Author Topic: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters  (Read 117887 times)

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #210 on: November 22, 2009, 05:39:41 pm »
The Myth of the Cherokee Grandma Part 2

My Cherokee grandma was a lot of things. She was a daughter, a mother, a grandmother and a great grandmother. She was a sister, an aunt, a niece and a friend. She was traditional, hard working and respected. Like I said, she was a lot of things, but there is one thing she was not. She was not a Cherokee Princess.

How many times have you heard someone proclaim their grandma was a Cherokee Princess? If you are like me, you have heard it too many times to count. Despite all the information that is now available explaining there was no such thing as a Cherokee Princess, people still continue to tell these stories. Usually, the "Cherokee Princess" has at least one and sometimes several greats in front of grandma, so that she is pretty far removed from the person telling you the story. Once again, they rarely know her name or any identifying details about her. All they know is she was a "princess".

When I hear these Cherokee Princess stories, I can't help but roll my eyes. One search on Google displays a number of resources that explains the myth of the Cherokee Princess. How can a person not know there was NO SUCH THING?

I have heard of a Cherokee Princess. Who was she?
The Cherokee Princess Myth
The Myth of the Cherokee Princess

I always wonder if the person telling the story has ever logically thought about what they are saying. Do they seriously believe if the Cherokee Nation had princesses, the names of those princesses would have been forgotten? I wonder why these people who believe they have a princess in their ancestry don't also claim they have a king or a chief or a queen too. Wouldn't the parents of the princess be part of their family? I also wonder why someone, somewhere, decided the real truth about their ancestors wasn't good enough, so they had to invent some mythological Cherokee Princess grandma to make things more interesting. Doesn't each of our ancestors, whether good or bad, have something unique and special about them that makes them worth remembering on their own merits?

My Cherokee Grandma was named Polly. She was born in Georgia in the early 1830's. She traveled with her parents when they relocated to Indian Territory before the forced removal. After losing her first husband in the Civil War, she married my grandpa. Together, they had three children and also raised my grandpa's niece who was left an orphan after the war. Grandma found herself a widow again when grandpa died. Despite this, she still raised three more children, two granddaughters and a grand nephew, who were motherless. From time to time, she would also take in other children who had no where else to go.

My Cherokee grandma was not a rich woman. She didn't live in a big house or own fancy things. By all standards, she was an average citizen of the Cherokee Nation. So, maybe I can't live under the illusion that somehow, I am more special, because my grandma was a Cherokee princess. But, at least my grandma was real. And I will take that over any fictitious princess any day of the week.

Those are my thoughts for the day.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter

Read more: http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/search/label/Wannabes#ixzz0Xbwp8mMM

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #211 on: November 22, 2009, 05:40:39 pm »

Looking for Cherokee Ancestry
Contrary to popular belief, it is not extremely difficult to find a Cherokee ancestor if there is one. The Cherokees are most likely the best documented group of people there is. Often times, it is easier to trace a Cherokee ancestor than it is to trace a white one.

From my experience, if you are truly of Cherokee descent, you can prove it. If you cannot prove it by conventional genealogical methods, then you need to explore the idea that you very well might not have Cherokee blood. I often read people's family stories on Cherokee genealogy boards and those stories tend be in direct contrast with real Cherokee history. One thing I would recommend for anyone wanting to research the possibility of a Cherokee ancestor is to study the true history of the Cherokees and then see if your family story makes sense.

Things to pay attention to would be WHERE your family was living when they supposedly were Cherokee and the YEAR they were living there. Also if your family signed up for "something", what exactly did they sign up for? Where were they living when they signed up for such things? Remember, if your family has any connection with the Cherokee Nation, they MUST have been residing in the nation at some point in time, whether it was Cherokee Nation East or Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory.

Also be aware that when the Dawes Roll and Guion Miller rolls were being done, lawyers traveled around the country and told people that, for a small fee, they could get them Indian land or money. They said the Cherokees had no records so they would not be able to disprove the people's claims. Those lawyers were lying and knew there was little to no chance those people would be approved, but they were just out to swindle unsuspecting people. This explains why many people applied for either the Dawes or Miller Roll and then were eventually rejected. Many people wrongly assume that, because their family made an application for Indian land or money, then they were Indian but just could not prove it. This is absolutely NOT true.

There were many people who were simply frauds who were out to try to get "a piece of the pie". They weren't Indians and they didn't care about the Indians. All they cared about was trying to get something for nothing and they saw the Indians as an easy target falsely believing the Indians had no records. Though not a pretty side of history, it is a true part of history.

If you don't agree with what I am saying, then either you need to learn more about true and accurate Cherokee history or you are just not willing to accept the truth. My only goal is to share the accurate history of the Cherokee Nation, but I realize, like the old saying says, "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink." I know there are people, who until their dying breath, will cling to their family stories no matter how outrageous they might be. If you are one of those people, all I can say is, you can claim whatever you want and you can believe whatever you want, but no matter what you claim, without proof, will never make you a Cherokee.

Those are my thoughts for the day.
Thank you for reading.

CC
The Granddaughter



Read more: http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/search/label/Wannabes#ixzz0Xbx9gSOj




Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #212 on: November 22, 2009, 05:42:59 pm »
Here's the link with a lot of other good articles pertaining to the subject.

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/pollys-granddaughter

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #213 on: November 22, 2009, 06:05:20 pm »
Quote from: Polly's grandaughter
Also be aware that when the Dawes Roll and Guion Miller rolls were being done, lawyers traveled around the country and told people that, for a small fee, they could get them Indian land or money. They said the Cherokees had no records so they would not be able to disprove the people's claims. Those lawyers were lying and knew there was little to no chance those people would be approved, but they were just out to swindle unsuspecting people. This explains why many people applied for either the Dawes or Miller Roll and then were eventually rejected. Many people wrongly assume that, because their family made an application for Indian land or money, then they were Indian but just could not prove it. This is absolutely NOT true.

There were many people who were simply frauds who were out to try to get "a piece of the pie". They weren't Indians and they didn't care about the Indians. All they cared about was trying to get something for nothing and they saw the Indians as an easy target falsely believing the Indians had no records.
(emphasis added)

Excellent points.

The more things change... the more the frauds stay the same.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #214 on: November 22, 2009, 09:53:20 pm »

Kathryn Nic Dhana said

Quote
The more things change... the more the frauds stay the same.

Good point Kathryn!!  and sooo true. 

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #215 on: November 23, 2009, 03:46:35 am »
cultrually they have issues

 Culture isn't part of the recognition process, and should not be. Seriously, how could the United States make culture a part of recognition when they are the ones responsible for it's demise???

 Furthermore you can not pass judgment on one nation due to the condition of culture still existing in your tribe versus what is in theirs.

 One must also realize though everyone native to here might be called Native American, Indian, etc etc; those are still blanket terms equivalent to similar words such as Asian, European etc.

 The reality as you already know, each tribe is it's own culture and nation. A people from one nation should not have a say in the recognition of another based on culture, when the fact is their culture is not even the same in the first place.

 Regardless if native nations here have always existed and been sovereign, if they expect to be taken seriously by Americans and the rest of the world, then they should act like other nations and not base membership solely on things based on culture and blood fractions. Especially when they wail against what Europeans have done here, and yet they perpetuate those European concepts by passing judgment on their own relations based on European concepts such as BQ, or wish to see another nation not recognized because their culture was wiped out by the Colonial European power who is responsible for it's destruction in the first place.


Offline earthw7

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #216 on: November 23, 2009, 03:57:10 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?



In Spirit

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #217 on: November 23, 2009, 06:50:03 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?





 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #218 on: November 23, 2009, 07:14:45 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?

This is not a comment on the Mashantucket Pequots, but about the exchange above:

I thought culture was the whole point... That it's not so much about BQ, it's about who your people are, how you were raised, who you interact with and rely on and who relies upon you, and what your deep-seated values and customs and beliefs are.

Leaving the government recognition or non-recognition based on BQ out of this for the moment, my understanding is that BQ does sometimes comes into it on an interpersonal level because of how much racism some people face as opposed to others, and what that does to a community. BQ can sometimes be an indicator of how someone was raised, because when you have outsiders marrying in, it does effect how the children are raised - what language they speak, what their values are, etc., even if the person who has married in does their best to adopt the ways of that culture. But again, that comes back to family culture and community more than DNA.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:50:13 am by Kathryn »

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #219 on: November 23, 2009, 07:34:30 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?






Quote
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.

 No, it should not be. If you went along those guidelines you would possibly be hurting your own people down the road as well.

 Their recognition like that of your tribe is based on the fact that they have always existed. Tribal sovereignty as recognized by the US government therefore would have to hinge on the fact that they have inherent sovereignty, which like your means that they were always sovereign.

 None of this has anything really to do with culture, but rather a nation and a people who have always existed and who have the right to continue to exist as a people.


Quote
The political structure
of euro,

 If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

 
Quote
who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.

 If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

Quote
Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

 I know you believe non tribal Mexicans to be NDN's because I have seen you say so in other places. The vast majority of them who are not tribal do not have the culture of their ancestors. So who are they??

Quote
No belief in the homeland,

 How can you possibly say what they believe or what they do not believe in to be making such a statement about them????

 Would it be right for somebody to say what you believe or what your people believe without ever speaking to them??

 
Quote
A belief in euro spirituality

 Exactly what would this be in your eyes? Prior to the spread of Christianity and other factors most Europeans were tribal, and not much different in a lot of ways then natives here.

 They had belief systems that could easily have been compared to ones here and seen very similar. They were for the most part stamped out by Christian zealots and are virtually non existent today.

 So if the Pequot were actually practicing such a spirituality today, it would be hard to not think it was a north American native one.


Quote
maybe even Christianity

 Are there no Christians amongst your people??

Quote
What makes a person?

  Probably those things  and experiences in their lives that make them who they are as well as those things passed down to them.

 You might want to consider such things and possibly give people more credit then you are here. It seems you are lumping people together based on those which have done wrong. That is not really all that different then those people who do bad things to you simply because you are NDN.

Quote
What make a tribal person?

 To me it would be a group of interrelated people that form a political entity.

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #220 on: November 23, 2009, 07:39:56 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?



 I believe it was about the Peqout. Blackwolf mentioned them, and then I took it as Earth commenting about them.

If I was wrong I apologize, but I did think a conversation about the Pequot had started up here.

I will concede in my life I have not been much of a Pequot supporter until I spoke to a boy of about 17 years of age who was an enrolled member, and talked to me for hours about wanting to learn more then he knew.

 I also ties to Pequot from St. David's Island in Bermuda. I know their are many who are trying to be more then just Peqout on paper, and are doing the best they can.

I am sure the same can be said about other recognized tribes with similar histories and conditions.  So I do not think Earth was being fair in her assessment of them, and saying they should not be recognized.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:50:47 am by Kathryn »

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #221 on: November 23, 2009, 09:57:28 pm »
Rattlebone said

Quote
If your tribe is recognized by the federal government, then it's political structure today is one modeled after the US or European structure. I have not heard of one single tribe in the United States today that has a tribal government that consists of traditional leaders and ways. All I have knowledge of is tribal governments who have constitutions and government structure that had to be accepted by the US government in order to be recognized.

You make a good point here Rattlebone.  The Cheokees never had a "Principle Chief" before European contact.  It was more like "Head men and Warriors" from various towns in Cherokee Territory. There was never a single Chief. 

I would agree that as far as "political citizenship" in a "Nation" is concerened, that this is a seperate thing from culture.  Should all Tribal Members and Citizens know their history and culture.  Abosolutly they should.  While I do agree that they ( Pequots ) DO have culture issues, I don't beleive that makes them less Pequot.  This Tribe in particular was/is located on the Eastern Seaboard.  And they were right in the crosshairs of European expansion and colinization.  One can only imagine what it must have been like for these people's ancestors back then. I look at them as people that brought their Tribe back from eventual complete assimilation and dissapearance from the face of the Earth.  Was the issue of having a casino part of them becoming Federally Recognized?  I don't know if it was or was not.  But even if it was in fact part of the equation.  A good thing has become of it.  And that is the renewal of a soverign people.  Yeah, maybe their not full bloods, and yeah, maybe they did lose a lot of their culture.  But considering the circumstances, they survived the best they could.  If they were just a bunch of podias with no concrete proof of who they were, I would feel diferently.  But they can document who they are as a people from Historic Times.

Many Tribes were affected culturally by European Contact.  The horse has been a part of the culture of Plains Tribes for centuries.  And colored beads were brought by Europeans.  Virtually every tribe in America has adapted in some way or the other.  Some were assimilated more like the Pequots, and some less so, but still all Tribes adapted the best they could.

 
Quote
If they can prove who they are back to historic times, then that means they are not frauds. If they were raised up by the mother to be of a certain people, as was passed down by generations before them; then who they are is just as valid as oral traditions passed down telling you who you are.

yes

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #222 on: December 05, 2009, 02:25:12 am »

I said this in reply 10 in regards to people who claimed Cherokee heritage on the census.

Quote
I think one of the censuses alone some years back showed it was over 500,000.

Its actually more then that.  These are the exact numbers I found on one of the US Census's Websites.  It shows 729,533 to be exact given by the US Census Bureau in the year 2000.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0036.pdf

Someone told me its probably over a million and I can see why if you take into consideration that there are most likely more people who claim Cherkoee Heritage that for what ever reason didn't report it on the census.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #223 on: December 17, 2009, 09:46:09 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??

Rattle, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is this about the Mashantucket Pequots?  If so, could you be more specific?



 I believe it was about the Peqout. Blackwolf mentioned them, and then I took it as Earth commenting about them.

If I was wrong I apologize, but I did think a conversation about the Pequot had started up here.

I will concede in my life I have not been much of a Pequot supporter until I spoke to a boy of about 17 years of age who was an enrolled member, and talked to me for hours about wanting to learn more then he knew.

 I also ties to Pequot from St. David's Island in Bermuda. I know their are many who are trying to be more then just Peqout on paper, and are doing the best they can.

I am sure the same can be said about other recognized tribes with similar histories and conditions.  So I do not think Earth was being fair in her assessment of them, and saying they should not be recognized.

I was talking about people and culture in general, I did not say they should not be recoginzed.
I said
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?

I am saying again culture is important, which include eye contact etc...
I am saying how your are raised in a Native communities with the belief
system is different, The ideals of life is different.
I was talking about the post on the cherokee princess post.
I have to include in here that Standing Rock established its
tribal council in 1919 and wrote their own constitution then in 1934
they refuse to adopt IRA except statement that were already in our
constitution. The government does not decide if the Lakota/Dakota/nakota
Nation exist we do.
Adaption of the tribes to what was brought in to our country is just
a part of being human.

I guess for many of us here in the Dakotas we don't have large groups
of people wanting to enroll as adults the people are enrolled at birth
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 12:49:44 am by Kathryn »
In Spirit

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1423
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters
« Reply #224 on: December 17, 2009, 09:50:03 pm »
I know that it is not but it should be because we would have
these people  who have no ideal who they are other than a
name making decision for the real people.
The ones who live their culture today.

Ok! I have to say this with no culture then who are they?

They would have to live in the euro culture
Accepting the family structure of the euros
father-mother- child, Accepting the language,
no knowledge of their words,The political structure
of euro, no knowledge of the tradition political structures
No belief in the homeland, A belief in euro spirituality or religion
maybe even christianity

What makes a person?
What make a tribal person?





 Have you ever spoken to a single person from that tribe to be making such statements about them, or are you just going by assumption based on your knowledge of their BQ which is not even an Indian concept??
what has this got to do with cherokee princess? where did i say BQ??
I was talking about culture.
the topic is:
Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters

« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 10:10:47 pm by earthw7 »
In Spirit