not require geneological evidence of their members being Metis  The only apparent evidence needed, for membership, was the ability to pay for registration.  Since the Powley case affirmed Ontario Metis people's Aboriginal Rights, there are many people who wanted Metis "status" in order to hunt, mainly. 

The OMAA was never affiliated with the Metis National Council, who exercise much more stringent requirements for determining our membership.

Ric

« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 08:53:26 pm by Ric_Richardson »

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2007, 11:31:53 pm »
Thank you Ric_Richardson for your input on the OMAA.

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2008, 07:55:52 am »
This is a series of emails in my files , this deals with Tallige , Collin,Crandel etc etc.. this goes about who is speaking for all natives in ohio and also deals with the reburial Tallige did in the late 80's
******************************************************************
Pat's name was not on this and I am not telling her about this!!!!!!

I did not send this to you. Jean is coming up here Thursday to go shopping. I will keep in touch.

----- Original Message -----

To: "Charla Tootle" <ctoo1@earthlink.net>

Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:25 AM

Subject: Fw: Cherokee??]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@avolve.net>

"oliver collins" <oliver.collins@verizon.net>

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 3:49 PM

Subject: [Fwd: Cherokee??]

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Cherokee??

Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:44:30 -0400

From: Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net>

To: rallen@cherokee.org

The Cherokee Nation


File name: Crandells_answer_Original_Message.doc | File type: application/msword      Save to Yahoo! Briefcase -  Download File - Need Help?

----- Original Message -----

From: NORBERT JOHNSON

To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; naao@avolve.net; Benhase71@msn.com; Benem8@aol.com; bmusick@greenup.k12.ky.us; bschweppe@fuse.net; bpalmer@uky.edu; BADGERWOMAN@aol.com; tmyers@ag.state.oh.us; naao@ascenture.net; csmith@cherokee.org; ctoo1@earthlink.net; cherokeelink@cherokee.org; daun@awardvacations.com; oliver.collins@verizon.net; ptvwsl@yahoo.com; Grandmabear7@webtv.net; treiser@sciotocounty.net; sriff@sciotocounty.net; lucasd@ohio.edu; cremeans@marshall.edu; debrbaker@hotmail.com; TayGoinRes@aol.com; lawyergg@zoomnet.net; mcnut724@cs.com; okema4@sbcglobal.net; sysop@nvi.net; Governor.Taft@das.state.oh.us; hwmullins@zoomnet.net; jhamlin@fuse.net; walkingstick1927@yahoo.com;

Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:03 AM

Subject: RE: TIME TO REFLECT AND RECONCILE YOUR DIFFERENCES

Subject: RE: crandells answer
 
J'wan
Enough time and energy has been wasted based upon rumors and enuendo. It is now time for each tribal community to first solidify its sovereignty by vote of reaffirmation of tribal status. It appears that while many persons of claimed Cherokee blood do not share a common Cherokee heritage, they therefore FRAGMENT based upon ideology and political rhetoric. This does happen when a community is shattered, displaced and made to be refugees; and they then rely upon [new] leaders by effect, to develop disfunctional units of community, shattered by the trauma of a new and somewhat perverse socio-political identity.

The time has come to reaffirm tribal ties. Time to reaffirm the local governing authority of the tribal community. Time to EMPOWER the tribal governing authority as a Sovereign acting on behalf of the CITIZENS of the tribal community. Time to shed the perverse status of being a "member" of a tribal community by becomming a CITIZEN of that community. Time to understand that the YMCA and Corporations have MEMBERS! Tribes, Bands, and tribal communities have CITIZENS. (have you ever heard of an "American Member," or a Member of the United States or even a Member of Ohio?)

The time has come for each claimed native descendant to grant written powers and limits of representation by their chosen representatives. Such should be both individual grants as well as a vote of confidence for their government (constitution). It is time to protect the children from foreign domination through the creation of an intertribal system of laws on child welfare.

Ohio has a number of tribal communities. These communities need to respect that there are political as well as cultural differences. Respect and accept these differences and capitolize on them to enrich, not to destroy who you are! There can be no valid commission created that does not represent each tribal community! It is not for one tribal community to determine the spokes(wo)man of a foreign jurisdiction. A spokesperson is

just that, one to SPEAK for his/her tribal community... not other communities.

While you remain in opposition you gather no service to your people. Differences exist in all societies. It is how they deal with the differences that creates a great society... and also dysfunction as a society.

When I was in my youth, I invisioned a time when tribal communities united as communities, retaining their own pecular sociio-political idealogies and sovereignty. They united under the banner of peace and friendship for the development of services and benefits for the entire tribal complex. Tribe hopping ceased to exist as no one tribe refused to extend inter-tribal services to a citizen of an affiliated tribe. That was when I was young. I am now almost old and it appears my vision was sponsored by "coyote."

In the 1980's it cost almost $800,000 for a tribal community to be denied acknowledgement. All their resources expended, the tribal community was left destitute and many fell away or obsorbed into a greater complex of another petitioning tribe. During their petitioning period, they broke apart because of trying to put the best face forward and with the best evidence available. Many hid their total numbers in order to appear less threatening on the budget. Had they resorted to tribal reconstruction, reorganization, and affiliation with other tribal communities in a similar situation, they could have created their own benefits and services riviling that of the USBIA. They could have acquired a land base for their communities, trained their own citizens in their own colleges, utilized the resources of their landbase to create inter-tribal commerce, and to provide for homes for their population.

There are places where one can purchase land for less than $200 per acre. There are homes that can be built at less than $15 per square ft. There are schools that can be created by elder volunteers that can educate the youth. There is health care that can be provide by tribal medicine people and other volunteer service providers. Ask yourself today as a leader or potential leader, "does my community have such things, and if not why?" The answer is most probably that more effort is expended on wants rather than working on having. The most cost effective way to create services and benefits is through a coalition of tribal communities sharing their resources, nor hoarding them.

How many tribal communities have a land base sufficient to accomodate all their citizens? How many even have a land base and how is it utilized? How many have an effective educational system unrelated to the local Public institutions in the state of Ohio? How many have a health care system servicing their tribesmen? How many or how few...or if not at all!

It is time for reflection and reconciliation. Consider that all tribal communities restore their faith and trust in their leaders. Each one electing or appointing an official spokesperson and creating a "true" Tribal Commission of Native Affairs to deal with government to government relations and inter-tribal services and benefits. Let no person speak for another tribal community not their own. And respect the differences of even a fractured (fragmented) tribal community as in retrospect, they are all going for the same goal and that is respect and acknowledgement of the State and Federal as well as other tribes as having full rights of

representing their populations as Sovereign governments.

If you desire a concept plan for tribal community development in the state of Ohio that can also benefit local non-Tribal communities, I will provide such provided that EACH AND EVERY tribal community is represented. I would also like to see that the State of Ohio government becomes supportive of the efforts, both politically and economically as the effects would be beneficial to both communities.

I have spoken

Oneh!

Norbert

 

Dear Elmer and Strong Bow,

How about we set a couple of dates then work out the list and symantics? Our time is growing short.

Love,

Tula

ps If you get me a list of leaders I will contact the ones we have emails or P.O. addys for. A few years ago the Tuscararas of Ohio as well as other tribes, including Ollie met here to form an Ohio Indian Commission. We did a lot of the needed language to make it fly without looking like "ignoramusses."It was unamimously voted that Ollie not be asked to join due to his reputation and chicanery.
 
Elmer Boggs <ebbieboggs@msn.com wrote:

Tula & Russ,

I agree with what you say. It sounds good. My list is a little old, but if needed. Oliver and Barbara have held back all Indian people in Ohio. I don't know if they are just stupid or do they have a goal in mind.

Please read the following. This is just a start of something that could bring us all together. I am not asking you to except this, just give it some thought. There is a lot more, this is only a start.

Best regards

Elmer

 

First

PLEASE refer to your tribal people as "CITIZENS" and not members. As long as you use the term "member" you cede sovereignty to the US, the State, the COUNTY, the City or Town, and yes... even to the local Sewer District!
Membership belongs to a CLUB such as the YMCA, or a Corporation. Remember Corporations have members and not citizens!
You want to take hold of the destiny of the Tribe, then choose your words appropriately!
 
Call a Council Meeting just to define terms used in regard to your citizenry. Have a meeting and set up an appropriate LAW, as opposed to an ordinance, that requires each adult citizen of the Tribe to sign a 
"re-affirmation of Tribal Status and Sovereignty." Do the same to establish a Tribal Child Welfare Law that mandates that each tribal child is a ward of the tribal court and tribal council with legal custody shared by Council and the Parent. Establish a requirement that the parent sign a "Power of Attorney" to the Council to intercede if the child is determined to be a child in need. Create a "Power of Attorney" that authorizes the Council (or it's appointed Officer) to represent the tribal citizen in all matters of governance.
 
Why? Because this establishes documented proof that the Tribe is a GOVERNING AUTHORITY at the WILL of the PEOPLE over its Citizens. The Courts have to acknowledge it as well as the Powers of Attorney or they have to declare ALL Powers of Attorney in the entire state as invalid. To do otherwise is an act of discrimination against an ethnic community and therefore a violation of human rights & genocidal activity. You do not BEG from the State of Ohio or the United States for your status as a governing authority. The PEOPLE of the Tribe establish the powers and grant the sovereignty for you to act.
 
Not one of the tribes in Ohio have this system in effect. They all beg their status from a foreign governing entity! Do not fall into that trap.
 
As a Legitimate Governing Authority, your Council determines who your Spokesman is! Not the State! Not the USBIA, and Not even the President of the United States.
 
With the Powers of Attorney in effect, you can require that the City, County, State and Federal Government go through the Tribal Council for every act, letter, solicitation, TAX FORM, etc. as the Power of Attorney of the individual citizen. Once they are informed, they must comply or be in violation of their own laws. You can even request the powers to regulate trade and intercourse which means you can act on behalf of a citizen in debt, having all letters of collection referred to the Tribal Council. This places you into a barganing position to negotiate settlements with collection agencies. Further, you can place arbitration clauses from the Tribe affecting all acts of commerce from a tribal citizen, and of which a credit granting agency becomes obligated from the onset of the grant of credit.

Elmer Kanati Boggs

----- Original Message -----

From: tula

To: Elmer Boggs; strongbow cooper; lisaiezzi@bellsouth.net

Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:55 PM

Subject: Re: This is my last e-mail to all Fires!

Elmer and Strongbow,

The idea I am suggesting would have each group represented by their leader...each with an equal voice representing the concerns of their own people. No one person can do the talking for all of us. The *Ohio Indian Commission membership will speak as individual chiefs, leaders, etc. *suggested name so it is nothing like NAAO and anyone born in America is an "native american"...we are Indians.

Love,

Tula

----- Original Message -----

From: tula

To: Elmer Boggs

Cc: strongbow cooper; Jean McCoard; tamsah@aol.com; carrie & logan; Dark Rain Thom

Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:40 PM

Subject: Re: This is my last e-mail to all Fires!

Elmer, (I lost Ollie's and Barb's addy in a crash)

I strongly disagree that the Columbus Indian Center, or any Federally connected Indian Center should speak for us. They don't even recognize us as Indians.

I suggest we have all the Nation's leaders who are interested in forming an Ohio Indian Commission met and call it that...doing away with any old names we have used: First Nations, NAAO, etc. We need a totally new start.

With respect, Tula

Elmer Boggs <ebbieboggs@msn.com wrote:

Barbara Crandell

With all due respect, there is no question about anyone’s Cherokee blood. I have always had the highest respect for you and I still do. At your age, you should be on the Elders Council and let the kids take over.

I feel this issue is important enough to inform all Indian People everywhere.

Some of this information was not sent out to all and I feel it needs to get out there.

This is for all “Fires??? in Ohio. If you want or need more information, feel free to contact me.

You should have your meetings and decide if you need anyone to speak for you. Maybe some need help.

But I feel that if you need people like the NAAO to speak for you, you are in bad shape to start with.

The Rumor Mill, along with Greed, is getting a good start!

Now, rumors are going around that the leaders of the Native American Alliance of Ohio has called a meeting, “Announcing the Founding Meeting of the Native American Commission of Ohio???,

The Purpose; “The Native American peoples of Ohio are to decide on representatives to present to the State of Ohio as authorized speakers and counselors on legislative and educational matters of concern to Ohio Native Americans???. For all Indians in Ohio to choose “NAAO??? representatives to speak for all the Indians in Ohio on legislative issues. These people are not qualified to speak for our people.

Let it be known to all, that the Tallige Cherokee Indian People do not recognize the "Native American Alliance of Ohio" or their so called leaders, Oliver Collins, Barbara Crandall and their membership.

They have been trying to be the speaker for all Native Americans in Ohio for several years.

I believe and feel very strongly that the lack of leadership in Southern Ohio has been our downfall. What makes these people think they can now speak for all Ohio Indian People? They are not qualified to speak for our people on any issue.

Remember what these same people did for the "First Nation of Ohio". They tried to speak for us then and we all lost everything. Everything was blamed on the Seneca people, Fred Kennedy.

Oliver Collins brought Barbara Crandell here and started the NAAO against our citizens wishes.

Oliver Collins brought Fred Kennedy here and didn’t like what he did, and got rid of him.

Oliver Collins brought George Morgan here and didn’t like what he did, and got rid of him.

Oliver Collins lost the Bird Mound by not holding up his end of the deal to build a museum.

Oliver Collins was replaced when he could not do the job he was brought in to do, State Recognition.

The Native American Alliance of Ohio and the Native American Commission of Ohio will not speak for me and our people. The Indian Centers of Columbus, Ohio would be a better choice.

Other Rumors;

Rumors going around; Money being paid under the table to some officials to look the other way.

Rumors going around; claim that Oliver Collins and Barbara Crandall co-chair the NAAO.

Rumors going around; claim Oliver Collins claims to be over all Native Americans in Southern Ohio

Rumors going around; claim Barbara Crandall claims to be over the Newark, Ohio Native Americans

Rumors going around; Barbara Crandall claims to have been a member of Tallige for several years.

Rumors going around; Oliver Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society, but later claimed to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Nation.

Barbara Crandell said;

Mr. Boggs has made a serious mistake by trying to use my name to give himself some sort of legitimacy.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

Your name does not give me any legitimacy.

Barbara Crandell said;

Mr. Elmer Boggs, on the other hand has tried everything in the book to keep Native people from getting ahead in the state of Ohio. His focus has been Oliver Collins and now he has added Barbara Crandell to the list. I don't know what I have done to deserve this honor.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

The only thing I have done is try to keep us together, but you don’t want our people to work together.

Barbara Crandell said;

Mr. Boggs has accused state officials of taking bribes,

I, Elmer Boggs said;

Rumors going around; Money being paid under the table to some officials to look the other way.

Barbara Crandell said;

This is serious charge against the NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center. NAAO has never engaged in any illegal actions of any kind. We have stood our grounds on several occasions but we have never broke a law. I think he had better apologize before it gets out of hand. I do not take kindly to people who slander my name.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

I do not know anything about NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center and I have never said anything about them.

Barbara Crandell said;

If in deed I said I was a member of the Tallige Fire it was true. I have been an associate member for years.

That is no excuse for my mistake, but it is damn good reason.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

When you lie and point a wrong finger at someone, it is a mistake. You have never been a citizen of Tallige

I don’t like people who lie.

Barbara Crandell said;

1.- I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people.

2.- Prior to April 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

When you lie and point a wrong finger at someone, it is a mistake. You have never been a citizen of Tallige

I don’t like people who lie.

Barbara Crandell said;

1.- “I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people???.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

The following was taken from an e-mail from Dr. Richard L. Allen:

The Overhill Villages are a creation of the anthropologists/archaeologists to identify groupings of Cherokee and were never acknowledged as such by the Cherokee. It has only been within recent years that individual such as Oliver Collins, Hu Gibbs, Richard Paugh, Barbara Crandall, et al have claimed to be descended from forgotten Cherokees called the Overhill band. However, none of these individuals have never been able to establish any legitimate connection to any of the three legitimate Cherokee governments.

It seems that some groups are aggressively appropriating an American Indian identity. Some are attempting to repatriate the bones of our ancestors to gain legitimacy with other non-Indians. In 1987, the Ohio group did conduct a "reburial ceremony" of remains (probably ancient Shawnee remains) that were turned over to them by officials of the Scioto County government. The group claimed to have conducted a traditional Cherokee reburial ceremony.

A videotape of news reports chronicles the event including the forty-seven, small caskets that are passed down by women, one to another, into a community burial pit. In the center of the pit, a fire has been built "to smudge" the burial area and the remains as explained by Oliver Collins.

Collins introduced Hugh Gibbs as the Principal Chief of the Etowah Cherokee Tribe (another bogus group) with whom Tallige Fire claims association. Gibbs oversees the re-interment "ceremony." According to Collins, Mr. Gibbs is a fullblood Cherokee medicine man. During this same time and on videotape, Mr. Collins claimed only to be a member of an amateur genealogical society,

But now claims to be the Principal Chief of the Tallige Cherokee Tribe.

*******

 

Barbara Crandell said;

2.- “Prior to April 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.

I, Elmer Boggs said;

----- Original Message -----

From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@ascenture.net

To: sysop@nvi.net (Letter to George Morgan)

Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 12:54 PM

Subject: Bird Effigy Mound

The Tallige people have been guardians of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered

themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound. Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them. In doing the programs they hope to broaden the children’s knowledge of Indian culture. It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do I want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY.

Elmer Kanati Boggs

----- Original Message ----- (Page 1 of 2) sent to Elmer Boggs

From: Barbara Crandell

To: oliver.collins@verizon.net; carrsha9@aol.com

Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:16 PM

Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Rumors]

To whom it may concern:

The forward I have sent to you is a sorry attempt to stop any thing from happening in the state of Ohio. What a shame some people stand off from the circle and throw stones at any one who attempts to to move forward with positive actions. . I prefer to build rather then tear down. Mr. Elmer Boggs, on the other hand has tried every thing in the book to keep Native people from getting ahead in the state of Ohio. His focus

has been Oliver Collins and now he has added Barbara Crandell to the list. I don't know what I have done to deserve this honor. Mostly I work everyday toward the future for my family and other Native people in the state.

To my knowledge I have never spoken for any person other my self and the Native American Alliance (NAAO), Mr. Boggs has accused state officials of taking bribes, now I feel it time he stepped up and

justified this accusation. This is serious charge against the NAAO and the Cleveland Indian Center. NAAO has never engaged in any illegal actions of any kind. We have stood our grounds on several occasions but we have never broke a law. I think he had better apologize before it gets out of hand. I do not take kindly to people who slander my name.

Any person reading the flyer for the formation of an Indian Commission in the state of Ohio will clearly see no one is advocating any person speak for ALL the people in the State of Ohio. Mr. Boggs has made a serious mistake by trying to use my name to give himself some sort of legitimacy. I am a Cherokee person by blood my grandfather and grandmother and on back are on the Eastern Band Cherokee rolls. Like it or not I do have the Cherokee blood in my veins. I am not a member of the over the hill Cherokee, I don't know these people. Prior to april 2005 I had never told any person that I was a member of the Tallige Fire Organization.

Now we come to why is Elmer Boggs so hell bent on stopping the formation of an Indian commission?. He is a bad spirited person that is living in the past and trying make sure if he can't control every thing it is not going to happen. He believes if he sucks up to Ok. and N.C. Indians they will love him and give him a home.

When his people came from Virginia to Ky. and settled in Sacred Wind my people were already living there. See (Coming to Kentucky, by Hugh Boggs)

We have tried to be as open and above board as we can. Why is Elmer Boggs is sending Ohio business to Ok people is a mystery to me. Let Ohio take care of Ohio If any OHIO person wishes to have any more information on this please contact me and I will do my best to provide it to you.

What makes Elmer Boggs think we are eying the Shawnee casino? He must be trying to get them to build him one. We have never even thought about them and we don't lose any sleep over it. I worry about people running around telling people they are Indian and talking like this, it gives all of the real Native people a bad reputation. besides it bears out the general publics opinion of Natives being drunks, casino

crazy, raving fry bread addicts.

I am sure there is thousand more things to say but to what advantage is it? Why can't Indian people come together and do something that will help our children, help other Native people, help our ancestor to go on their journey? Why can't Elmer show up and speak for HIS PEOPLE, and act like a one of the real people instead of a dog in the manger?

Barbara Crandell

----- Original Message ----- (Page 2 of 2) sent to Elmer Boggs

From: Barbara Crandell

To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; oliver collins; twobears98@hotmail.com; jdmccoard@bright.net; rssharp@dragonbbs.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:36 AM

Subject: RUMORs???

Elmer:

let me be the first to congratulate you !!!! You found the only mistake I have made in the last 50 years. If in deed I said I was a member of the Tallige Fire It was true. I have been an associate member for years,

in April of this year I accepted a card from the Chief. I did not remember ever saying I was member but Mr. Morgan can make folks do and say things that would turn the air blue for several yards in both direction. That is no excuse for my mistake, but it is damn good reason.

In no way would I ever speak for you or your people. What ever you think you read in that flyer about someone going to speak for Elmer Boggs, must have been put into it after it left my hands. WE DID SAY

SHOW UP OR SHUT. So show up and speak for your people. At least ask your people who they would like to have speak for them.

As far as Mr. Allen, I have no problem with him being a flunky to any one he sees fir to serve. I DO NOT KNOW THE OVER THE HILL PEOPLE. Because Mr. Allen lumped me in that group does not in any way make me part of them. My Grandpa made his own way to Ky. We never belonged to any group of over the hill people. I am not a servant to any Federal Government flunky. I told Mr. Allen that sometime ago. My people did not sign any treaties, they lived free and made their own living. I have the roll numbers of all of my mothers people they were on the Eastern Band of Cherokee (EBC) rolls on up through 1880s, I have never ask any thing of EBC because I have no relatives on the 1924 rolls. I let the people who signed the treaties take care of their business and I take care of my own, as free Cherokee Indian. I walk the land that I have purchased and pay taxes on, my children are free and walking the land I bought and kept in trust for them. I owe no man.

Elmer, you keep harping on that First Nation if it had been feasible I would have worked night and day for it. It would not work because Fred Kennedy was only here to make romantic connections and get all the money he could con us out of. Oliver and I caught on to his game and he started to tell everybody they had to get rid of those two old people. I often wondered why you and Iron Eyes didn't go on with the

Nation thing? Didn't you have enough money or maybe your wife's and daughters were not pretty enough. Mr. Fred Kennedy caused a lot of heart ache among our people. I am sorry we ever let him in the door.

I am going to ask you in all fairness, Do not use my name when you speak of bribes and underhanded dealings. I walk in the sunshine and I let the truth be my umbrella. If you want to know any thing from me, just ask do not sleaze around behind my back. I sent you the e-mail I wrote please have the honor to do the same for me.

Barbara Crandell

----- Original Message -----

From: Barbara Crandell

To: ebbieboggs@msn.com; oliver collins; twobears98@hotmail.com; jdmccoard@bright.net; rssharp@dragonbbs.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 11:36 AM

Subject: RUMORs???

Hi Elmer:

This newest "meeting" is shades of what we have seen before. I am reminded of one such meeting that took place in 1992 in West Union - in which guns were pulled and threats made. I'm also reminded of First Nation, and then subsequent "confederation" meetings that came to nothing.

You are right in that we do not have a cohesive group or leadership in southern Ohio. We have started a little group known as Trio (Tri-Regional Indian Organization) - you get our emails. It was not intended to be a politically active body - but to work on projects that might help our people. Unfortunately - we have found that the biggest problem is that NOBODY likes anybody--and there is too much of "if he's in, I'm out", etc. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies. That lets other small groups assert themselves as leaders and spokespeople. "Whoever has the loudest voice wins!"

The good thing about Trio is that we have structured it so that no one is "boss".We have a rotating chairmanship. It was designed that way to keep egos from overcoming our goals. And to keep any one of us from becoming a controller and dictator. (We had to much of that in the past.) Our goal is to be engaged in positive dialogue and cooperative and collaborative partnerships.

I wish that we could put together people from the area that could be A "voice" in southern Ohio (not THE voice!!) and give us some strength in addressing state issues.

I do know that it does not matter WHO decides who will be Indian spokespeople in Ohio on legislation. Unless a system is developed by the state government and is sanctioned by it, there is no formal Indian authority in the state. And when it comes to developing legislation, or speaking on it--as citizens of the state of Ohio we ALL have the right to speak on any issue regardless of our standing or status as Indians. Even white people can weigh in on Indian issues. (God knows the archeologists are in there pitching all the time. And their legislation does not benefit us in the least.)

However, I believe it to be presumptuous of ANY organization to call a meeting for the purpose of establishing leadership and adding the edict: "This is a put up or shut up meeting." As we all know, it won't work anyway!

Perhaps our best strategy is to continue informing the people of activities, and politely ignore some of the more egregious offerings that come our way.

Did you want me to send you that big old file on Birchfield history???

Jean

P.O. Box 748

Tahlequah, Ok. 74465

                                                                                          Ref. Barbara Crandell

Mr. Allen,

In your recent communication with Elmer Boggs of Scioto County. You seemed to be called upon to mentioned my name in your some what rambling analyses of who is or who isn't Cherokee Indian. Your calling in life may be to determine what a tribe consist of? but it does not include the privilege of determining who is Cherokee Indian, maybe you can determine who is to be enrolled but you do not have the power to say who has the the blood in their veins.

I do not need to be on the rolls of your tribe to be a Cherokee person. My family, starting with my Grandfather,(mother's father) Great grand Mother (mother's grandmother)and on back to Mary and John Maney, are on the Eastern Band rolls. NOT ON 1924 ROLLS, which the Eastern Band Nation holds to be necessary for enrollment. My Grandfather left Yancy County N.C. in 1883, I don't know anything about the over the hill gang.

I have never once in my 74 years on this earth said I was enrolled or that I speak for any nation, band or tribe of Native people. I am not a Clan mother, Chief, Pipe carrier, Medicine person, or any of the things

which seem to make the modern day so called Indian happy and content.

I am called Grandmother by some people, I never tell any one to call me this. I am mother of four children, grand mother to seven, great-grandmother to eight. I have always lived an honorable life, paid my bill and educated my children, Our children's chosen professions are, Attorney, school teacher, artist /horse trainer, and a social worker. All four of my children and six of my grandchildren live on 170 acre farm in Thornville, Ohio.

 

I know most of the people of whom you speak of in you letter. Most of them are just plain folks with out malice or hate for any persons. There are a few bad apples in the barrel and they manage to cause one group of people to raise up against the other. I will have no part of their small petty actions. If you or they want to do something constructive, why don't you and them address the Ohio Historical Society's(OHS) policy of keeping six thousand plus dead Indians on their shelf? (they call them "our collection.") Every day the archaeologist and so called scientific community along with OHS are rewriting the history of the first people of Ohio. This is their way of continuing to practice genocide on Native people. Then along comes your letter to add to the confusing. Martha Otto (OHS) was so happy to see my name used in the same letter with the likes of Hu Gibbs she sent it out to every agency in Ohio.

It will take more then that to shut me up. One year ago the OHS had me arrested for praying on an Indian mound in Newark, Ohio. I am not going to the end of my journey in disgrace over this arrest, I feel my

Grandmothers will welcome me in to the spirit world because I pray every day giving my thanks to the earth and sky for all of the wonderful gifts I have been given.

I am the chair person of the Native American Alliance of Ohio (NAAO). This Organization is made up of descendant of several Indian Nation (some are enrolled with their Nation). Not one of them ever presume to

speak for any Nation. WE DO NOT have ceremony, sweat lodges, medicine person, Chiefs, Clan Mothers or pipe carriers. We will sometime have prayer before and after a meeting.

NAAO has worked with the Federal Government for eight years to secure the green space (170 clean acres, known as the buffer zone between the Nuclear weapons plant and the community) to be used as a cemetery for the old ones now being held captive by the OHS and the Universities in Ohio. We have insisted on the Federal Government contacting all Tribes that signed the Greenville Treaty. Since the tribes will not communicate with us, we have to trust that they are being told the truth. We use our funds to do all of this work. I am not your enemy nor will I ever be. I do not speak for you, I know much of my traditions and have lived my life according to the original instructions. I can only hope you will deter from your destructive path and find peace in you existence.

Yours Sincerely,

Barbara Crandell

CC

Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians

P.O. Box 455

Cherokee, N.C. 28719

United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians

2450 Muskogee Ave.

Tahlequah, OK 74464

 

[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus By Avolve.net]

CCooperStrongBow@aol.com <CCooperStrongBow@aol.com>

Tuesday, July 08, 2003 12:06 PM

EbbieBoggs@msn.com <EbbieBoggs@msn.com> Sisterofwhales@aol.com <Sisterofwhales@aol.com>

Fwd: Fw: Cherokee??]

In a message dated 7/8/2003 11:45:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ctoo1@earthlink.net writes:

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Cherokee??

Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:44:30 -0400

From: Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net>

To: rallen@cherokee.org

The Cherokee Nation

P.O. Box 748

Tahlequah, Ok. 74465

                                                                                          Ref. Barbara Crandell

Mr. Allen,

In your recent communication with Elmer Boggs of Scioto County. You seemed to be called upon to mentioned my name in your some what rambling analyses of who is or who isn't Cherokee Indian. Your calling in life may be to determine what a tribe consist of? but it does not include the privilege of determining who is Cherokee Indian, maybe you can determine who is to be enrolled but you do not have the power to say who has the the blood in their veins.

I do not need to be on the rolls of your tribe to be a Cherokee person. My family, starting with my Grandfather,(mother's father) Great grand Mother (mother's grandmother)and on back to Mary and John Maney, are on the Eastern Band rolls. NOT ON 1924 ROLLS, which the Eastern Band Nation holds to be necessary for enrollment. My Grandfather left Yancy County N.C. in 1883, I don't know anything about the over the hill gang.

I have never once in my 74 years on this earth said I was enrolled or that I speak for any nation, band or tribe of Native people. I am not a Clan mother, Chief, Pipe carrier, Medicine person, or any of the things

which seem to make the modern day so called Indian happy and content. I am called Grandmother by some people, I never tell any one to call me this. I am mother of four children, grand mother to seven,

great-grandmother to eight. I have always lived an honorable life, paid my bill and educated my children, Our children's chosen professions are, Attorney, school teacher, artist /horse trainer, and a social worker.

All four of my children and six of my grandchildren live on 170 acre farm in Thornville, Ohio.

I know most of the people of whom you speak of in you letter. Most of them are just plain folks with out malice or hate for any persons. There are a few bad apples in the barrel and they manage to cause one group of people to raise up against the other. I will have no part of their small petty actions. If you or they want to do something constructive, why don't you and them address the Ohio Historical Society's(OHS) policy of keeping six thousand plus dead Indians on their shelf? (they call them "our collection.") Every day the archaeologist and so called scientific community along with OHS are rewriting the history of the first people of Ohio. This is their way of continuing to practice genocide on Native people. Then along comes your letter to add to the confusing. Martha Otto (OHS) was so happy to see my name used in the same letter with the likes of Hu Gibbs she sent it out to every agency in Ohio.

It will take more then that to shut me up. One year ago the OHS had me arrested for praying on an Indian mound in Newark, Ohio. I am not going to the end of my journey in disgrace over this arrest, I feel my

Grandmothers will welcome me in to the spirit world because I pray every day giving my thanks to the earth and sky for all of the wonderful gifts I have been given.

 

I am the chair person of the Native American Alliance of Ohio (NAAO). This Organization is made up of descendant of several Indian Nation (some are enrolled with their Nation). Not one of them ever presume to

speak for any Nation. WE DO NOT have ceremony, sweat lodges, medicine person, Chiefs, Clan Mothers or pipe carriers. We will sometime have prayer before and after a meeting.

NAAO has worked with the Federal Government for eight years to secure the green space (170 clean acres, known as the buffer zone between the Nuclear weapons plant and the community) to be used as a cemetery for the old ones now being held captive by the OHS and the Universities in Ohio. We have insisted on the Federal Government contacting all Tribes that signed the Greenville Treaty. Since the tribes will not communicate with us, we have to trust that they are being told the truth. We use our funds to do all of this work. I am not your enemy nor will I ever be. I do not speak for you, I know much of my traditions and have lived my life according to the original instructions. I can only hope you will deter from your destructive path and find peace in you existence.

Yours Sincerely,

Barbara Crandell

CC

Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians

P.O. Box 455

Cherokee, N.C. 28719

United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians

2450 Muskogee Ave.

Tahlequah, OK 74464

---

[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus By Avolve.net]

" I Would Rather Die Fighting For Principles Than Not To Have Any"

Russell Cooper

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Crandell" <naao@ascenture.net>
To: <sysop@nvi.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Bird Effigy Mound
 
Dear Mr. Morgan,
My name ia Barbara Crandell, I am the Co-Chariperson of the Native American Alliance of Ohio, and a member fo the Tallige Fire Nation of Portsmouth, Ohio. I do not speak for the Tallige Fire Nation or the Native American Alliance of Ohio. All staements and opinions in this letter are mine and have not been solicited by other persons.

In a recent meeting I was given copies of two e-mails signed by you. These e-mails suggest that you believe The Tallige Fire people have been amiss in their treatment of other Indian people. Let me inform you, nothing could be farther from the truth. I can go back several years and recite the names, time, and places when Native American people were welcomed to the Fire at the Bird mound. You are right to be concerned about us, because we do not readily suffer fools.
 
I do not believe you have a humble opinion, your attitude is one of arrogance, with overtones of grandoise. You hint at "several independant organizations" with out revealing their names. One can only wonder if they have been told the truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound. You refer to the Mound having your ancestors buried in it, yet I fail to see any reference to your gratitude for all the years Tallige people have watched over them and kept them safe.
 
Several Messiahs have come to us seeking a home and speaking with honey in their mouth, only for us to find ourselves much poorer when they leave town. Sometime we are poorer in money, sometimes we are poorer in people, this time it seems we will lose the rights to preserve and protect the sacred grounds of the ancestors final resting place. Mr. Morgan, the tone of your letters and the recent dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commisioners leads me to believe you have over stepped your bounds. I do not believe anyone can speak for the Tallige people when they speak behind closed doors. This is one members opinion, and this memeber wil launch a full scale investigation into your activity in Scioto County and I will also be in touch with my Representative, and Congressman about our rights.
 
The Tallige people have been gaurdian of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound. Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the

Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them.In doing the programs they hope to broaden the childrens knowledge of Indian culture. It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do i want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY.
 
January 1994, Don Greefeather of the Loyal Band of Shawnee, came to Ohio from Oklahoma and we welcomed him with a fire and gifts. I drove 90 miles in a snow storm to welcome him. On reaching the grounds, the snow was up to my calves and I stood in the circle with him and his people for close to an hour. Later we all went to Shawnee University where we listened to his speech. Don't tell me about welcoming people, I was raised in a traditional home by a Cherokee mother. I know traditions and it is not traditional to come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence. You have acted in a bad way and I for one am telling you about your bad manners, and your shabby treatment of my people.
 
Barbara Crandell
 
----- Original Message -----

From: Network Operations <sysop@nvi.net>

To: <naao@ascenture.net>

Cc: <eillo@bright.net>; <skipriffe@earthlink.net>; <pauadams@cherokee_nation.zzn.com>; <peadams@zoomnet.net>; <eboggs@zoomnet.net>; <captain@afinc.net>; <BPalmer@pop.uky.edu>; <zginger44@yahoo.com>

Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: Bird Effigy Mound

 
Greetings,
 
I also speak only for myself. I do not represent the Tallige or the Commissioners nor do I represent any group. My words are my own.
 
The statement in your message to me

- "In a recent meeting I was given copies of two e-mails signed by you. These e-mails suggest that you believe The Tallige Fire people have been amiss in their treatment of other Indian people." -
 
I do not know what you were given or to what you are referring to. If you would be so kind as to clarify exactly what you are referring to I would be most appreciative.
 
The statement

- "I do not believe you have a humble opinion, your attitude is one of arrogance, with overtones of grandoise." -
 
Your words do not make my statements false. Truth does not require your permission to exist, it stands by itself. If candid and direct discussion is viewed by you as being "arrogance, with overtones of grandoise", I respectfully suggest that your letter to me is overflowing with "arrogance, with overtones of grandoise" and a good measure of self importance. Your introduction as being Co-Chariperson of the Native American Alliance of Ohio is of no consequence and meaningless unless you wish to represent your words as being those of the Alliance. Unless of course you wish to impress me with your "Title".
 
Regarding the statement

- "You hint at "several independant organizations" with out revealing their names. One can only wonder if they have been told the truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound." -
 
I have shared the names and contact information with the Tallige and the Commission on several occasions. All anyone need do is ask. I did not contact any organization or individual to educate, persuade, or complain to them in anyway about any Tallige matters. I called them seeking advice and help in how to best preserve and protect the mound site and surrounding grounds or to gather information they had relating to the history of the mound. As to whether or not they have been told the "truth of all matters pertaining to the Bird Effigy Mound" I can not say. I would suggest that you share information with them if you have something to share. As I do not represent the Tallige I said nothing regarding the Tallige involvement. I did not contact them to discuss the Tallige, but rather to seek assistance and information about successful strategies to preserve and repair the site. I have in fact stated that the actions of the Tallige stand on their own.
 
Specifically they are:

- OSU Anthropology Department regarding the anthropology, archeology and carbon dating activities done to establish the origins and identification of the skeletal remains removed from the mound.
- Ohio Historical Society
- National Parks Service
- members of the Ohio House of Representatives
- Cultural Resources Center of the National Museum of the American Indian
- American Indian Ritual Object Repatriation Foundation
- Eastern and Western Cherokee Nations
- The Loyal Order of Shawnee and the inter tribal group established to manage NAGPRA  issues
- The Kaw Nation
- The Kickapoo Nation
- The Osage Nation
- The Ponca Nation
- The Pawnee Nation
- The Quapaw Nation
- The Miami Nation
 
Regarding the statement
- "You refer to the Mound having your ancestors buried in it, yet I fail to see any reference to your gratitude for all the years Tallige people have watched over them and kept them safe." -
 
You behave as though you have the right to demand of others gratitude for what you consider to be the good works of the Tallige. Why did the Tallige watch over the ancestors? Was it so that they would be esteemed and honored by others? Was it so that they could march around in a prideful way beating the drum saying "look what we have done!" Was it so they could say "We have done this great and honorable thing. Now all native peoples owe us their gratitude."? Or did the Tallige watch over the ancestors remembering the old ways and honoring those that have gone before us?
 
I have been taught by my Elders that a true gift is given with an open hand. Never with the expectation of reward or obligation to the receiver. Never in a prideful or arrogant manner. To care for the ancestors is an honor - not a right to be granted by others. My gratitude, my thanks, belong to Creator for providing the means by which our ancestors have been preserved these many thousands of years. The time that the Tallige have been involved is not even the smallest moment of a birds heart beat and my involvement is even less than that. I, like the Tallige, am forever tied to the mound and our ancestors. A piece of me and of you will forever remain there.
 
I have consistently stated that the site is the sacred burial location of the ancestors of many - and that my ancestors are buried there. On many occasions when speaking with others that have shared with me differences of opinion with the Tallige, including ex members of the Tallige, I always make it a point to tell them that while they may have nothing good to say about the Tallige no one can change the fact that if the Tallige had not been involved these many years the mound would have been destroyed and desecrated long ago. Having shared that opinion with those the emails were intended for I of course did not reiterate it in the emails you may have seen.
 
Regarding the statement
- "Several Messiahs have come to us seeking a home and speaking with honey in their mouth, only for us to find ourselves much poorer when they leave town. Sometime we are poorer in money, sometimes we are poorer in people, this time it seems we will lose the rights to preserve and protect the sacred grounds of the ancestors final resting place." 
 
I appreciate your sharing the experiences the Tallige have had with others. Mr. Collins has told me of some events in the past similar to your references.
 
Apparently the information shared with you by others grossly misrepresents my activities and objectives. I have never sought a home with the Tallige nor have I ever represented myself as some sort of "Messiah". In fact I find the entire notion of a "Messiah" repulsive. I have consistently declined requests for pictures and newspaper interviews. I have insisted that credit for any positive results be given to others. I am just a two legged. The record shows I have respectfully asked that our ancestors be left in peace and that the mound be preserved and restored to its original condition. The only thing I have asked of the Tallige is to speak with one voice. I have asked for nothing more and certainly not asked for anything for myself.
 
Opportunity exists for the Tallige to participate in the disposition of these matters in a good way. If they choose to proceed independent of their agreement to participate in a collaboration of interested parties it is of course their right to do so. A decision not to participate in that manner will make more difficult a happy resolution to the issues at hand.
 
If it is to be that the Tallige lose the opportunity to participate in the preservation and protection of the mound it will only be the result of the actions of Tallige and its leadership. We all make our own medicine. I was told early on that the Tallige "let the Commission believe what ever they wanted to believe" about what would be done with the grounds if the Commission allowed the Tallige to lease the land. There was even a grand business plan drawn up for the development of the grounds. None of it was sincere and little was ever done. I respectfully suggest that the fruits of those seeds of deception have been shown in many ways. I understand that there was a time among the people when the members numbered 500 or more. When participation of many made the work light. Now there is but a handful that are involved in any meaningful way and the membership is greatly reduced.
 
The statement
- "Mr.Morgan, the tone of your letters and the recent dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commissioners leads me to believe you have over stepped your bounds. I do not believe anyone can speak for the Tallige people when they speak behind closed doors." -
 
This is perplexing. I have no idea what you are referring to. While I understand that your interpretation of "the tone of your letters " is disturbing to you. I have no direct knowledge of the dialogue between the Attorney for Tallige Fire and the Scioto county Commissioners.
 
I have never attempted to represent the Tallige and have never presented myself as doing so. In fact on the one and only occasion that the council of the Tallige gave me words to take to the Commissioners I was unable to do so because the day after the words were given to me the words changed and became dead. The words I was given were that the Tallige would ask for one seat on the board of directors for a trust. The next day I was told by Mr. Collins that the Tallige wanted more than one seat. The fact that I could not and would not take dead words to the Commission was shared with Mr. McCord, Mr. Collins and others.
 
I have never spoken for the Tallige in any way. I have from day one been animate in my position that I speak only for myself, that I do not listen to the words of anger or discontent of others telling me what another has said. That I will listen only to the words that are spoken directly to me by the person that has something to say to me. I do not hear gossip and innuendo.
 
Every official request and suggestion for protecting and preserving the mound made by me to the Commissioners has been done in open session on the appropriate days that the Commission meets. I am unaware of any closed door activities. If you have any evidence of improper activities I would respectfully suggest that you share that evidence with the Commission.
 
The statement
- "This is one members opinion, and this memeber wil launch a full scale investigation into your activity in Scioto County and I will also be in touch with my Representative, and Congressman about our rights." -
 
It is certainly your right to proceed as you deem best. If I can be of any assistance please do not hesitate to ask. I would invtite others to follow your example of accepting an active role in these matters. However I do not see that trying to find fault is a productive activity.
 
Regarding the statement
- "The Tallige people have been gaurdian of the Bird Effigy Mound for several years and never considered themselves to be the sole owner. Not once in the eight years I have been a member have I heard anyone say or do anything disrespectful while they are at the mound." -
 
It is my humble opinion that the Tallige do indeed desire to control all aspects of the grounds.
 
This opinion is based on:
- the sign out front that states that the site is the home of the Tallige
- the business cards that state the address of the Tallige is the mound site
- the stated desire of the Tallige to control a trust or foundation with majority representation on the board(s)
- to control and direct any funding for the preservation and restoration activities
- the words of the Tallige council to me that if the Tallige can not participate in the preservation of the  mound they will "strike the war pole" and there will be war
- the establishment of a sweat lodge built into the back side of the burial mound
- the stomp grounds and ceremonial circle built at the site
- the offices in the trailer on the site
- the use of the mound site for Tallige business meetings
- the decision to proceed independently in the discussions with the Commissioners
- the notion of funding preservation and restoration with moneys derived from gambling
 
All this points to objectives not in keeping with the Tillage's stated mission to preserve and repair the mound in cooperation with all interested parties in a good way.
 
As for doing anything disrespectful, it is my understanding from Mr. Collins and other members of the Tallige that there are burials all around the area - not just directly in the mound itself - if this is true, and I believe it to be so - the Tallige do indeed dance on the bones of the ancestors of many. I have been taught that this is very disrespectful to other nations that claim common ancestry to those buried in the area. It has been shared with me by Elders of other nations that such activities are indeed a blood offense. One who pours the water has shared with me that a sweat lodge built into a burial mound is disrespectful in the extreme - I have no reason to disbelieve him.
 
I understand and respect that in the opinion of Tallige no disrespect was intended and that the Tallige do not believe they have done anything wrong. Recognize that others disagree and it is their right to do so.
 
The statement
- "Every year, hundreds of school children come to the grounds and members of the Tallige Fire Nation put on programs for them.In doing the programs they hope to broaden the childrens knowledge of Indian culture" -
 
It is true that the Tallige once received, in the past, State of Ohio recognition for those types of activities. They have not however, to my knowledge, received any recognition from any Federally recognized tribes. It is my understanding that for the last year and a half very little if anything has been done in the way of educational programs. I have no doubt that there are true descendants of Cherokee blood among the Tallige. I too am descended of Cherokee blood and my family carries on traditional Cherokee ways as best we know how. I do not however "teach" Indian culture nor do I "teach" Cherokee ways. I have always made it clear that anything of a traditional nature I can only share. That I am not a teacher and I only share what my family traditions are.
 
Members of the Cherokee nation have shared with me that the notion of state regognized wannabes teaching Indian culture is repulsive. I would ask you what endorsements do the Tallige have from the Cherokee nation? Are the Federal Nations involved in any way with the Tallige's "educational programs"? By what means of calculation do the Tallige claim to be a "Nation"? The Tallige do not meet any Federal guidlines that I am aware of and for that matter they do not meet any guidlines of the Cherokee Nation I am aware of. Yet the Tallige claim to be qualified to teach true Cherokee ways and Indian culture. Who among the Tallige has been trained in the ways of the teaching lodge? Where is the spirtual leader? It is one thing to _share_ the traditions of your family. It is a very different thing to present yourself as a teacher or to attempt to represent a culture that has not given you its permission to do so.
 
It was shared with me that the primary focus of the Tallige for the last year or so has been the establishment of the bingo hall and those activities have consumed a great deal of time and resources leaving little time of late for the activities you describe.
 
The statement

- "It is not the ways of Indian people to have Museums. Museums are a white euro thing that is used to make Indians think they are being honored. I do not want a museum at the mound nor do i want a gift shop there. The Birds Effigy Mound is a cemetery. Plain and Simple as that, it is a CEMETERY" -
 
Happily here we find common ground and complete agreement. It has never been my suggestion to construct a museum or gift shop _on_ the mound site. Quite the opposite. I have suggested that if it was the desire of the Tallige (please reference the business plan put forth by the Tallige to develop the mound site several years ago) or others to pursue those types of activities that a parks district, bounded by lands _other than the mound

TheRebel

  • Guest
Re: Tallige Cherokee of Ohio
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2008, 08:01:50 am »
Continued ..
************************************

site. Quite the opposite. I have suggested that if it was the desire of the Tallige (please reference the business plan put forth by the Tallige to develop the mound site several years ago) or others to pursue those types of activities that a parks district, bounded by lands _other than the mound site _ , be established by adoption of a resolution by the County Commissioners and submitted to the appropriate probate judge for implementation. This would provide a structure for funding and lands, as well as management guidlines to place a museum, gift shop, learning center, village recreation and other activities of a business or tourism nature. It would also meet the public responsibility the Commission has to manage lands in its care for the greater public good.
 
I have on occasions suggested that some county land surrounding the mound site be made available for purchase. It is my hope that the needs of the Tallige people for a place to call their own can be accomplished by this. I also hope that such land would be close to the mound site and that the Tallige would activly participate in the care of the mound and our ancestors.
 
I have suggested _exactly_ as you have that the mound site is a cemetery. That it should be declared a cemetery and enjoy the protection with enforcement that the earlier work others provided when, about a year and a half ago, the laws were amended to include Indian burial grounds. That the entire area be repaired, that all buildings and structers, construction materials, sidewalks, new growth trees, as well as debris from the 1909 county home and dog pound and county garage be removed. That the area be re-seeded with old grasses and plants as it was in the old days (These are available from horticulture preservation organizations). That the site be maintained by traditional peoples from many nations. That the site be made available for ceremonies by all nations. I have offered these suggestions as a starting point. The suggestions of others must be incorporated into a plan, developed in open workshops, and that the proccess be expedited so that the work that needs to be done can begin while the weather is good for
such happy activities.
 
It is with a sad heart I have seen the Tallige pull away from the open hand of the Commissioners and the agreement made the first day I spoke to the Commission. It is my understanding that all of the suggestions made are possible.
 
The statement
-"Don't tell me about welcoming people, I was raised in a traditional home by a Cherokee mother. I know traditions and it is not traditional to come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence. You have acted in a bad way and I for one am telling you about your bad manners, and your shabby treatment of my people."
 
I have never said anything to you about welcoming people in a bad way. In fact we have not met that I am aware of. I have never "told" you anything until this correspondence. You are indeed fortunate to have been raised in a traditional home. Many of our people have not had the privilege of knowing their family traditions.
 
The way I see the situation the Commissioners have canceled the sale of the land, invited open and productive input about how to protect, preserve and repair the grounds, gathered together all of the funary objects and put them under lock and key awaiting final decisions, offered to repatriate both the bones and the artifacts to the mound, are willing to consider greatly expanded amounts of land for protection and management, are not opposed to multi-nation gatherings in the historic area of lower Shawnee Town, are
enthusiastic about providing formal cultural diversity educational opportunities to the community as a whole, are firmly committed to the long term preservation of the land, are willing to take the time required to work it all out, and have respectfully listened to all that would share productive input.
 
If you feel that by my participation in these good results I have somehow "come into another Indian Territory and take liberties with thier exsistence" then so be it. I do not share that view.
 
I mean no disrespect to you or your people. I tell you that by your comments to me, based on the false words of others, you disrespect your ancestors and my family. You would take issue with me about things you never took the time to be involved directly in and make accusations based on lies. I am very certain that whom ever presented you with the information you base your words to me on has other objectives. It is also very clear that what ever was told to you was incomplete at best and certainly not presented in a true way. There were several incidents by official representatives of the Tallige that were of great disrespect and insult to my family. I say were, because they are covered with earth, and I will not discuss them with anyone. As I shared with the council of the Tallige, perhaps in some small way by my actions in those matters, others will find a way to mend the circle and let our ancestors rest in peace with honor.
 
I have meet many of the Tallige with good hearts and I have been told by others that you are a kind and good person. It is in the spirit of that understanding that I have responded to your letter.
 
Warmest regards,
George Morgan
 
 
Wantabee????

Barbara Crandell <naao@avolve.net> wrote:

Mike,

I would like to respond to Mr. Allens, complaints or should I say his condemning character assassination. I am saddened to see he has gone back to 1887 to grind his racist ax. The topic he choose is one I am very familiar with.

Let us start with the 1987 burials that the Tallige people conducted and Mr. Allen so glowing recited.

The only way the people of Scioto county could get those ancestors to put them back in the ground was to promise the politicians they could film the burial. Several of the local politician were up for election in

1988 and they wanted to influence the public on how kind, caring and wonderful they were to allow the local Native people to bury their dead. their reasoning seem to be, every body will forget about the abuse

just as quick as we smooth the ground over the dead. NOT!!! NOT!! They will never forget.

Also they will never forget how when they ask the Eastern Band of Cherokee, Western Cherokee, several bands of Shawnee, American Indian Movement, Ohio Historical Society for help and guidance the Native

communities ask for money ranging from 2,500.00 to 8,000.00 when the Tallige said they did not have any money the Indian people turned their back. So the Tallige people turned to the only person who would was

willing to help. HUGH GIBBS

Trusting Hugh Gibbs may have been the worst mistake of the 20th century. He told those people how to conduct a traditional Cherokee burial. He presented himself as a medicine person with knowledge of such

things. They were trusting and naive. It is very unfortunate how a person with a line of con and handful of bogus papers can cause havoc on a group of innocent people. I am not saying he is not Native only that

he has a bad spirit.

The Tallige people are some of the finest folks you could ever meet. Now and then you have a bad apple who can not fit or work in the confines of the tribal structure. They stand on the outside and throw stones because they can't get a long with anybody. These people write letters that the tribe did not sanction. I have read some of them that was so bad it made my hair hurt.

Are they a tribe? I don't know. What is a tribe? Is it something that the Federal Government came up with? We all have to live in the manner which brings us the most honor and comfort. My folks choose to live away from the control of the nation. That does not make me white. OLiver Collins has been vilified and talked about by every person from the pope to the street beggars. What has he done to deserve it. Well let me tell you a few of the things he has done. He worked like a dog, took abuse from the Scioto county commissioners for years to keep the Bird Mound safe and clean. Every time the lease came up for renewal the commissioners would say "we will only sign this lease if you promise to put in a gift shop and a tourist center" . Every time Oliver would say "just as soon as we get the money we will do this thing." Then along

came some dude from Cleveland and said he would build this great shop and hire local people to run it. Tallige people were given the boot. They went into Adam County and bought land. They have the Bingo hall that has been making enough money to make payments on the land and the hall. maybe they shouldn't have called them selves Cherokee Nation but wasn't that what the great self determination bill was about?

I was raised with the notion that Indian people were Nations of the Original inhabitants of this land. Some people think being recognized by the very people who killed their people and stole their land makes them special and gives the right to say the rest of us do not exist.

I am Cherokee, I was born to a Cherokee mother, my grandmother, great grand mother, great great grandmother, great great great grandmother was Cherokee that is what made me a Cherokee. I know where these people lived ,and died. NO one on this earth can make me be any thing else.I have never ask the Cherokee Indian Nations for any thing. I have made a good living for my family. Raised my children, Gave them a good start in life and then was fortunate enough to have land to give them all a homestead. They are good Cherokee people, educated and gifted with skills to work and raise their children.

I owe no man, I respect everybody for what they say they are, I do not have the power to determine who is Indian. I hear how this or that person is not Indian, how do you make this determination? What god do you pray to to receive this power. My Creator smiles on me and gives me much comfort and guidance I thank him all day for my long life and for the smile of my great grand children.

Let us live in peace with each other, there are many enemies of Native people out there.

I am not one of them.

Barbara Crandell