Author Topic: Echota Cherokee  (Read 121678 times)

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2009, 12:29:05 am »

No Tribal rolls were created there because there was no Tribal Goverment there.  There was no Tribal Goverment there because the Tribal Goverment was in Oklahoma.

And it could have something to do with the State of Alabama passing laws forbidding it too.  



In which case, if they wanted to remain Cherokee citizens, they could have packed up and moved to Oklahoma and rejoined the tribe. They didn't. They stayed. They chose non-tribal life over tribal citizenship. We all make choices.



This is true.

 but what they really wanted was to stay alive.

 In my families case they equated moving with sure death.
 (well some of them anyway), some did move, and some of them died doing so. And some died for not wanting to move.

Question:
would anyone here not think that the word of all of the deaths did not get back to the ones that stayed behind.

Personally I don't think that anyone of them thought that they were giving up anything,,, perhaps they thought that it would all blow over. but if they thought that-- on the one hand if I don't move I will lose all of my rights as a Cherokee for me and my descendants and on the other hand if I do go there won't be any descendants, they will kill us out there. hummm kinda a no brainer.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 01:05:07 am by Paul123 »

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2009, 01:23:26 am »
Quote
Now why would you want to split a thread about the Echota Tribe to another thread? Does it bother you that bad?

Yes, it does bother me to see bogus Cherokee Tribes.  When these groups claim to be Cherokee Tribes, they are only disrespecting the Cherokee heritage that they say they are honoring.  Here's a quote from the Fraudlent Indian Task Force that explains it well. 

"False tribes use elements of the names of real tribes in order to confuse the public and bolster their legitimacy. Consider the “Northern Cherokee Nation of Missouri and Arkansas.” In trademark law this similarity of name with Cherokee Nation is called dilution. Confusion between the true tribe and the imposters causes the public to think less of the true tribe. In fact, when the public sees these false tribes simply organize ex nihilo (out of nothing) and receive Indian benefits, the image of all real tribes is diluted."

I wanted to split the thread to get into why the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians is the ONLY legit Cherokee Tribe whose members have ansestors who stayed behind during the Trail of Tears.  As opposed to the bogus Cherokee Tribes.  The Echota Cherokee Tribe is just one of hundreds bogus Cherokee Tribes.

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2009, 01:28:51 am »


In which case, if they wanted to remain Cherokee citizens, they could have packed up and moved to Oklahoma and rejoined the tribe. They didn't. They stayed. They chose non-tribal life over tribal citizenship. We all make choices.



This is true.

 but what they really wanted was to stay alive.

 In my families case they equated moving with sure death.
 (well some of them anyway), some did move, and some of them died doing so. And some died for not wanting to move.

Question:
would anyone here not think that the word of all of the deaths did not get back to the ones that stayed behind.

Personally I don't think that anyone of them thought that they were giving up anything,,, perhaps they thought that it would all blow over. but if they thought that-- on the one hand if I don't move I will lose all of my rights as a Cherokee for me and my descendants and on the other hand if I do go there won't be any descendants, they will kill us out there. hummm kinda a no brainer.


Except there are decedents of those who relocated, who retained their identity at great suffering.  They did NOT all die and get killed.  So choices were made, and you can’t just go back and invent some kind of tribal sovereign government because you don’t like the choices your ancestors made.

If you love and respect your Cherokee ancestry, think about what best serves the Cherokee people as a whole, NOT what you as an individual wants. Respect and support for the sovereignty of the continuous legitimate Cherokee governments and tribes, even if it leaves you out of citizenship, seems like a no-brainer to me, but apparently lots of Cherokee decedents don’t get that. 

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2009, 01:34:05 am »
Quote
And it could have something to do with the State of Alabama passing laws forbidding it too.


Same goes for Georgia.  Why did the Trail of Tears happen in the first place?  Even if those that stayed behind wanted to form a Tribal Goverment, there were only a handful of Cherokees that stayed behind.  Not nearly enough to form a Tribal Goverment in the first place.  I'm not denying that it was rough to be Cherokee back then.  Thats why many Cherokees and their decendants that did stay behind did their best to hide their heritage.

Quote
You know that is the same phrase that those Saturday morning Christian missionaries use when they are telling you that your going to burn in hell if you are a member of one of those SO CALLED churches that don't think like them.

Your argument is a fallacy.  I've explained on this thread why the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama is not a Cherokee Tribe.  Its not because I don't personally like their members, but because they are presenting themselves as something that they are not ( a Cherokee Tribe ), and diltuting the identity of the 3 Federally Recognized Cherokee Tribes.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2009, 02:14:17 am »
Quote
Now why would you want to split a thread about the Echota Tribe to another thread? Does it bother you that bad?

Yes, it does bother me to see bogus Cherokee Tribes.  When these groups claim to be Cherokee Tribes, they are only disrespecting the Cherokee heritage that they say they are honoring.  Here's a quote from the Fraudlent Indian Task Force that explains it well. 

"False tribes use elements of the names of real tribes in order to confuse the public and bolster their legitimacy. Consider the “Northern Cherokee Nation of Missouri and Arkansas.” In trademark law this similarity of name with Cherokee Nation is called dilution. Confusion between the true tribe and the imposters causes the public to think less of the true tribe. In fact, when the public sees these false tribes simply organize ex nihilo (out of nothing) and receive Indian benefits, the image of all real tribes is diluted."

I wanted to split the thread to get into why the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians is the ONLY legit Cherokee Tribe whose members have ansestors who stayed behind during the Trail of Tears.  As opposed to the bogus Cherokee Tribes.  The Echota Cherokee Tribe is just one of hundreds bogus Cherokee Tribes.


Well if you want to start a thread about the Eastern,,, Band knock your self out.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2009, 02:33:18 am »
Don't need to right now. 


Rattlebone said this.
Quote
You seem to like to compare apples to oranges, and because they are both fruit you declare them the same thing.

 What the EBC did, or what dragging canoe did is not the same thing as maybe some NDN person leaving their tribe over a hundred years ago or something like that, and then their descendant today joining up with somebody with a similar family story thinking they are NDN and trying to form a tribe.

 It just doesn't work that way.

The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians are the decendantes of a fairly large population of Cherokees( over a thousand ) who stayed behind during the Trail of Tears as opposed to the realatively few people who stayed behind in Alabama.  And they had a continous existance as a Tribal Goverment and people.  And had legal dealings with the US goverment as a united people.  And they did not do their best to blend in to the dominant society and give up being Cherkoee. And kept up Cheorkee traditions and culture.

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2009, 10:09:30 am »
Don't need to right now. 


Rattlebone said this.
Quote
You seem to like to compare apples to oranges, and because they are both fruit you declare them the same thing.

 What the EBC did, or what dragging canoe did is not the same thing as maybe some NDN person leaving their tribe over a hundred years ago or something like that, and then their descendant today joining up with somebody with a similar family story thinking they are NDN and trying to form a tribe.

 It just doesn't work that way.

So posting something by someone that twisted the facts of the Thousands of NDNs that stayed behind, down to "Well,, maybe there was only ONE disgruntled NDN that stayed behind" really makes your point. Well done sir.

The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians are the decendantes of a fairly large population of Cherokees( over a thousand ) who stayed behind during the Trail of Tears as opposed to the realatively few people who stayed behind in Alabama.  And they had a continous existance as a Tribal Goverment and people.  And had legal dealings with the US goverment as a united people.  And they did not do their best to blend in to the dominant society and give up being Cherkoee. And kept up Cheorkee traditions and culture.

Now didn't you just say that the REAL Government was in Ok. So how is it that the EB can do this and not some other group?  Damn son ,,, make up your mind,,, Which is it?

Oh yea,,, Posting CNO talking points about some “Northern Cherokee Nation of Missouri and Arkansas.” well as this is a thread about the Echota Tribe ,,,Well,  that didn't really help you either. But keep trying,,,

OK, it's really simple. The State of Alabama says that they have proven themselves to be a REAL Tribe. your job is to prove that they are not. On you mark, Get set, GO,,,,, (And try to stay on topic this time... )

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2009, 12:43:00 pm »
Quote
So posting something by someone that twisted the facts of the Thousands of NDNs that stayed behind, down to "Well,, maybe there was only ONE disgruntled NDN that stayed behind" really makes your point. Well done sir.


Rattlebone's point was valid.  Just change the one to a few, maybe a dozen.  Because there were not that many Cherokees that stayed behind in Alabama. Besides the EB ancestors, there were not thousands that stayed behind.  More like a few hundred that were scattered around a couple of states.  After Removal there were a few hundred scattared around Georgia, Alabama, Tennesee, etc.  And a lot of those joined up with the EB. 


Quote
Now didn't you just say that the REAL Government was in Ok. So how is it that the EB can do this and not some other group?  Damn son ,,, make up your mind,,, Which is it?


The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians has a very different story then that of people who claim Cherokee ancestry from a handful of Cherokeees that stayed behind in Alabama nearly 200 years ago.  I've explained in the above post why they are different situations.  You must not have read it. 

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2009, 12:49:26 pm »
Quote
Oh yea,,, Posting CNO talking points about some “Northern Cherokee Nation of Missouri and Arkansas.” well as this is a thread about the Echota Tribe ,,,Well,  that didn't really help you either. But keep trying,,,


It was a valid point.  They are both bogus Cherokee Tribes claiming to be the decendents of a handful of Cherokees from nearly 200 years ago who now think they have the right to form a Tribal Goverment.

Quote
OK, it's really simple. The State of Alabama says that they have proven themselves to be a REAL Tribe. your job is to prove that they are not. On you mark, Get set, GO,,,,, (And try to stay on topic this time... )

There are lots of incentives for the state of Alabama to say this. 

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2009, 04:48:40 pm »

OK, it's really simple. The State of Alabama says that they have proven themselves to be a REAL Tribe. your job is to prove that they are not. On you mark, Get set, GO,,,


Removed the color, black's easier on my tired old eyes.

This thread you should take a look at.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2192.0

The short version is...most states don't have any good standards for recognition, lots of phony groups abuse this lack of standards, and under the US Constitution recognition is a federal matter of nation to nation.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2009, 06:26:44 pm »
I agree, the fact is that many people cannot document all of their ancestry is a very big problem. If black people were only eligible for federal benefits based on family history, many would be sadly disappointed, if the blood quantum were 50% only a very small number would qualify, Obama would.
In the future perhaps more accurate DNA testing will resolve this problem. I have no doubt that far more people have Indian ancestry than those who are enrolled. Al, you are clearly Indian, but you are unenrolled. BTW Al I sent you an email from Spike's list, let me know what you think about it...

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2009, 06:46:24 pm »
In the future perhaps more accurate DNA testing will resolve this problem.

But DNA is often totally irrelevant when it comes to determining what culture someone belongs to. The testing we have now gives results of a particular line of ancestors, which may be a small minority of the number of ancestors someone had, and have nothing to do with what culture they were raised in. Even if we get "more accurate" testing... the results may be interesting, but they will still say nothing about how someone grew up, who their family is, or any of the other things that determine ethnic cultural identity. I only see abuse coming from DNA testing in these matters.

Offline tachia

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #87 on: September 30, 2009, 07:30:09 pm »
In the future perhaps more accurate DNA testing will resolve this problem.

But DNA is often totally irrelevant when it comes to determining what culture someone belongs to. The testing we have now gives results of a particular line of ancestors, which may be a small minority of the number of ancestors someone had, and have nothing to do with what culture they were raised in. Even if we get "more accurate" testing... the results may be interesting, but they will still say nothing about how someone grew up, who their family is, or any of the other things that determine ethnic cultural identity. I only see abuse coming from DNA testing in these matters.

kathryn ..
i agree completely with your post! .. .. i placed that last bit in bold, as we have already been seeing a lot of abuse from these "DNA tests" .. .. just to give a recent example: a woman that i know is not ndn, has long claimed to be Chihuahua Apache and even many times claimed to be the granddaughter of Geronimo .. she has been involved in a couple of fraud "tribes" in texas in the past .. for a period of several years she gave up on these claims and said she was only white and geneology had showed that she had no ndn blood .. ah but she still "felt" as if she was ndn, "in her heart" .. ..

a few months ago she told me that she had saved the money and was having a "DNA test" done .. when i questioned her motives for this she said that she was only doing it for her own peace of mind and nothing more .. i explained further that if she had any thoughts of finding some modicum of ndn blood through DNA and then attempted to "BE" whatever the DNA found that it would be flat out WRONG .. she assured me that she would never do such a thing and only "wanted to know" ..

i had been out of touch with her for quite a few months and recently ran into her again .. well the "DNA test" came back saying that she was of Lakota heritage .. *shaking head* .. so  .. she is now learning the Lakota language via the internet, found some (supposedly) Lakota man on the internet .. he is "adopting her, in her words, "into the tribe" .. she is planning to go to Cherry Creek for what she is calling a "hunkapi ceremony" .. is planning on moving there and, her words again, "becoming an enrolled member of the tribe" .. etc...

she was born and raised white, decided as an adult that she was ndn, claimed to be Apache for years yet never learned about the culture and instead joined a fake "cult" that practiced the typical mix and match new age crap and called it "native american spirituality" .. her family has done extensive genealogy proving to her that they are white with no ndn blood anywhere and they all think she is nuts ..

ah but now, thanks to a "DNA test" she is going to go and "BE" Lakota! .. .. ..

and as many of us already know, this sort of story is widespread now ..

DNA tests will lead to abuse? .. as far as i am concerned, yep!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:19:33 am by Kathryn »

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #88 on: September 30, 2009, 07:58:04 pm »
There were a couple of Cherokee Rolls taken after the Trail of Tears for Cherokees residing East of the Mississippi.  I don't know how many Cherokees may have been excluded from these rolls, nor do I know how many of these Cherokees returned to the Eastern Band.  But here they are.

The Siler Roll 1851 - This is a list of 1700+ Cherokees living East of the Mississippi who were entitiled to a per capita payment pursurant to an Act of Congress.  I'm assuming this includes the ancestors of the Eastern Band.  I couldn't find it online though.


The Chapman Roll 1852 - This was the payment roll based on the Siler Roll. 


http://www.tngennet.org/cherokee_by_blood/chapman.htm


Alabama section of Chapman Roll which shows 4 counties in Alabama and I counted about 69 people.
http://www.tngennet.org/cherokee_by_blood/chapal.htm#Jackson

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #89 on: September 30, 2009, 08:19:54 pm »
It should also be noted that in addition to the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama, there are 3 other State Recognized Cherkoee Tribes in Alabama.

Cherokee Tribe of NE Alabama.
http://www.cherokeetribeofnortheastalabama.com/

The Cher-O Creek Intra Tribal Indians
http://www.native-american-online.org/CHER-O-CREEK.htm

The United Cherokee -Ani-Yun-Wiya Nation
http://www.ucan-online.org/