Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 119947 times)

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 09:48:15 pm »
Keely said this in the forum “Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation”

Quote
I don’t know what a PODIA is, but if it refers to the claims tht people left the trail during removal, they don’t know anything about the removals, the records kept before, during and after removal, and IF anyone did leave the tribe, then it is viewed as turning their backs on the people, and they are no longer considered a member of that Nation. They abandoned their people for them to suffer... what a selfish act that would have been... they made a choice for themselves and their future generations.. they are not Indian.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2009, 09:49:43 pm »
Also, here’s a video for all you whites and other non Cherokees in general that seem to be obsessed with the BQ thing with us Cherokees. It really does get annoying after a while, especially coming from outsiders of our Tribe and our Communities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIGsErw0XDY&feature=channel

Pay attention to the last part of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJfEnCLktw&feature=channel


http://www.meetthecherokee.org/OurStory/tabid/1718/Default.aspx

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2009, 01:04:23 am »
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"

 I asked these questions ,post number five, all have been answered in some form.  I would like to hear some more of all of the group's opinions on why I have not run into this issue of state tribes until the last few years thanks "LittleOldMan"  


I think it has a lot to do with the spread of the internet, along with the formation of the Task Force put together. I think that the harsh position the Task Force took by tossing all State Tribes into the same group as the Internet,  post office box and rent a sweat lodge tribes was wrong. But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

Then comes the internet posters like those here or at NDNZ.com or a dozen other forums like this one. Forums are by nature a place that stirs up some strong emotions. (flame wars). It's like putting gas and fire together. This is a topic than can lead to some very heated debates. There are some that thrive on the debates that can come from such a polarized topic. The stronger the debates the more likely other people that would normally just sit back and read the posts  will jump in and post or take sides. this info spreads all over the internet, and of course it gets the attention of the T.F. and they suddenly see a need to put out stronger statements and the dog begins to chase it's tail. and round and round it goes.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 01:06:48 am by Paul123 »

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2009, 02:55:37 am »
I'm sure back when these groups were first appearing in the 70's, or 80's, they weren't really that well know.  The internet not only made it easier for these phoney groups to recruit, but it also eventually worked againts them at the same time.  With the internet, and sites like this, more people are becoming aware of not only Exploiters, but the bogus groups that call themselves Tribes. 

Its just like this site for example and all the good work that NAFPS and its supporters has been doing over the years. Everyone might not agree with everyone else on certain topics, ( As we can see with the ongoing feuds between a few members ) but I think for the most part, everyone here should be commended for their fight against Exploiters and these other groups.

Exposing all these fakes before the internet came around would be/was a lot more difficult.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2009, 02:59:45 am »
Quote
But the T.F. put out a lot of damning statements about the fakers and at the same time the State Tribes that they had considered to be benign suddenly found themselves in the cross hairs.

What do you mean by this Paul123?  Give me an example of a "daming statement"  I think the Task Force has been more then fair and mabye even a little too generous about not questioning people's claims of Cherokee Heritage.   

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2009, 03:04:10 am »
There is a couple things I am noticing about this conversation which make me wonder.

I don't understand why people aren't happy to simply be recognized as descendents. Why do people see that as somehow less fufilling than being a member of a Federal or State Tribe?

Why do people who grew up in a non native community with a predominantly non native heritage feel the need to say they are [Cherokee] ( or whatever the tribe is ) instead of just saying their grandma or gr gr grandma was?   

People who are posting in defence of people of distant Indian ancestry claiming an NDN identity, repeatedly say it's not about trying to get anything material, and it's all about the culture and a sense of belonging.

So what doesn't make sense to me is , why does the conversation keep coming back to whether or not people are citizens of a tribe? Why do people seem so desperate to be told being a member of a State tribes is OK ?

How is formal citizenship necessary to have relationships or family ties within the tribal community peoples ancestors came from ?

What sort of activities do people feel they are unable to participate in without this formal citizenship, and how do they think this would change if they had this ?

What real difference do people think it would make , whether they are refered to as descendents or tribal citizens?

I guess I am also wondering if people might have some unrealistic ideas about what it would mean to be enrolled in a Native community .

Blackwolf mentions the resentment some Cherokee people feel towards  the descendents of people who are seen to have abandoned their people.

But from what I have seen, this isn't just towards people who think they have a distant ancestor. I have seen this same resentment towards enrolled people who are close to full blood because they left their community and after a couple decades of living in the White world and doing OK for themselves , they try to return . I've more than once heard where these people feel rejected and get the message they have become too white in their ways - even if they were born and grew up on the rez.

When many Native communities are struggling with extreme poverty, drug and alchohol abuse, child abuse , domestic violence , suicide, ect ect ect. it seems more than a little unrealistic for a complete stranger to expect to be welcomed and have all their emotional needs taken care of.

So I wonder what it is exactly that people imagine they want - and does this even exist anywhere except in their own imaginations ?

Thinking about it, the people I know who are PODIAs who have successfully reconnected with the Native community , are almost always skilled in some practical way and have found a way to use their practical skills to benifit the Native community . ( and I don't mean people who are so Indian in their heart, the Native community is wowed and benifits from their glorious presence...)

One thing that might lead to a better understanding on all sides, is if some people were comfortable to share some personal stories where they have tried to reconnect, how they tried to do this, and how they felt wrongly rejected. (I mean ways other than not being able to enroll in the tribe)

Is there something besides enrollment, that people felt they weren't allowed to participate in, that seemed unfair?

I guess what I am wondering is , what is it exactly that descendents who get labeled wannabes want... and why?

Maybe someone could explain...?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 03:18:06 am by Moma_porcupine »

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2009, 03:14:25 am »
Good questions Moma P, and I wonder the same.  I do have a question though, about ndn's who leave and then come back.  I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back, do the people take personal offense when a member has to go to another 'world' (so to speak) in order to see the value of the one they left.. or to realize the value of their people.  Often teenagers are like this.. and some people are just mud headed..  I guess.  I could understand some stand offishness for a period of time, but it is hard to understand a rejection of them.

Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain? 

Thank you.  :)

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2009, 03:36:16 am »
Quote
How is formal citizenship necessary to have relationships or family ties within the tribal community peoples ancestors came from ?

This is a very very good point Moma_porcupine.  If people are secure in their idenities, then why do they need formal recognition from a Tribal Goverment that their ancestors abandoned almost 200 years ago.  I don't know too many Italian Americans that feel the need to be recognized as Italian Citizens by the goverment of Italy. For the most part, they are secure in their idenities.  Is a CDIB/Tribal ID really going to change who somebody is? 

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2009, 03:46:47 am »
Blackwolf
Quote
I don't know too many Italian Americans that feel the need to be recognized as Italian Citizens by the goverment of Italy.

Or how many American people who's great grandma was Italian would be silly enough to think they can learn how to be Italian...  If these people learned about Italian culture they would probably gain some insight into who they already are, but it wouldn't transform them into Italians...

Critter
   
Quote
I don't quite follow the logic of not welcoming them back,

I don't fully understand that either. Sometimes it seems to be connected to people already being stressed with not having nough resources to go around. I've also heard unimpressed sounding comments about someone being "fancy". And someone who had gotten a university education and been using this in the city said they had felt they were alienating some people because they used their full vocabulary . Again people felt they were being fancy. Anyways , what I was trying to get at ( besides that I only have 1/2 a clue myself ) is that if people who grew up in a Native community and are members have problems like this, why would someone who's family left generations ago expect to be welcomed with open arms?   

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2009, 04:04:25 am »
There are members of the CNO and UKB who don't think EBC should even exist. It may not be as bad now as it used to be, but there are still those who would deny the Eastern Band. The majority of the EBC are people whose ancestors opted to stay in the east. They renounced their Cherokee citizenship and became citizens of North Carolina. Yes, they lived in Cherokee communities and retained their culture; but they were no longer citizens of the Cherokee Nation. Decades went by before they petitioned the United States government to be recognized as the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. I'm not criticizing or finding fault with what they or anyone else did in the southeast during the years prior to and during removal. The same as I can't blame my ancestors for what they did. They were doing what they thought was best for their family. I understand why some in Oklahoma feel the way they do, although I don't agree with them. If the Cherokee in Oklahoma have trouble accepting the people on Qualla as Cherokee citizens, how much harder is it for them to accept someone with a claim of a gr gr gr gr gr gramma or grampa? Anyone claiming Cherokee ancestry should be able to prove it. As David Cornsilk says, the Cherokee are the most documented people on the face of the earth. Dawes and Baker were not the first rolls; the Cherokee have been counted almost since first European contact.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2009, 04:11:18 am »
Quote
If the Cherokee in Oklahoma have trouble accepting the people on Qualla as Cherokee citizens, how much harder is it for them to accept someone with a claim of a gr gr gr gr gr gramma or grampa?

Eastern Band members ARE accepted as Cherokees, and are our kin, and they should in no way shape or form even be remotely put in the same catagory as people with misterious Cherokee ancestry based on vague stories of a Cherokee great grandma.

With that said, Cherokees in Oklahoma don't like when Eastern Band members refer to them as the Western Band. Because its the Cherokee Nation.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2009, 04:18:20 am »
Quote
Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain?

What is it thats stoping these people from reconnecting.  They can get on planes or have cars.  If they want to bad enough, then why don't they go visit a real Cherokee community and see how Tradional Cherokee people really live.  Maybe they'll see then that its not all a beautiful romantic fairy tale like they imagine.


Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2009, 04:23:56 am »
It's not that they don't recognize the Eastern Band as Cherokee and kin. Some don't recognize them as Cherokee citizens, because their ancestors renounced their Cherokee citizenship in the 1800's and became citizens of North Carolina. Cherokee by blood, but not citizens of the Cherokee Nation.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2009, 04:35:00 am »
Quote
But from what I have seen, this isn't just towards people who think they have a distant ancestor. I have seen this same resentment towards enrolled people who are close to full blood because they left their community and after a couple decades of living in the White world and doing OK for themselves , they try to return . I've more than once heard where these people feel rejected and get the message they have become too white in their ways - even if they were born and grew up on the rez.


There are a lot of Cherokee Citizens who are disconnected to Cherokee culture.  A lot of them just live like regular people. They play football, basketball, tennis, listen to rock n roll, rap, country, etc. They are Cherokee yes, and they are proud of it, and are recognized as such.  But I have yet to meet disconnected Cherokeees that feel the need to dress up in buckskin and pretend to be something that they are not.  Some Cherokee Citizens are Christain, and some are more racially white, and some more racially black.  And their cool with it.  They are what they are.  Thats why its so perplexing to see these fakes who are in essence pretending to be mixed bloods, when real disconnected mixed bloods just act themselves.  I guess it has to do with the fact of how secure people are in their idenities.  If people just be themselves and act themselves, they would find out that they would be a lot more respected by Cherokees whether or not they are enrolled.

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2009, 04:41:40 am »
Quote
Also, for the Cherokees who abandoned their people and then their sons/daughters want to reconnect, I am not understanding why what the father/mother did is placed on the child who had no choice in the matter at the time (or great grndsons/daughters, or grt grt.. ) .. if someone could explain?

What is it thats stoping these people from reconnecting.  They can get on planes or have cars.  If they want to bad enough, then why don't they go visit a real Cherokee community and see how Tradional Cherokee people really live.  Maybe they'll see then that its not all a beautiful romantic fairy tale like they imagine.

Oh.  I didn't mean that way.  I was referring to the quote from Keely..

"They abandoned their people for them to suffer... what a selfish act that would have been... they made a choice for themselves and their future generations.. they are not Indian."

It left me thinking that 'those' descendants would never be welcomed regardless of anything.  

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html