Author Topic: Echota Cherokee  (Read 121663 times)

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2009, 09:33:48 am »
Thanks guys,
Here's what I have concluded (so far) from my seeking.

I may be wrong, in part or completely. We can discuss it. (I may of course rant some when I get frustrated)  but.........

The blood quantum thing doesn't matter. Either you are or your not,,, the percentage only mattered (back then) to the Gov. so they could decide how much land to give you. and of course now it seems to matter to the whites,,, Well non-NDN's,,, because I did see a black guy ask in disbelief one of my Cherokee co-workers last month to see his card. My friend showed it to him. I would have ask to see his card to prove that he was black. I'm about 3/4 honky, the rest is Cherokee. I have family in the CNO and the Echota Tribe. Sure there are some things that I don't like on both sides but I still don't know if there is anything wrong with either Tribe that would or should preclude enrollment.  I have only in the past year began to investigate my NDN heritage. And even less time investigating the Echotas . I was raised white, so until an NDN community (either one) accepts me, I will always be white, no matter what a card says. (like the blacks accept Obama. he's 1/2 and 1/2 but one side accepts him) The whites accept me, I hope one day to be accepted by both sides. But for now it would only be a paper ("the card") thingy. It's not that they (NDN's) don't accept me now, it's that they don't even know who I am. There is an CNO Cherokee group in my area, their meetings are a long drive and only one time per month. So if it takes years for them to get to know and or accept me,,, only time will tell.  In the meanwhile perhaps the internet community will accept me on a social level. If this was meant to be,,  it will be.


Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2009, 02:31:46 am »
Update:  The man that I was supposed to talk with about the Echota was not present at the gathering for what ever reason.  I was, able to develop some more information about the split that occurred a few years ago.  The person that I spoke with today related some facts to me.  I have added some other facts to what he told me.  Here as I have indicated in a previous post because I can't document what happened in a legal sense it therefore must be put under a heading labeled here-say. Three or four years ago the Chief of the Echota resigned.  If I remember correctly there was some question of some irregularity which occurred.  I may be remembering wrong on this however. After some time the tribe held another election.  The prior Chief ran as did another.  The election was contested, arguments ensued  evolving into a Cort battle on who was going to be the new Chief and be in control of the Tribes assets.  The judge stepped back so my Friend related to me with a statement along these lines. " You have your own government you fix it your selves"  So I will continue this line of research when I discover more I will up this thread.  "LittleOldMan"
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2009, 12:41:38 pm »
No such thing as an Echota Cherokee Tribal Goverment in Alabama.  Without a Tribal goverment, you can't have a Cherokee Chief.  They are just a bunch of people who may or may not have Cherkoee ancestry.



Here are the real Cherokee Tribes.
Cherokee Nation ( Tahlequah, Oklahoma )
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians ( Tahlequah, Oklahoma )
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians ( Cherokee, North Carolina )

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2009, 03:50:50 pm »
The Echota members can have blood from all tribes who live or lived in Alabama. Some members are Muskove, Seminole while most do have Cherokee blood. I believe that the required blood quantum is still 25%. Documentation is required when you enroll.
I have not been in contact with the tribe in over 5 years, I live in Canada. Its interesting to see the comments about the Echota here. Many members have ancestors on the Baker, Dawes and Gunion Rolls, but chose the Echota. I and I'm sure other Echota, don't have ties to the 3 federal tribes, although they have Cherokee blood. My grandmother is the reason I enrolled after she died. I believe that having Indian blood doesn't make you an Indian, in fact some members of the CNO have 1/264 blood quantum. I have rabid racists who sound like Klansmen, who are enrolled, they are really white racists. My father is black and I have no love for white racists. The last time I was in Alabama was 1965 when I worked for SCLC in Selma and Lownes Country.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2009, 05:39:47 pm »
Quote
The Echota members can have blood from all tribes who live or lived in Alabama. Some members are Muskove, Seminole while most do have Cherokee blood.

Then why are they claiming to be a Cherokee Tribe?

Quote
I believe that the required blood quantum is still 25%.

I doubt it.

Quote
Documentation is required when you enroll.

I was told by someone enrolled with them that family members and/or people that know the potential enrolle can sign a notarized document stating that they know the person to be Cherokee.  So what other documentation are you refering to? What percentage of the enrolled Echotas are documented from Cherokee rolls? 

Quote
Many members have ancestors on the Baker, Dawes and Gunion Rolls, but chose the Echota.

I seriously doubt this statement.  Maybe a handful of people that were mislead into beleiving that the Echotas are a real Tribe.  Can you back this statement up? 


Quote
I believe that having Indian blood doesn't make you an Indian, in fact some members of the CNO have 1/264 blood quantum.


Having NDN blood DOES make you an NDN. Its the conerstone of enrollment of every Federally Recognized Indian Tribe in the country.  It seems to be in fashion these days for Wannabees to critisize the Cherokee Nation and Cherokee citizens with low BQ's.  For me this seems bizare considering the fact that people who claim Cherokee heritage and can't prove it, are really claiming to be the low BQ Cherokees that they are critisizing.  The people in these bogus tribes that actually do have Cherokee ansestry most likely have only a little Cherokee blood.  There may be isolated cases where someone actually does have a full blood Cherokee grandma/Grandpa who can't enroll, but its highly unlikely for someone with a 1/4 Cherokee blood quantum to be unable to enroll in one of the 3 federally recognized Cherokee tribes. 

You seem to confuse and blur the idea of Political Citizenship and being racially and culturally Cherokee. 

 
Quote
I have rabid racists who sound like Klansmen, who are enrolled, they are really white racists

Classical Cherry Picking Fallacy: "act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position"

Quote
My father is black and I have no love for white racists.

Me neither and I'm sure most enrolled Cheokees would agree with that.

Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2009, 08:14:41 pm »
Regarding blood quantum that was the the policy 8 years ago. I haven't had any contact with them since 2002. I don't live in the US, and because I didn't grow up in an Indian community of home, I hardly consider myself to be Cherokee.
Do you believe that Mike Graham is a racist, just about everyone in Indianz.com does, in fact they were going to ban him for his inflammatory use of the "N word" with regard to the president. I was in Oklahoma in the '60 when I was in college. The CNO was totally segregated, black freedmen and mixed bloods even lived in separate towns, went to segregated schools and couldn't eat in the local lunch counters. In fact SNCC had sit ins
on the reservation. from what I saw of the CNO members they were the whitest Indians I ever enocuntered. They have virtually no blood quantum
"Having NDN blood DOES make you an NDN. Its the conerstone of enrollment of every Federally Recognized Indian Tribe in the country.  It seems to be in fashion these days for Wannabees to critisize the Cherokee Nation and Cherokee citizens with low BQ's.  For me this seems bizare considering the fact that people who claim Cherokee heritage and can't prove it, are really claiming to be the low BQ Cherokees that they are critisizing.  The people in these bogus tribes that actually do have Cherokee ansestry most likely have only a little Cherokee blood.  There may be isolated cases where someone actually does have a full blood Cherokee grandma/Grandpa who can't enroll, but its highly unlikely for someone with a 1/4 Cherokee blood quantum to be unable to enroll in one of the 3 federally recognized Cherokee tribes. 
You seem to confuse and blur the idea of Political Citizenship and being racially and culturally Cherokee."


As to documenation birth certificates, baptism etc I must have misunderstood this. Are sugessting that people with 1/264 are racially Indian. I think not.  They are racially white because of the miniscule amount of Indian blood. They may culturally identify witth Indians,  they are white and as I've indicated what I saw was pure unadulterated white racism   

To me its all academic,I'm not an American citizen, and havent been since 1968.

As I said I joined the tribe in 2001 when a long lost cousin approached me. She was Echota and I enrolled because of her influence. I have never gotten any tribal benefits, and because I do not believe in special status or affirmative action, or priviledge base soley on race or ethnicity. I sent admission and scholarship information from the university where I was teaching. I also stopped receiving Smoke Signals, the tribal newsletter when I moved home, so I don't know about the power struggles within the tribe.





Offline Don Naconna

  • Posts: 257
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2009, 08:28:37 pm »
One more point why do you believe that PODIA (1/264) should be eligible while 1/2 bloods who don't have a name on the list denied. I have met many Cherokee at pow wows etc, and I have yet to me any who even appear to be Indian. There is nothing mystical about having 1/264 Indian blood any more than having 1/264 black blood.
If reparations ar ever granted, and people have prove their blood quantum say of 50%, only a small number would qualify.I think that most people who are obsessed with "becoming Indian" are more interested in making or getting money than in actually being an Indian. I would say that if the Indian Gaming Act was not passed that very few people would be interested enrolling.So called Black Indians almost always believe that they deserve the benefits Indians receive. I did once get an invitation to a bass tournament on the Echota land, maybe that was a benefit.

Offline LittleOldMan

  • Posts: 138
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2009, 09:22:34 pm »
This is what the Al. law states about this matter of qualifications for State Tribes   "LittleOldMan"                          Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Amended: Filed April 5, 1995; effective May 10, 1995.



475-X-3-.03 Criteria For Recognition As A Tribe, Band Or Group.

(1) Petitioner must meet all criteria as specified in this section.

(2) Petitioner must present a list of at least two hundred and fifty (250) members of the tribe, band, or group (list must be inclusive by name and addresses), unless this requirement is waived by an affirmative vote of three-fourths (3/4) of the membership of the commission.

(3) Petitioner must present evidence that each of its members is a descendent of individuals recognized as Indian members of an historical Alabama tribe, band, or group found on rolls compiled by the federal government or otherwise identified on other official records or documents. Ancestry charts for each member citing sources of documentation must accompany the petition. Each chart must bear the notarized signature of the individual to whom it pertains. Photocopies of such documentation shall be made available to the commission upon request.

(4) Petitioner must present satisfactory evidence that its members form a kinship group whose Indian ancestors were related by blood and such ancestors were members of a tribe, band or group indigenous to Alabama. This evidence may be the equivalent of the ancestry charts required in Section 3 above.

(5) The petitioner must swear or affirm the following:

(a) No individual holding or eligible for membership in a federally or state recognized tribe, band or group may be accepted for membership in the petitioning group.

NOTE: This requirement is for the protection of members of federally or state recognized tribes who might otherwise forfeit services by becoming members of a non-recognized tribal group.

(b) That the criteria used by the petitioner in determining eligibility of individuals for membership includes but is not limited to the requirement of kinship through Indian ancestors who were members of a tribe indigenous to Alabama.

(6) Evidence must be presented that the petitioning tribe, band or group has been identified with a tribe, band or group from historical times (200 years) until the present as "American Indian" and has a currently functioning governing body based on democratic principles.

(7) Petitioner must include a statement bearing the notarized signatures of the three highest ranking officers of the petitioning tribe, band or group certifying that to the best of their knowledge and belief all information contained therein is true and accurate.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.

History: Filed April 5, 1985. Emergency amendment filed August 28, 1985. Permanent amendment filed November 5, 1985.



475-X-3-.04 Criteria For Recognition As An Indian Association.

(1) To be recognized as an Indian association, the petitioner must show at least a ninety percent of its enrolled members are Indian. The remaining members may be either Indian or non-Indian or members of tribes, bands or groups not recognized by the state or federal government.

(2) Petitioner must present to the commission the association's membership list including the names and addresses of all members and the designated tribal affiliation of its Indian members.

(3) A copy of the bylaws and constitution or purpose clause of the petitioning group must accompany said petition and be received by the commission.

(4) The petitioner must swear or affirm that at least ninety percent of its membership is Indian. No petition shall be granted a hearing where it is shown that the association, its bylaws, or purpose clause is contrary to public policy.

Author: Criteria Committee Draft modified and adopted by Alabama Indian Affairs Commission.

Statutory Authority: Code of Ala. 1975, § 41-9-702.History: Filed April 5, 1985. "LittleOldMan"
Online
This is the State Law Echota must comply with this.  As to BQ @ 25%  this does not sound correct on it's face.  Check their web site.
Blind unfocused anger is unproductive and can get you hurt.  Controlled and focused anger directed tactically wins wars. Remember the sheath is not the sword.

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2009, 10:38:19 pm »
No such thing as an Echota Cherokee Tribal Goverment in Alabama.  Without a Tribal goverment, you can't have a Cherokee Chief.  They are just a bunch of people who may or may not have Cherkoee ancestry.



Here are the real Cherokee Tribes.
Cherokee Nation ( Tahlequah, Oklahoma )
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians ( Tahlequah, Oklahoma )
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians ( Cherokee, North Carolina )



Please then give me your definition of Tribal Government??????
 





Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2009, 02:46:28 am »
Quote
The CNO was totally segregated, black freedmen and mixed bloods even lived in separate towns, went to segregated schools and couldn't eat in the local lunch counters. In fact SNCC had sit ins

I'm well aware of the racisim that went on all over the United States.  The Cherokee Nation was no exception. Yeah there were Cherokees both lightskin and full bloods who were racist against blacks.

Quote
from what I saw of the CNO members they were the whitest Indians I ever enocuntered. They have virtually no blood quantum

Some Cherokees are pretty white.  And you know what.  Some are even blond haired and blue eyed.  I"ve explained this before on different threads.  Since your obviously an outsider of the Tribe and not a citizen of the Cherokee Nation your opinion about our Tribe's enrollment procedures of our soverign Goverment mean absoutly zero to me and most Cherokees.  In other words, this is only the business of enrolled citizens of the Cherokee Nation.  The same goes for the US Goverment and the Freedmen issue.  Only the business of Cherokee Citizens.

Quote
Are sugessting that people with 1/264 are racially Indian. I think not.


Agreed.  Reread my post from before. 

Quote
You seem to confuse and blur the idea of Political Citizenship and being racially and culturally Cherokee."


Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2009, 02:54:22 am »
Quote
One more point why do you believe that PODIA (1/264) should be eligible while 1/2 bloods who don't have a name on the list denied.


Because they are Cherokee by blood with documented Cherokee families.  Not just someone who was told they were Cherokee by Grandma.  Reread what I said above

Quote
There may be isolated cases where someone actually does have a full blood Cherokee grandma/Grandpa who can't enroll, but its highly unlikely for someone with a 1/4 Cherokee blood quantum to be unable to enroll in one of the 3 federally recognized Cherokee tribes.

Quote
I have met many Cherokee at pow wows etc, and I have yet to me any who even appear to be Indian.

Cherokees don't Powwow.  Who you probably met were New Agers and Wannabees playing dress up.

Quote
They are racially white because of the miniscule amount of Indian blood.

Yeah, they are mostly racially white, but are Cherokee by blood.  Reread what I wrote above.

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2009, 02:57:37 am »
Quote
I would say that if the Indian Gaming Act was not passed that very few people would be interested enrolling

There are a few ATM NDNS who do enroll with the Cherokee Nation.  They are the exception though rather then the rule.

Quote
I did once get an invitation to a bass tournament on the Echota land, maybe that was a benefit.

Hahahhaahah.  Ok

Offline BlackWolf

  • Posts: 504
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2009, 03:11:08 am »
Here you go Paul.

True tribes are characterized by having a continuous historic existence as a legal government. Virtually all have treaties with the United States and many with European countries. Accurate rolls, or census, were taken of the members and current members must document their ancestry to a particular roll. Ineligible persons cannot be adopted officially for full citizenship. They can point to a reservation or land base retained or set aside for them that they still generally inhabit.  True Tribal Goverments are Soverign Goverments.

LIke I said before.  The Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama is not a Cherokee Tribe

Offline Paul123

  • Posts: 148
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2009, 09:41:22 am »
Here you go Paul.

True tribes are characterized by having a continuous historic existence as a legal government. Virtually all have treaties with the United States and many with European countries. Accurate rolls, or census, were taken of the members and current members must document their ancestry to a particular roll. Ineligible persons cannot be adopted officially for full citizenship. They can point to a reservation or land base retained or set aside for them that they still generally inhabit.  True Tribal Goverments are Soverign Goverments.

LIke I said before.  The Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama is not a Cherokee Tribe


Accurate rolls my ace.
You know you guys in OK keep this up and it could very well blow up in you faces. The Gov already wants to cut all your funding.

I was talking to a Creek friend last week. After questing her a bit about where her Tribe was located at she told me Georgia. Ah, ha,,, (another one of those State Tribes)I thought. So we talked a bit about what the Creeks in Ok. thought about her State tribe. She said that they weren't Cherokee. There two tribes have a good relationship. And then she had a few words about the damage all of that Task Farce crap was doing to all Tribes that I can't post here. But to sum it up she thinks that it will only result in the Gov. cutting all funding to ALL tribes.

Money is tight, go ahead and give some congressman a good excuse and you guys will wind up being Fake NDN's too. Then what you gonna do?   

I keep hearing about being confused about the difference between Citizenship and ancestry. I have concluded that it is you guys that have confused the difference between a Nation and a Tribe. . For proof I will point out the requirements (posted above by LOM) to be an Tribe in Alabama. If the Echota's have met ALL of those requirements, then the ONLY difference between them and the CNO (other than the money) is which roll is allowed. But I guess that's the difference between a Nation and a Tribe.

Offline bls926

  • Posts: 655
Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2009, 12:31:42 pm »
Here you go Paul.

True tribes are characterized by having a continuous historic existence as a legal government. Virtually all have treaties with the United States and many with European countries. Accurate rolls, or census, were taken of the members and current members must document their ancestry to a particular roll. Ineligible persons cannot be adopted officially for full citizenship. They can point to a reservation or land base retained or set aside for them that they still generally inhabit.  True Tribal Goverments are Soverign Goverments.

LIke I said before.  The Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama is not a Cherokee Tribe


Accurate rolls my ace.
You know you guys in OK keep this up and it could very well blow up in you faces. The Gov already wants to cut all your funding.

I was talking to a Creek friend last week. After questing her a bit about where her Tribe was located at she told me Georgia. Ah, ha,,, (another one of those State Tribes)I thought. So we talked a bit about what the Creeks in Ok. thought about her State tribe. She said that they weren't Cherokee. There two tribes have a good relationship. And then she had a few words about the damage all of that Task Farce crap was doing to all Tribes that I can't post here. But to sum it up she thinks that it will only result in the Gov. cutting all funding to ALL tribes.

Money is tight, go ahead and give some congressman a good excuse and you guys will wind up being Fake NDN's too. Then what you gonna do?   

I keep hearing about being confused about the difference between Citizenship and ancestry. I have concluded that it is you guys that have confused the difference between a Nation and a Tribe. . For proof I will point out the requirements (posted above by LOM) to be an Tribe in Alabama. If the Echota's have met ALL of those requirements, then the ONLY difference between them and the CNO (other than the money) is which roll is allowed. But I guess that's the difference between a Nation and a Tribe.



It's not the Task Force that is causing the damage. It's these groups of descendants who think they have the right to call themselves a Tribe or Nation. It's the PODIA's who think they should have the same rights as an historically recognized Nation. It's the adult-onset Indian, the over-nighter, who thinks they should have sovereign rights. It never ceases to amaze me how arrogant, how presumptuous these people are. Wake up one morning and decide to honor your one long ago Cherokee ancestor and think you have inherent rights. This isn't honoring anyone. This is being self-centered and selfish. You're right, resources are limited. These groups are trying to take these benefits away from those who rightfully deserve them.

Don't know what group in Georgia your friend claims to be enrolled with, but there are only two recognized Creek Nations. The Creek Nation (Oklahoma) and the Poarch Band of Creek Indians (Alabama). They recognize each other as sovereign Nations and no other Creek tribes or bands. (Lower case t and b intentional.) Refer to the thread on the Blackwater Band of Muskogee in Frauds.