Author Topic: Echota Cherokee  (Read 121679 times)

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2009, 06:18:23 pm »
I would agree with you about some points you make. However, I have yet to see any benefits to members of any state tribes. Certainly no benefits that people like me who are not American or even Americans who do not live in the state. The only benefits I am eligible for from the US is my Pennsylvania teachers pension when I turn 65.
I also have no doubt that these so called "black Indian tribes" are only interested in getting money and making money. Tecumseh Brown Eagle and his"moundbuilders" are trying to get a casino in Ohio, and the other pretender Walter Renz is trying to do the same thing with his pseudo Shawnee tribe.
I believe that the real problem are those tribes who are trying to rip off the government and have no legitimacy. I haven't seen anything fraudulent, misleading, selling ceremonies or names, selling medicines or sweats etc.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2009, 06:23:14 pm »
It's not the Task Force that is causing the damage. It's these groups of descendants who think they have the right to call themselves a Tribe or Nation. It's the PODIA's who think they should have the same rights as an historically recognized Nation. It's the adult-onset Indian, the over-nighter, who thinks they should have sovereign rights. It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant, how presumptuous these people are. Wake up one morning and decide to honor your one long ago Cherokee ancestor and think you have inherent rights. This isn't honoring anyone. This is being self-centered and selfish.

"adult-onset Indian" - HA! Good one!

Offline Don Naconna

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2009, 07:05:40 pm »
Persons of Recently Discovered Indian Ancestry PORDIA. I would suggest that members join some of these black Indian groups and confront them. I'll post a list of them.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2009, 07:08:03 pm »
Well said Bls923


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Petitioner must present evidence that each of its members is a descendent of individuals recognized as Indian members of an historical Alabama tribe, band, or group found on rolls compiled by the federal government or otherwise identified on other official records or documents.


“On other official records or documents”?  This is meaningless.  Just because someone self identifies as Indian on an official document doesn’t necessarily mean its true.  They also use old Bible Records and affidavits as proof. Pretty lose standards if you ask me.

I would say that the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama could maybe be a Cherokee Heritage Club.  The problem with that is, is that personally I believe many of their members probably don’t have Cherokee heritage at all.  And there are some pretty well documented reasons out there as to why many may believe they have Cherokee heritage. 

And for the ones that do actually have Cherokee Heritage, I doubt that after 200 years of intermarriage with white people, and being  away from the main population of Cherokees in Oklahoma and North Carolina for 200 years, by now very little (if any) Cherokee culture has been retained. That’s why a lot of so called Cherokees have taken on the identity of Plains Indian Tribes and have given themselves made up names that sound more like the names of Indians from Plains Tribes.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2009, 07:12:58 pm »
Paul

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So we talked a bit about what the Creeks in Ok. thought about her State tribe. She said that they weren't Cherokee.


Good point!  She isn’t Cherokee.  We Cherokees are the most misrepresented people in NDN country.  Last count, there were close to 300 bogus Cherokee Tribes.  Maybe she would feel different if the shoe was on the other foot.  Although there are a few bogus Creek Tribes out there, it can’t by a long shot compare with the number of fake Cherokee Tribes. 


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There two tribes have a good relationship.

The Cherokee Nation and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians have a great relationship.  They even had a joint council meeting not too long ago. Here is part of the resolution that they both passed.   

"The Councils of the Cherokee Nation and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians at the Joint Council Meeting held in Catoosa, Oklahoma on April 9, 2008 passed a resolution Opposing Fabricated Cherokee "Tribes" and "Indians". It denounced any further state or federal recognition of "Cherokee" tribes or bands, aside from the those already federally recognized, and committed themselves to exposing and assisting state and federal authorities in eradicating any group which attempts or claims to operate as a government of the Cherokee people.
In addition, the resolution asked that no public funding from any federal or state government should be expended on behalf of non-federally recognized 'Cherokee' tribes or bands and that the Nation would call for a full accounting of all federal monies given to state recognized, unrecognized or SOI©)(3) charitable organizations that claim any Cherokee affiliation."




Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2009, 07:14:19 pm »
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And then she had a few words about the damage all of that Task Farce crap was doing to all Tribes that I can't post here

Lots of damage has been done alright..... damage done to true NDN tribes that is. 

"A battle for what it means to be an Indian tribe and a struggle for benefits provided to Indians is currently being waged by groups seeking to take away the identity and benefits that have been reserved to federally recognized Indian tribes. Hundreds of false Indian groups are claiming to be sovereign tribes and are teaching their own fabricated culture and history as if it were Indian. They apply for and receive aid from the same sources that fund the historic treaty based obligations intended for Indians. Yet they do not measure up to the credentials required of true tribes."

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2009, 07:15:39 pm »
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Money is tight, go ahead and give some congressman a good excuse and you guys will wind up being Fake NDN's too. Then what you gonna do?


Indian Tribe have always been sovereign.  The Federal Government merely recognizes that.  There are cases of people that are clearly NDN. but are not enrolled in a particular Federally Recognized Tribe.  There also are at least some State Recognized Tribes that are legit Indian Tribes, and some Tribes that lost Federal Recognition for whatever reason.  There also are individuals who are NDN, but for one reason or the other don’t have a card. 

I try to separate these "un recognized Indians" from the hordes of Wannabees and New Agers who for the most part claim to be Cherokee.  The problem is that these fakes give all non recognized Indians a bad name.  So not having a card does not necessarily mean that someone is a fake Indian.  You have to use common sense. 

 
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For proof I will point out the requirements (posted above by LOM) to be an Tribe in Alabama. If the Echota's have met ALL of those requirements, then the ONLY difference between them and the CNO (other than the money) is which roll is allowed.

The Echotas talk about rolls in their criteria.  While some Echotas may have ancestors on Cherokee Rolls.   I doubt that this is the case with most of them. 

Offline Don Naconna

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2009, 07:45:34 pm »
Having a card doesn't make you an Indian either. Many Indian people have left Indian communities for whatever reason and have no ties to their birth communities. For all intents and purposes they have fully integrated into the mainstream.
As far as receiving benefits, many folks simply don't want special status, like me. People are not necessarily bonded by blood.
Question... Many black people would say that if you don't identify with the ghetto, fundamentalism, poverty, or even rap music are not black, regardless of their ancestry or physical appearance. If that standard were applied than 45% of black people (the black middle class) are no longer black.

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2009, 08:48:11 pm »
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Having a card doesn't make you an Indian either. Many Indian people have left Indian communities for whatever reason and have no ties to their birth communities. For all intents and purposes they have fully integrated into the mainstream.

Theres a difference between being NDN and knowing the cultural, language and traditions of your people.  Many NDNS and/or their families for economic and/or relocation and other reasons were forced to leave their respective communities in the not to distant past.  I would never say that these people and their childeren weren't NDN.  I would just say that they were Indians who are disconnected both spiritually and culturally from their Tribe.  Big difference.  As I said before.  Indian blood makes you NDN.  If you do have a card, from what ever tribe your from, and no matter how intergrated you are into the mainstream.  That pretty much tells me that your NDN.  Thats the reason every Federally Recognized tribe in the country requires proof of Tribal blood.  I personally know Cherokees, Mohawks, Sioux, Navajos,Ojibways, that were raised most of their life away from their Tribal Communities.  But their still NDN to me. 

Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2009, 09:17:52 pm »
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I would agree with you about some points you make. However, I have yet to see any benefits to members of any state tribes.

Don Naconna, here are a few examples here you can look at in reference to funds diverted by False Tribes

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Default.aspx?tabid=128

Offline taraverti

  • Posts: 82
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2009, 09:40:11 pm »
Paul, with all due respect, I think it is you that is confused about the terms Tribe and Nation. In the context of American Indian Sovereignty, they are synonymous. That is where the danger lies.  

« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 10:09:21 pm by taraverti »

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2009, 10:20:16 pm »
BlackWolf



 Many NDNS and/or their families for economic and/or relocation and other reasons were forced to leave their respective communities in the not to distant past.  I would never say that these people and their childeren weren't NDN.  I would just say that they were Indians who are disconnected both spiritually and culturally from their Tribe.  Big difference. 


So just what is that "Big Difference"?
 that it happened in 1938 instead of 1838? ;D


Offline BlackWolf

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2009, 10:47:02 pm »
Quote
So just what is that "Big Difference"?
 that it happened in 1938 instead of 1838?

The Cherokees that may have left the Cherokee Nation in 1938 came from documented Cherokee families on Tribal Rolls ( Dawes )
Their families stayed with the Cherokee Nation during the removal and remained with the Tribe.  Their link is to the Cherokee Nation and the Tribal Goverment.  Not to a few ancestors of Cherokee heritage.

There were at least some Cherokees that stayed behind in Alabama.  But that was their choice to stay behind for whatever reason.  Many did their best later to blend in to the dominant society, and for the most part intermarried with the surrounding population.  No Tribal rolls were created there because there was no Tribal Goverment there.  There was no Tribal Goverment there because the Tribal Goverment was in Oklahoma.  Many Cherokees left Oklahoma during the Dust Bowl.  A lot going to California.  But they left the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma, where a tribal Goverment was in place and where the bulk of the Cherokee population lived and their families are documented. There are no Tribal Rolls of the Cherokees that stayed in Alabama because there was no tribe there as it was just a few families that stayed. 

Its just like if your an American and have a kid in lets say Europe.  If you want to get that kid an American passport, then you have to prove your an American.  Same goes for enrolling in a Federally Recognzied Tribe.   

Ancestors of the The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians did stay behind.  I can talk about the differences between the EB and the so called  Echota Cherokee Tribe, but I should probably do that in another thread.  If there are any EB members on this site.  Maybe you can explain it better then I can as to why the EB is a legit tribe ( which they clearly are ), and the Echotas are not.


Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2009, 11:15:49 pm »


Indian Tribe have always been sovereign.  The Federal Government merely recognizes that.  There are cases of people that are clearly NDN. but are not enrolled in a particular Federally Recognized Tribe.  There also are at least some State Recognized Tribes that are legit Indian Tribes, and some Tribes that lost Federal Recognition for whatever reason.  There also are individuals who are NDN, but for one reason or the other don’t have a card. 

Well at least we can agree on this.

I can talk about the differences between the EB and the so called Echota Cherokee Tribe, but I should probably do that in another thread.

Now why would you want to split a thread about the Echota Tribe to another thread? Does it bother you that bad?


No Tribal rolls were created there because there was no Tribal Goverment there.  There was no Tribal Goverment there because the Tribal Goverment was in Oklahoma.

And it could have something to do with the State of Alabama passing laws forbidding it too. 

and the so called Echota Cherokee Tribe

You know that is the same phrase that those Saturday morning Christian missionaries use when they are telling you that your going to burn in hell if you are a member of one of those SO CALLED churches that don't think like them.   


Offline taraverti

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2009, 11:46:47 pm »

No Tribal rolls were created there because there was no Tribal Goverment there.  There was no Tribal Goverment there because the Tribal Goverment was in Oklahoma.

And it could have something to do with the State of Alabama passing laws forbidding it too. 



In which case, if they wanted to remain Cherokee citizens, they could have packed up and moved to Oklahoma and rejoined the tribe. They didn't. They stayed. They chose non-tribal life over tribal citizenship. We all make choices.