Author Topic: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians  (Read 101253 times)

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2011, 11:27:55 am »


I waited and waited for someone to comment and finally one of you did. As to the Mowa Choctaw Apache connection, the Mowas
were approached by the descendants of those POW Chiracahua Apaches to be part of an ICC claim in the past. Now why do you
think these particular Apaches would do this? Maybe it was because they considered them relatives. These people were mislabled
as Cajans to deny their existence. I grew up in Moss Bluff LA, in the area of the Attakapas, Redbones, and Coushattas. I was taught
Cajun French in 2nd Grade there and I can still speak some French 33 years later. That area was French Acadian. The Mobile area
was not. The amount of racial mixing in Spanish West Florida as it was known for some time was like Brazil. The Indian agent for
that area named Gaines recorded the names of Choctaw people then whose descendants are Mowas now. He moved to the area
where my ancestors lived 200 years ago in Greene and Perry County, MS. While you all are on your integrity hunt what do you
think of the Talimali Band of Apalachees who came out of hiding from racism in LA a decade ago after being basically invisible
since the late 18th century? What about the Choctaw-Lipan Apache-Nahautl community at Ebarb, LA, or the Clifton Choctaw
Community? Have you ever read the Indians of Louisiana Book by Fred Kniffen and two other professors at the Natchitoches, LA
state college?  I still remember meeting Professor Deloria at Haskell about eight years ago and having him sign They say the
Wind is Red. He told me to tell the Mowa Chief to not give up no matter what. I wonder if the what he was mentioning had anything
to do with the kind of character attacks I've seen here?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 03:09:49 pm »

As to the Mowa Choctaw Apache connection, the Mowas were approached by the descendants of those POW Chiracahua Apaches to be part of an ICC claim in the past. Now why do you think these particular Apaches would do this? Maybe it was because they considered them relatives....


I'd really like to see proof of this. The Chiricahuas in the Mt Vernon barracks were so heavily guarded and had so much press surrounding them...It'd be about as likely as OJ Simpson getting a woman pregnant while he was awaiting trial (the first trial, for murder) for this to happen and no one notice.

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 09:03:23 pm »
I deal with nahollo historians constantly who completely dismiss oral tradition from tribal people. it's ridiculous when indigenous historians
act like nahollos concerning oral tradition. I've spent fifteen years on my own ancestry in spite of the MCR designation on the Dawes Rolls.
When my grandfather mentioned the ancestry there was no internet. There were universities and libraries with microfilm. I found the
names of relatives of my ancestors who did apply unsuccessfully for Dawes. After the initial denial and the long trek to Indian Terr.
the rest of the family basically forgot about the enrollment process and my great-grandmothers people didn't bother to apply. I have
my relatives on there but not my great-grandmother directly. I have a 64 year old picture of my late mother and great-grandmother
in Richton. MS. That's it. I lived in the deep South in the 1970's as a child. I wrote in my book Hina Falaya about my father's experience in being
warned in a racist manner to avoid the Redbones north of Moss Bluff, LA back then. People had no access to censuses, legal rights,
nothing. As far as proof, why don't you quit talking down on the Mowas here and contact them yourself. They have a 300 acre rez
north of Mobile, AL. I've been there....have you? They have a cultural center there. They have friends in the Miss Choctaw communities
now that Philip Martin isn't lobbying against them or anyone else for that matter. I have Kansas Kickapoo co-workers at my job
who talk of their people being one of the 34 members of federally recognized communities who live on the Mowa Rez married to Mowa
tribal members. Are those people as unknowingly indicting as you all are on here. Talk goes on without direct contact or conversation.
Do research if you're educated. One of my other pursuits has been getting the Kansas Munsee Tribe restored to federal recognition since 2004.

You all talk about the fake Colorado Munsees on here. Fake they are. I've been to Moraviantown and Munseytown. I work with a 87 year old
Munsee woman who attended boarding schools here. I've found all kinds of BIA info on these people. However the BIA isn't the all it's cracked up to be. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming. I personally don't trust the objectivity of the BIA. You must be sooo blindly trusting of their records .
I'm in Kansas. E-mail Professor Matte. I have.

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 05:01:26 am »
I found a picture earlier of Miss Indian Alabama 2008 who was a Mowa Choctaw tribal member at the Mowa Pow-Wow with Geronimo's
great-grandson in the picture with her. Gee, I wonder why this would occur...this is what frauds do right?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 01:42:14 pm »
I deal with nahollo historians constantly who completely dismiss oral tradition from tribal people. it's ridiculous when indigenous historians
act like nahollos concerning oral tradition. I've spent fifteen years on my own ancestry in spite of the MCR designation on the Dawes Rolls.
When my grandfather mentioned the ancestry there was no internet. There were universities and libraries with microfilm. I found the
names of relatives of my ancestors who did apply unsuccessfully for Dawes. After the initial denial and the long trek to Indian Terr.
the rest of the family basically forgot about the enrollment process and my great-grandmothers people didn't bother to apply. I have
my relatives on there but not my great-grandmother directly. I have a 64 year old picture of my late mother and great-grandmother
in Richton. MS. That's it. I lived in the deep South in the 1970's as a child. I wrote in my book Hina Falaya about my father's experience in being
warned in a racist manner to avoid the Redbones north of Moss Bluff, LA back then. People had no access to censuses, legal rights,
nothing. As far as proof, why don't you quit talking down on the Mowas here and contact them yourself. They have a 300 acre rez
north of Mobile, AL. I've been there....have you? They have a cultural center there. They have friends in the Miss Choctaw communities
now that Philip Martin isn't lobbying against them or anyone else for that matter. I have Kansas Kickapoo co-workers at my job
who talk of their people being one of the 34 members of federally recognized communities who live on the Mowa Rez married to Mowa
tribal members. Are those people as unknowingly indicting as you all are on here. Talk goes on without direct contact or conversation.
Do research if you're educated. One of my other pursuits has been getting the Kansas Munsee Tribe restored to federal recognition since 2004.

You all talk about the fake Colorado Munsees on here. Fake they are. I've been to Moraviantown and Munseytown. I work with a 87 year old
Munsee woman who attended boarding schools here. I've found all kinds of BIA info on these people. However the BIA isn't the all it's cracked up to be. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming. I personally don't trust the objectivity of the BIA. You must be sooo blindly trusting of their records .
I'm in Kansas. E-mail Professor Matte. I have.

IOW, you want us to take their word for it, and you're too lazy to post any proof, preferring to go off on rants.

Some of your other points:
No, they don't have a reservation. They have land. Until they're recognized and the land is legally protected, it's not a rez.
I grew up in the south in the 70s too. Big deal.
And who you claim some of the Mowa have married doesn't prove a thing. Same with your later post. Who a powwow princess has a photo taken with doesn't prove anything.
You really need to do better than imagining a conspiracy between the BIA, Martin, DNA testing, white historians, and who knows who else. It doesn't help the Mowa, your case, or you.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2011, 11:59:41 pm »
tuschkahouma said
Quote
These people were mislabeled as Cajans to deny their existence.

As I mentioned before, and according to the BIA document, the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians weren’t denied Federal Recognition on the basis of one single issue such as racial classifications on censuses, but their denial was based on many different factors.  But as far as the term “Cajan” goes, there is no evidence that the MOWA’s ancestors were really Indians, but were labeled as “Cajan” “to deny their existence” as you say. Also, there were a few Authentic Mississippi Choctaws in that area at the time, and they were all classified as “Indians”.  

Here is what was found on the term “Cajan” on p 21 of the BIA document.
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/documents/text/idc-001636.pdf


Quote
Development and Usage of the Term "Cajan.

The term "Cajan" as used to describe the petitioner's ancestors seems to have been an artificial one, developed in the second half of the nineteenth century to distinguish them both from the Catholic Creoles of color in Mobile and Baldwin Counties, Alabama, and from the population of emancipated slaves (Green 1941, 8 ) .  No contemporary documentation was presented to indicate the term’s earliest use.  According to oral tradition, Alabama State Senator, L.W. McRae assigned the name: to the group, who were among his constituents, about 1885 (Green 1941, 8; Price 1951, 55). This would be approximately the date of the first miscegenation case affecting the Reed family.  The similarity of "Cajan" to the Louisiana usage of "Cajun" has upon occasion resulted in the assumption that this group was of Acadian ancestry (cf. Alabama School Journal, April 1931 in MOWA Pet. 1988, EX.). In 1934, local tradition, as reported to writer Carl Carmer, was that Daniel Reed, "had big family 0’ sons and daughters an' they all looked white and' they' all married white. Reckon one of 'em married French an' that was where the name Cajan comes from" (Carmer 1934, 259).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:08:21 am by BlackWolf »

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 02:07:37 am »
I'm not ranting. We're just at a point where you don't want to admit otherwise. Does Vine Deloria vouching for them mean anything?
I met him twice before he passed away through Professor Dan Wildcat. I asked him to sign They Say The Wind is Red. He told me it was a
sham how the Mowas were being treated and he explained this in his forward writing in that book. Just like what Eric Plecker did
with the Monacans, Mattiponis, Nansemonds, Chickahominies, and Rhappahannocks in VA, these people were erased on paper by omission
in the past. I had a 30 minute arguement with a Tom Coburn staffer after that senator blocked their recognition bill because of what Mr.
Plecker did in the office of racial purity in Virginia until the 1950's. Don't call the Mowas fakes when people called them Cajans to derail
their real identities. Refuting your assertions isn't ranting.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 03:17:08 pm »
I'm not ranting. We're just at a point where you don't want to admit otherwise. Does Vine Deloria vouching for them mean anything?
I met him twice before he passed away through Professor Dan Wildcat. I asked him to sign They Say The Wind is Red. He told me it was a
sham how the Mowas were being treated and he explained this in his forward writing in that book. Just like what Eric Plecker did
with the Monacans, Mattiponis, Nansemonds, Chickahominies, and Rhappahannocks in VA, these people were erased on paper by omission
in the past. I had a 30 minute arguement with a Tom Coburn staffer after that senator blocked their recognition bill because of what Mr.
Plecker did in the office of racial purity in Virginia until the 1950's. Don't call the Mowas fakes when people called them Cajans to derail
their real identities. Refuting your assertions isn't ranting.

But you haven't refuted anyone's assertions. You don't even answer almost all of them. "You don't want to admit otherwise" is what applies to you, not me, not Blackwolf. We can only go by what proof we see, and you keep refusing to provide that, and just ignore the evidence we keep presenting to you.

So for the third time, can you provide any actual proof of Apache descent among the Mowas? How could it be possible when the Chiricahuas were under incredibly heavy guard, with reporters watching every move, in that time's version of a media circus?

Do you have any proof of Deloria making these comments? I haven't found your book mentioned online. Is there a way to look inside your book and see the forward, the way both amazon and google routinely do?

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2011, 06:28:11 am »
Mr. Deloria made these comments to me in a classroom setting with Professor Dan Wildcat at Haskell seven years ago when I brought
the book on the Mowas and the Demaillie treaty book set that Professor Deloria also worked on. I also had a one hour listening session
as Professors Donald Fixico, Dan Wildcat, and Vine Deloria, Jr. spoke at a table in the Holidome Lounge in Lawrence, KS after a conference
I attended. Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?   Professor Deloria wrote the forward for that book as I previously stated.
My book is being edited currently. I have it on PDF form currently. All 75,396 words of it. I also found a story on the PBS We Shall
Remain website dealing with the Calcedeaver Choctaw School and the language revitalization program. So far, I've referenced the
late Vine Deloria, Jr, and PBS. You would think that these people and entities would want to distance themselves from frauds.
After all, Mr. Deloria didn't mince words about new agers and frauds, did he?  PBS dealt with the Nipmuc Community in Massachusetts
concerning a segment on Metacomet and the Wampanoags. Both of these entities have high standards. The Mowas and other
state tribes are so fake that Mr. Deloria and PBS don't want to deal with them right?  There is no sarcasm here...not at all.

Offline tk

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2011, 02:48:16 pm »
Minor point:

... the Demaillie treaty book set that Professor Deloria also worked on.

The "treaty book" was actually Vine's idea (my paychecks for archival research were signed by Vine); Ray Demallie's role was to shepherd it to final production.

tk

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2011, 02:04:53 am »
my apologies. Professor Deloria was a force of nature in his lifetime. Lawyer, bookwriter, ordained minister, professor, were titles he wore
in his more than seventy years of life on this earth. I was speechless as I listened to those professors speak. I greatly appreciate the
work on those treaty books. I found an 1868 rejected Munsee treaty in those books. I was looking for the 1864 Munsee treaty where
the US Government and Kansas were trying to get the Munsees and Chippewas to citizenize. It was rejected also. I used those books
and the Kappler online OSU treaty database to research all of the promises of education made in return for the cessions of land as
part of the Civilization Act of March 3, 1819 to prove that the Haskell campus and wetlands were paid for with indian monies from
land cessions when I began fighting the South Lawrence Trafficway a decade ago. I found as many as 75 treaties with education
promised in return for land cessions between 1820 and 1880. I'm a researcher out of necessity for the Munsee or Christian Tribe
of Indians in Kansas in their pursuit to be restored to federal recognition by a congress in the future. The Dumblicans now make it
impossible for such endeavors. I've drawn up IRA Constitutions for them, found tribal rolls in Topeka, Tulsa, and OKC for them
and researched how ARTICLE 6 of the Dawes Allotment Act was used to citizenize and dissolve their federal recognition between
1897 and 1900. I've started learning the Munsee language with the CD set from the Stockbridges and the O' Meara dicitionary
of Munsee Delaware that I purchased for less the $75 and the book is now out of print and going for almost $700. I wear like
four or five hats in this endeavor and have been involved since May 2004 with them. Thet now have two pro-bono legal accounts
to assist them with this endeavor. I've talked to R. Lee Fleming about the Mowa Choctaws and Munsees in the pasr. Again, Sorry
for the mistake.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2011, 02:19:00 pm »
Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?   Professor Deloria wrote the forward for that book as I previously stated.
My book is being edited currently. I have it on PDF form currently. All 75,396 words of it. I also found a story on the PBS We Shall
Remain website dealing with the Calcedeaver Choctaw School and the language revitalization program.

Now this is much more like it, very credible and strong evidence, exactly what we kept asking you for.
http://www.amazon.com/They-Say-Wind-Red-Choctaw-Lost/dp/1588380793/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1296396329&sr=8-1

It does seem the author has a very strong case, judging by the reception it's gotten.

I went to H-Net, academic listservs. Found this endorsement of their case by Deloria.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-amindian&month=0212&week=a&msg=yUpkgjexJ590avobgnUT6w&user=&pw=

There's also a comment by a Professor Morris Simon on the Mowa and Cajans. According to the evidence gathered by a grad student of his, the Cajans were mixed Black and white who later joined the Mowa or identified as Natives.
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-south&month=9912&week=b&msg=dezJ4fQ6//3YoZYAiQgepw&user=&pw=

That seems like a credible explanation of what DNA evidence found.

I still haven't seen any credible evidence or explanation for the claims of Apache ancestry.
ETA: Simon's memory of what happened to the Apache at Mt. Vernon is off quite a bit.

Offline tuschkahouma

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2011, 04:49:50 pm »
I mentioned They say the Wind is Red at least four times in my postings. Did you not realize this was a written book by a researcher
Jacquiline Matte that was part of their submission to the BIA in the late 1990's?  You all have been going off of a BIA determination
that was a by product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth, which it is not. Chief Taylor went
to D.C. and picked up boxes of documentation the Mowas sent that were never opened, researched or dealt with. The BIA ignored
loads of documentation that refuted the garbage you all have spoken of the Mowas on here and yet you all were the water carriers
for the BIA as they were influenced by Chief Martin, Jack Abramov and those GOP scoundrels of the late 1990's. Both the Mowas
and the Poarch Creeks signed up on the Cherokee rolls in the late 19th and early 20th centuries because all they heard was the word
tribal roll. No one had cared about either tribes for a century at that time. If you're using that MOWA racial documentation article from Wikipedia
that article is total garbage. Reciting it and the subsequent lies that were born of it and repeated doesn't make me think much of your
scholarship. The people around Mt. Vernon and Citronelle are browner than their neighbors. That's why people were suspicious of them
in the first place in the racist south. They look the part and can't run away from it.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2011, 04:10:27 am »
tuschkahouma said
Quote
Have you read They Say The Wind is Red?

Can you give us some examples from the book that make the case for the MOWAs?

tuschkahouma said

Quote
You all have been going off of a BIA determination that was a by  product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth,which it is not.

What exactly don’t you agree with in the Proposed Findings Against Acknowledgment of the MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians?  Can you give some specific examples of what you don’t agree with and why, backed up by evidence?

Offline educatedindian

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Re: MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2011, 01:40:50 pm »
I mentioned They say the Wind is Red at least four times in my postings. Did you not realize this was a written book by a researcher
Jacquiline Matte that was part of their submission to the BIA in the late 1990's?  You all have been going off of a BIA determination
that was a by product of pure laziness on the BIA's part and yet you all recited it like it was the truth, which it is not. Chief Taylor went
to D.C. and picked up boxes of documentation the Mowas sent that were never opened, researched or dealt with. The BIA ignored
loads of documentation that refuted the garbage you all have spoken of the Mowas on here and yet you all were the water carriers
for the BIA as they were influenced by Chief Martin, Jack Abramov and those GOP scoundrels of the late 1990's. Both the Mowas
and the Poarch Creeks signed up on the Cherokee rolls in the late 19th and early 20th centuries because all they heard was the word
tribal roll. No one had cared about either tribes for a century at that time. If you're using that MOWA racial documentation article from Wikipedia
that article is total garbage. Reciting it and the subsequent lies that were born of it and repeated doesn't make me think much of your
scholarship. The people around Mt. Vernon and Citronelle are browner than their neighbors. That's why people were suspicious of them
in the first place in the racist south. They look the part and can't run away from it.

You mentioned that you asked Deloria to sign the book twice, and once you said we had not read the book, but didn't mention its contents. Since all of those comments were buried in much that was either unproven or irrelevant, it's not surprising I overlooked it.
The BIA is guilty of a lot of things, but the Acknowledgement branch is hardly lazy. They're swamped by applications of dozens of often dubious groups. And again, we go by any evidence we see, or don't see. The best example of the last is that you are still dodging the question of how anyone from the outside could have conceived kids in heavily guarded Mt Vernon barracks. Isuppose I'll resign myself to not getting an answer from you on that.