Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 115980 times)

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1423
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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #225 on: December 17, 2009, 10:05:49 pm »
I had to open two post so I could repy to Rattle :o

No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.



I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted.

If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.


 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

that is culture.

How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them?

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??


who are you talking about? the cherokee?

Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

Are there no Christians amongst your people??

there are those who follow the desert cult

You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

this statement about what make a person is their culture, lifeways and their enivronment,
as my people would say we are just trying to be human beings and it is hard to do that

To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.

A tribal people are held together by their culture, lifeways, stories, land, spirituality, and family
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 10:07:23 pm by earthw7 »
In Spirit

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #226 on: December 20, 2009, 08:19:20 am »
About people's with lost culture, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

When I sweated, it was with the Menominee, I remember they told me that so much of their culture was lost, that they had to borrow from the Lakota. 

True, I don't know how much of their culture was lost, nor do I know how much of what they were doing was Lakota. 

I only know I was told by them, that much of their culture was lost, and they borrowed from Lakota.

So.. does that make them not a recognized tribe then?  I don't think so.  So, with that, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #227 on: January 01, 2010, 06:47:46 pm »
It strikes me that the later US federal government recognized tribes when they needed somebody to "buy" the land from. That formed the first basis of he "recognition" process.

In Mexico the situation was much different, as the conquistadors simply killed the tribal/city leaders, and took their place. The Catholic clergy eliminated the culture, but the local people were pretty fed up with the abuses of the local rulers, and the clergy did provide some protection against the abuses of the conquistadors.

I can't speak to the history of the conquest in Canada, as I do not know it in detail. But Les Francais generally intermarried, and had no problem in doing so, to my knowledge. Culturally, I think the Meti visitor here pretty well summed it up, and I have nothing to add, as I have no knowledge of the methods of conquest used by Les Anglais.

As critter's comments on the devastation of the Menominee culture applies to other peoples as well, rattlebone raises some good questions.








Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #228 on: January 03, 2010, 06:52:02 pm »
I had to open two post so I could repy to Rattle :o

No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.



I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted.

If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.


 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

that is culture.

How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them?

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??


who are you talking about? the cherokee?

Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

Are there no Christians amongst your people??

there are those who follow the desert cult

You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

this statement about what make a person is their culture, lifeways and their enivronment,
as my people would say we are just trying to be human beings and it is hard to do that

To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.

A tribal people are held together by their culture, lifeways, stories, land, spirituality, and family


Quote
I guess i am lost how would this hurt my people? To make the culture important we teach culture/language and our lives everyday were on the reservation and we live it.
I truly believe that one need their culture to stay intacted

 You can not possibly say that this is true of every single person on your rez, and that it will continue unchanged for future generations.

 I do hope that your tribe and every tribe today can manage to preserve their culture and ways long into the future after all of us here are gone.

 However as I pointed out earlier, the recognition process has nothing to do with culture and it should not. The United States government like other European governments once present here, has taken huge steps all the way up to very recent times to eradicate native people and their culture. In many cases they were very successful in the eradication of not just an entire culture, but the people themselves.

 That in mind, making culture one of the requirements for recognition would be wrong considering the US government is the one responsible for the eradication of culture.

 Furthermore if you wish to have your nation and other tribal nations viewed as  nations, and not simply some domestic dependent, then perhaps you should really sit down and think about how tribes that can legitimately trace their ancestry and relationship with United States back to historic times have the right to be Nations regardless of culture loss or their BQ as a whole. No nation on this planet has an existence based on the amount of culture going back to ancient times, or if everyone has the exact same ethnic make up.

 The concept of a nations state and ethnic group all nicely fitted together within one border is almost what you are talking about here, and that is very European in concept. It is the same sort of idea that those who push such ideas have used to commit genocide on your own people.

 So in turn, regardless of the Peqout people and their lack of original culture and their lower bQ, as a nation that has existed going back since time immemorial, they have the same right to exist as a nation as your people do.

Quote
I explained our history already, there are the Warm Spring, Red Lake and us.

 Pointing out that your tribe and it's history is different from mine or any other tribal nation might be true, but that does not change the fact that your current tribal government and it's constitution is not the traditional government your people once went by. The current tribal government of your people, like every other tribal government in the United States is more like the United States Government, and had to be approved by the BIA and US government in general before it was allowed to operate.

 
Quote
that is culture.

 proving that your people have existed since time immemorial, and later had a government to government relationship with the United States as part of the recognition is not culture, but rather is proving that you have the right to exist as a distinct people and sovereign nation as you always have since the dawn of man.  This of course would mean that most likely you had your own distinct culture, but this proving a political existence as in regards to the recognition process is not and should not be proving culture.

Quote
who are you talking about? the cherokee? 

No, I thought we had started talking about the Pequot here. Of course some ignorant people will say that the Cherokee are not a real nation anymore, or that a great deal of their people are not really "Indian" anymore. In that regards, a lot of this here conversation between us would then be applicable as well.


Quote
Even so the euro were supposly tribal but they did not have the culture we have nor do they have the beliefs we have. I don't believe there is a simlar system. Each tribal nation has their own.
again back to culture what does that have to do christian they are not tribal culture nor do I accept (christian)them as such.

 Supposedly tribal?

 Do you think those people in Europe just sprung up from the earth being exactly as they are now with their belief systems, their cites, and their governments?

  If you go back in time before the coming of the Romans, most of Europe was filled with tribal people. Have you never heard of them speak of the Germanic tribes, or the Celts? At one time they were a tribal people too, and though I am not saying their culture was the same as the ones here; they were indeed a tribal people.

 Of course their were and still are tribal people all over the world. Just because these other people are tribal does not mean their culture will be anything like yours or any other people here. Of course some tribes here in the America's have cultures as different from each other as the English are to the Chinese. Still all cultures and people here are lumped together under the words "Indian," "Native" etc, and with that we sometimes forget we are all very different too.

 It should be noted though that you could probably find similarities and differences between your people with just about any on the planet. There is nothing special about any people or culture on this planet more so then any other. Each and every people are unique and special in their own way. We all have our differences and our similarities.

Quote
there are those who follow the desert cult

 That is rather disrespectful of you, even if I am not christian  myself. Would you appreciate somebody referring to Ghost Dance as cult, or saying such things about your spiritual ways?

None the less, if your tribe had 100% of it's people convert to Christianity today; would you still believe your people should have the right to retain their sovereignty????????

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #229 on: January 17, 2010, 11:16:44 am »
About people's with lost culture, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

When I sweated, it was with the Menominee, I remember they told me that so much of their culture was lost, that they had to borrow from the Lakota. 

True, I don't know how much of their culture was lost, nor do I know how much of what they were doing was Lakota. 

I only know I was told by them, that much of their culture was lost, and they borrowed from Lakota.

So.. does that make them not a recognized tribe then?  I don't think so.  So, with that, I have to agree with Rattlebone. 

It does if your Echota,,,
They get a lot of flack for adapting/evolving  Clan-ship from maternal to geographical, due mostly to lost culture.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #230 on: January 19, 2010, 06:11:39 am »


It does if your Echota,,,



 Gross oversimplification on your part their Paul.

 The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe. I would say that it is very likely that the Pequot have very little to none of their culture left, however there is no doubt they are a real, legitimate tribal nation.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #231 on: January 19, 2010, 09:37:37 am »
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #232 on: January 19, 2010, 10:19:14 pm »
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 

So what you are saying, if you had your way; every person that claims some ggggggg grandmother or grandfather and attaches that claim to some band of a larger tribe, you think they should get tribal recognition.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #233 on: January 20, 2010, 12:21:50 am »
Well first off I know that it is hard over the internet to pick up on intention sometimes. (it was intended to be sarcastic humor)


 <The Echota can't even prove they are or ever have been a legitimate or real tribe.>

You know that's kinda like some gun fighter. every time he goes into town some piss ant kid with a gun trys to make him prove that he really is the fastest. 

So what you are saying, if you had your way; every person that claims some ggggggg grandmother or grandfather and attaches that claim to some band of a larger tribe, you think they should get tribal recognition.



Well IF I had my way,,, hummm?
The only way I would go for something as liberal as what you are trying to make me sound like would be if after that all Tribal rolls were frozen forever,,, except for new born.
But the truth is ,,,, I'm not that liberal.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #234 on: January 22, 2010, 03:04:18 pm »
That is rather disrespectful of you, even if I am not christian  myself. Would you appreciate somebody referring to Ghost Dance as cult, or saying such things about your spiritual ways?


Sorry been away... I do have to explain that the ghost dance was a cult it was from a man called Jack Wilson who went school at Carlise return to his tribe the Paiutes and mixed his belief and the christian belief together then it spread across the west as it made it way to Lakota country it changed again so
the whole belief adopted as it came east. Many of our people never believed in the Ghost dance and either
did Sitting Bull. So it was a cult.
The Christian belief has been changed and adapted by those who wrote the book like the monk who made mary a virgin or the ideal the peter started the church in rome which none of it is true, a cult that spread.

The belief in something greater than it self is not a cult but something personal inside of you that no man can tell you how or what to believe.


I am sorry for the misunderstand i did not go back to the frist page when i wrote because I was talking about the cherokee who are not recogized never been a part of their tribe but want to be.
I will say I am sorry that the tribe you named does not have the cultural background.
I guess the core of who I am is my culture and language and yes it is hard to understand why a person would claim to be but not live. Our culture is hard but we must live it
In Spirit

Offline Sparks

  • Posts: 952
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #235 on: January 03, 2020, 04:56:54 pm »
Question:  Who determines State Recognition in Alabama? Who decides if a group is a legitimate tribe?
 
Answer:  The Alabama Indian Affairs Commission

Tribes Recognized by the State of Alabama 
Quote
[…] Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe of Alabama
James C. Wright, Chief
202 North Main
Kinston, AL 36453
(334) 565-3038 
E-Mail: chiefjames@centurytel.net
Web Site: www.machistribe.com
 
Commissioners
Quote
Ma-Chis Lower Creek
Nancy Carnley
PO Box 7
New Brockton, AL 36351-0007
(334) 894-0108
E-Mail: machis@centurytel.net […]

The above-mentioned tribe is now the subject of a new topic:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5445.0
[Ma-Chis Lower Creek Indian Tribe]