Author Topic: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation  (Read 17332 times)

Offline E.P. Grondine

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    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 05:41:53 am »
Hi EP Grondine

EP Grondine
Quote
PODIA Ed
(enough for diabetes and stroke, but not enough for the casino)

You have twice pointed out that you have enough BQ to get a stroke and diabetes but not a casino. This comment assumes your misfortune of having suffered a stroke and diabetes comes directly from your Native heritage   It seems you are trying to get people to feel sorry for you - and that somehow this is unfair because you are suffering afflictions from your native heritage, but you aren't getting any of the benifits..   The problem is, this doesn't seem honest, as your assumption your health problems are a consquence of having some Native blood is doubtful. Lots of people who are purely of European origins also have strokes and develope diabetes.

It was meant to be a joke. I seem to have also inherited a strange sense of humor as well. I am trying to lighten up a serious problem.

What you say is true, and I certainly didn't take the necessary precautions beforehand, but diabetes hit all my aunts and uncles on my grandmother's side of the family as well, and I always warn other PODIA to watch out for it.

Quote
If PODIA, if they were to call themselves a "Band" instead of a tribe, would that be proper, in your opinion? What kind of word would be best for a heritage group?

There is lots of threads talking about what makes a tribe a tribe , and you already started a thread asking if it would be OK if people who are PODIAs could call their heritage group an Indian band,

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2387.0

Everybody told you NO ... And here you are, diverting a thread about what appears to be a bogus Shawnee claim, asking the same question again. Apparently really wanting a different answer.

Actually, I am hoping that many of the different peoples out there will come up with some kind of solutions for these problems generally. I don't have a clue as to what terms they will choose to use, or how they will handle the situation.
You may think of it as PODIA, but I'm liking the term the "stranded".
 
 
Do you really think people are going to say - "Oh!!! you have diabetes and Shawnee ancestry but no casino and you can't even be a member of an Indian band or get bonafide Shawnee teachings in your own community. That is so not fair!!! Of course it's OK for you and whoever else has some Shawnee descent to get together and create a heritage group and call it a band."

This seems to me to be obviously silly ....
Sorry to further divert this thread by responding to this ...   

No, I jut hope they have a laugh and will remember to watch out.

I just have a few questions, and a few observations. IF the Eastern, Loyal and Absentee had of figured out what to do then Jerry Pope never would have been able to pull off his fraud. And these current groups may not have shown up.

And IF the CNO figured out what to do, then others like him would not continue to pop up on the Cherokee side.

This may sound strange to you, but I have always wondered why the Cherokee don't just keep their lands in Oklahoma for the property, but return to their original lands in the East. This goes for other peoples as well.

As far as diverting the thread, my initial question was what type of individuals these particular people are. And then it led to all this... I have caught up with the post about the topic on etcetera,and will watch it there.

But I am still curious as to what motivated these particular individuals.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 05:52:48 am by E.P. Grondine »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 05:46:26 am »

Oh I see now.. Don Rankin started that group in Alabama... figures, he has been a wannabe for a long, long time, and now has learned how to get himself recognized... He used to live in Ohio for many, many years... He even tried to start a "tribe" and named them "Eastern Loyal Shawnee" then used my family names as his "support" to the point, we actually got his website removed. He had photos of my family on his site, he had our names on there, and he did it all without our permission.

Well, this just goes to show, you can get a group of skunks State recognition as a Indian tribe in the state of Alabama... and another reason I think state recognition is nothing more than a joke.

That was a truly disgusting act on his part.

Offline taraverti

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 06:01:54 am »
replied to in other thread
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 06:21:17 am by taraverti »

Offline bls926

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 05:01:53 am »
Aren't the Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation one and the same?
Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be chief of both?

Offline Don Naconna

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 03:03:51 pm »
This thread should be moved to fraud as well as the Renz thread...

Offline Keely

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 10:26:49 pm »
Actually, the Shawnee people are not scattered. There are only three tribes of Shawnee, the Eastern, Absentee and the Shawnee of Oklahoma. There are no other tribes of Shawnee.

The group of "Morning Star" are out of Shelby, Ohio. The Chaliawa are just people who live around the Ohio area. Both groups are rather confused as to what they claim they are.

Why did I stay with the CNO? The answer is quite simple, there are too many problems within the Shawnee Nation, too much strife. It does not matter which tribe I am enrolled with, I am still Shawnee. My people have been enrolled with the Cherokee Nation for over 100 years... and when the Shawnee tribe council can put their people first and not their own selfish needs, then I would consider to change membership... It is very long, and detailed as to what has happend to many Shawnee people when they moved their membership that I refuse to do this to my family. Futher, there are Elders who feel I am right in my decission and to why I made my decission.

Thanks for the heads-up on these people, but are they lost PODIA, entire fraudsters like Jerry Pope, or just really confused people looking for a Native American solution to their confusion? Would you provide some more details please? It would look that a lot of this may be the consequences of Jerry Pope's fraud.

If PODIA, if they were to call themselves a "Band" instead of a tribe, would that be proper, in your opinion? What kind of word would be best for a heritage group? I attended the Ohio Native Ancestry Association powwow - in your opinion, is that an acceptable name for PODIA heritage groups? A Native Ancestry Association?

Your decision and comments reflect what I was saying - the Shawnee are scattered, leadership in dis-array.

You mentioned that your ancestors received refuge with the Cherokee, and from what you said about the Elders my guess is that you received proper Cherokee teaching.

You only mentioned the groups recognized by the US government. Part of Tecumseh's followers received refuge with the Ojibwe in Canada after the Battle of the Thames. Now they think of themselves as Shawnee, and I would think that they are.

I understand that the Piqua group is recognized by the state of Alabama. Your thinking on this, please.


You want my opinion on Alabama State Recognition?? I think all State recognition is nothing more than a joke... seems anyone can get recognition in some states. I think State recogition should be ended...

People who have to go out and make stuff up are insulting their true ancestors.. shame shame.

I dont know what a PODIA is, but if it refers to the claims tht people left the trail during removal, they dont know anything about the removals, the records kept before, during and after removal, and IF anyone did leave the tribe, then it is viewed as turning their backs on the people, and they are no longer considered a member of that Nation. They abandoned their people for them to suffer... what a selfish act that would have been... they made a choice for themselves and their future generations.. they are not Indian.

Offline Keely

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 10:30:06 pm »
"I just have a few questions, and a few observations. IF the Eastern, Loyal and Absentee had of figured out what to do then Jerry Pope never would have been able to pull off his fraud. And these current groups may not have shown up. "

What? Are you serious?? The more I read of your posts, the less sense you make... it has become obvious to me that you know nothing about the Shawnee or the Cherokee people...


Offline Keely

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 10:32:13 pm »
Aren't the Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation one and the same?
Doesn't Walter Renz claim to be chief of both?


I dont know, in some places it does appear he claims the two are the same, but in other writings of his he claims they are separate.. I understand this Renz guy may not have gotten to the 8th grade in school, and when reading his writings it is quite possible that what I was told of his education is clearly possible.

Offline Keely

  • Posts: 103
Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:39:52 pm »
Wow! Lots of assumptions there, Momma P! When I read that statement, I just thought it was a joke! (that was my assumption)

I do remember the thread about "band" not being an appropriate name for a heritage group, though.

Edited to add:

EP. specifically asked Keely for her opinion though. She had not responded to the other thread.



I dont have time to respond to all threads or even read them... My daughter in law has been expecting and finally had the baby on Tuesday.. healthy and handsome guy he is... so I am tired, my feet hurt, back hurts.. and dealing with wannabes is giving me a headache...


Offline LittleOldMan

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2009, 11:49:29 pm »
Keely:  I can readily accept that you disagree with the concept of State Tribes.  May I pose the question in this manner.  How would you advise someone who has Indian ancestors but can not due to BQ or their not being on the Dawes roll, speaking Cherokee here, honor or show respect to that part of their heritage.  Are there any associations available that you know of where they without having to join a State Tribe can accomplish a reconnection to their past and relearn their ancestor's culture?  Degadageyusesdi  "LittleOldMan"  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:04:15 am by LittleOldMan »
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline Keely

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2009, 04:09:11 am »
Keely:  I can readily accept that you disagree with the concept of State Tribes.  May I pose the question in this manner.  How would you advise someone who has Indian ancestors but can not due to BQ or their not being on the Dawes roll, speaking Cherokee here, honor or show respect to that part of their heritage.  Are there any associations available that you know of where they without having to join a State Tribe can accomplish a reconnection to their past and relearn their ancestor's culture?  Degadageusesdi  "LittleOldMan" 

The CNO has no BQ requirments, putting that aside, if a person has no ancestors on the Dawes, yet wish to honor their ancestors, they need to take a trip to Tahlequah during the Cherokee Nation Festival (I think that is what it is called) there is much to be learned and be able to partake in even if one is not Indian. If a person joins a "state tribe" or just one of those groups who are making claims, this tells me they dont know the culture, or the right ways of doing things, they are trying to copy what they have seen, read or heard... and thats not right, the best place to go is to the real people, people you know are real... I have given this advice to others who claim Shawnee but cant prove it... and when these people have delt with fakes, frauds, and wannabes, their eyes are always opened when they go to the real people.
One does not have to wait for the festival, anytime a person can go to Tahlequah, there are plenty of things to do and go to learn of the Cherokee people. But I jsut think that the festival is the best time because there is more to do see and partake in.

JMHO

Offline Keely

  • Posts: 103
Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2009, 04:13:56 am »
PS....

I want to tell you that I have the utmost respect for those who do take the time and go to the real tribe to learn. They have always come out with a understanding that cannot be taught, it has to be experianced. In physical experiance does one come to a true meaning and feeling that what they have learned is not right, and with that they learn respect for what no one can ever put into words. Watch this from you tube... this is a pretty darn good thing that the Cherokee Nation put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp7Z4eiEuaw

Offline E.P. Grondine

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    • Man and Impact in the Americas
Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2009, 04:19:48 am »
"I just have a few questions, and a few observations. IF the Eastern, Loyal and Absentee had of figured out what to do then Jerry Pope never would have been able to pull off his fraud. And these current groups may not have shown up. "

What? Are you serious??

Yes. You mentioned the Cherokee festival below; did the leaders of the Shawnee ever consider anything similar? There's a CNO, is there any SNO?
Were the Shawnee leaders ever able to sit down together with each other and discuss these things at all?

The more I read of your posts, the less sense you make...

I am probably not making the thoughts clear. My apologies; I do as best I can now.

Quote from: Keely link=topic=2422.msg19997#msg19997
date=1257373806
it has become obvious to me that you know nothing about the Shawnee or the Cherokee people...

I see where you've been under great stress, and congratulations on your new grandson.

The discussion of this over on etcetera is probably a better place.



« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 04:28:31 am by E.P. Grondine »

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2009, 06:26:41 am »
Quote
One does not have to wait for the festival, anytime a person can go to Tahlequah, there are plenty of things to do and go to learn of the Cherokee people. But I jsut think that the festival is the best time because there is more to do see and partake in.

Good advice Keely.  I always tell people to visit the Cherokee Nation and to get their knowlege from real Cherokees.  Not these fake State Recognzied Tribes.  These State Recognized Tribes are nothing but a disgrace, and are disrespect to the Cherokee people. 

And if you do go to the Cheorkee Nation for the Holiday or whatever, please go in a humble way.  A few years ago there were a couple of clowns dressed up with buckskin and spears walking around during the National Holiday.  I think they were from one of them fake Alabama State Recognized Tribes.  I know it pis$^$ off a lot of people including myself.  Dealing with all these Wannabees gives me a headache too.   

Offline wolfhawaii

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Re: Morning Star Shawnee and Chaliawa Nation
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2009, 06:39:46 am »

And if you do go to the Cheorkee Nation for the Holiday or whatever, please go in a humble way.  A few years ago there were a couple of clowns dressed up with buckskin and spears walking around during the National Holiday.  I think they were from one of them fake Alabama State Recognized Tribes.  I know it pis$^$ off a lot of people including myself.  Dealing with all these Wannabees gives me a headache too.   

I heard about this when i was over for a visit in September; all the tourists thought they were "real Cherokees" and taking their photos......very sad. This is a good example of how not to act, and the kind of thing that makes it harder for others to learn in a respectful way. I also heard about a couple of women who came to a ceremonial grounds and acted up.....seems these kind of misguided individuals are becoming bolder as time passes.