Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 119988 times)

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 10:52:13 pm »
Maybe for some, it's about justice??

 Also...are you NDN or totally a NON here to help expose exploiters?

Hi, I'm totally NON and just here to help if I can.. and to learn.  Have learned lots so far.  :)

Justice, have not thought of that.  Justice is not a term I know much about, as have not experienced it to know of it.  Can justice be found in what EP is saying?  If so, then that is a good thing!   

Thank you.

Oh ok that's cool. Nothing wrong with you being a NON or anything. I was just curious because it helps me to figure out where somebody is coming from sometimes ya know.

 As for the justice aspect as I mentioned, I don't know really. Perhaps that might be a issue with some people.

 I don't know why some people wish to identify as Indian any more then you do at times.

 I do have a belief why some wish to identify as NDN or be enrolled. My reason for that belief is based on something I learned in ceremony in combination with what I was told by a very well known person in NDN country.

 If I expressed that belief here it may possibly explain about some people and their desires to identify as NDN or be enrolled.

 The thing with my belief however is that I do not think it would be right to put the reasons behind that belief in public view because I do not want to educate fakes and exploiters on some things thus giving them another argument or tool to help them in their vices.

 

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 11:08:10 pm »
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 11:20:39 pm »
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.

 Though I have not read a lot of what E.P has said in this thread, but I do agree with them if that is what they are saying.

 I think the satellite communities being set up by the Cherokee Nation are a step in that direction though. It is giving a lot of these people a sense of belonging if that is what they are after, and at the same times seems to be setting them up to learn real Cherokee culture.

 So in turn this not only helps those doing the searching, but also helps the tribe in possibly fighting off frauds that way, but also preserving the culture by those who are genuinely interested.

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 11:28:36 pm »
what I hear E.P. saying is: there are a bunch of fakes and frauds out there plauging the tribes. Some are doing real damage. Some of their power comes from descendants searching for something who get sucked in.  Pragmatically, would an ounce of prevention be worth a pound of cure? Not enrollment, but some sort of legitimate heritage organization which could be an asset to the tribes as opposed to a liability.
I don't get any sense of entitlement from him.
just my two cents - I'm mobile right now and can't reply at length.

Thanks.  I agree with what Rattlebone said. 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2009, 12:11:34 am »
I have questions please.  I have been involved with Indian issues for a couple of decades now.  I do not remember that the issue of State recognized tribes ever came up until two or three years ago.  What has caused this.  Is it that the culture will be diluted or corrupted.  Is it that the available Federal or State monies may be siphoned off by other than Fed Indians. Or is it a combination of the two.  How does art or craft labeled as Native American made figure into the mix.  Thank you for your responses in advance with respect to all "LittleOldMan"

 I asked these questions ,post number five, all have been answered in some form.  I would like to hear some more of all of the group's opinions on why I have not run into this issue of state tribes until the last few years thanks "LittleOldMan"   
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2009, 01:48:57 am »


When I read this, what I thought was "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion, but he really doesn't have the right to make that decision, and that he seems to think he does, is another example of the type of behavior that is likely to offend and alienate the very people he says he wants to connect with."

I am not saying I think he meant it this way, but it is something to be aware of  ..

Of course I didn't mean it that way,,, well the part where you said "Well thats nice and I guess he is welcome to his opinion


That was cool... And I thought it was clear that it was only an opinion,,, (we all have one) ;D  I hope you can see that I never made a decision for any group,,, I only gave MY opinion.  (it's a long path, a year from now my opinion may be different, ya never know)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 02:15:35 am by Paul123 »

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2009, 04:05:47 am »

 I have found so many things in this thread that are totally inconsistent that would think it would give people more questions then answers.

 For instance let me start with the word descendant here.

 In the terms I often hear descendant used both on this site and elsewhere, it means a person who descends from a tribe but for some reason is not enrolled.

  However I know a person born and raised on their rez, and who does know their culture and ways very well who is considered a  "descendant" because though their own mother is enrolled, they themselves do not fit their tribes BQ enrollment requirements because they have more Mexican and blood of a few other California tribes in their ancestry then they do of their tribe. This of course is their mother's fault and not their own.

 So in this regards, the word descendant is some ways a political word that really doesn't always mean if somebody is NDN or not, but rather if their tribe recognizes them. In many of these cases the community and traditional people might recognize individuals that fall under these circumstances as NDN and one of their people when their tribe does not.

 In cases like this, and because of cases like this; though I do fully support tribal sovereignty I do not think the choices they make necessarily are always the best for NDN people. I also do not think that the decisions they make necessarily should be the final answer regarding if somebody is NDN or not.

 Often times out here in California the decisions tribal governments make are not fully accepted by the populace. In this regards I am speaking of the hundreds upon hundreds of dis-enrollments tribal governments here make in which their own tribal members object to, and most often still regard those whom have been dis-enrolled as NDN's from their tribe. I have seen this with my own eyes.


 If the word descendant is equal to the word PODIA at times in a sense that it means somebody coming from a family that has not had connection to a tribe and the NDN person they claim to be from in so many generations that they can't prove a single thing; then in that situation I would see the rationale behind that since to embrace those such people as whom they claim to be would be detrimental to the tribe and NDN people in general.

 Another point to be made is that a tribe such as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma will enroll anyone regardless of their BQ, while a tribe whom the same as them by blood such as the EBC has it's cut off at 1/16  by blood.

 So in this case with the EBC, anyone whom is less then 1/16 would be a descendant regardless if they have proof or not, while the CNO will enroll anyone with a relation on the Dawes no matter how low the BQ. So in these cases the term PODIA and descendant are based on different standards in regards to people that are technically of the same people but are members of, or attempting to gain membership in two tribal governments that used to be the same people politically at one time,and always by blood and relation.

 Furthermore, in both tribal governments there is no stipulation in the enrollment process that dictates one must be knowledgeable in Cherokee culture whatsoever. So a person whom is 1/512 or 1/16, and NON Cherokee in culture could enroll. In both cases, a person such as this would be deemed a PODIA on this very board and lectured for claiming to be from one of those tribes if they were not enrolled. Now if they were enrolled they would be "legally" NDN and nobody here could really say a word unless they were exploiters or saying things that were not true.

 In the situation of taraverti, I personally see no harm in him acknowledging or saying he is Cherokee as long a he is recognizing and respecting the boundaries set before him based on non enrollment, and I am guessing not part of any legitimate Cherokee community. Going by the information he presented I don't feel he falls under the term PODIA, and he is only a descendant by legal terms rather then by blood terms that would also make him a PODIA, which he does not seem to be.

 I think taraverti would for the moment fall under the terms I read John Cornsilk refer to as "outtalucks" because they claim to be, but for some reason is  not enrolled and may not be able to be.

Now for an issue of mine I have with some on this board, which is what seems to be their inability to see the world through eyes and life experiences other then their own.

 I won't mention names here, but one very prolific poster here claims to be a descendant of the EBC, but for some reason their family was not enrolled. Of course this situation and their life experiences based on this matter have given them a viewpoint that I would say is based primarily by their experiences. To be honest most of what I read them say on here passed that seems to be based on what I feel is nothing more then book knowledge of NDN's.

 The issue I have with them, and a number of others on here is that they seem to make decisions and judgments here on people based their personal experiences alone, and those personal experiences I feel are just theirs, and not based on living in or having contact with an NDN community off of the internet.

 On a typical basis I see them make comments similar to  "if you are not enough NDN by blood to be facing discrimination, then you are not really NDN." To me such a view point and statement shows that they most likely are not living in, or dealing with NDN people off of the internet. I know full bloods that have grand kids are low BQ totally white looking that are considered as NDN by the community they live in regardless if they are enrolled or not. I know of such things in communities I am not even a part of, but have been told of by members of various communities.

 Being NDN was never something based on how much discrimination a person was going through in their lives. Of course never was the concepts of BQ or enrollment until the coming of NONs and the social  institutions and concepts they set up. Issues of BQ, enrollment, lack there of, cultural awareness/lack of, full blood vs mixed blood, high bq vs low etc etc do give us all different experiences and views of the world.  A full blood living traditionally on the rez I will concede is the truest to what it means to be NDN, and did prior to the coming of NONs, however the other circumstances I mention were brought and created by NONs coming here and causing those issues in NDN country. Those issues should be used against some, and their status as an NDN person being denied of them because they are not facing some sort of discrimination because of being NDN. That might not really fit into this thread, but I do see it come up in similar threads, and I usually say nothing to avoid a conflict with that person.


 Though I am not in this thread advocating that anyone claiming some NDN ancestor or ancestry is NDN or should be considered as such; I am pointing out there are loop holes in much of what has been discussed here and the terms used in the discussion. Some may not like them pointed out for various reasons, but in dealing with people with real emotions and concerns, such things need to be pointed out and discussed.




By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

I don't mind you quoting me, as long as you actually quote and don't ad lib.

I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences? Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian. I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian. If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.



Edit to add: When I hear someone go on and on about feeling Indian in their heart/soul, wanting to honor their Indian ancestors, wanting to reconnect,  I shake my head. This is the battle cry of every PODIA and wannabe out there. Seven of my great-grandparents were European, but I'm only going to honor my one Native American grandparent. How disrespectful is that? You're the sum-total of all your ancestors; you can't pick and choose.

If your closest relative with ties to their Nation died long before you were born, you're a descendant. You are not Indian. To call yourself Indian and think you're entitled to anything is disrespectful. You cannot demand anything; you're not entitled. Heritage groups are fine, as long as they're done in a respectful way. Associate-membership, as some have advocated, is ludicrous. You are not Indian; you are not entitled to even partial-citizenship.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 02:02:13 pm by bls926 »

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1423
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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2009, 06:25:10 pm »
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.


« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:06:16 pm by earthw7 »
In Spirit

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2009, 06:46:45 pm »
I think you're right Earthw7, for whatever that's worth. 

I am not ndn.  I have no desire to be what I am not, your culture interests me but I do not have desire to learn it inside and out and practice your spirituality.  I'm not saying this to offend, it's because I have my own way of thinking and believing, and it has been good to me, and I have no need to swap it for someone else's. 

But I am here, because I perceive an *importance* here that perhaps I cannot describe in words.  But I believe that the ndn culture/spirituality must be kept. 

People who are descendants and whatnots, I don't know, I"m not so I can't really talk about what it is to be one.. but .. and I don't say this to those who are serious and grounded individuals .. but to the fluttering in the sky minded of all this ndn ancestry..  I think you'd serve your ancestors best by fighting to keep the cultures intact.. by not flooding in and grabbing pieces of it for your own self images.

Again, that is NOT saying for everyone..  not for those just gathering history, or filling in the blanks of their ancestry and self..   this is for those who flock just to be ndn..  those who flock like that, imo, are detrimental to ndn culture/spirituality. 
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2009, 07:05:05 pm »



By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

I don't mind you quoting me, as long as you actually quote and don't ad lib.

I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences? Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian. I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian. If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.



Edit to add: When I hear someone go on and on about feeling Indian in their heart/soul, wanting to honor their Indian ancestors, wanting to reconnect,  I shake my head. This is the battle cry of every PODIA and wannabe out there. Seven of my great-grandparents were European, but I'm only going to honor my one Native American grandparent. How disrespectful is that? You're the sum-total of all your ancestors; you can't pick and choose.

If your closest relative with ties to their Nation died long before you were born, you're a descendant. You are not Indian. To call yourself Indian and think you're entitled to anything is disrespectful. You cannot demand anything; you're not entitled. Heritage groups are fine, as long as they're done in a respectful way. Associate-membership, as some have advocated, is ludicrous. You are not Indian; you are not entitled to even partial-citizenship.

 
Quote
By all means, Rattle, mention names. It's okay. I think most people here realized who you were talking about. Guess two threads where we agreed on something was more than you could bear. Just had to start something. That's fine; let's dance.

 I didn't start anything. I simply mentioned an issue that I see many people on here do, and cited an example of it without mention of names. In doing so I placed no insults whatsoever in the posting, but rather cited what I felt was people trying to transfer their life experiences on another person based on their lives and not the lives or experiences of the other person.

 You claim I was wrong in my assessment of what I read, and perhaps I was; however many people do that on here. I see a lot of people claiming since their life experience of that of another situation equated to one thing, then is must equate to another person who may have come from a family in similar circumstances.

 If you want to get all emotional or angry about that, then that it is on you. I simply stated something for discussion since this thread seemed to cover a lot of different but connected issues.

Quote
I've openly stated the reason that I'm not enrolled; it's no secret. But, in case you missed it . . . My Cherokee ancestors left the Nation and became assimilated. I have family on the 1924 Baker Roll, but not direct descent. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count. As I've said many times, I must live by the decision my ancestors made.

 I am familiar with this detail of your family, and did read you say it a couple times now. Of course I am not sure exactly why you are telling me this now???

 Of course I am not sure if you think you are NDN or not because of this, but it really doesn't matter to me. I however think if you feel you are not because if it, this is not some entitlement for you to say that other people are not NDN with a similar back ground and story as yourself.

Case in point, I have read Moma Porcupine point out on several occasions how people may hold their ancestry very dear to them even if they are not enrolled and their ancestry being rather distant. The effects of colonization and assimilation are strong, but should not be used as a tool against victims of it in order to dictate to them whom they should be identifying with.

 This is not to say I am in support of PODIA's running around claiming they are NDN, and at the same time thinking they are entitled to anything.

 What I am saying however is that I see some on here take such a rigid approach to things in regards to topics like that, to the point it makes me wonder if their only interaction with NDN's is on line in discussion boards such as this.

 I know plenty of full blooded enrolled people, including elders that will accept those who are not enrolled or even so called PODIA's on their word of who they say they are, and watch many in the community see them as NDN all the time.

 I know some on here don't like such things mentioned, and not because of what I say in this regards is untrue, but rather because they don't want to educate some that such things do happen. They feel it might give them ideas on how to sneak into a community. Well that may be true, but honestly bad people with bad intentions are going to do bad things no matter what. So if this board is one about educating people, then I would say those doing the education should hit every angle. Being completely rigid about things is foolishness.

 I know plenty of NDN's who are full blooded and converts to Christianity. One that I know in person is soo strongly catholic that they believe the ways of their people are evil and the work of the devil. They have little to do with other NDN's, and none of their culture obviously. So maybe they are NDN by blood totally, but should I view them as more NDN then some 1/8th person who has a great deal of pride in their ancestry and for reasons known only to them is trying to learn the ways of the people they claim to be from? Especially since the idea of a lot of people on this board seems to point to the concept of being NDN means being the closest thing possible to before Columbus got here.

Quote
Most people's opinions are based on their own personal experiences. How could my opinions be based on someone else's life experiences?

 Exactly, the issue with this I was getting at was for a lack of better words was maybe transference. Except in this case I am under the impression that many try and make judgments on people based on their life experience, and try to dictate that upon somebody else.

 For instance. I know a Navajo elder who is full blooded, and has a grandson whom is only 1/4 Navajo. I asked her once about the concept of BQ and what she felt her grandson should identify as. She said that choice was his to make, and whatever he identified and considered himself to be she would accept. If he claimed to be Navajo then she would be fine with it. It seems on here that some would say that it would be wrong for him to claim to be Navajo, and that he must acknowledge all of who he was or he would be dishonoring his other ancestry. I think not acknowledging his other ancestry would be foolish since looking at him you would obviously know he was mixed. However being mixed does not have to be his identity, or who he is, or how he identifies himself.

 In thinking of what the Navajo woman told me, and things I have been told by other people; I think about your story about your seven other grandparents that were European.  You seem to think that you must also identify with them or you would be disrespecting them, and I am guessing you also mean that by saying you are NDN is doing the same disrespect???

 Sorry but I don't see things that way. Sure it would be wrong to try and not acknowledge them and foolish since being mixed would obviously show in your appearance. However that does not mean you or anyone else must take on this or that identity because of being mixed. Especially in regards to topic like this which is about community and culture; the ties to it. Identity based on skin color or BQ is a European concept, like it or not. Sure it comes into play in protecting tribes from predators etc, but still the the fact remains that the concept is undeniably European.

I don't know if you consider yourself NDN or not, and it is not for me to judge. However if I knew you associated with other NDN's and were seen as NDN by an NDN community, even if it were not even Cherokee; I would consider you NDN regardless of your BQ or status. That is how I was taught to be by elders I was blessed to have in my life.

 What I see you saying often times is things that are very much the opposite,and that is what makes me wonder how much interaction you have with people off of the net.

Quote
Book knowledge? Think whatever you want, Rattle.

 Well when I see you say things on here that I take as more book then real life experience, what do you expect me to think??

 You seem to think that everyone on here owes you details about their lives at times, but you never really say much about yourself other then your ancestry and why you are not enrolled.

 This is while I have been attacked by you on several occasions with you trying to say how I am not NDN, and yet I have pointed out on just as many occasions that my family still resides in Choctaw country in Oklahoma and is seen as such.  That I live in central California, and am recognized as NDN by people here, and that I do contribute to the NDN community here; my contributions both by things I have helped do as well as money out of my own pocket I have contributed are known as well.

 As far as more of my thoughts about you only citing book things. I gave my arguments on pitfalls I see on words such as descendant, and in some regards even PODIA; including the pitfall of using them to say what a person is or is not. Though I might agree with a number of your opinions in regards to these terms, I often times see you being very rigid on the topic, and wonder how you can be so harsh when dealing with other people. It seems to me that you are so locked on the idea of hunting down exploiters etc at times that you might forget you are dealing with other human beings, many of which mean no harm.

 It's funny, maybe right now you consider yourself a descendant because you are not enrolled; yet I wonder if you would call yourself a Cherokee if you were enrolled? Does that piece of paper in your hand dictate who you are or who you have the right in your family to acknowledge and that acknowledgment of who they are having something to do with who you are??? I personally think not.

I personally don't consider you a PODIA or a descendant, and I could care less if you or your family was assimilated or not. I see you as a Cherokee whom comes from an assimilated family, if you want to learn cultural things to wipe away that assimilation then that is up to you. Of course if you do not see yourself as I see you, then that is your choice and my beliefs on the matter are of no consequence. I don't go by looks, books or paper.

 Another thing that makes me think of you and books is a constant argument you give me over BQ since I came here. What I always found odd about your arguments was that it was contradicting what I was taught by well known elders in my area.

 You see I was taught by an elder that when somebody is in a ceremony they are recognized by their NDN ancestors regardless of their BQ. This is the same thing if and when they cross over.

  Your argument was that they would be met by all of their ancestors regardless of race. Indeed you are right about this, but this debate between you and I was over identity and BQ. So in the context of that debate in which you were trying to pass judgment on others based on BQ, enrollment etc etc; I brought up the case of divinity, and you turned it right back into one about BQ.

  So yea, made me wonder about you, and still does....

Quote
I have never said you're not Indian unless you've experienced discrimination. Do not put words in my mouth. I think you're referring to another discussion we had here about whether people of very distant ancestry should be allowed to be enrolled or even call themselves Indian.

Perhaps maybe, I dunno.

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I said something to the effect that someone who is 1/64 and didn't grow up in their culture would not know what it is to be Indian.

 Yea true, but maybe I am wrong about you; just that you come across to me as somebody who bases NDN or not on a rigid set of rules and one of those is enrollment. Oddly enough if this is the case, then are all those people with super duper low BQ getting enrolled in the CNO NDN or not? I see most as just "paper NDN's" myself. Things like that is why I base who is NDN or not more on what the community and the more traditional people say regardless of what a tribal government has to say. Especially in the case of my may dis enrolled friends out here whom are victims of casino money greed.

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If they could pass for white, they would never have experienced discrimination; they probably wouldn't have to worry about diabetes, or even have chizzy elbows. I didn't say they weren't Indian unless they'd been discriminated against. Don't twist my words.

 Maybe in most cases you would probably be correct, but not always. I have seen people who were only 1/4, 1/8 look enough NDN to get treated like crap by whites, and then treated like crap by NDN's for being too white.

 Of course some of them who look too NDN to be considered white of low BQ just might decide to look into connecting to the people who's blood in their veins is the reason for being treated bad by whites and stumble to a place like here and get chaffed and criticized for even considering they were NDN due to lack of enough cultural awareness to consider themselves as such.

I guess we can just chalk that off to be a poor PODIA...sucks to be them no matter what they do.

 Also, I used to know a NDN girl in Arizona who was only like 1/8 white and the rest was Navajo. Ironically she was dying or may even be dead now due to a genetic disease that is not found in NDN populations since it was a disease mostly found in Caucasians. She was probably the only NDN to ever have that disease. So my point here is that genetic disease knows no BQ in either direction.

heh, since you like to accuse me of not being NDN or being a PODIA; I guess I will have to chalk the diabetes that has devastated most of my family off to some other reason huh ayes??

Quote
Rattle, when have you ever tried to "avoid a conflict" with me or anyone else? You live for the drama.

Hypocrite much????

 I find it odd how you accuse me of twisting your words, and yet you continue constantly make such statements about me.

 This behavior from you goes above and beyond twisting words, and actually goes into you speaking about events that you have zero knowledge of.

  What I seen you do time and time again is read links posted up on here concerning a conflict, and then coming back here making statements about myself and my friends based solely on those threads.

  Maybe it didn't occur to you that there was much more to all of that then just what you seen?

  Maybe it didn't occur to you that the events you only seen a snap shot of had been going on for years and were based on false accusations and attacks being done on a woman who did nothing wrong?

 Maybe it didn't occur to you that the woman being accused of those wrong things had her name cleared of all of that by the fighting that went down and how those defending her proved it.

 Maybe it didn't occur to you that some of those who were involved in making those accusation were sending me and others threats of violence because of it long after the fact until a lot of us and especially myself poked fun at them because of it.

 What I see on here is you always always always making statements about myself and others based on things you obviously only know one side of the story on.

 Then from there I feel as if you come here and tell lies about me when you make such comments, and then take issue when I possibly critique your positions. That my friend is hypocrisy.

 You are old enough to be my mother, and maybe even my grandmother. Taking that into consideration I would expect better from you. Instead I see you make comments about me, and attacks upon me based on things you don't even know about. Never once have you ever spoken to me about any of it, and yet you think because you and I have agreed on a thing or two that I am should respect you or whatever.

 Respect is earned and not given. I do not feel that you have treated me with respect in regards to many issues including those that deal with my own family in which two you know zilch about. So don't expect any from me until you do the same.

 I honestly feel you owe me an apology. I was defending people I loved from attacks, and yet for doing so you make all kinds of false statements about me without ever knowing the full story. Of course if that is how you are going to behave, then I want no friendship from you anyways.


*edited to fix a typo*
  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 07:39:16 pm by Rattlebone »

Offline Diana

  • Posts: 382
  • I Love YaBB 2!
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2009, 07:08:56 pm »
I also agree w/Earth, I'm sooo tired of these people who have weird obsessions or fetish's w/Indian people, who may or may not have somje minuscule or marginal Indian blood. I'm also tired of the emotional cripples coming here and complaining about emptiness in their lives all because of some real or imagined long lost Indian ancestor. You people need to get a grip on yourselves! Or seek some kind of counseling. Your lives are not empty because you can't join an Indian Tribe.


Lim lemtsh,


Diana

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2009, 07:10:10 pm »
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.




I do not think anything you had to say here was wrong. In fact I fully understand where you are coming from on things, especially when I read some of the things you say you have gone through.

 Regardless of the times when I do not agree with what you have to say, you are still somebody I admire, honor and respect.

 I would say you are one of the very few people that makes me want to continue to post in a battlefield like NDNZ.COM.

 It is always good to read your posts and get your perspectives no matter if I agree with you or not.

Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2009, 07:31:42 pm »
Rattlebone.  Thank you.  You have educated me today.  :)
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1423
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2009, 09:13:47 pm »
I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.




I do not think anything you had to say here was wrong. In fact I fully understand where you are coming from on things, especially when I read some of the things you say you have gone through.

 Regardless of the times when I do not agree with what you have to say, you are still somebody I admire, honor and respect.

 I would say you are one of the very few people that makes me want to continue to post in a battlefield like NDNZ.COM.

 It is always good to read your posts and get your perspectives no matter if I agree with you or not.

thank you I don't want anyone to think that I am saying bad thing just explaining
me.
My granddaughter said one day
grandma why do we have to be Indian?
I told her it is because we are born that way.
I said each person in this world was given a gift
and we as native people have a gift to protect
the land and that is what we must do. We come
from a long line of warriors who fought for our
homeland be proud of who you are.
I am sorry to say but being Indian is hard
In Spirit

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2009, 09:47:08 pm »
I read something in the one of the other threads that ties into all of this.  Whether or not you agree with this person or not, it should be know that this person is not the only person that I have heard this sort of attitude from.  This is a piece of the puzzle that fits into the whole issue.. And the attitude of this poster can be found amongst many Oklahoma Cherokees.  They may not tell you to your face if they meet you, but there is resentment that does linger.

So, even if you are of the small percentage of people that claim “Cherokee blood”, who isn’t enrolled in one of the three Federally Recognized  Cherokee Tribes, but REALLY ARE Cherokee by blood.  You might get the cold shoulder from some Cherokees in Oklahoma.  And this is why, and the post by “Keely” ties into all of it. 

Many Cherokees in Oklahoma feel that their ancestors suffered and made great sacrifices for the Cherokee Nation and for the Cherokee people.  For the most part, they walked the Trail of Tears, and stayed and helped build and support the Cherokee Nation through thick and thin, and in times of great adversary and animosity from the Federal Government and the dominant society.
Their ancestors didn’t “walk off the Trail”, their ancestors didn’t “do their best to blend in”,and for the most part, their ancestors were “proud to be Cherokee”.
 
So its really highly offensive to see the descendants of a handful of Cherokees that supposedly “stayed behind”, “walk off the trail”,etc  emerge out of the blue in the last 2 or 3 decades now claiming to be Cherokee and starting their own Fake Tribes.