The United People of the Cherokee Nation

[walking-soft]

Now I am really confused. ??? Please correct me if I am wrong. Is this forum suppose to be about fake medicine and spiritual people that duke people out of their money for self serving purposes? I only have a list of people of the UPCN that are listed as "chiefs" according to websters...chief: The person of the highest rank.   A chieftain is one who is head of a group, clan or tribe.

And why in your earlier post " ok, now I think you're not be truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the ones to say NA". When you google to the site here and read about who Nafps it states in the last paragraph you will read the term  "native" is used. This is the reason I am confused.
I don't see where a group of people that use the term chief( isn't the president of the united states called "chief"?)

I don't understand why it is ok for churches to ask for donations or as some say tithes, organizations whether it be a country club, school pto's, even the Nafps here asking for donations, yet say the UPCN because they use the term chief makes them any more guilty than any other organization? I haven't read anywhere yet that they are running ceremonies and charging people money.
This is only a observation, any response would be appreciated :)

[educatedindian]

"Is this forum suppose to be about fake medicine and spiritual people that duke people out of their money for self serving purposes?"

Yes, but people routinely have questions about groups claiming to be "tribes" like UPCN.

" I only have a list of people of the UPCN that are listed as "chiefs" according to websters...chief: The person of the highest rank.   A chieftain is one who is head of a group, clan or tribe."

Joe claims to be "chief" of a "tribe" of that isn't a tribe at all. And according to him, how he got the title is not important.

I'll let the Cherokees here talk about how Cherokees chose their chiefs. For many nations, a chief is a title with no power but much respect. For some others it's only someone who counsels, again with no authority other than people willing to listen.

The UPCN, best I can tell, doesn't follow that. They're "chiefs" much along the lines the Boy Scouts have. 

"When you google to the site here and read about who Nafps it states in the last paragraph you will read the term  "native" is used."

I use Native and NDN interchangably. I was just observing that literally every person I've ever met who said "Native American" was white.

"I don't see where a group of people that use the term chief( isn't the president of the united states called "chief"?)"

In the song Hail to the Chief, yes. Or Commander in Chief. Or Mr. President.

"I don't understand why it is ok for churches to ask for donations or as some say tithes,"

Christian churches have different traditions from Native ones.

"organizations whether it be a country club,"

If the UPCN wanted to call itself a club, that'd actually be much more honest, because that's what they are.

"even the Nafps here asking for donations"

Enough to pay the server, no more. The UPCN has a membership fee.

"I haven't read anywhere yet that they are running ceremonies and charging people money."

That's part of why they're still under Research Needed.

Also notice they allow whites who want to play NDN into their "tribe."

"This is only a observation, any response would be appreciated."

Sure, no problem. Let me ask, how do you think we should have talked about them? It seems to me that you also wanted to bring up some other more general issues, like the enrolled/unenrolled divide. Remember I'm not enrolled either, but I would never call myself "Apache Chief of Band X."

[Moma_porcupine]

Weheli / walking-soft , what Al is saying in this thread makes sense to me , but , I am not sure where you stand on this. Maybe I am just not understanding how you see this ? 

I kind of agree about the editing .  It gives the impression maybe the person who was edited said something so intellegent and irrefutable , the only way to win the arguement was to edit what they said .  Having got to read many posts before and after editing ,I now realize it is usually the really beside the point rants that get edited . Assuming it is not unreasonably long , personal attacks generally say more about the person who makes the attack than the person attacked , but when it is edited , no one knows what was said  .

It might be helpful if you ( walking-soft who also posts under the user name Weheli) could go to the thread about questionable tribes, and explain what it is about newly formed Cherokee tribes you see as creating problems.

That other thread is here ;

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

You have many times expressed your concerns about fake tribes in this forum ,and I am not clear what it is about these new tribes that concern you . ?

Earlier in this same thread , in Reply #3 , posting as Weheli , you said ;

"Have been doing some research on this bunch. I agree this certainly looks like an identity scam. Asking for all this info., esp. the birth certificate, will give them all rights to your indenity, esp. with asking eye color ect.."

"A lot of wrongly stated info.. The way these clans are set up is not Cherokee, I find many things phoney here."

Now , posting under your other user name walking-soft , you seem to be suggesting NAFPS shouldn't be concerned about newly reconstituted tribes with Chiefs .  What changed ?

Then, yesterday , again posting as Weheli

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=935.0

Re: Yet More Groups Claiming to Be Cherokee Tribes
Reply #3 Weheli

'WHY DO THEY INSIST on calling themselves TRIBES?"

How are the newly formed Cherokee tribes that you consider phoney different , from ones you seem willing to accept as newly formed tribes providing a needed service for unenrolled Indian people ?  It is a complicated and confusing subject .

In my opinion , if people are warned about getting involved with a born again Indian tribe , there needs to be a good reason why this warning is given , the reasons need to be clearly explained . People need to understand these reasons are based in fair and consistant principals . If in one post, people suggest a tribe is a bunch of phoney wannabes , and then in another post the same people defend the same behavior as benevolant , the inconsistancy of these concerns, just comes across as unprincipaled harrassment , and sabatoges the whole point of trying to educate people about these issues .


I hope you will clarify your position .

[frederica]

I perceive many of these "tribes", Clans or what ever to be a problem.  They teach false Traditions, they solicit monies. Many are 501(c)3's which make them eligable for Grant monies. I have had one person tell me that all they have to say is it is for Education and they get monies. Several of these groups have been caught in scams by misusing Grant monies. What happen's to the money? Do they donate it to Haskell, or to the CNO, Eastern Band, or any other Tribal Council for educational purposes? Bet not. To me, it is monies legimate Natiions could use and it's sorta like paying people to do research on how fast ketchup will move in 5 minutes. If they are just clubs, which most are, or heritage groups, these seem to be mostly social. And as long as they don't cross the fine line of misrepresentation or exploitation they are generally not a problem. frederica

[walking-soft]

M.P.
My last post, if you reread it again, is not a question of what I believe the UPCN is. I was asking questions concerning the post between Al and Bear Warrior.
It has to do with the "political correctness" of what was said.
Somethings that were stated if read by new people coming into the group, might lead them to believe that there are two standards in here.
That is my point, no more no less.  You ask me why I am concerned with these newly formed tribes? Anyone who cares about the culture would be concerned.
Does it not bother you what is out there?
Being here in this group should answer your question of where I stand.  :)

[JosephSWM]

I agree with you Frederica but I have heard from a few sources in Kentucky about the amounts of money some of these groups receive. The largest amount one group received (from another group actually) was $500. Nobody will get rich on that. Kentucky seems to be fertile soil for growing blue grass and Cherokees.

Joseph

[frederica]

I think that right Joseph. I have heard of $1000 every year. Most of the large ones I have heard of are in Ark., they pulled in over ten grand on a one time thing. One of their "Chiefs" made more that Chad Smith. They really have to be caught in some illegal activity. That only happens every once in a while. All you can really do is educate unsupecting people about these groups. frederica

[JosephSWM]

I agree with you Frederica, with that kind of money going around its a different story. Sometimes these folks can be busted on unrelated things such as Eagle and animal parts. Depending on what is on their state DNR endangered and threatened list. Like here in Maryland you can't have bear parts (or at least you can't sell them) but in Pennsylvania you can.

Anyway, besides that most people, like Al Capone of yesteryear, usually get caught on some tax law, that is of course if they are being investigated. I know from personal experience that if you try to report someone to the IRS the IRS will also investigate you.

Joseph

[frederica]

Joseph, That's a very good idea. I bet there is a lot of little Al out there. Since they are not State or Federal Nations or Tribes. Probably about 50% sell crafts. And as non-profit Corporation they must have a accountant of sorts I wonder how much of the profits from these sales are kicked back to the Corporation Tribe, and how much is pocketed by the non-exempt individual. Thanks. frederica

[Needs More Caffeine]

Speaking of crafts and catching frauds...How likely is it to be enforced if you turn a group in for violating the Indian Arts & Crafts Act?

Will they give people a warning first?  And eventually go after them?

I know a lot of the wannabe groups in my area sell crafts, and they put the terms "Cherokee," "Shawnee," "Indian," etc. on them illegally.  (I think there is a labeling exception where you can say you are "Descended" if descended but unenrolled, but these people usually do not say descended...they just say "Cherokee" or "Shawnee," etc.  Sometimes they even give the name of their unrecognized tribe as to legitimize the work.  I think the legitimate unrecognized groups in my area, like the Miami of Indiana, are largely legally savvy enough to say "Miami descended" rather than Miami, much as it must chafe.)

It would be handy to sic the DOI on the "Cherokee" kooks, if it might do any good in de-legitimizing them and keeping them from snaring more unwitting people.

[frederica]

As far as I know they are suppose to put "Indian-Style" on the craft if they are not a member of either a Federal or State Recognized Nation or Tribe. What to do go to http://www.indigenous-art.com/laws.html  If you are buying at some of these Powwows you may have problems, If you buy from a dealer or trader it may be easier to take back. One of the problems I have seen is that the Commission in Santa Fe does not have enough investigators to follow up all over the country. frederica

[Needs More Caffeine]

I don't buy at their pow-wows personally, but was thinking of the idea as a way to take the wind out of the sails of some of these groups...especially with some of them trying to get on the commission in Indiana (and some of them already being on it) at the expense of the very few legitimate tribes in the state.

[educatedindian]

The most famous case of someone busted on selling crafts illegally was Ward Churchill. I think they fined him, but more importantly it's always been something people could point to that tells people right away he has no ethics.

[frederica]

I believe the law was put into existance because of the Bell Corp. and the like. They were making and Stuckey's was selling in the Southwest. Indians were used to operate the machines, so they were calling it "Indian Made" The tourist were buying as it was cheap. Then came the imports. China, Italy, Taiwan.  Wholesalers like Crazy Crow have to label them as they are, (Imports). What can be accomplished is that make sure the PowWow follows the Arts and Craft Laws and advertizes the same. There are some that even check enrollment cards before they admit the vendors. Check with the PowWow  organizer and see if that is what they do. If they don't find out why not. I see many vendors with sign now that state, "all items are not NDN made".  But you have to ask to find out. frederica

[JosephSWM]

As far as I know there is enforcment of the law. It may protect some but it hurts many others, such as Cherokee artist and activist Jimmie Durham, who now cannot be considered an Indian artist. When this act was first going around, being thought up that is, they wanted to apply it to the performing arts too. Something like only Indians could play Indians but then many voiced opposition and it was not included.

Anyway, just invite the DNR to one of the powwows and let them stroll around awhile.