Author Topic: Echota Cherokee  (Read 121650 times)

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2009, 10:47:05 pm »
Don't need to right now. 


Rattlebone said this.
Quote
You seem to like to compare apples to oranges, and because they are both fruit you declare them the same thing.

 What the EBC did, or what dragging canoe did is not the same thing as maybe some NDN person leaving their tribe over a hundred years ago or something like that, and then their descendant today joining up with somebody with a similar family story thinking they are NDN and trying to form a tribe.

 It just doesn't work that way.

So posting something by someone that twisted the facts of the Thousands of NDNs that stayed behind, down to "Well,, maybe there was only ONE disgruntled NDN that stayed behind" really makes your point. Well done sir.

The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians are the decendantes of a fairly large population of Cherokees( over a thousand ) who stayed behind during the Trail of Tears as opposed to the realatively few people who stayed behind in Alabama.  And they had a continous existance as a Tribal Goverment and people.  And had legal dealings with the US goverment as a united people.  And they did not do their best to blend in to the dominant society and give up being Cherkoee. And kept up Cheorkee traditions and culture.

Now didn't you just say that the REAL Government was in Ok. So how is it that the EB can do this and not some other group?  Damn son ,,, make up your mind,,, Which is it?

Oh yea,,, Posting CNO talking points about some “Northern Cherokee Nation of Missouri and Arkansas.” well as this is a thread about the Echota Tribe ,,,Well,  that didn't really help you either. But keep trying,,,

OK, it's really simple. The State of Alabama says that they have proven themselves to be a REAL Tribe. your job is to prove that they are not. On you mark, Get set, GO,,,,, (And try to stay on topic this time... )


 Paul,

 Let me put things to you from a personal experience of mine.

 By blood I am Choctaw and Cherokee, but most just know me as a Choctaw since I was raised up with my identity as a Choctaw. Both of my Choctaw and Cherokee blood and ancestors is proven and traceable.  However my great great grandmother's are in fact Eastern Band of Cherokee that did not stick around with those who would be considered part of the EBC today. Now they did have family of course that had removed to what is now Oklahoma. So later in her life she decided to go to Indian territory and live near them. Then later she moved to East Texas, and that prevented her from being enrolled as far as I know.

 Now here is the kicker with this story Paul. She is not some person that was born sooo long ago that nobody knew her. She was born in 1869 and died in the 1950's. On top of this all she was alive during the time my father was alive, and she is the one who raided my still living grandmother. I know first hand accounts and stories about her from my grandmother, whom as I have already mentioned, was in fact raised by her. I was told stories how she would go in the back yard and pick what my grandmother jokingly calls "weeds" and would cook them for dinner. This was much to the dismay of my grandmother when she was a kid. I know that she was delighted when her kids and grand kids would give birth to a dark skinned person baby. So she is not some far distant person in the past of my family, but rather somebody who because of stories about her I almost felt like I knew her in person. Sadly I was born a couple decades after she had already passed.

I also need to point out to you that she was no thin blood or low BQ person. She was 5/8's Cherokee by blood, and her husband who of course was my gg grandfather was 1/4 blood. He however was killed in the early 1900's when his horses trampled him when they had been startled by some bee's he was carrying on his wagon.

 As I have pointed out already, I do have government documents going all the way back to the 1700's up until today to prove everything I have said here. On top of this, as I have also pointed out, these are people that were alive in times that those alive today actually knew them. My grandmother is a very sharp women for being in her 80's and you would think she was more like in her 60's if you met her. So the point being her mind is still very sharp and she can pass down things word of mouth about our family very well. This is true of her sisters and brothers whom are alive and of course my aunts and uncles. This is on top of how I would spend the summers with my great grandfather, whom naturally was the son of this gg grandmother I am telling you about.

  My family in Oklahoma is recognized by the the Choctaw community as being Choctaw/Cherokee. Now I do live in California, but the NDN's out here know and recognize me to be NDN as well. The local elders here took me in when I was younger I learned from them, even if I was not from their people. So like my family I am known by Indians to be the Indian I say I am. However that does not give me the right to find people with similar stories and family backgrounds; then go form our own Cherokee tribe because for whatever reasons our families did not or chose not to enroll. Things just don't work that way, and they should not be that way.

 I do recognize the two Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, and the the EBC to be family and relations since we carry the same blood and I am related to them by blood. I do consider myself to be a Choctaw/Cherokee person as I have now pointed out here many many times. However that does not give me or anyone else the right to form our own tribe. To do so I feel is disrespecting the Cherokee Nation, and treating them and their sovereignty as nothing more then some heritage club. That to me would be performing an abomination, and not only spitting on their sovereignty, but possibly doing things that could jeopardize it.

  The Cherokee, Lakota, Choctaw ect are not just some heritage groups. They are a people and a nation just as real as the United States or any other nation. In fact of course we have our own distinct cultures and languages, which I do not feel the United States does. So nobody should be able to start their own "cherokee Nation" anymore then somebody can move to Canada and start some mini United States.

 Enrollment does not make one an Indian, and neither will creating some bogus tribe. Just like being Indian is not just something you feel in your heart. To me it's about being recognized by your people and other Indians as one. To live by the ways and values of your people. Creating some tribe based on some far off distant ancestor does none of that, and is dangerous to real NDN nations, and bogus from the get go.

If these Echota people feel they are NDN and it is something important to them and their identities that is fine. They should be happy with that, and live that proudly without stepping over boundaries they have no right to cross.

 Another thing to keep in mind is that there are some people that are enrolled, but know not their traditions and don't even care. Some dont have any connection to the people they are enrolled with past their enrollment. Some of these are full blooded or close to it, but most are mixed and you would just think they are black or white if you seen them. To me they are just "paper Indians," and not really Indian at all. You take away that enrollment card, and they are just another white or black person. Still the their tribal governments view them as relations and tribal members. So in respecting the sovereignty of those nations, those people must be viewed at least politically as NDN.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2009, 10:50:18 pm »

OK, it's really simple. The State of Alabama says that they have proven themselves to be a REAL Tribe. your job is to prove that they are not. On you mark, Get set, GO,,,


Removed the color, black's easier on my tired old eyes.

This thread you should take a look at.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2192.0

The short version is...most states don't have any good standards for recognition, lots of phony groups abuse this lack of standards, and under the US Constitution recognition is a federal matter of nation to nation.


@ educatedindian,
Sorry for stressing you eyes.

The thread link that you posted here was the starting point of this thread, but spun off to it's own thread here.

As for State standards. Yes there are some states that have some very loose standards, but as can be seen from the post #52 of LittleOldMan I think that Alabama has some rather impressive standards. but that won't mean anything to those who already feel that no matter who the Tribe is, if they are not on the fed list their Fake. No way, No how, No matter what.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 11:35:08 pm by Paul123 »

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #92 on: September 30, 2009, 11:21:16 pm »
There were a couple of Cherokee Rolls taken after the Trail of Tears for Cherokees residing East of the Mississippi.  I don't know how many Cherokees may have been excluded from these rolls, nor do I know how many of these Cherokees returned to the Eastern Band.  But here they are.

The Siler Roll 1851 - This is a list of 1700+ Cherokees living East of the Mississippi who were entitiled to a per capita payment pursurant to an Act of Congress.  I'm assuming this includes the ancestors of the Eastern Band.  I couldn't find it online though.


The Chapman Roll 1852 - This was the payment roll based on the Siler Roll.  


http://www.tngennet.org/cherokee_by_blood/chapman.htm


Alabama section of Chapman Roll which shows 4 counties in Alabama and I counted about 69 people.
http://www.tngennet.org/cherokee_by_blood/chapal.htm#Jackson


BW,
Thanks for the links,,,,Way cool,,,  that was a gold mine for my family tree research. I have found 3 full families and about 4 individual people on those rolls. You wouldn't happen to have a link to the Henderson rolls would you? I can't seem to find a list of names for it like this roll you posted has?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 11:30:22 pm by Paul123 »

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2009, 12:01:26 am »


 Paul,

 Let me put things to you from a personal experience of mine.

 By blood I am Choctaw and Cherokee, but most just know me as a Choctaw since I was raised up with my identity as a Choctaw. Both of my Choctaw and Cherokee blood and ancestors is proven and traceable.  However my great great grandmother's are in fact Eastern Band of Cherokee that did not stick around with those who would be considered part of the EBC today. Now they did have family of course that had removed to what is now Oklahoma. So later in her life she decided to go to Indian territory and live near them. Then later she moved to East Texas, and that prevented her from being enrolled as far as I know.

 Now here is the kicker with this story Paul. She is not some person that was born sooo long ago that nobody knew her. She was born in 1869 and died in the 1950's. On top of this all she was alive during the time my father was alive, and she is the one who raided my still living grandmother. I know first hand accounts and stories about her from my grandmother, whom as I have already mentioned, was in fact raised by her. I was told stories how she would go in the back yard and pick what my grandmother jokingly calls "weeds" and would cook them for dinner. This was much to the dismay of my grandmother when she was a kid. I know that she was delighted when her kids and grand kids would give birth to a dark skinned person baby. So she is not some far distant person in the past of my family, but rather somebody who because of stories about her I almost felt like I knew her in person. Sadly I was born a couple decades after she had already passed.

I also need to point out to you that she was no thin blood or low BQ person. She was 5/8's Cherokee by blood, and her husband who of course was my gg grandfather was 1/4 blood. He however was killed in the early 1900's when his horses trampled him when they had been startled by some bee's he was carrying on his wagon.

 As I have pointed out already, I do have government documents going all the way back to the 1700's up until today to prove everything I have said here. On top of this, as I have also pointed out, these are people that were alive in times that those alive today actually knew them. My grandmother is a very sharp women for being in her 80's and you would think she was more like in her 60's if you met her. So the point being her mind is still very sharp and she can pass down things word of mouth about our family very well. This is true of her sisters and brothers whom are alive and of course my aunts and uncles. This is on top of how I would spend the summers with my great grandfather, whom naturally was the son of this gg grandmother I am telling you about.

  My family in Oklahoma is recognized by the the Choctaw community as being Choctaw/Cherokee. Now I do live in California, but the NDN's out here know and recognize me to be NDN as well. The local elders here took me in when I was younger I learned from them, even if I was not from their people. So like my family I am known by Indians to be the Indian I say I am. However that does not give me the right to find people with similar stories and family backgrounds; then go form our own Cherokee tribe because for whatever reasons our families did not or chose not to enroll. Things just don't work that way, and they should not be that way.

 I do recognize the two Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, and the the EBC to be family and relations since we carry the same blood and I am related to them by blood. I do consider myself to be a Choctaw/Cherokee person as I have now pointed out here many many times. However that does not give me or anyone else the right to form our own tribe. To do so I feel is disrespecting the Cherokee Nation, and treating them and their sovereignty as nothing more then some heritage club. That to me would be performing an abomination, and not only spitting on their sovereignty, but possibly doing things that could jeopardize it.

  The Cherokee, Lakota, Choctaw ect are not just some heritage groups. They are a people and a nation just as real as the United States or any other nation. In fact of course we have our own distinct cultures and languages, which I do not feel the United States does. So nobody should be able to start their own "cherokee Nation" anymore then somebody can move to Canada and start some mini United States.

 Enrollment does not make one an Indian, and neither will creating some bogus tribe. Just like being Indian is not just something you feel in your heart. To me it's about being recognized by your people and other Indians as one. To live by the ways and values of your people. Creating some tribe based on some far off distant ancestor does none of that, and is dangerous to real NDN nations, and bogus from the get go.

If these Echota people feel they are NDN and it is something important to them and their identities that is fine. They should be happy with that, and live that proudly without stepping over boundaries they have no right to cross.

 Another thing to keep in mind is that there are some people that are enrolled, but know not their traditions and don't even care. Some dont have any connection to the people they are enrolled with past their enrollment. Some of these are full blooded or close to it, but most are mixed and you would just think they are black or white if you seen them. To me they are just "paper Indians," and not really Indian at all. You take away that enrollment card, and they are just another white or black person. Still the their tribal governments view them as relations and tribal members. So in respecting the sovereignty of those nations, those people must be viewed at least politically as NDN.


If you change your Choctaw to my Creek and your Texas for my Alabama and your great great grandmother's death date to my great  Grandmother in 1925 you have written my family's story too. And yes I too have some "paper Indians" in the family in the CNO too. along with some that are not so "paper". Where the BIG difference comes in is that I also have some family in the Echota Tribe. 

As for me I seem to see the legitimacy of all Fed listed Tribes and the State Tribes where the State or the Tribe has well defined criterion. Some say that you can't make a Tribe. but it seems to me that they already have. And there isn't anything that can be done about it (other than to bitch and moan). The Task Force seems to have done plenty of this. to the point where members of other tribes are wondering if it isn't doing more harm than good. 

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2009, 01:03:12 am »
If you change your Choctaw to my Creek and your Texas for my Alabama and your great great grandmother's death date to my great  Grandmother in 1925 you have written my family's story too.

... but Paul, this is what you said about your family history:
I have only in the past year began to investigate my NDN heritage. And even less time investigating the Echotas . I was raised white, so until an NDN community (either one) accepts me, I will always be white, no matter what a card says.
... ... ...
It's not that they (NDN's) don't accept me now, it's that they don't even know who I am.
[emphases added]

That is a very different story than what Rattlebone posted.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:24:12 am by Kathryn »

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2009, 01:32:35 am »


 Paul,

 Let me put things to you from a personal experience of mine.

 By blood I am Choctaw and Cherokee, but most just know me as a Choctaw since I was raised up with my identity as a Choctaw. Both of my Choctaw and Cherokee blood and ancestors is proven and traceable.  However my great great grandmother's are in fact Eastern Band of Cherokee that did not stick around with those who would be considered part of the EBC today. Now they did have family of course that had removed to what is now Oklahoma. So later in her life she decided to go to Indian territory and live near them. Then later she moved to East Texas, and that prevented her from being enrolled as far as I know.

 Now here is the kicker with this story Paul. She is not some person that was born sooo long ago that nobody knew her. She was born in 1869 and died in the 1950's. On top of this all she was alive during the time my father was alive, and she is the one who raided my still living grandmother. I know first hand accounts and stories about her from my grandmother, whom as I have already mentioned, was in fact raised by her. I was told stories how she would go in the back yard and pick what my grandmother jokingly calls "weeds" and would cook them for dinner. This was much to the dismay of my grandmother when she was a kid. I know that she was delighted when her kids and grand kids would give birth to a dark skinned person baby. So she is not some far distant person in the past of my family, but rather somebody who because of stories about her I almost felt like I knew her in person. Sadly I was born a couple decades after she had already passed.

I also need to point out to you that she was no thin blood or low BQ person. She was 5/8's Cherokee by blood, and her husband who of course was my gg grandfather was 1/4 blood. He however was killed in the early 1900's when his horses trampled him when they had been startled by some bee's he was carrying on his wagon.

 As I have pointed out already, I do have government documents going all the way back to the 1700's up until today to prove everything I have said here. On top of this, as I have also pointed out, these are people that were alive in times that those alive today actually knew them. My grandmother is a very sharp women for being in her 80's and you would think she was more like in her 60's if you met her. So the point being her mind is still very sharp and she can pass down things word of mouth about our family very well. This is true of her sisters and brothers whom are alive and of course my aunts and uncles. This is on top of how I would spend the summers with my great grandfather, whom naturally was the son of this gg grandmother I am telling you about.

  My family in Oklahoma is recognized by the the Choctaw community as being Choctaw/Cherokee. Now I do live in California, but the NDN's out here know and recognize me to be NDN as well. The local elders here took me in when I was younger I learned from them, even if I was not from their people. So like my family I am known by Indians to be the Indian I say I am. However that does not give me the right to find people with similar stories and family backgrounds; then go form our own Cherokee tribe because for whatever reasons our families did not or chose not to enroll. Things just don't work that way, and they should not be that way.

 I do recognize the two Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, and the the EBC to be family and relations since we carry the same blood and I am related to them by blood. I do consider myself to be a Choctaw/Cherokee person as I have now pointed out here many many times. However that does not give me or anyone else the right to form our own tribe. To do so I feel is disrespecting the Cherokee Nation, and treating them and their sovereignty as nothing more then some heritage club. That to me would be performing an abomination, and not only spitting on their sovereignty, but possibly doing things that could jeopardize it.

  The Cherokee, Lakota, Choctaw ect are not just some heritage groups. They are a people and a nation just as real as the United States or any other nation. In fact of course we have our own distinct cultures and languages, which I do not feel the United States does. So nobody should be able to start their own "cherokee Nation" anymore then somebody can move to Canada and start some mini United States.

 Enrollment does not make one an Indian, and neither will creating some bogus tribe. Just like being Indian is not just something you feel in your heart. To me it's about being recognized by your people and other Indians as one. To live by the ways and values of your people. Creating some tribe based on some far off distant ancestor does none of that, and is dangerous to real NDN nations, and bogus from the get go.

If these Echota people feel they are NDN and it is something important to them and their identities that is fine. They should be happy with that, and live that proudly without stepping over boundaries they have no right to cross.

 Another thing to keep in mind is that there are some people that are enrolled, but know not their traditions and don't even care. Some dont have any connection to the people they are enrolled with past their enrollment. Some of these are full blooded or close to it, but most are mixed and you would just think they are black or white if you seen them. To me they are just "paper Indians," and not really Indian at all. You take away that enrollment card, and they are just another white or black person. Still the their tribal governments view them as relations and tribal members. So in respecting the sovereignty of those nations, those people must be viewed at least politically as NDN.


If you change your Choctaw to my Creek and your Texas for my Alabama and your great great grandmother's death date to my great  Grandmother in 1925 you have written my family's story too. And yes I too have some "paper Indians" in the family in the CNO too. along with some that are not so "paper". Where the BIG difference comes in is that I also have some family in the Echota Tribe. 

As for me I seem to see the legitimacy of all Fed listed Tribes and the State Tribes where the State or the Tribe has well defined criterion. Some say that you can't make a Tribe. but it seems to me that they already have. And there isn't anything that can be done about it (other than to bitch and moan). The Task Force seems to have done plenty of this. to the point where members of other tribes are wondering if it isn't doing more harm than good. 


 The problem here is not if those in Echota have the Indian blood they claim to or not. Nor is it that I am saying I don't think they are Cherokee because they might be PODIA etc.

 The issue for me is that a lot of people start these tribes for grants, federal benefits etc that are earmarked for NDN people. The problem here is that some that claim to be NDN don't have even the proof you and I say we similarly have in common.

 So in turn this is opening a possible floodgate for those who don't have the proof you or I do, and enabling them to take money that should go towards more full blooded people such as those on Pine Ridge who have not choice to be anything but NDN and live through great hardships because of it. Heck there is even bad poverty in the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, and it is within the members who are full blooded and close to it, and not those who are low BQ and could pass for white or black.

 So my point is there is nothing wrong with these Echota people saying they are Indian anymore then you or I. In this case I have proof of my claims and so do you. Regardless I am against people forming their own tribes.

 You have to look past personal pride here and look at the bigger picture, and that bigger picture would be protecting those who are without doubt NDN. When you do that, I feel you are thinking more in a community mindset instead just "self," and thinking on part of the community instead of self is very much an NDN way to be.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2009, 02:03:38 am »
That would be like saying that all of those Jewish people and their descendants that were rounded up and sent to Hitler's death camps are Jewish and all the rest of you are not. If your family managed to escape the roundup that's great but by doing so they gave up their descendants rights.

At the risk of getting all Godwiny: The Diasporic Jews who have not assimilated have a vibrant, living culture. They have, yes, "tribal" ways of determining who is and isn't Jewish. Those of us with a distant ancestor or two who married in to families of other ethnicities, and took on their traditions and culture, are simply not Jews.

The analogy to what (it seems to me) you are advocating is that people whose family tree includes an assimilated Jewish Great-Great Grandfather should declare themselves Jewish, declare that their county in Indiana or Iowa is now a Jewish state, call it something like Is-Real, declare themselves Rabbis and elect a Prime Minister of Is-Real... even though all of them were raised Baptist, don't know any Hebrew or Yiddish beyond "kvetch" and "chutzpah", and also all happen to be pale people with blonde hair and blue eyes who have never heard of the foods ethnic Jews eat, or heard the songs they know, and who have never experienced one second of anti-semitism in their lives, and wouldn't recognize it if they did.

And maybe while they're at it, the people of Is-Real should also start performing their ideas of Islamic ceremonies. Because they're all "desert peoples", you know. And build a temple even though they've never been to one themselves.

And then if ethnic Jews find the people's behaviour disturbing... cry "oppression!"

I'm sorry if this seems insensitive or too broad a comparison to you, and maybe I'm joking about this too much, but really, that's the apt Jewish comparison to me. It's reached that level of absurdity. Maybe if the (Newage version of) Kabbalah craze had lasted longer, we would see more of this sort of stuff. Hell, Madonna decided to give herself a "Jewish" name. And most people realized how absurd that was... maybe because ethnic Jews are more real to them than ethnic NDNs.

Though (and I can't believe I'm saying this), in Madonna's defense, having lived in New York City, she probably has had more exposure to living Jewish culture than most of these heritage groups have had to any living NDN cultures.

Offline Don Naconna

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2009, 01:00:01 pm »
The real difference is that Judaism is a religion and anyone can convert, although some Jewish groups don't accept conversion, almost all do. My ex wife was half Jewish and half WASP . She remarried a Jewish man but wasn't considered to actually be Jewish because her mother was a Christian, although she raised her son as a Jew. Our son was raised by my second wife who, like me is a non believer. We did raise him reaching him about all religions including his Jewish heritage and my parents Christianity.
Having blood ties doesn't mean anything in a religion, as religion is based on a common belief system. I don't see the analogy with having Indian blood. Here many non status and status Indians have no ties to Indians or Indian communities and that is their choice, its not a matter of blood its a matter of choice. My cousin who is Echota and urged me to enroll is what I would call a Bible thumping Christian to her having Cherokee blood meant being a fundamentalist Christian. I have nothing in common with Christians regardless of their ethnicity.

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2009, 01:54:59 pm »
If you change your Choctaw to my Creek and your Texas for my Alabama and your great great grandmother's death date to my great  Grandmother in 1925 you have written my family's story too.

... but Paul, this is what you said about your family history:
I have only in the past year began to investigate my NDN heritage. And even less time investigating the Echotas . I was raised white, so until an NDN community (either one) accepts me, I will always be white, no matter what a card says.
... ... ...
It's not that they (NDN's) don't accept me now, it's that they don't even know who I am.
[emphases added]

That is a very different story than what Rattlebone posted.

@Kathryn, et al,,,
Of the 3 things that you posted here you are correct that there is a big difference between RB's story and mine. I did not list ALL of the things we had in common or that were different. I didn't think I needed to. If this helps,,,  Where RB's story and mine separate is in about paragraph 4 of his post #90. A year ago I did not know this side of my family existed. In that year I have met a lot of family that I never knew. I will admit that my reply along this line was a defensive one. It seem to me that this debate had migrated to questioning my linage.One example came from BW's statement in post #55 when he said "Because they are Cherokee by blood with documented Cherokee families.  Not just someone who was told they were Cherokee by Grandma. "( I could quote other examples through out this thread, but why bother). So I guess that what I was doing was poorly trying to point out that (even tho I didn't know it a year ago) I too have a reasonably acceptable BQ. (and yes, I know that I just said that wrong too) I believe this is the same for Most of the Echota's as well (and no, I don't mean all of them either). I will point out that while it is OK for RattleBone (and some others) to have an oral family history, If I quote any of mine, BlackWolf (and plenty of others)  make light of it. 

 RattleBone however in his post #95 said this:
"So my point is there is nothing wrong with these Echota people saying they are Indian anymore then you or I. In this case I have proof of my claims and so do you. Regardless I am against people forming their own tribes".

THANK YOU RB. I don't feel so defective now.

I understand that there are plenty of fake tribes out there. and I know that ALL here know that not all of the unrecognized Tribes are fake. It was the intent of this thread to discover if the Echota Tribe was such a Tribe. I had hoped that people would discuss the faults and merits of that Tribe from knowledge of Them. So far only 2 people here have done that. One is/was a member and the other does know them.  All of the other replies seem to be based on whether or not it's cool to form a new tribe. I will point out that as I said above,,, that has already been done many, many years ago. And that they had to prove that they had been a Tribe for the past 200 years to be State recognized. So what now?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:25:34 am by Kathryn »

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2009, 02:26:02 pm »
I have a problem with the concept that white 19th century racists determined who was and who wasn't an Indian. Today the Virginia tribes are finally receiving recognition after a white racist "extingushed" them and declared that there were no Indians in Virginia. federal recognition does not really determine who is and who isn't an Indian, just who got on the rolls. It appears that Indians had very litte say in the matter.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2009, 06:59:24 pm »
As folks seem to believe that state recognised tribes are not authentic. This is from the Nanticoke tribe of the Delmarva Peninsula and New Jersey. I believe we have Nanticoke members in the group. I am originally from PA which does not have state recognised tribes, alhough the last census indicated that 11,000+ people listed their race as Native American.

An American Indian Tribal Nation…

 The Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe is a sovereign American Indian Nation made up of the Nanticoke and Lenni-Lenape people whose homelands have been in Southern New Jersey and the Delmarva Peninsula from ancient times.  Enrolled tribal citizens have met the mandatory documented descendancy and blood quantum requirements from the historic core tribal families as set by our tribal law.  Our tribal sovereignty was granted by the almighty Creator to our ancestors and was never surrendered by our tribal leadership to any other authority.  Our tribal citizens freely submit to the jurisdiction of, and pledge allegiance to, the Tribal government of the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe and agree to abide by any and all laws and rules of the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape and its governing documents and will respect and comply with the decisions of the duly elected Tribal Council. American Indians are citizens of the United States and their own tribes. The Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe expects its citizens to uphold the just laws of the federal, state, and tribal governments and calls on the federal and state governments to honor and respect its intrinsic tribal authority.

 A Non-Gaming Tribe…

 In keeping with the guidance of the almighty Creator, the admonishment of our tribal elders, the standing policies of our tribal leaders and the spiritual legacy left for future generations of our people, our tribal law requires that the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe shall not own, manage, operate or sponsor any business which profits from the promotion of vice.  This law applies to the Tribe itself and to all of its current or future subsidiaries.

            This tribal law specifically bans casino style gambling, the operating of slot machines, the selling of cigarettes, cigars, alcohol, pornography and federally or state banned substances by the tribe or its current or future subsidiaries.   

 An Affirmative Relationship with the State of New Jersey…

The Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe is a recognized American Indian Tribe by the State of New Jersey through both concurrent legislative resolution (S.C.R. 1982 No.73) and through state statute (N.J.P.L. 1995 c. 295; N.J.S. 52:16A-53 et. seq).  For almost two decades, the Tribe enjoyed unquestioned state recognized status. However, since 2001, the Tribe and its tribal citizens have suffered through interpretive ambiguities and direct attacks by some state officials regarding its status.  Such attacks on the state recognition of the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape ignore evidence from state records and actions supporting the history of such recognition and undermine the statutory responsibility of the Commission on American Indian Affairs to represent the interest of our tribal communities

 ·        The 1992 New Jersey Statutes, in authorizing correction to birth certificates (26:8-49),  listed that the “three New Jersey tribes of American Indians, the Powhatan-Renape Nation, the Ramapough Mountain Indians, or the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians” are able to substantiate American Indian Ancestry based upon their respective tribal records. 

 

·        The official November 2000 report to the Governor and Legislature from the New Jersey Commission on American Indian Affairs states, in its “Background” section, that the Powhatan-Renape Indians, Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians and the Ramapough Mountain Indians are “…the only three tribes recognized by the State of New Jersey.”  Moreover, the section entitled, “Legislative Action,” repeats the detail that, “There are only three tribes in the State of New Jersey that are legally recognized by the State.”

·        The Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe was designated by the State of New Jersey in the 2000 United States Census as “SDAISA,” which is a “State Designated American Indian Statistical Area” and is defined by the US Census Bureau as: “A statistical entity for state recognized American Indian tribes that do not have a state recognized reservation. SDAISAs are identified and delineated for the Census Bureau by a designated state official.”

·        According to New Jersey Statute 52:16A-56(4)(e), the Commission on American Indian Affairs has the statutory responsibility to serve as the “liaison among American Indian communities, the State and federal governments.” 

 Our tribal government and tribal citizens are a part of the history of New Jersey.  We seek to reinforce and expand our affirmative partnership with the state that reflects an understanding of Tribal History in New Jersey and provides for a improved tribal-state relationship.  Bills have been introduced in the New Jersey State Legislature on behalf of the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians of New Jersey, Inc. reaffirming the Tribe’s 1982 state recognition by Concurrent Resolution No. 73.  A new public law reaffirming our recognition will provide the Tribe with statutory protection of its eligibility for the federal benefits, rights and attributes extended to federally recognized Indian Tribes and federal protection for the sale of artwork, and the right to engage in traditional religious practices and ceremonies.  In spite of the previous recognition by resolution, the Tribe has suffered through subsequent governmental misinterpretations of its rights as an Indian Tribe, placing tribal artisans at risk of losing the ability to advertise their crafts as “Native American Made,” which is strictly regulated by the federal government.  Additionally, the new legislation will preserve the Tribe’s ability to apply for federal funding restricted for Native Americans and uphold the legitimacy of marriages solemnized through Tribal ceremonies. 

 While the 1982 resolution and the current bill provide for such federal benefits and acknowledgement, they do not bestow federal recognition, which is a much more lengthy, intensive and costly process through the U.S. Department of the Interior’s Bureau of Indian Affairs and is also being pursued by the Tribe.  The current bill includes language negating the possibility that the Tribe could use its state recognition to establish a casino, which is also a federally regulated process and would require a tribal compact with the state.  Tribal leaders willingly accepted this preclusion, as the Tribe had previously determined not to pursue Indian gaming, but to continue its tradition of community benefit services, cultural retention and promotion of its heritage.

 The following information was prepared by the Government Relations Committee of the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe.  It provides insight into the reasons that state recognition is important for the tribal government and tribal citizens, and how the state can benefit from reaffirming recognition and actively partnering with the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indian Tribe.  Our major request can be summed up in two ways: 1) An immediate confirmation of our status as a state recognized tribe through a proclamation from the Governor and an official letter to the Indian Arts and Crafts Board; 2) Statutory reaffirmation of state recognition and acknowledgement of our tribal government.

 Why a Reaffirmation of our State Recognition is Important to our Tribal Government –

1.      It enhances the Tribe’s ability to apply for federal funding restricted for Native Americans.  Without state recognition, tribes are ineligible for certain types of funding and are no longer as competitive for funding for which they may still technically qualify.  Federal funding for American Indians is primarily targeted to the more than 560 federally recognized tribes.  The State recognized tribes, of which there are approximately 40, must compete for what is left.  Without state recognition, a tribe is rarely able to receive American Indian educational, social, health and community development funding.

2.      It empowers the Tribe’s ability to impact and oversee American Indian Title VII Education Funding, Programming and Initiatives (20 U.S.C. 7401 et seq.). This provision works toward the goal of ensuring that programs that serve Indian children are of the highest quality and provide for not only the basic elementary and secondary educational needs, but also the unique educational and culturally related academic needs of tribal children so that such students can meet the same challenging State student academic achievement standards as all other students are expected to meet.

3.      It empowers the Tribe to be the primary service provider for certain federal initiatives, such as the Workforce Investment Act of 1998 (section 166) and the Empowerment Zone and Enterprise Community Program (Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997).

4.      It allows the Tribe to establish American Indian Tribally Owned Companies (AITOC) which qualify for special government contracting set asides and incentives.  AITOCs are able to qualify for Small Business Association 8(a) Business Development Program exceptions, because the business is helping to support an entire tribal government and community through economic development opportunities (13 CFR 124.506).

5.      It grants eligibility for the Tribe to participate in the benefits of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act as a governmental agency, providing programming and benefits to tribal citizens (25 USC 450 B).

6.      It qualifies the Tribe to protect tribal children under the Indian Child Welfare Act (25 USC 21), providing a partnership between tribal and state government in issue of foster care. 

7.      It entitles the Tribal government to participate in the Indian Community Development Block Grant Program (42 U.S.C. 5301 et seq.), which provides assistance to Indian tribes in the development of viable Indian communities. Indian tribes may use block grants to improve the housing stock, provide community facilities, make infrastructure improvements, and expand job opportunities by supporting the economic development of their communities.

8.      It entitles the Tribe’s demographics to be included in the United States Census through a State Designated American Indian Statistical Area (SDAISA), which is a statistical entity for state recognized American Indian tribes that do not have a state recognized reservation. SDAISAs are identified and delineated for the Census Bureau by a designated state official. They generally encompass a compact and contiguous area that contains a concentration of individuals who identify with a state recognized American Indian tribe and in which there is structured or organized tribal activity.

9.      It provides for the legitimacy of marriages solemnized through Tribal ceremonies. Those who oversee and register marriages endorsed by tribal tradition and law may not have clergy “credentials” in the non-Native sense.  Such marriages are accepted if the tribal government endorsing them has state or federal recognition… and, therefore, may act as its own religious judicatory.

10.  It affirms the authority granted tribal traditional spiritual leaders to serve as chaplains in institutional and military settings.  Endorsement by a tribe with state or federal recognition is required for most academic, hospital, prison, and military chaplain positions for traditional Native American spiritual leaders, since customary “clergy credentialing” does not apply.

11.  It allows the tribe to participate in regional, national and international forums which require state or federal recognition.  The National Congress of American Indians only allows state and federally recognized tribes to join and have governmental voting privileges.  This helped our partnership with the state in the legal battle to preserve the Black Creek site in Vernon, NJ.  The land, which the State Department of Environmental Protection has bought through its Green Acres program, is now part of Wawayanda State Park. Additionally, world-wide recognition of the Saint John United Methodist Church of Fordville, NJ as an historic Native American Church – established as a tribal congregation, required that documentation of state recognition be submitted to the General Board of Global Ministries of the United Methodist Church.  Saint John UMC is the only congregation with such a designation in the state.

12.  It supports the validity of our Tribe in addressing issues of its own history, from the educational curriculum in public schools and area colleges, to having been invited to advise on artifacts from our community held at the research center of the Smithsonian Institute.

13.  It strengthens tribal requests for an accurate accounting of our people.  Some primary and secondary schools and school districts have not kept an accurate statistical accounting of our people among their student bodies.  On occasion, these districts do not even provide a Native American/American Indian racial category on forms.  The original people of New Jersey should never be relegated to an “Other” category.

14.  It allows federal agencies to work with our tribal government. In partnership with the Tribe, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services restored grassland habitat on tribal property. Native warm-season grasses and wildflowers were seeded to 12 acres to benefit grassland-dependent migratory birds and insect pollinators in southern New Jersey.  Additionally, sweetgrass, a native plant with cultural significance to the tribe, will be planted when propagation is completed in 2002.

 15.  It authenticates our standing among the recognized tribal communities around the country and in Canada, allowing tribal citizens living out of state to be well received. 

 16.  It differentiates between historic American Indian Tribes and American Indian Enthusiast Groups.  American Indian Tribes are not “re-enactment groups” or “historical/cultural enthusiasts,” who may not have any descent from a Native tribal community.  However, without state or federal recognition, legitimate tribes of ancient origin are not offered the respect they deserve.

 Why a Reaffirmation of our State Recognition is Important to our Tribal Citizens –

1.      It grants our tribal artisans and craftsmen ability to advertise their crafts as “Native American Made,” which is strictly regulated by the federal government with heavy penalties for violations.  “Native American Made” or “American Indian Made” designations greatly increase the value of artwork and crafts because it certifies their authenticity.  The designation also allows tribal artisans and craftsmen to enter competitions and participate in exhibits restricted to citizens of state and federally recognized tribes.  The designation also allows our arts and crafts to be competitive in the Native artisan's world.

2.      It validates the music, literature or artwork as authentic, having an impact on the market value of creative works and the extent to which they are received and valued.  It also allows such creative works to be entered into restricted contests. 

3.      It allows tribal citizens to join National / Intertribal Native groups and organizations. Tribal citizenship in a state or federally recognized tribe afford the ability to join, vote and run for office. 

4.      It allows tribal citizens to establish Native American Businesses recognized by the Small Business Administration, and various national Native American business associations.

5.      It allows tribal citizens to participate in American Indian Chambers of Commerce, which often require citizenship in a federal or state tribe in order to join, run for office or vote.

6.      It allows tribal citizens to participate in “Native Only” Pow Wows and cultural events.  Some organizations and tribal nations require proof of citizenship in a state or federally recognized tribe to dance and participate in activities not open to the general public.

7.      It qualifies tribal citizens for certain educational grants and scholarships restricted to Native Americans. Non-federally recognized tribal citizens need a state recognized tribal affiliation in order to qualify for funding targeted for American Indians.

8.      It qualifies tribal citizens as eligible to apply to tribal colleges and training programs as American Indians, providing for certain privileges reserved for tribal citizens.

9.      It qualifies tribal citizens for restricted jobs with other state or federally recognized tribes. Many federal or state recognized tribes, when hiring outside of their own tribal population, prefer to hire Native Americans from other tribes for their tribal social services, land development, educational institutions and other positions.  Proof of state or federally recognized tribal citizenship is typically required.   

10.  It qualifies tribal citizens for certain health services from Indian Health Service Clinics and some tribal health services.  Some medical programs and clinics are available to those of Native ancestry who can prove they are citizens of a state or federally recognized tribe. 

11.  It allows tribal communities in other states or in Canada to organize and be recognized as legitimate bands or sub-groups.  It differentiates these bands as truly “tribal” as opposed to being merely an enthusiast group with no Native descent.

 Why a Reaffirmation of our State Recognition is Important to the State –

1.      It allows an American Indian Tribe to act as a government with powers similar to a state, accessing programming funding for its citizens that the state cannot provide because of the restricted nature of the subsidy.  Such programming infuses the state with services to its citizens who are also citizens of its recognized tribes and even those who are not tribal citizens but live in tribal communities.

2.      It acknowledges the continued presence of an indigenous tribal government, diminishing the strength of treaty claims from other tribal governments or groups from outside of the state, or unrecognized American Indian groups within the state, regarding gaming and land claims.  Our tribal law prohibits the establishment of Indian casino gaming and our tribal values promote a respect for the private property rights of our citizens and our neighbors.  The state would have a friendly partner in promoting Native interests.

3.      It allows for federal funding and programming targeting American Indian Tribes to stay within the state, benefiting New Jersey.  Without affirmative state support, such targeted initiatives will be controlled by outside entities.

4.      It stimulates the state’s economic development, especially in rural tribal areas.  As tribal economic development expands, the job market expands for both tribal and non-tribal citizens.

5.      It provides for an authoritative voice on American Indian Issues within the state to aid in guiding state policies and educating state institutions regarding both historic and modern Native concerns.

6.      It ensures that the state has representation with the national and international indigenous community.  As the National Congress of American Indians presses the federal government regarding tribal issues and the United Nations promotes the concerns of indigenous communities, New Jersey would not be left out.

7.      It bolsters a valuable partner in environmental protection as the tribe can bring “set aside” resources to bear on state environmental and preservation concerns.

8.      It aids in overturning the mistreatment of the state’s indigenous communities. With the state as a confirmed ally in uplifting it tribal communities, the legacy of suffering and persecution is confronted.

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2009, 08:42:41 pm »
As folks seem to believe that state recognised tribes are not authentic.


 Actually I do not have a problem with state recognized tribes, and do realize that some are in fact real tribes. Those that I support are historic tribes, and have documentation that they are, and often times it goes back to the days before the United States was even independent from the English.

 However there is a huge problem now days in the Southeast, which is people that have some distant ancestor they might not even be able to prove trying to form their own tribes. Often times they do this to cash in on Federal Benefits that are set aside for real tribes, and not people that just woke up and decided since they might have some Cherokee ggggggg grandmother they can't prove, they are still Indian and entitled to from a tribe with people of similar back ground.

 Most often then not, these bogus tribes being formed are being set up as Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, and Lumbee. Cherokee obviously is the people they claim to be, and it is no wonder since everyone now days claims to be a Cherokee from some ancestor they can't even prove existed.

 This problem is exacerbated by the fact that many southern states will accept these claims and are giving them state recognition. Why are the states doing this? Not because the people claiming to be (insert tribe) really are NDN or from some historic tribe, but rather the states are wanting to cash in on the funds as well.

 At this time I believe the Echota Cherokee fall into this category, and I believe their possible state recognition has been done so under the false premise that they are indeed some historic tribe. Their website had the stench of twinkie all over it, and I am convinced they are no sort of historic tribe and should have no recognition by anyone as any sort of tribal entity

 

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2009, 09:20:25 pm »
Quote
Cherokee obviously is the people they claim to be, and it is no wonder since everyone now days claims to be a Cherokee from some ancestor they can't even prove existed.

Even President Obama claims to be part Cherkoee. 

http://64.38.12.138/News/2008/011284.asp

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2009, 10:57:51 pm »
I just wanted to throw something out there about the concept of being Full Blooded Cherokee in traditional Cherokee society and especially during the 1800's.  For Cherokees, not having a BQ of 4/4 did not necessarily mean that one could not be considered “full blooded Cherokee”.  The concept of race for Cherokees was brought over by Europeans.  Although there were differences amongst tribes,( Creeks, Euchee, etc), Cherokees didn’t have the concept of race before contact.  It was more about the Clan system.  When the whites  began to intermarry with the Cherokees, Cherokees would hear whites mention concepts a lot like “full blood”, “half”, etc.  They then began to associate being Full Blood Cherokee with being fluent in the language, and following Cherokee Tradional beliefs. 

So when people sometimes say that they have a “Full blood” Cherokee Grandma or Great Grandma.  It didn’t necessarily mean that their grandma had a 4/4 BQ.  It could have meant that she was Traditional Cherokees, non-Christian, and spoke the language, when racially she could have been 1/4 Cherokee. 

Skin color didn’t really matter to Cherokees.  Originally it was based on the clan system which was matrilineal.  For example, a Cherokee woman of the Wolf Clan married a white man.  To the Cherokees, the daughter of that union would be just Cherokee and of the Wolf Clan.  To whites, the girl would be a half breed.  Now that girl would be ½ racially white, and later marry a white man.  The kid would still just be Cherokee of the Wolf Clan to the Cherokees, while having a BQ of 1/4.  Now, keep this up a few more generations, and you can see why many Cherokees have low BQ’s.  In the 1800's, sometime, the Cherokee Nation changed its constitution to allow descendants of males to be Cherokee. Chief John Ross, the Chief of the Cherokee Nation during the Trail of Tears  was himself 1/8 Cherokee.

I have family on both ends of the skin color spectrum. Some dark skin, and others light skin because of intermarriage.  But to me they are all Cherokee.   

I mention this because I hear non-NDNS/non Cherokees on this site mention the BQ/skin color issue a lot and about some NDNS’s being more racially white then Indian, etc, etc, and how they live a life of privlage based on skin color, etc, etc, etc. And I’m not talking about Cherokees on this site  who don’t have cards , I”m talking about non-NDNS.   They might want to consider the fact that they may be looking at this issue from their own non NDN and more importantly non Cherokee belief system.  In other words they are filtering this issue through their own belief system.   

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2009, 11:25:23 pm »
I found this from a Wikipedia site and thought I would toss it in here for discussion as it seems to be about the Echotas history. (now I think I see where the black dutch thing came from).

Quote:
Harris Toney and his family also founded and settled Toney, Alabama. Cherokee and Chickasaw Indians who refused to migrate west found refuge in the Toney Community after the Indian Treaties of the early 1800's, the native families intermarried with each other so that a distinct group emerged. This group, which became monitored by the State of Alabama, was distinguished from blacks, whites and the other mixed-race descendants in the area, Toney Cherokee Indian descendants are called the Echota Cherokee by the State of Alabama. The Echota Cherokee is recognized as an Indian Tribe by the State of Alabama. The Echota Cherokee segment of the old Cherokee Nation evolved under a section of Article 12 in the Cherokee Treaty of 1835.

Source citation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powhatan_Tribe