Kevin Dubrow, Nancy Heraty AKA Kevin Redbear, Desert Lizard White Owl Crone Woma

[thetruth]

I haven't checked back on this thread in a while but want to encourage others who have left the group to reach out to me if they'd like to talk about it.

[milehighsalute]

ha.......i thought this had to do with the singer from quiet riot who died a few years ago

[nowyoureshrinking]

This group self-identified as “The Cult.”  It was meant to be ironic, sort of a passive aggressive moniker, adopted by the group’s leader.  IMO, it was used to maintain status quo with existing members, and make the community seem non-threatening to those transitioning in.  He always said in a smug voice with a wide smile “You can leave whenever you want.  No one is forcing you to stay.”   He used this type of paradoxical brainwashing frequently in my many years with this group.  He was a good manipulator.  The truth is that this group met just about every criteria of a cult.  Everyone drank the proverbial Kool-Aid.  Anyone who left this group is still healing from the psychic damage.  Anyone who remains and who still defends its former leader and his tenets, is and will be forever asleep…and quite dangerous.  As someone commented above, many of these cult members are current therapists.  You just have to pray hard for their clients. 

At first glance, the group was attractive to me.  Everyone seemed to be liberal and open-minded, like myself.  Many members were studying to be artists, teachers, therapists, etc.  Everyone seemed to want to be more, and to seek a deeper spiritual life.  A lot of the work people did was honest, altruistic, and important.  Though at times it still had to be scrutinized by the group, and ultimately approved by its narcissistic leader.  To be fair, many of us didn’t know how much we were being manipulated and controlled.  It was easy to be convinced our families were toxic, because at times, they were.  Not nearly as toxic as he (Dubrow) projected them to be.  He had his own family issues.  For a group that studied and professed about the dangers of transference, displacement, attachment, co-dependence, etc., we were all neck deep in it.   And for a group which supposedly supported and defended cultural and racial diversity, it was, and stayed, mostly vanilla.  Which always kind of bugged me.  Dubrow often used the word "Fayguhluh," Yiddish for homosexual, to refer to those in the group who he deemed as small or weak; basically whoever didn't conform to his warped view of masculinity.  The group had twisted views on masculine and feminine.  They’d constantly speak about gender with this Half Jungian, Half-Freudian gobbledygook.  Not to mention that it was expected that you only date people within the community.   If you didn’t, you were ridiculed or ostracized, or encouraged to recruit them. 

To those that left:   I still ask myself why so many of us stayed and didn’t question or challenge him (at least not as much as we do now).  Hindsight 20/20.  We were lonely.  We were lost.   But many of us got stronger.  Clearer.   We are much better healers without his, and the cult's, influence.  And I think…I hope…that now we know ourselves a little more intimately… and know how really messed up all of it was. 

[disillusioned]

Hello readers,

If there is one take-away I can offer before beginning, it is this thought alone.

COMMUNITY CANNOT BE BOUGHT OR SOLD! ! ! ! !

Thank you for reading my first post, and particularly for creating this space for much needed reflection, healing, accountability, and investigation. I'd like to first introduce myself as one of the former members of the now defunct Sangha/Community/Cult/Dinosaurs. I shotgunned the "proverbial kool-aid."

As overwhelming as it is to pour over all of the posts, and I've only been able to take in a little at a time,   I am glad this exists.  As a preface, I don't know if any of the information I have to share will shed new light, or if this may just add to the choir of uproar, but it's become crucial for me, in this moment and time, to step forward and have a voice.

It's simple for me. I think what Kevin Dubrow did was wrong. I think his massive ego and insatiable thirst for power corrupted him. The left over shame and embarrassment I have in this moment is not in response to having become a member in the first place. Instead, I am haunted by the fear that if he were still with us, I wouldn't have left the community. That statement speaks to the undeniable hold he had on those of us on the inside. I was controlled by my own fear, which he preyed upon, in group after group, session after session. He weaponized our deepest, most primal fears against us, and it worked. Many of us, including myself felt inferior and ill-equipped to confront "The Culture" which was full of non-journeyers who were marked as "Muggles." We didn't stand a chance without him, or so he said. Lies. I, too, used the fears of others as a weapon to coerce fellow members to stick around to their detrement. There was a sophisticated system in place for policing the behavior amongst us. I am deeply sorry to anyone in the community that I lied to, sold out, or manipulated out of loyalty to a power-hungry "Red Bear."  We were not trusted to trust ourselves. Had it been a safe and healthy community, people would have left and carried on with their lives, and it should have been an acceptable practice to do that. Endings are an important, healthy part of the process. It's unethical to keep members for 10+ years. Yeah, that happened. Fucking bonkers.

No, I'm not a victim. I was a willing participant, and because of that, I have a lot to be accountable for. In my own search for a mentor and community, I played a role in Kevin Dubrow's scheming economy. I am deeply regretful that I was complicit in countless ways during my time with the community. I am regretful that I participated in vision quests, spirit guides, creating prayer ties, 7 direction rituals, etc. The list truly goes on. Obliviously, I participated in cultural appropriation at some its of its worst. I am deeply sorry for the unintentional pain I've caused. As a result, I am here to listen. I am here to respond. I am here to share. I am open to being corrected about any ill usage of terminology, even in this post. I am simply stepping forward, shedding light, and owning up. Thanks for reading.


Over and out,
Disillusioned

[findingtruth]

I am a previous client/"mentoree" of one of the LCSWs who participated in the dinosaurs/community/Sengha led by Red Bear.

I started my work with this LCSW when I was just a teenager. I was introduced to Red Bear and my therapist's community at his storytelling event, only after a year or so of being in therapy. It's important to note that when I started therapy, that's all I thought I was getting into, mental health psychotherapy.

Within a short amount of time, my teenage support group slowly turned into a miniature version of the community that has already been described in the previous forum posts. None of us really knew what we were getting into. But, we were young, lonely, and searching for identity and meaning. So of course we all followed it. We wanted to trust our therapist's method. It all happened so quickly. And it all fell apart so fast. The only friends I have from my "sangha" are the people that I've reached out to apologize to for shunning them when they left.

I'm now in my early twenties. With my guide name, fellow journeyers, and shared moral code, I was certain I knew who I was, I knew my vocation, and I thought I knew myself. But to be honest, most of what I experience now is existential crises and lots of uncertainty. A lot of what I learned about myself and my personality still remains true, but I feel like I'm on a new path of self-discovery, and truly learning what it means to love myself and just be. This is why "echo chamber" dynamics like this one are severely dangerous. Like another post in the forum said, I feel like my spirituality and growth stood at a stand still after a certain point. Using Zen/Buddhist/Hindu/Zuni/Lakota rituals, although meaningful and sacred, was wrong for the context. I am deeply sorry for participating in these rituals in this given context.

I often times have great difficulty describing or understanding what I went through these past few years. While I'm grateful for what I learned about healthy relationships, strength, self-awareness, and the development of some of my gifts and creativity, I now have to accept all of the trauma that I have endured on various "vision quests" and retreats, as well as weekly groups. I can't even count the times that I was humiliated and broke down in front of my group. I suffered from the competitive nature that this environment perpetuated. It's just not right. It's not fair. Seriously, thank you to all of you that have come forward to share your experience of Red Bear's community on this forum. It has helped me to more clearly understand what I've gone through.

One of the saddest parts, I think, is that we were all led to believe that the annual "vision quests" were the only chance we would have to act from or experience our true selves. And the only way to keep developing connection to my Self and Soul was through these quests. I believed that the "5 step model" was the only genuine way to connect with who I really was, to not act out of childhood wounds, and to be a real, spiritually awakened adult. This belief had led me to judge myself more harshly on a day to day basis. I couldn't trust myself. It's not self-love or acceptance. I understand paying for weekly sessions with a licensed counselor. But vision quests and retreats should have been free, with maybe a small fee, if anything. Not hundreds and thousands of dollars.

Me and my fellow group members regarded nearly everything else outside of our little community as "fake," "shallow," "meaningless," "ego," etc. My fellow group members and I idealized our mentor/therapist to no end. My mentor told us countless times that we were welcome to question them or challenge them. We were told "the doors right there, you can leave if you like." But, rarely anyone ever stepped up to this test. It always felt like a game or a test with a hidden meaning or purpose. It felt like a riddle that we had to solve. And of course, those that did walk away were shunned. Everyone in the group acted as if the person who left either succumbed to their childhood wounds, gave into unhealthy addictive patterns, etc. There was no balance, compassion, or understanding for those who left.

It has been very difficult to reflect upon all the ethical issues involved in my group. To know that rituals and actions I once praised and defended could be tried against in court. To know that my previous therapist who I idealized, and truly respected, loved, and cared for, could've lost their license in a heartbeat. After reading these forum posts, I can't help but have compassion for my mentor/therapist. They were probably very inspired by Red Bear's model, and given the echo chamber environment of "the community," probably believed that what they were doing was not only okay, but right, and in dire need given the way things are in our culture. However, I'm still thankful to be working with a different licensed professional, who affirms that what I've experienced is not okay.

I am not comfortable describing particular events in detail publicly on this forum. But I want to share my story, and I am willing to discuss privately. If you have any questions or comments, please reach out.

Thank you for reading,

findingtruth

[Jane1970]

It is interesting reading the myriad of responses here, the anger and betrayal many felt, and the confusion many were left with.  Anyone who wants to reach out is free to do so. I do not wish to malign anyone personally in this post.

I write to shed some light on what I feel may have happened.

The original "group" (a SMALL group of fewer then 10 people) began back in the late 90s/early 2000s. Consider  for a moment what that time was like - cell phones had just come into existence, and the Internet was a new thing (back then you couldn't exactly type "shaman" into Google and get thousands of pages worth of information). What Kevin Red Bear Dubrow was offering then was truly unique. He was an excellent one-to-one social worker. I personally witnessed many people's lives positively impacted by him over the years. Most people who saw him really didn't know much about any other religion than Christianity. As a Jewish man in DuPage County (largely Republican, largely Christian), he added something that most counselors could not. He brought a lot of experience to the table. He was truly a man of the 1960s. His vision for groups and communities was huge, and he attempted to enact this vision. His views at times were limited, and at times a bit old-fashioned (dare I say sexist?). He just didn't seem to understand modern life and had values that reminded me of a mixture of a 1950s workaholic man's man and a 1960s hippie. Confusing, I know.

I simply cannot emphasize enough how absolutely boring life in DuPage county in the 1990s and early 2000s was. It was like living on an island of Conservative Right Wing Christians and surviving a childhood of repression and abuse. He was a breath of fresh air.

For quite some time, the groups seemed to work. People were growing, and people didn't seem to want to leave them. The people who left in the beginning truly were people who could not confront their own demons, could not leave failing jobs, could not leave failing marriages, etc. Most of the original members were educated professionals - people in their mid to late 20s at the young end and 50s at the high end. These people weren't naïve. They had been brought up in abusive families for the most part. I prefer not to disclose too much about that as I would not want to take away anyone's privacy. People who had lived very closed off lives were finally becoming happy. He validated them and helped them find paths they really loved (jobs, soul mates, etc.).

Things began to change as he moved out of his separate place of business and had his clients come to his home. His children got older and moved out, and suddenly weekends were more of a time for his "community" to come together More and more people joined over the years. He also began to suffer ill health, and at the same time more and more people kept joining or being persuaded by members to join. Within about a three-year span, he almost died, doubled his community, and had several members marry and have children. There was simply no way to keep up with that growth in his main community. While that was happening, he was encouraging the older members to do the quests and retreats that once worked for him with their own clients.

A big issue here is that Kevin Red Bear Dubrow never really considered the impact HE had on people. No one could really BE him. He seemed to assume (in my opinion) that any of the social workers he trained could just do what he did, and from what I have seen, they just could not. He had a unique way of working with people, and he seemed to get cynical and frustrated (I can only guess), as he saw that he was getting older, and his "community" was pretty much doomed to fall apart. He based his original community very much on individual growth. It was also his business. After all, he was providing counseling. He ran into a few problems - and these were never discussed - but in retrospect, they were huge:

1. His original business model included mentoring people one-on-one and counseling regular people at the same time. So half of his clients (or more) were NOT in his community. He was not so reliant on people staying on his journey with him to make money. He was also not married at the time and because of that put a lot of time into his mentorees.

2. His health became very bad, and he needed to keep earning an income. In my opinion, he truly needed to retire but could not face that fact. He wasn't doing what was best for himself or for anyone. I can only guess money was an issue, but I do not know that for a fact. It could have also been fear of death.

3. The members of the community who could pay him regularly (they were older, had jobs, and they were just honestly much more competent in the world), wanted to move on. If they moved on, how would he handle the people he had just taken on? They weren't regularly paying him (they were seeing him free of charge, barely getting by and often getting monetary help from older members who took pity on them). The sad thing is that after he died, we went on to find out that many of these "poor young people" actually had wealthy and middle class families and had access to help.  For some reason, they preferred to not work, work part-time, and have all sorts of difficulties, often made up in their own heads. I believe this was an issue of HIS. He needed to tell them that they needed to pay him a certain amount for counseling and not dump these youngsters on the older group who needed to leave.

3. The older people felt they needed to stay with them as they were well aware they were the only ones paying (they were often barraged with emails about how he wasn't "being paid"). However, they were paying for all their own counseling and their retreats. They also had many "friends" (dare I call them that) in the group. They didn't want to "abandon" their friends or abandon him. It was obvious he was overwhelmed and needed the older people to stay, though he would often berate them for their "failings" (i.e., not being a miniature version of him). By the end, being in that group was like being a in a pressure cooker - he kept adding more and more things to do.

4. When he became very ill several years before his death, he did suffer some damage. His mentoring simply was NOT the same. He continued to take on people, and due to his stubborn nature refused to see that he really should have NOT been doing that. Therefore, the people who were new from years 2012 and forward truly were NOT seeing the Kevin Dubrow that he was all his life before. Their view of who he was as a person is somewhat messed up (in my opinion) as they saw him at his worst.

5. Yes, he had some personal failings such as believing himself to be larger than life. He did seem to truly want to help people. I feel that when I started to fall ill and kept himself more and more away from society, the entire group/community became an echo chamber of his ideas and the ideas of the members who had been there far too long.


6. I do NOT believe he had some mastermind plan. Anyone who knew him could easily see he could barely organize himself let alone have a plan. He lived in the moment, he was truly alive, and he loved his people to the extent he could. He needed someone in his life who would confront what he was doing, but he surrounded himself with mentorees, so there was no peer his age who could or would do so. Besides, he was losing his mind due to his illness, and he really couldn't hear what people were telling him. People did try. But he wouldn't stop.


7. I was NOT a social worker, so I do not know what he was telling his social workers to do. However, from the outside, I could see there was a lot of pressure on them to be more and more like him or to have him come on retreats. He would want to "mentor" their people. It didn't seem to be about the money as many of these young people weren't even paying him! He was not the type of person to leave anything behind. He just kept taking more and more with him and the entire thing was like a mish mash by the end.

8. There were clearly favorites in his group. It had always been that way and the sad part is if you were a favorite, you were destined eventually to be a disappointment to him. The more recent favorites would not really see that as they were still a favorite. He had an issue of people being either with him or totally awful, etc. I can tell you it felt very bad to go from being special to being a grand disappointment because I wasn't living some life he had planned for me, or I wasn't who he wanted me to be, or who even knows what. If only the more current favorites could experience that, maybe they would see things a little differently.


9. The group clearly fell apart after his death because there were those that needed to see him in a certain light and could not face the pain many had gone through as a result of several of his poor decisions the past few years of his life. They simply HAD to be loyal. Their past depended upon it, their businesses as social workers depended upon it, and their happy story of being heroes depended upon it. After his death, many of those people needed to move on immediately and keep doing very similar things, things that had hurt many people.


10. Finally he disclosed too much to some of his older people, treated them as confidantes when it put them in an awkward position. Midnight calls about his fears and issues resulting from poor decisions on his part were really not necessary for our growth. Telling us to reach out to past clients he was afraid would sue him or force us to see our parents if they were harassing him were NOT ethical and in fact were harmful. Had he truly cared about us, he would have directed us toward our journeys and our goals instead of trying to guilt us into staying with him. If he had made a path where we could have still had some type of relationship with him and the community but been allowed to pursue some of our own things, maybe some new ideas would have been allowed to flow into the group. But he didn't like that loss of control. He wanted to run a tight ship with himself as captain, and unfortunately he ran into some storms.

***I am gratefuly I knew him, and I am grateful I grew from the experience. I do not regret my years there, but it continues to be difficult to get over how it ended and how so many people simply had no inner resources to pull out and deal with the pain of what happened. Many people simply RAN AWAY. People who I'd knows for YEARS just left the state, sold their home, and basically refused to get together. There was an air of paranoia and distrust after his death as you had to either be on THEIR side (the people who would continue) or AGAINST them. It left no room for questioning or growth. Others clung to the sinking ship. I wish more people had some amount of depth. It really made me question how much he was helping people given how people acted in the end.


A truth I have learned: Therapy and communities do NOT go together.

[Defend the Sacred]

back in the late 90s/early 2000s. Consider  for a moment what that time was like - cell phones had just come into existence, and the Internet was a new thing (back then you couldn't exactly type "shaman" into Google and get thousands of pages worth of information).

Yes, you could. This forum was up and running as a Yahoo group, as were other groups and websites speaking out against this sort of exploitation. It's just that then, as now, white people didn't care. The nuage went mainstream in the 1970s and 80s. By the 2000s, even the Midwest was no stranger to all of this, and the world wide web was as accessible as the bookstores where people were consuming all the books about this stuff.

What Kevin Red Bear Dubrow was offering then was truly unique.

It really wasn't.

He was an excellent one-to-one social worker. I personally witnessed many people's lives positively impacted by him over the years.

Doesn't sound that way to the rest of us reading these accounts. He's been moved to Frauds for good reason.

Most people who saw him really didn't know much about any other religion than Christianity. As a Jewish man in DuPage County (largely Republican, largely Christian), he added something that most counselors could not. He brought a lot of experience to the table. He was truly a man of the 1960s. His vision for groups and communities was huge, and he attempted to enact this vision. His views at times were limited, and at times a bit old-fashioned (dare I say sexist?). He just didn't seem to understand modern life and had values that reminded me of a mixture of a 1950s workaholic man's man and a 1960s hippie. Confusing, I know.

No, not unusual or confusing at all. Totally typical for a white, nuage, pretendian exploiter. Read the forum. These guys are everywhere, and have been for a very long time.

[Jane1970]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I find it helpful. I think the hardest part for me is that I met him when I was young, and I really didn't know what was going on totally. As someone much older than myself, and as someone with more education than I had and much more life experience, I trust him. Besides, he had helped me (to a point). I do not mean that he was unique in that he was the only one doing this stuff - he was the only person I had ever met at the time who was, though. True there were Yahoo groups, but back then, I didn't even have Internet at my house. I guess I was a little bit clueless and perhaps cloistered with my own abusive upbringing. The problem is - a lot of people who saw him had abusive families. Abusive families are known for keeping their children clueless, isolated, and incompetent. A lot of us who saw him were emotionally and socially stunted due to our upbringings. So to us he was unique. Was he unique in the US? Probably not. But when you are sent to doctor after doctor, diagnosed with mental health problems (when your own family is in fact abusing you), and someone finally tells you that you are ok and can get better, you feel that person is unique. I hope I am explaining without being insulting.

Now that I am around the age he was when he started this, I shake my head. What was he thinking? I would never even consider doing what he did. I couldn't imagine it. Truthfully, you've got to have quite a bit of narcissism to think you can just become a shaman by doing some reading in the library and watching Dances with Wolves a few times. So yes, I get what you are saying - it wasn't right, it wasn't unique, it wasn't ok. I was just trying to explain how it happened, how some of us felt helped at the time, and how as young, impressionable people with traumatic upbringings, we found some semblance of spirituality in his retreats.

Now that I'm older, I can see that just being away from our families and our toxic jobs and out in nature alone would be healing. I think he took far too much credit for how healing it can be just to spend time in nature with people who want to heal, if that makes any sense.

[FreedomReclaimed]

Kevin Dubrow was no healer or shaman, and he certainly wasn’t a community leader of any kind. If anything, he was a poster child for therapy…namely what ends up happening to you if you don’t get a handle on your insecurities and childhood hang-ups. Everything he did horribly violated the therapist/client relationship in so many ways that resulted in very tragic results. This slob (he was morbidly obese with shirts constantly stained with food and cigar drippings)  and bully did so many damage to other people’s life in the guise of wanting to “help.”

Just as others have stepped forward to tell what really happened, I wanted to shine a light on Dubrow for anyone who wanted to inquire about the “Red Bear.” Like many others, I was referred to Dubrow by the therapist I was seeing with the promise of “going to the next level” and “taking my work deeper” (RED FLAG: your therapist should only begin this talk when there’s a lack of progress in treatment, not some vague promise of spiritual exploration)  Also like many others, I was afraid, lonely, and lacked an identity. I wanted a place to belong. Dubrow offered that in spades, too bad the space he was offering was in the nice little pecking order of his community.

During my time there, my most private secrets were put open on display in these weekly groups that was half people “breaking open” and half Dubrow monologuing of his half baked thoughts about life and current society. Actually, this format was the norm for his retreats, his social work education groups, and his ‘vision quests.’ No one would challenge him due to his great myth as a shaman, healer, a warrior, and 18 other grandiose titles. Upon a second look, you would see that his written work was horribly sloppy, and that his workshop material was 80% low resolution pictures from Google images, typos, and material from other authors.

He was horribly abusive. He would scream in your face during these ‘vision quests; (and groups) and use things you told him in private against you because of his “intuition.” Intuition became synonymous with Dubrow saying its right due to divine reasons and therefore you can’t question it. There are stories about his very first vision quests that involved people having to carry around heavy rocks for miles as a “burden bundle” as Dubrow would laugh at them from his car. He would cover them in dirt and garbage to “get them out of their ego.” This spirit of needing to dominate you and take you down a peg was a theme throughout his model. Funny coming from a  guy who claimed that his “heart was open” and had “so much love to give to the world.”

On that note, he had this thing where he use the fact that he was Jewish to insult and constantly poke at you. He called it “trickster” but in reality, it was a blank check to bully and diminish everyone involved. He played it off as he embodying a Jungian archetype, but in reality, he was just being an ass.  It also gave him license to say horribly racist things. If you confronted him about this, he would bemoan his long history of working with minorities and how “that simply wasn’t true” and how “HE WAS INTEGRITY.”  His definition of integrity is confusing since both of his wives were former therapy clients of his. In fact, his second wife initially started to see Dubrow for martial problems but divorced her husband and eventually started to get romantically involved with Dubrow.


His version of Christmas, called Solstice, was a nightmare. It was involved making gifts for everyone in the community, making elaborate dishes which would them be insulted by Dubrow in front of everyone, and then finally, you would expected to perform. Performances would go on for 8-12 hours (!!!!!) often ending at 3-4am with members slurring out their lines because they were so fatigued. Dubrow voiced how he hated how commercialized the holiday had become, yet his version of it was ten times worse.

His going rate for a weekly session was about $80 with an additional $30 for group (which was “optional” but really mandatory as 18+ people would call and confront you for not being in group), which was $440 per person per month for Dubrow. He was expecting this from college age people, which could have easily been a month’s rent for them. In addition, “vision quests” were about $900 a pop. Of course, you could always borrow some from the Poor Journeyer’s Fund…which was supplement by the more wealthier members of the community. As you would guess, people eventually couldn’t pay, which would prompt angry emails from Dubrow about how he has mortgage payments to make (!!!)

He was a terribly sloppy human being and therapist. His therapy (which he claimed he wasn’t as he did psychodramas and endlessly talked about your childhood issues) was pretty much: A) emotional catharsis and breaking open, B) dialoguing with the feelings C) him yelling at you and telling you what to do. If he got bored, he would make jokes and mock you. If you were in a relationship, the problem is that there wasn’t enough conflict, and of course, when this artificial conflict threatened to harm the relationship, it was Dubrow to the rescue. One time he forced a young woman to show off the scars on her wrist from a suicide attempt to the entire group.

 The reason he seemed effective to others was due to his emotional intensity and the peer pressure of the other group members. In terms of his person, he was often covered in his own fifth, was at least 400+ lbs, and had a myriad of health problems that he would never address. He seemed very good at finding others who would take care of him and would eventually treat them like his slaves. (Massive housing projects and free labor were a good way of making up for not paying him)

His sloppiness and shortsightedness had a TON of collateral damage. He got a black Labrador named Butza, whom he wanted to be “wild.” This meant not training it. This was the most violent out of control dog I ever encountered. It bit many people and was nearly put down. I remember a new member of the community, whom had suffered a childhood of physical abuse nearly get mauled by this dog. He recommended that people “just go to college’ because “no one can pay off their student loans anyways” (!!!!) He tried to play matchmaker with just about everyone in the community, and when a couple would eventually get married and have children, he decided that “children weren’t part of his model.” (The real reason is that a crying child doesn’t listen or respond to Dubrow’s bluster, meaning he wouldn’t be star of the show anymore) This created a weird divide where parents had to choose between going on retreats or staying with their children. This especially isolated the mothers who couldn’t pay for daycare AND Dubrow at the same time.

The ultimate folly was Dubrow deciding to resign himself to death by refusing to go to the hospital when he was dying of heart failure. His solution was to sit on the sofa and watch television until he expired. This is the same man who talked how the “culture” enslaved people with electronic screens and how this made people “dead inside.” He ignored the crying and pleading of the people he claimed to love so much for hours until he finally decided to go the hospital where he died shortly after. This wasn’t the first time Dubrow had drastic health problems that required a trip to the hospital, but it was the last. The fact that he marketed himself as someone who you needed to put your complete trust and faith in and then proceeded to drag everyone through this emotional rollercoaster is the sign of a horrible human being.

I could go on. The bullying, the racist jokes, the tantrums: it all stems from his childhood which was shared as a type of hero’s story with the community. He had so many insecurities and hang-ups that never got addressed, and worse of all, he tried to redeem himself by entering therapy and social work as a type of hero. In one of his rages, he would scream, “You would all be f***ked without me!” but it was him who needed us emotionally and financially. It seems like he got used to the power and feedback he received from his clients and gravitated toward a model which made him his own private Idaho. Much of the manipulation was done unconsciously (Why else would he try to squeeze money from college age kids or die alone on the sofa?) and really seemed to ramp up the more isolated he got from the world. He tried to come off as a sage on his porch, but the truth is that he was too abrasive and self absorbed to make it anywhere else. Despite all his bluster, he was just an insecure little boy deep down who probably had no idea what he was doing and was too scared to admit it.

I left shortly after he died. I tried to stick around with the community to see if people were willing to change and learn, but they weren’t. The ones that stuck around were blindly loyal to Dubrow and saw themselves as the last guards of his sacred teachings (most of which Dubrow plagiarized from Jung, Native Americans, and most of Eastern philosophies) This frightens me since they’re making the same mistakes as Dubrow: trying to extract self worth from the field of therapy rather than trying to bring something positive to it. 

This thread was a very hot topic in the community since many of the therapists who used Dubrow and Associates on their references feared that it would tarnish their reputations. I suspect this thread still is a hot topic since it has semi-regular updates. They’re most likely reading this now and are trying to guess who I am, talking about how I’m playing out “my issues,” and how delusional I am. If you are reading this, you know that Dubrow harmed many people and that his good intentions do not outweigh all the collateral damage he did to people emotionally, physically, and financially. I along with other people who were hurt are making sure that Dubrow’s legacy will not continue with these weird little communities that mislead and hurt people.

[tfenix]

I've been wondering if I should add more. The more people I communicate with and the more posts I see bring back a lot of the anger. I feel like I haven't said enough.

Red Bear was a manipulative narcissistic child. He would consistently brag to us about how much work he did on getting rid of his narcissism. That was why he could share so much truth with us. He wasn't in his ego at all, you see. One of the more surreal memories I have was sitting on his porch confused while he screamed at me that I would never meet anyone more humble than him.

Others have talked about the routine..you would have your private session with him, then the small group sessions, then the 4 big retreats, as well as the constant gatherings. He would say you can have a life outside the group but there was never time for it. You were also ridiculed if you did. I remember one of his favorite elders was considering visiting their family for a holiday. Dubrow brought this up at one of the big gatherings just so we could all ridicule them until they agreed they wouldn't go.

Small groups were insane. People would be encouraged to confront others. Sounds fine...but you were rewarded with Dubrows favor for confrontations. You were mocked if you didn't bring things up. So you had people who would make up these ridiculous conflicts just for his delight (which would fail, and he would make fun of them) or you had people who would hold onto whatever grievance they had just so they could bring it up in group. It was such a toxic environment. People would be talking, and they would constantly be looking at Dubrow, consistently seeking his approval, any gesture that would validate them.

I am grateful I had a few great friends outside the cult to help me stay grounded. I don't think there was a moment I felt comfortable with that group, but I would look around and see these intelligent and successful people. I figured they had something I was missing. It took me a long time to finally bail.

On that...I was ready to leave once. I made the mistake of telling one hiss favorites. He had established that to leave,you terminate wit him, then your small group. I walked into a small group (I hadn't terminated with him yet) and it was like being in a firing squad. He started by bringing up how I was leaving and proceeded to have everyone attack me for every weakness I shared with them. It concluded with Dubrow screaming that I should be on my knees kissing his feet.

I realize this makes it very obvious who I am to those who were a part of the community. I'm ok with that. I'm not going to go shouting my experiences from the rooftops, but I'm not going to keep this part of.my life a secret.

There were 2 final straws for me leaving. And I'm glad I wasn't there at the end.

1) On a retreat. Dubrow is hammering into the husband of one of the married couples, one of his favorite elders whose wife is pregnant. He keeps telling him he may have to leave her for his journey. Well, we get back, and I hear from one of the community members he's said he's going to leave her. Like its a big deal. Dubrow turns around and tells him he cant, they have a child on the way. So he destroys a marriage and saves it just to look like a good guy.

2) Womens night. Dubrow, in his infinite wisdom, decided he would teach all of us about women. A huge, unhealthy, slob of a man would teach us about women. It was the joke that it sounds like it would be. He had written a poem. He was a master poet, as he would often remind us. So someone read it. We all have our obligatory ah. Discussed it. Told him how great it was. He went ballistic. Why? We didn't cry. And it couldn't be that his poem was crap. It was that we weren't open to receiving its brilliance. And that's still not the end. The next small group, I was expecting one of the women to say something about his arrogance. Something about how awful he was for presuming to know more about women in the community. Instead...He was told he truly understands women. He was made an honorary woman. With a much more vulgar term.

See, the whole group was designed to prop Dubrow up. Someone said he wasn't organized enough to be a masterming. He didn't have to be. He just had to have one of his lackeys do it.

Final thing. When I left, I was flooded with phone calls. I found out it was on his order. I was left a barrage of messages I listened to with friends. I even recorded some. Including one phone call with a particularly pushy individual who insulted me for a while nd then got crazier and crazier. I've come to believe that's because me leaving meant that they had to question themselves. Which is why deserters had to be exiled so thoroughly. Whenever I thought I made a mistake leaving, I would listen to those messages. Made me 100% sure I was right.

If there are those who still defend him, I either pity you for being a victim, or despise you for being an accomplice.

[JonnyRumble]

Lots of feelings about all of this, but mostly I am just embarrassed that I treated people a particular way under his tutelage. Reading about "favorite" mentorees and not-- how it felt to not be. It's all so sad.

I certainly grew a lot while in the group, but I am constantly undoing a lot of the unhealthy in my own life and therapy at this point.

[thetruth]

I just want to thank everyone for their replies over the years and for sharing their stories. When I initially reached out to this site and had this thread started I felt like no one else would ever leave & that no one would really listen or would know how awful it was. Glad not to be alone in this.

To address Jane1970 above- I joined before 2012 and the group was still traumatic and harmful. No one should control people like that.

[Jane1970]

Thank you, The Truth. I understand. It was challenging to figure it all out, as I was there so long. I did have some great experiences, but they were very colored by things that happened at the end. It is very, very difficult to feel completely betrayed by people you felt were your friends, people you trusted with your life. I don't know that I'll ever truly be "over it." I spent over a decade with these people - most of my adult life, in fact.

It's always challenging to understand the past and what happened, but the best I can put together is that I was growing back then because whatever his issues were, they weren't in my way. I loved a lot of the people I met - a lot of them really were trying to grow. Eventually, my growth was greatly impinged by his needs. I do remember when he started adding all these new people, making groups bigger, etc., everything getting much more intense. Obviously each person will have his or her own experience, but that doesn't excuse his behavior. No one should have been treated abusively. It functioned much like a family in that way where one person would be treated abusively and others really well, so that then no one would believe the person speaking up.

I also deeply feel that because I was raised in a family where I was made to feel responsible for the behavior and emotions of my parents, I was parentified, and I was also sexually abused (not just physically, but also told on a regular basis that "ghosts would rape me" at night when I was only nine and ten years old) and physically abused (where on a weekly basis I was force fed until I would get sick; my sibling was as well - one time he vomitted on his plate, the plate was cleaned, and he was forced to keep eating). My mother constantly overshared with me all her romantic, sexual, and emotional problems. I grew up in a family where things like sexual abuse and drug abuse were ignored or minimized. I was used to people having power over me. It wasn't unfamiliar to me at all, in fact. I had the type of family who put me down, refused to help me with college until I was suicidal over not being able to go to a 4 year college, guilted me over everything I needed (like glasses or braces), and basically pretended I was an adult because they didn't want to parent me. When I was in my early 20s, paying for my own college, I even lent my family my money. Then again in grad school, my mother called begging for me to put a bunch of her debt on my credit so she could get a huge house she wanted. My pain, what I was going through DIDN'T MATTER AT ALL for honestly most of my life. When I would stand up for myself, then my mother would say how much she loved me and talk over and over about my "baby" years. I was very used to emotional manipulation.  I also paid for my own therapy because my mother told me she was "done" with me and it was "her time now." I was only a junior in college, paying for 100% of my bills and my college while working and paying for therapy to recover from abuse from HER ex-husband. She didn't consider that to be her responsibility at all, even though I was suicidal. So consider where I came from.


So my opinion of him is tainted by the fact that I had a poor excuse for a family to begin with. He seemed to care about me, but consider where i came from. Even today, even with his controlling behavior, he was still better than my family.

But back to him... one of his needs was for me to see my abusive family because they were "bothering him." He literally called me in the middle of the night and demanded that I "deal with them" because he "didn't want to." In my opinion (and knowing how controlling my family is), they were probably threatening to sue him. I was at a vulnerable point. I had literally just had a baby and was getting very little sleep. Looking back, I probably had postpartum depression. However, he "didn't believe in postpartum depression." I had birth injuries that took me over two years to recover from as well. So when he called me at a point where i was waking 10-13 times a night with my nursing child, I wasn't able to really think straight.

HE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT. That is the bottom line. His behavior was HIS PROBLEM. NOT MINE.

When I brought up this MAJOR issue after his death, I was told by one young male social worker that I just "should have left." He then proceeded to defend the "great Red Bear." This was the same man who was mentioned in an earlier thread who called someone who wanted to leave like 100x. I'm sorry, but demanding that I see a family who disbelieved the fact that I was sexually abused is RIDICULOUS. Was there any thought about what this would put me through? My new family? My new baby?

 And to the person who acted as a bully and said, I "should have left," I really encourage you to rethink how you treat women and new mothers, and perhaps not see them as clients. You are clueless and possibly dangerous, especially to mothers who are struggling with issues already. Maybe someday you'll become a parent and then you'll finally see the light.

The therapists who left after he died I don't blame at all. What people don't get is that you were basically stuck with him because he enmeshed you into everything. If you left him, you left all your friends. I don't agree with the people who are saying to sue them, etc. HE was the problem, not them.  However, I highly encourage those who are still believing those of us who were misused by him were the problem to get a CLUE and stop enacting his "hero journey" of insanity onto your innocent clients.

Several of them should also know that my mother is "investigating them" and may "sue them."  I had to hire an attorney and get police involved to keep her out of my life. They 100% have RED BEAR to blame. Don't blame me! I even reached out to a few of the past members for help but they couldn't be bothered to care. I argued with him about seeing them, how I didn't want to, how I was finally DONE. He then had the nerve to tell me I had to see them, and then have a group where he had the whole group turn on me about how I was seeing them and shouldn't "see them so much." I fuck you not. I trusted him. He has really eroded my ability to trust people due to this controlling, abusive behavior.

 It was very difficult to heal from these things, and I finally was able to get away from my toxic and abusive family while seeing him. I was HAPPY away from them. But no, it was necessary for me to see them because he was being "bothered." He did not care about me or my child AT ALL. I highly suspect he shared what was going on with others in the group, none of whom stood up for me.

In the past year, I have been stalked, harassed and abused further by this family that I NEVER WANTED TO SEE AGAIN. In fact, I have had to hire a lawyer at my expensive to deal with it. So no, I'm not "grateful" for his "healing." He was 100% responsible for guilting me into seeing them,as he knew how to manipulate all my issues and tell me he "knew this is what" I had to do. Who calls their client at fucking midnight in a panic and tells them to see an abusive family? HIM.


 I was completely bashed by him when I refused to stay at his parties with my child and told him I didn't want to come to his house anymore with my baby. I brought up (as did another older member) that his untrained dog was dangerous. Instead of listening, he along with many other group members, attacked the member who brought this up. I was told that I was always "a problem" and "never happy" because I was afraid his dog would hurt a child. Around the time I had my child, I started to slowly pull away from him and the group due to their treatment of parents and children. Within a year of that conflict, the "pet" attacked two adults, both of whom needed surgery to recover. But you see, only he could have the truth. If any of us said anything he did not want to hear about HIM, all hell would break loose.

The best of all - he would go on retreats and tell the mothers he'd make them a manual of the retreat that they didn't attend. Then he'd return and scream at us that he wasn't making us anything! He would get angry and resentful that we couldn't attend his retreats. I attended ONE with my child, and then promised myself I'd never attend a retreat or quest for the rest of my life. I begged the leaders to allow me to bring a fold out mattress for me and my baby to sleep on. I was told I was a "problem" once again, made fun of, and then told to "sleep on an air mattress." I brought up the fact that air mattresses are dangerous for babies, and I was laughed at and treated like a problem. That's when I realized I needed to get away from these people as much as possible.

So before we decide that this man had all "the truth," I really think we should look at the abusive behaviors that were allowed to take place.While "no one is perfect" (this is what narcissists usually say to defend their behavior, btw), we were not allowed to address these issues during his life or even after. THAT is the real issue.

Fortunately, I am seeing an ethical therapist who has helped me recover, and I have a great lawyer to fight off my "family."

To those of you who called yourselves my friends, no you weren't. None of you stood up for the issues that were going on, and instead many of you stood up for him even after he died, sidelining those of us who dealt with serious issues with his behavior.

When I tried to speak to any of them, they were "moving on" (practically immediately). For people who could delve into the issues a paper cut caused them for a decade, they were "moving on" from their MENTOR within months.

And before you judge me for my "anger," consider how you'd feel if someone allowed your child to be hurt by known abusers for his convenience.

[thetruth]

I know that for a lot of people with really toxic families, the group was a haven and a way to have a family and community outside of your birth family. That's part of what drew me to it.

I left before the first baby was born, but have really been horrified to hear the treatment of mothers and children. And horrified to hear that Butsa attacked people (not surprised tho. that dog was a nightmare).

I consider myself very lucky that I was able to leave. The circumstances aligned for me (wasn't living with or dating a cult member), and luckily I  still had a couple of friends outside of it. Not everyone is so lucky. Having a partner or family that's part of it too makes it that much harder. It is not so simple just to leave. To leave is to lose so much, even with people outside of the group. When it's been your center for years, how are you supposed to be fine suddenly not having it?

[Ninthoctave]

Hello and I'm happy I got the chance to read all of these posts about the famous Kevin DuBrow.  I am a mother of one of his followers.  After reading her posts on what she believes happened in our family I am shocked that this is her belief.  I truly believe Kevin had brainwashed her into believing all these things happened.  The original reason she saw Kevin was because her husband had seen his father molest his sister and he was having some issues with it.  He also watched as my younger daughter, who was 12 at the time, was undressing in her room.  I'm guessing his issues were of a sexual nature.  So my daughter and her soon to be ex-husband were given Kevin's name by a therapist named Nadia.  My daughter was seeing Nadia because she was having anxiety.  Soon my daughter and her husband became members of Kevin's group.  Her husband was also controlling.  Little by little I began to see less and less of my daughter.  My oldest daughter had asked me if she could take my 12 year old with her and her husband to one of Kevin's backyard bonfires, my husband and I said ok.  Within an hour my daughter and her husband dropped my 12 year old back home.  She told us that Kevin's home was disgusting with dog urine and feces everywhere.  Kevin's daughter was dressed like a hooker, (my 12 year old's words) and she didn't feel safe so she asked her sister to take her home.  That was the first and last time she would ever visit his home.

I also just read how my daughter was raised in a family where she was made to feel responsible for the behavior and emotions of her family.  I'm not sure where this is coming from as her and I were very close until she met her husband (1st husband).  I don't know who told her 'ghosts would rape her'...that is disgusting to think someone would say that to her.  This is the first I've heard of this.  And that she was force fed until she got sick?  Her and her brother saw my ex-husband (their biological father) every Sunday.  Most of the time she didn't want to go and I would tell her father that she didn't feel well.  I was then taken to court because my ex-husband had visitation rights.  Either I let her visit him or I would be held in contempt of court and put in jail.  Then she would have to be at this home much much longer.  It wasn't until I met my 2nd husband who also adopted her and her brother that she no long would have to have anything to do with him.  She was 14 at the time of the adoption.  I know the five years she and her brother had to see their biological father were very difficult for both of them.  I've told her so many times I sorry it happened.  I didn't have a choice but to let him see them once a week on Sundays.

She refused to have anything to do with the family the whole time she was seeing Kevin.  I was told he taught them to demonize their mothers and detach from the family.  I know he took money from the member and put it through insurance.  Which is clearly fraud. 

She said I overshared my romantic, sexual and emotional problems...I never did that.  She also says that she grew up in a house that things like sexual abuse and drug abuse were ignored.  I would love to sit down with my daughter and truly discuss all these accusations.  None of these things were ever brought up to me before she started seeing Kevin. 

She said we refused to help her with college.  She got almost a full scholarship and had to pay $200.00 a month, $100.00 of it we paid.  My father had died when she started college and my mother (her grandmother) need money for her medications.  My husband was making $38,000 a year and we had  family of 5, a townhome and my mother who needed help with her medications.  My husband got my daughter a pretty good part-time job at his law office which was very close to our home.  She worked there for some time while she went to college which was also very close.  The money she said I asked her for was $2,000 out of the $25,000 she got from her paternal grandparents when she turned 21.  We needed to show it in a savings account when we purchased our home.  We gave it back to her right after we closed on the house.  We NEVER took a dime from her.  Never! 

Late in 2013 I was told by someone that my daughter was dead.  I found Kevin's email address and sent him an email demanding that he tell me where she is.  I received an email back saying he didn't know of the person I was asking about.  I sent him another email and got the same answer.  I called him one evening and he answered.  I left him a message saying I wanted to see her and that if I didn't get a call within an hour I would call the police.  She emailed me within that hour.  So her saying I called him in the middle of the night was an exaggeration. 

Her and I began emailing back and forth for a couple of weeks when she told me she just had a baby girl, my granddaughter.  I sat and cried with excitement and worry.  Slowly we started to get close and I would come and visit every Saturday with or without my husband.  We brought her coffee, salads, baby clothes, things for her and her home and her new husband, (also a member).  Things seemed to be going well except for the times when she would get upset with something I said or did.  We were never invited to any holiday parties she would have because she said we would get along with her 'group'....I respected her wishes and never asked to be included.

I know I'm not perfect, I know I made mistakes, but I loved her then and I still love her.  I have 50 or more emails from her saying the most horrible things to me.  I've cried and gotten upset with her and said things I'm sure I shouldn't have said.  I believe she has issues from seeing this man who she still til this day defends.  She said she has the police involved.  That is not true.  She says that I am having some of his followers investigated, I said I would, but I have not as of this writing.  I know Kevin took a lot of money from her and her 2nd husband who has also pulled away from his mother.  And never wanted to see his father when he was dying. 

She has not hired an attorney.  I have not seen her or my granddaughter for a year and a half.  After seeing my granddaughter and babysitting for her every week for four years she has cut me and my family out of her life.  That is a cruel thing to do to a child.  I know I will see my granddaughter again one day.  She'll ask me what happened and why I didn't see her.  I'm getting older now and I pray every day she has a change of heart. 

Kevin DuBrow has ruined a lot of lives.  I would LOVE to sit down and talk to my daughter.  I would LOVE for her to say all the things she needs to say.  I want her to know I love her. 

Nine Octaves