Apache McLean / Robert E. McLean

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I apologize if I seemed hostile to you. I was merely trying to put you in someone else shoes.
Sometimes, that helps in understanding.

Glad you will stick around and continue to learn.

[f0rumu$er]

earthw7, I understand that there is a great void in my personal knowledge and that Mr. McLean cannot defend himself here.  I just don;t think he should have to defend himself.  In actuality, he spent well over 60 years traveling and learning from Native Americans.  I wish I had followed his every move to provide more detailed information and evidence.  But as someone who was well aware of what he was doing, though not the specific details, I would think what I know about him, his character, disposition, and so on, would at least hold more sway about who he was than the things that have been said here by those who never met or knew him, and which are factually wrong.

Believe me, I more than anyone here wish a forum member was a Native American he associated with.  As you can imagine, since he was born sometime around 1930 and just passed away last month, he was very old and most of those he associated with among the Natives would also be very old and not likely to be technologically savvy in the use of computers and forums.  But I do hope that one who remembers him will show up at some point.

I will let those that disparage a great man who probably would not have even felt it worth wasting his time trying to defend himself against the accusations of those who knew nothing of him and his life work go on doing so it it makes them feel better.  The fact is, whether one wishes to admit it or not, that times were indeed different and there was not the great movement among Natives to retain their heritage and inform others like there is today.  Many of the customs, languages and traditions barely survived extinction.  The assimilation movement was still held to be the way forward by many, many ignorant and thoughtless people.

I have watched "Reel Injuns."  It seems to me to be along the lines of many things preventing understanding and harmony.  Of course there is no defense for Hollywood's use of non-Native Americans to depict them, mangling their language and so on.  But it is interesting to me that the depiction of Natives as being stoic warriors is griped about, as is the depiction of them not being great warriors.  The reality is that no one in Hollywood movies has ever been portrayed or depicted in a real way.  All cowboys were not fearless, fast with a gun, tough to the point they beat up anyone they wanted.  Not all white people are like "Jersey Shore", "Seinfeld", or "Real Housewives", or "OC", or Elmer Fudd.  People of every race could point to numerous instances of ridiculous and callous impressions presented by Hollywood.

People here have a right to question anything they want to.  But if it is only matter of looking for a reason to find fault, be negative, or see things in the worst possible light, there will always be ways to do that and prevent real progress.  I will continue sourcing the other reference materials and also made a list of the films mentioned in "Reel Injuns" so that I can watch those.  One that was mentioned was "Rabbit Proof Fence."  I saw that when it was first released and thought it one of the best films I'd ever seen. 

I am glad it was not he intention to be hostile to me.  It also was not my intention to cause problems or angst for those here.  I was just trying to shed some light on the subject from my limited knowledge.

critter, I just saw you posted while I was typing.  Thank you.

[Defend the Sacred]

earthw7, I understand that there is a great void in my personal knowledge and that Mr. McLean cannot defend himself here.  I just don;t think he should have to defend himself.  In actuality, he spent well over 60 years traveling and learning from Native Americans.

The reason some of us have a hard time believing that is he does not seem to have known what he was doing. He seems to have collected some objects, but he obviously did not understand proper cultural context and behaviour. Or worse, if he did learn what was proper, he chose to behave offensively. Either way, it's not good. On this forum, your words are being read by people from the tribes he misrepresented and, yes, exploited. We don't need to have met him in person. We can see from what he did and said that he got it wrong, and has created problems for Native people as well as for people like you who have been misled by him.

I will let those that disparage a great man who probably would not have even felt it worth wasting his time trying to defend himself against the accusations of those who knew nothing of him and his life work go on doing so it it makes them feel better.  The fact is, whether one wishes to admit it or not, that times were indeed different and there was not the great movement among Natives to retain their heritage and inform others like there is today. 

As others have already told you, you are continuing to insist on clinging to misinformation. You are continuing to call a man "great" for harming Native cultures.  People are being kind to you, but I see you being insulting with responses like that.

There are cultural differences at work here. You think you know about cultures you simply don't know about, and when people have tried to educate you, you keep insisting you know better. I find this sad.

[Superdog]

There are cultural differences at work here. You think you know about cultures you simply don't know about, and when people have tried to educate you, you keep insisting you know better. I find this sad.

My feelings as well.

Superdog

[f0rumu$er]

Well, you all seem to know a lot about what he did from reading one newspaper article.  Apparently the reporter wasn't knowledgeable about all of the appropriate etiquette just like some of the rest of us.  Oh yeah, and seeing one video with some dumb kid in it who doesn't even know it is illegal to own eagle feathers unless one is a Native with the right to based on their spiritual beliefs.  That kid is by no means a reliable source!  Mr. McLean did a hell of a lot more than collect a few objects!  I told you, he devoted his life to Native Americans, participating in their culture, and sharing it with others.  For anyone here to say that he misrepresented tribes, exploited them, created problems for Native Americans, misled or misinformed people when they don't even know specifically what he did is absurd and a person who is misleading others!  Just because I don't remember every detail perfectly from every moment of my childhood, does not mean that he misinformed me.   He didn't exploit anyone!!!  I don't think I know a lot about Native culture.  In fact I thought I might learn here.  But apparently, your idea of learning is for me to agree with you on everything, and if I don't, ridicule me.  And of course, when I do, still find something to fault in what I say or how I say it.  I am very offended by the self righteous, arrogant, and condescending tone on this forum. People who make judgments with no information are not trustworthy.  At least I knew the man and in a general way, what he was doing.  He spent his life doing good things for Native Americans and the gratitude he gets is the despicable display I've seen here?  No thank you.  People here don't even have the common courtesy to just inform someone who doesn't know, in a civil manner, that the outfits that are worn during Native dances and ceremonies are properly referred to as regalia.  Instead, it is somehow thought appropriate to be snide and insulting instead.  I will take my thirst for knowledge elsewhere.  If you folks are so well connected, why don't you make some contacts throughout the Southwest and find out the truth about what he did.  He was well loved among many Natives of his generation.  Au voir.  Won't be visiting this site again, nor will anyone I tell about it.  I have the sense this web site is the home of plastic shamans!

[Laurel]

f0rumu$er,

You're saying "I don't know much, but I sure know more about your culture than you do, because I learned it from this authority you don't recognize! Can't you see how right I am and how blind you all are?!"

Can't you see how hurtful and counterproductive that is? Can you not admit that perhaps the "experts" are right and you are wrong? I guess not. It's easier to double down on your defensiveness and get all -passive aggressive than it is to learn something you didn't want to know, isn't it? You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in being right about this person, because you can't or won't listen to reason about him.

As for Reel Injun, a positive stereotype remains a stereotype, and most movies are still written, financed and made, not by a mysterious entity called Hollywood, but by white people. White people are free to mock ourselves (a la Elmer Fudd), as is every other race. White people, having most of the power in this society, are not free to mock or pose as those who have less power than they have unless they want to be considered racists.

And things that point out this racism do not "prevent...understanding and harmony," they make it possible.  As long as we all look the other way and pretend redface is cool and fake shamans are awesome because they make some people feel awesome, there will be no change...not change for the better, anyway. But you...when racism is pointed out to you, you holler "YOU'RE the racist!" When people use their precious time writing posts to try and teach you, you yell "No, YOU'RE the plastic shaman!" You are a very poor advertisement for the "good influence" of Mr. McLean.

People really have been remarkably delicate with you. I don't know what purpose anyone thinks that serves, so I'll come out and say you're behaving like the spoiled rotten offspring of a jackass here. This forum doesn't exist to hold your hand, justify your beliefs, or soothe your ego.

[Superdog]

   He didn't exploit anyone!!!

That's your opinion.  My opinion is, it's debatable.

This a blog posting of a 1994 ten day trip called the Marlboro Adventure (a trek across the wild west..mostly foreigners)
http://chingnengbin.blogspot.com/2008/12/1994-marlboro-adventure-team-usa.html

If you scroll down you'll find several pictures of Robert in different sets of regalia, performing dances for the participants at one of the cabins they stayed at....basically dinner theater.  He also posed with the participants and even lent one of his headresses so one of the participants could have his picture taken while wearing it.

When he was illustrating books and producing VHS tapes, the tapes include the mention of Mclean Enterprises.

One of your defenses of him was that this was a very private pursuit...I just don't see it.  My guess is this personal connection is much more personal than you relate.  That's how you come off.  The end result of your defense of him IMHO has actually made him look worse.  The venom in your posts contributes to that.

I have no reason to thank Robert.  He has done nothing for my tribe and his legacy proves troublesome.  The lore overshadows the facts...(another example: an auction listing for one Mclean's necklaces, description reads "old squash blossom necklace purchased from famous indian dancer Apache McLean" http://www.liveauctionworld.com/old-squash-blossom-necklace-purchased-from-famous_i8920881)  I have nothing to be ungrateful for.

Was he a fraud?  I don't believe that, but he did lead people to believe the wrong things about him.  Was he a real help to Natives?  In some ways....but in other ways damaging.  Unfortunately, it's the damaging parts that continue to live on in the attitudes of UU fans who misrepresent what he was all about....I don't understand why you give a pass to those that use his name to justify their drunken behaviors.  For some reason we're the problem for wanting to talk about it....interesting....but not something I haven't seen before.  Good luck forumuser....I hope you can calm yourself enough to realize that sometimes hearing what we don't want to hear is sometimes what we need to hear.

Superdog

[milehighsalute]

ok.....apache twinkie name.....store named after kiva....totems in front yard......i bet he had a dreamcatcher too........anyways thats "generic pan indian" and not tribe specific and as a pueblo anyone calling their store "kiva" enrages me

i dont think you get it bro......we look at twinkies the same way a black man looks at a wigger.....no matter how muh "good" you do it's still never respectful and it misrepresents us