Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 119961 times)

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2009, 11:41:41 pm »
Quote
Surprisingly, they are listed as Delaware. I have found several distant cousins of my generation who have also been doing genealogy research and they also report never hearing anyone in the family mention Delaware and always being told that the Indians in our family were Cherokee.

Its interesting you say that, because we have thousands of citizens of the Cherokee Nation today who are Delaware and Shawnee by blood as opposed to Cherokee.  This has to do with a treaty.  Have you ever looked up their names on Dawes or other Cherokeee Rolls taraveti.  

1899-1906 was when they would have had to apply to Dawes.  


Since your geneology involves Oklahoma, this is a good organization that may be able to assit your research and answer questions about the Delaware issue.
http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2009, 12:00:23 am »
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 12:07:42 am by Paul123 »

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2009, 01:10:33 am »
Paul, thank you.

Taraverti, I don't think you should feel like you're doing something wrong.  I know I wrote out my feelings/thoughts on this, but it wasn't in regards to people like you.  It was in regards to the 1000's that just want to be ndn.. or who are up in the clouds about their ancestry and not seeing the reality of the situation. 

There are  A LOT of people who clamor for ndn spirituality, but over look the ndn part of it. The culture and what.  That's what I see about it.  And that's why I think it should be guarded more than just open, so it doesn't get diluted.. like that video ... I watched that.  It's sad.

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2009, 02:20:46 am »
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.











Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2009, 03:29:26 am »
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

Paul, by that logic, why am I not British, or French, or Scotch, or German, or Welsh? I wasn't kidding in that other thread about being a direct descendant of Edward the III. So by your logic, why aren't I a member of the royal family of Britian?

This is also my family:

http://www.pamplin.net/pamplin/ligon.htm

It would be silly for me to claim to be Royal based on this, so why is my Cherokee heritage any different?

Apart from that I believe not claiming to be Cherokee is suportive of the soveriegnty of the Cherokee tribes. So it's partly a purposeful thing on my part to draw that line. To make a point. When there are so many fake Cherokee out there disrespecting the Nations, I am taking an opposite stance.
 
But I absolulely love what you are doing with the sattelite community. And if the CNO ever decides to do anything near Philadlephia, I will be the first in line.

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2009, 03:59:36 am »
Paul I just wanted to add, that I know my position on that is a little odd, and I do not mean to imply that other people should feel the same.

I am a bit of a gadfly and a bit oppositional by nature and I will purposely do things sometimes to try and make people think about things.

Plus, it's not about me. It's about what is in the best interests of the Cherokee people.

And that is why I keep asking this question:

As a descendant, what choices can I make that will support the wellbeing of the Indian Nations?

For me, for now, this is the answer.

And I still think you should learn the language. ;)

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2009, 04:22:51 am »
Quote
Surprisingly, they are listed as Delaware. I have found several distant cousins of my generation who have also been doing genealogy research and they also report never hearing anyone in the family mention Delaware and always being told that the Indians in our family were Cherokee.

Its interesting you say that, because we have thousands of citizens of the Cherokee Nation today who are Delaware and Shawnee by blood as opposed to Cherokee.  This has to do with a treaty.  Have you ever looked up their names on Dawes or other Cherokeee Rolls taraveti.  

1899-1906 was when they would have had to apply to Dawes.

  


Since your geneology involves Oklahoma, this is a good organization that may be able to assit your research and answer questions about the Delaware issue.
http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/cherokeeheritage/genealogy.html

Thank you so much BlackWolf. I will check it out.

Slowly but surely I am filling in the blanks. I almost think they appear when they are ready. I had been looking for information about my great grandfather for several years with no luck, and the day after I went to Carlisle to participate in White Bison's Journey of Forgiveness, and prayed for his grandchildren, that Civil War record with his name on it showed up almost out of the blue.

Cousins also show up periodically with little pieces of information. It's been wonderful.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2009, 10:24:20 am »


Paul, by that logic, why am I not British, or French, or Scotch, or German, or Welsh? I wasn't kidding in that other thread about being a direct descendant of Edward the III. So by your logic, why aren't I a member of the royal family of Britian?

I simply gave you my opinion, As I said,,, I think you to be Cherokee. If you choose not to think of yourself as such, that is your decision (both of my parents did the same, (each of them were 1/4)). If you choose to put some other word in front or behind the name, that too is up to you. The British, or French, or Scotch, or Germans all have Citizenship requirements too, and if for some reason you choose to move to France and apply for citizenship I'm sure that with time you would be able to meet all of their requirements. Then you would be a French/Cherokee. ha,ha.

The Cherokee Nation is no different it's just that some people that may wish to gain Citizenship can't and they know this. It does seem that they have came up with an alternative to fill that void.

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2009, 01:42:21 pm »

I simply gave you my opinion, As I said,,, I think you to be Cherokee.

Paul, this touched me. And if the Cherokee Nation ever started naturalizing citizens, I'd probably attempt to jump through any hoop they wanted me to.

Meanwhile, it's good to be able to continue to learn and connect with people.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2009, 03:16:57 pm »
Paul
Quote
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ...

And then I saw this posted over at Indianz.com , written by David Cornsilk which fits in with this train of thought perfectly

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38820

Quote
Even if you proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you had some long distant Cherokee ancestor, neither I, nor any single Cherokee citizen could declare you a Cherokee anymore than a single Brit could make you a British subject just because you have English ancestry. Get with the program, the Cherokee governments are NATIONS. Our citizens are nationals of our government. There are no other Cherokees out there. There can't be, because if there are, then our institutions don't matter. If someone has a long distant Cherokee ancestor, that's all they have. Neither that ancestor, nor whatever so called Cherokee blood that might still pass through the veins, can make you a Cherokee. Only the Cherokee people, conglomerate, speaking with one voice through their governing documents can legitimately say who is and who is not a Cherokee. The word Cherokee belongs to the Cherokee people (US), even though it is not a word originating with us. We and only we, the legitimate Cherokee people of the UKB, CNO, CN, EBC can designate that name and special status upon someone. You cannot legitimately take it for yourself without our permission.

And if, by some slim chance you do have a long distant Cherokee ancestor, I'd be willing to call you a Cherokee descendant, but that is all I could call you or you could ever be. It is just the same as the fact that I descend from an Italian, but I am NOT Italian. I am not a national of Italy, I am only a descendant. Sure I can go around and brag about being part Italian and sometimes do. But there is no Italian government here to take offense and I'm sure not forming a group and trying to claim to be a West Italy.

When you diminish our nationality to a mere speck of blood, and then lay claim to it because of some alleged speck of blood you say you possess, you diminish the status of the indigenous governments. You infer that our governments and our institutions are of no consequence. By your argument, the only thing that matters is unity, but with whom? We are already unified. Why would we want to unify with people who can't prove anything and are otherwise foreigners to us.

David Cornsilk

Maybe some parts of this aren't appropriate to the people here's specific circumstances, but the basic request that people respect the right of the Cherokee Nations to determine who is and who is not Cherokee, would still apply. Taraverti obviously understands and respects this, but I'm not sure Paul does...

EP Groundine
Quote
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.

I feel like a bit of a wet blanket , continuing to press this issue, because I really do understand that the need to have this acknowledged can go deep, and if a family decided to not be Native or of Native descent, or to not talk about this , there is often some trauma associated with this which can echo down through several generations, and it seems being able to acknowledge this and be acknowledged is sometimes a very real need in peoples healing process.

Which is all the more reason not to sabatoge you and your cousins hopes to be acknowledged, by offending the people who have the actual authority to do this ...     

In my own opinion, the one thing descendents might rightly be entitled to is counciling services that are sensitive to Native people and some of the issues descendents can face, as sometimes the effects are very real and these people do need culturally appropriate support. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 03:37:07 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2009, 09:19:10 pm »

 I have found so many things in this thread that are totally inconsistent that would think it would give people more questions then answers.

 For instance let me start with the word descendant here.

 In the terms I often hear descendant used both on this site and elsewhere, it means a person who descends from a tribe but for some reason is not enrolled.

  However I know a person born and raised on their rez, and who does know their culture and ways very well who is considered a  "descendant" because though their own mother is enrolled, they themselves do not fit their tribes BQ enrollment requirements because they have more Mexican and blood of a few other California tribes in their ancestry then they do of their tribe. This of course is their mother's fault and not their own.

 So in this regards, the word descendant is some ways a political word that really doesn't always mean if somebody is NDN or not, but rather if their tribe recognizes them. In many of these cases the community and traditional people might recognize individuals that fall under these circumstances as NDN and one of their people when their tribe does not.

 In cases like this, and because of cases like this; though I do fully support tribal sovereignty I do not think the choices they make necessarily are always the best for NDN people. I also do not think that the decisions they make necessarily should be the final answer regarding if somebody is NDN or not.

 Often times out here in California the decisions tribal governments make are not fully accepted by the populace. In this regards I am speaking of the hundreds upon hundreds of dis-enrollments tribal governments here make in which their own tribal members object to, and most often still regard those whom have been dis-enrolled as NDN's from their tribe. I have seen this with my own eyes.


 If the word descendant is equal to the word PODIA at times in a sense that it means somebody coming from a family that has not had connection to a tribe and the NDN person they claim to be from in so many generations that they can't prove a single thing; then in that situation I would see the rationale behind that since to embrace those such people as whom they claim to be would be detrimental to the tribe and NDN people in general.

 Another point to be made is that a tribe such as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma will enroll anyone regardless of their BQ, while a tribe whom the same as them by blood such as the EBC has it's cut off at 1/16  by blood.

 So in this case with the EBC, anyone whom is less then 1/16 would be a descendant regardless if they have proof or not, while the CNO will enroll anyone with a relation on the Dawes no matter how low the BQ. So in these cases the term PODIA and descendant are based on different standards in regards to people that are technically of the same people but are members of, or attempting to gain membership in two tribal governments that used to be the same people politically at one time,and always by blood and relation.

 Furthermore, in both tribal governments there is no stipulation in the enrollment process that dictates one must be knowledgeable in Cherokee culture whatsoever. So a person whom is 1/512 or 1/16, and NON Cherokee in culture could enroll. In both cases, a person such as this would be deemed a PODIA on this very board and lectured for claiming to be from one of those tribes if they were not enrolled. Now if they were enrolled they would be "legally" NDN and nobody here could really say a word unless they were exploiters or saying things that were not true.

 In the situation of taraverti, I personally see no harm in him acknowledging or saying he is Cherokee as long a he is recognizing and respecting the boundaries set before him based on non enrollment, and I am guessing not part of any legitimate Cherokee community. Going by the information he presented I don't feel he falls under the term PODIA, and he is only a descendant by legal terms rather then by blood terms that would also make him a PODIA, which he does not seem to be.

 I think taraverti would for the moment fall under the terms I read John Cornsilk refer to as "outtalucks" because they claim to be, but for some reason is  not enrolled and may not be able to be.

 Now for an issue of mine I have with some on this board, which is what seems to be their inability to see the world through eyes and life experiences other then their own.

 I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled. Of course this situation and their life experiences based on this matter have given them a viewpoint that I would say is based primarily by their experiences. To be honest most of what I read them say on here passed that seems to be based on what I feel is nothing more then book knowledge of NDN's.

 The issue I have with them, and a number of others on here is that they seem to make decisions and judgments here on people based their personal experiences alone, and those personal experiences I feel are just theirs, and not based on living in or having contact with an NDN community off of the internet.

 On a typical basis I see them make comments similar to  "if you are not enough NDN by blood to be facing discrimination, then you are not really NDN." To me such a view point and statement shows that they most likely are not living in, or dealing with NDN people off of the internet. I know full bloods that have grand kids are low BQ totally white looking that are considered as NDN by the community they live in regardless if they are enrolled or not. I know of such things in communities I am not even a part of, but have been told of by members of various communities.

 Being NDN was never something based on how much discrimination a person was going through in their lives. Of course never was the concepts of BQ or enrollment until the coming of NONs and the social  institutions and concepts they set up. Issues of BQ, enrollment, lack there of, cultural awareness/lack of, full blood vs mixed blood, high bq vs low etc etc do give us all different experiences and views of the world.  A full blood living traditionally on the rez I will concede is the truest to what it means to be NDN, and did prior to the coming of NONs, however the other circumstances I mention were brought and created by NONs coming here and causing those issues in NDN country. Those issues should be used against some, and their status as an NDN person being denied of them because they are not facing some sort of discrimination because of being NDN. That might not really fit into this thread, but I do see it come up in similar threads, and I usually say nothing to avoid a conflict with that person.


 Though I am not in this thread advocating that anyone claiming some NDN ancestor or ancestry is NDN or should be considered as such; I am pointing out there are loop holes in much of what has been discussed here and the terms used in the discussion. Some may not like them pointed out for various reasons, but in dealing with people with real emotions and concerns, such things need to be pointed out and discussed.


 



Offline E.P. Grondine

  • Posts: 402
    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2009, 10:07:40 pm »
Paul
Quote
@ Taraverti,

In your post #26 you gave your story and then you asked if that made you an NDN. Then you answered it NO! A thousand times you said. Well sure that is your choice. I think that you are Cherokee, but that your just not a Citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Has it somehow now become wrong to think that if one is not enrolled that they are not Cherokee?  I am sure that some people would rather that you say NO or that you put some word in front or behind the name Cherokee like un-enrolled Cherokee or Cherokee descendant. I don't see the problem, your not asking for money better spent on the elderly.

When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ...

And then I saw this posted over at Indianz.com , written by David Cornsilk which fits in with this train of thought perfectly

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38820

Quote
Even if you proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you had some long distant Cherokee ancestor, neither I, nor any single Cherokee citizen could declare you a Cherokee anymore than a single Brit could make you a British subject just because you have English ancestry. Get with the program, the Cherokee governments are NATIONS. Our citizens are nationals of our government. There are no other Cherokees out there. There can't be, because if there are, then our institutions don't matter. If someone has a long distant Cherokee ancestor, that's all they have. Neither that ancestor, nor whatever so called Cherokee blood that might still pass through the veins, can make you a Cherokee. Only the Cherokee people, conglomerate, speaking with one voice through their governing documents can legitimately say who is and who is not a Cherokee. The word Cherokee belongs to the Cherokee people (US), even though it is not a word originating with us. We and only we, the legitimate Cherokee people of the UKB, CNO, CN, EBC can designate that name and special status upon someone. You cannot legitimately take it for yourself without our permission.

And if, by some slim chance you do have a long distant Cherokee ancestor, I'd be willing to call you a Cherokee descendant, but that is all I could call you or you could ever be. It is just the same as the fact that I descend from an Italian, but I am NOT Italian. I am not a national of Italy, I am only a descendant. Sure I can go around and brag about being part Italian and sometimes do. But there is no Italian government here to take offense and I'm sure not forming a group and trying to claim to be a West Italy.

When you diminish our nationality to a mere speck of blood, and then lay claim to it because of some alleged speck of blood you say you possess, you diminish the status of the indigenous governments. You infer that our governments and our institutions are of no consequence. By your argument, the only thing that matters is unity, but with whom? We are already unified. Why would we want to unify with people who can't prove anything and are otherwise foreigners to us.

David Cornsilk

Maybe some parts of this aren't appropriate to the people here's specific circumstances, but the basic request that people respect the right of the Cherokee Nations to determine who is and who is not Cherokee, would still apply. Taraverti obviously understands and respects this, but I'm not sure Paul does...

EP Grondine
Quote
In my own case, all I want to share publicly here is that the denial of NDN ancestors left an emotional hole which caused pain.

I think that trying to fill in those holes leave some people vulnerable to the predators in some cases. In other words, it's not all wannabes, the confused, etc.

I feel like a bit of a wet blanket , continuing to press this issue, because I really do understand that the need to have this acknowledged can go deep, and if a family decided to not be Native or of Native descent, or to not talk about this , there is often some trauma associated with this which can echo down through several generations, and it seems being able to acknowledge this and be acknowledged is sometimes a very real need in peoples healing process.


Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

Which is all the more reason not to sabatoge you and your cousins hopes to be acknowledged, by offending the people who have the actual authority to do this ...    

Its not a hope to be acknowledged, its simply filling the hole left by that denial. The lingering effects of the conquest and racism. "Shawnee Descendant" is fine. Now how does one live as a Shawnee Descendant?

In my own opinion, the one thing descendents might rightly be entitled to is counciling services that are sensitive to Native people and some of the issues descendents can face, as sometimes the effects are very real and these people do need culturally appropriate support.  

And good luck trying to find anyone who is that skilled.

I simply went out and met with who fate brought me into contact with, the bad, the good, and the very good. Compared notes with the good and very good and learned from them. Learned a lot from the hundred percenters as well.

But I also ran into the predators.

That's why I keep hoping that the Nations will be able to figure out some way to handle this, otherwise NAFPS can take down any one predator, but then another will pop up to run the same cons - spiritual theft, the spiritual predators.

Since your Loyal by descent, there is one woman I know who is hoping for a sit down of the leadership of the Absentee, Loyal, Eastern Remnant and the Canadian Shawnee at Signal Mountain to work through these problems.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:28:25 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 10:33:58 pm »
Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

I understand what you are saying, regarding holes in a person's feeling of ancestry, of not being 'acknowledged' ..  but..  and maybe it's inappropriate for me to say this.. but..

I cannot seem to make the connection between how this is the responsibility of any ndn tribe or nation?  Or how by accepting them without limitation solves the issues they have?

A hole left due to lack of acknowledgment is painful, such holes do not occur just from 'race' non-acknowledgment, but also in lack of acknowledging a person is a person, or is worth while.  We have millions of people on this planet with such holes.  

But to this particular subject, such a person with such a hole may seek to find acceptance and find none.  They have choices.  They can ask for guidance from those rejecting them to point them in a direction where they may learn correctly of what they need to know of their ancestry.. or.. they can begin a search on their own, crossing off those that seem fraudulent.. or..  they can go and buy willy nilly this and that and pay money to any some one who is claiming this or that.

Having been a person, (and still am) with many holes and more.. I cannot possibly ever see putting the blame of what messed up my life on anyone other than myself.  I had choices.  

I do agree that Fraud Awareness should be risen.  It should be in the public eye and on national news so people.. ALL PEOPLE will learn and not suffer from the hands of such charlatans.  

However, I do not see that if ndn tribes/nations just accepted these people that that would heal their holes.  Those issues are personal within, and are a path unto themselves..  and a person has to walk their paths, as many and as varied as they are.  No one can just take away what pains another ..  even if accepted.. that hole will still be there.  That is what I'm trying to say.  It will not just 'disappear'.  

I do not see what you are saying to be a solution to people's pain.  Rejection is a difficult pain, but if a person learns to accept their own self, then it no longer matters who rejects them.

And.. I do not see how not acknowledging these people will keep them from predators.  A person has to have some common sense of their own, I would think.  I just am having a very hard time understanding how a blanket acceptance/invitation to any podia or descendant or whatever term..  would automatically protect them from predators?  They are still vulnerable and available as they were before, if a con man is good enough, he can con anyone.  

« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 10:38:56 pm by critter »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2009, 10:38:25 pm »
Indeed, and that's what leaves them vulnerable to the predators.

I understand what you are saying, regarding holes in a person's feeling of ancestry, of not being 'acknowledged' ..  but..  and maybe it's inappropriate for me to say this.. but..

I cannot seem to make the connection between how this is the responsibility of any ndn tribe or nation?  Or how by accepting them without limitation solves the issues they have?

A hole left due to lack of acknowledgment is painful, such holes do not occur just from 'race' non-acknowledgment, but also in lack of acknowledging a person is a person, or is worth while.  We have millions of people on this planet with such holes. 

But to this particular subject, such a person with such a hole may seek to find acceptance and find none.  They have choices.  They can ask for guidance from those rejecting them to point them in a direction where they may learn correctly of what they need to know of their ancestry.. or.. they can begin a search on their own, crossing off those that seem fraudulent.. or..  they can go and buy willy nilly this and that and pay money to any some one who is claiming this or that.

Having been a person, (and still am) with many holes and more.. I cannot possibly ever see putting the blame of what messed up my life on anyone other than myself.  I had choices. 

I do agree that Fraud Awareness should be risen.  It should be in the public eye and on national news so people.. ALL PEOPLE will learn and not suffer from the hands of such charlatans. 

However, I do not see that if ndn tribes/nations just accepted these people that that would heal their holes.  Those issues are personal within, and are a path unto themselves..  and a person has to walk their paths, as many and as varied as they are.  No one can just take away what pains another ..  even if accepted.. that hole will still be there.  That is what I'm trying to say.  It will not just 'disappear'. 

I do not see what you are saying to be a solution to people's pain.  Rejection is a difficult pain, but if a person learns to accept their own self, then it no longer matters who rejects them.

And.. I do not see how not acknowledging these people will keep them from predators.  A person has to have some common sense of their own, I would think.  I just am having a very hard time understanding how a blanket acceptance/invitation to any podia or descendant or whatever term..  would automatically protect them from predators?  They are still vulnerable and available as they were before, if a con man is good enough, he can can anyone.   


Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2009, 10:41:36 pm »
Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?

Hi, I'm totally NON and just here to help if I can.. and to learn.  Have learned lots so far.  :)

Justice, have not thought of that.  Justice is not a term I know much about, as have not experienced it to know of it.  Can justice be found in what EP is saying?  If so, then that is a good thing!   

Thank you.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html