Author Topic: Echota Cherokee  (Read 121695 times)

Offline wolfhawaii

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 05:23:40 am »
Yeah, if you want to hang out with distant descendents and wannabes, you might as well save some gas......heck, they might even make you a chief!

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 06:39:03 pm »
Yeah, if you want to hang out with distant descendents and wannabes, you might as well save some gas......heck, they might even make you a chief!

Hahahaha,,, Chief?  ya think,,,

(when ya get through patting yourself on the back for coming up with such a Grrreat response,,, ya might wanta do your homework).



I have heard NDNs say that they could tell a wannabee within the first 30 seconds of a conversation with them. Well I could tell where you were coming from and where you would go with this thread within your first sentence.

"I have not had any direct contact with the "Echota Cherokee tribe of Alabama" so my comments are more general in nature".

OR IN OTHER WORDS:
I don't know what the hell I'm talking about but I'm going to tell you how it is anyway !


Excuse me if I sound grumpy here but it is replies like yours that I made clear from the start of this thread that I had heard before or were of no use because you don't know what your talking about. Your just talking... You proved this when you poked fun at the Cherokees of Central Florida. And I'm not going to tell you why you made such an ass out of your self, I'll let you find out that one for your self.






 

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 07:29:14 pm by Paul123 »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 07:32:14 pm »
Yeah, if you want to hang out with distant descendents and wannabes, you might as well save some gas......heck, they might even make you a chief!

Hahahaha,,, Chief?  ya think,,,

(when ya get through patting yourself on the back for coming up with such a Grrreat responce,,, ya might wanta do your homework).

Paul, do you have any information that would lead us to believe that the people the Alabama Echota group list as "clan chiefs" have any right to this title? It looks to me like the "chiefs" are just the person who leads the local branch of the social group. Unless there's something I'm missing here, it looks to me like when (non-NDN) Boy Scout groups call a group leader a "chief".

Unless they have some unnamed ceremonial or hereditary right to that title that has been granted, and is supported by, the actual elders of real Cherokee Nations, it seems to me to be an inappropriate and, IMHO, offensive thing to call themselves. It's especially misleading when this page: http://echotacherokeetribe.homestead.com/Chiefs.html lists actual historical chiefs of the Cherokee. By using the term in both ways on their website, they are implying that the guys who lead the county-based "clans" have the same right to that title as do the historical, actual Cherokee Chiefs.

From what I can see from this group, wolfhawaii is quite on in his assessment. If there is some "homework" you think we have neglected to do, some information that would change our view, maybe you should share it.



ETA: Wait... when you first posted, it sounded like you were angry because wolfhawaii was criticizing the Alabama group. Now that you've edited your post you seem to be upset about what he thinks about the "Cherokees of Central Florida." What Cherokees of Central Florida? What group are you talking about?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:37:20 am by Kathryn »

Offline taraverti

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 08:57:26 pm »
He's talking about the Cherokees of Central Florida on this list, which is a sattelite community of the CNO, which I told him about. I was trying to be helpful, but I'm beginning to believe he has some hidden agenda.

http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx


Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 09:07:11 pm »
Yeah, if you want to hang out with distant descendents and wannabes, you might as well save some gas......heck, they might even make you a chief!

Hahahaha,,, Chief?  ya think,,,

(when ya get through patting yourself on the back for coming up with such a Grrreat responce,,, ya might wanta do your homework).



Your above quote by wolfhawaii was poking fun about the Cherokees of Central Florida not the Echota Tribe of Alabama.


You ask if I know a good reason that the Echota Tribe have any right to use the titles in question. 

If I did I wouldn't have came here asking about them would I?

But what I was hoping for was someone to discuss their merits and /or faults based on their knowledge of them not based on their dealings with other tribes that anyone would know to be fake. I guess the bad apples have so spoiled the whole barrel of apples that no one really knows the truth.

You ask/said they are implying that the guys who lead the county-based "clans" have the same right to that title as do the historical, actual Cherokee Chiefs.

Why not? if their membership elect them to these positions and follow their lead then sure. That's always been the way. (I'll site Dragging Canoe's split for proof of that) That would be like the EBofNC calling the CNO and asking if it would be OK if they elect one of their members to a given office. of course they are not going to do that. And I dare say that the Echota's won't either. They would (I guess) clear it with the Principle Chief first. I think that these clans are only semi-autonomous.


And to address your last remark about "homework" one more time.
That's what I'm doing here.  Asking for discussion and sorting out the good from the crap.
When someone (wolfhawaii) starts out by saying that they don't know the people that I am asking about but then gives me a biased opinion anyway, I put that into the crap category. I did toss out some bait and sure enough wolfhawaii snatched it right up and made an ass of his self with it. so their is nothing that he could ever say that would make me think that his opinion would ever be anything but crap.

On the other hand, LOM came into the thread and said that he did in fact know of them and that he would ask around and get back when he had something that he believed to be true. This I greatly respect. He knows what he is talking about or will find out before spouting off.

Even if the people here that didn't actually know them but had some source of info (one way or the other) that was believable (and I don't mean that web site posted by the disgruntled crank) I would consider it. I don't discount what the CNO says except that I know they have an agenda. They are just as biased against them as the Tribe itself is biased in favor of themselves.
The CNO gives NO examples of why this Tribe if Fake other than "Their not on the fed list" So that is what I ask for. examples, not crap.

@taraverti
You have been most helpful and respectful. and No I don't have ANY HIDDEN AGENDA.
There is a meeting tomorrow the Cherokees of Central Florida. I have talked to them and was invited to attend. I will be there, with hopes of being welcomed and perhaps over time accepted.  But yes I did use them as bait to help me sort out the ones here that are helpful from the ones spouting crap. 


Offline taraverti

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 09:22:13 pm »

@taraverti
You have been most helpful and respectful. and No I don't have ANY HIDDEN AGENDA.
There is a meeting tomorrow the Cherokees of Central Florida. I have talked to them and was invited to attend. I will be there, with hopes of being welcomed and perhaps over time accepted.  But yes I did use them as bait to help me sort out the ones here that are helpful from the ones spouting crap. 



Paul, that's pretty darn manipulative of you, and not what this forum is about. For whatever it's worth, my reading of wolfhawai's reply to you was NOT to think that it refered at all to the Cherokee of Central Florida. I think you have misjudged in this case and told us a whole lot about you, that you think it's ok to set traps for posters here.

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 09:37:55 pm »

Rattlebone ,

"People like these Echota Cherokee are a burden there as well, because they are causing more backlog in the recognition process".

I don't think they are a backlog burden in the recognition process.
They are not seeking federal recognition, They are quite happy with their relationship with the state of Alabama. (and to be fair,,, I can see why if they are only in it for the money so no need to mention that).


"The quote by Koyoteh is an idea that is not, and should not be used to try and justify a group of people trying to form a tribe based on a "claimed" common ancestry".

Well it sure sounded good when Koyoteh said it. No one seemed to dispute it then.


"For instance it is true that portions of the Cherokee Nation and other tribes from the Southeast did in fact move west before the main body of the tribes were put on the trail of tears. However just because such things did happen, it does not mean a group of people that claim to be from one of those groups can just meet up with other people of the same claims and "form a tribe."

Uhhh? isn't that what the EBNC did? or was it Dragging Canoe?  no wait, I got it ,,, It was the CNO.  or do you mean that they can't do that today instead of 2 or 3 hundred years ago.


Help,, It just dawned on me that I sure seem to be playing the devil's advocate here. It could be that if I were to align with this group and someone pounced on me about it I doubt I would be able to debate the issue if I don't know what all the issues are. each of you have brought up some issues that I need to understand. Don't let my rebuttals lead you to think that I have made up my mind regardless of what anyone says. I don't think that I would enjoy myself very much if every time I turn around I have to debate someone about all of these issues. and after all there are other Tribes a lot closer. Like the Cherokees of Central Florida, They are only 50 to 60 miles from my home instead of 1000. ;) (but I do love a good debate).


 

 You seem to like to compare apples to oranges, and because they are both fruit you declare them the same thing.

 What the EBC did, or what dragging canoe did is not the same thing as maybe some NDN person leaving their tribe over a hundred years ago or something like that, and then their descendant today joining up with somebody with a similar family story thinking they are NDN and trying to form a tribe.

 It just doesn't work that way.

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 10:29:00 pm »
OK I know that I sound like I am defending some group that I don't know much about.
First off I have no agenda, or affiliation with them other than as I said before I have talked to them.  (If I were one of them already I had better have done a better job of defending them that this).

As for wolfhawaii,,,  if he is an honorable man and tells me that he wasn't talking about the Cherokee of Cent. Fla. and that I did miss-read him I will be the first to apologize.
( given my harshness, I doubt that he would accept it.)
If he is honorable and says that he was talking about the Cherokee of Cent. Fla. because he thought they were just another fake bunch, I will still apologize for being so harsh. At this point only he knows what he meant by "you might as well save some gas".

In general I have ask about a given tribe and seem to have gotten the standard rubber stamp replies. So I used your own quotes that sounded correct to help sort it out and then everyone says--- oh , no,, that quote only applies to someone else.

I give up.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 10:47:50 pm by Paul123 »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 11:48:41 pm »
He's talking about the Cherokees of Central Florida on this list, which is a sattelite community of the CNO, which I told him about. I was trying to be helpful, but I'm beginning to believe he has some hidden agenda.

http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx

Good links. Now those are the sort of groups people should be contacting if they don't live near the main population areas. Totally different from the fake tribes.

I think Paul came here hoping he'd get different advice than he'd already received elsewhere. When he heard multiple people agreeing about the problems of fake tribes, he dismissed shared opinions as "rubber stamp". *shrugs* Can't do much about it when someone already has their mind made up, I guess. Hopefully the Central FL people will be able to explain things to him.

Sorry to talk about you in the third person, Paul, if you're still listening. But I think she's right. I do think you came here with a hidden agenda. I hope the Cherokees who are living in FL can help you out.

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2009, 12:59:24 am »
He's talking about the Cherokees of Central Florida on this list, which is a sattelite community of the CNO, which I told him about. I was trying to be helpful, but I'm beginning to believe he has some hidden agenda.

http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx

Good links. Now those are the sort of groups people should be contacting if they don't live near the main population areas. Totally different from the fake tribes.

I think Paul came here hoping he'd get different advice than he'd already received elsewhere. When he heard multiple people agreeing about the problems of fake tribes, he dismissed shared opinions as "rubber stamp". *shrugs* Can't do much about it when someone already has their mind made up, I guess. Hopefully the Central FL people will be able to explain things to him.

Sorry to talk about you in the third person, Paul, if you're still listening. But I think she's right. I do think you came here with a hidden agenda. I hope the Cherokees who are living in FL can help you out.

Kathryn, et al,,,

You have hit the nail right on the head.
Before I came here I had found 2 contradictory opinions on this subject.
That I wanted to sort out.

On the one hand was the info that I had from the tribe it's self. They came to me from a family member that told me that we had relatives there in that Tribe. So I read everything I could from their web site.  A good back story, documented linage from the split led by Dragging Canoe. State acceptance from a State that does have some tough standards. BUT Of course they have a bias. In favor of themselves.

On the other hand there was the CNO's Task force. I read all they had to say but soon began to think to myself,,, WTF??? They think the Lumbee are fake?  I know the Lumbee, personally, Their not "Fake". They may not be recognized but their not fake.  At the end of my street is my best friend (and the guitar player in our band). We have known and lived and played together for 35 years. I discussed this with him and he was surprised to learn that the CNO thinks their fake.
So:
I talked with a family member that is enrolled in the CNO and grew up with the Tribe in OK. He explained that it was all about the money. There is only so much money to go around the more NDN's the smaller their slice of pie. He said that if there was more money every time the CNO enrolled another Cherokee that you could bet your last dollar that they would be enrolling anyone that even said that they had a ggGrandmother that wore a pair of moccasins once. (he was just being funny on that but I understood).

So a web search started. The short of it is that I wound up here.

The different advice that I was hoping for here was that someone (or more) would say that they do know them and to stay away because they did this and they did that or they said this,, here is a link go look for yourself, you don't want to get in the middle of that...
or
Yea we know them their as OK as the Lumbee (or what ever other Tribe that has fell through the cracks in the BIA's floor). Like I said before LOM was the only one that said that He would check it out first.

 What I heard here was,,,  Oh yea they are a Fake tribe, just take my word for it. The CNO said so. and besides the poster just before me said so too. And the thread turned into a debate where I found myself defending a group that I don't know anything (much) about.

Because I would read one of you say something that sounded very valid but when applied here it would be pointed out that that was wrong. (by the same person that said it in the first place) Did I set a trap? yes that's what you do in a debate. I wish this thread had not have came to a debate but had remained a discussion. 

"When he heard multiple people agreeing about the problems of fake tribes, he dismissed shared opinions as "rubber stamp".

I wasn't asking about the problems with Fake Tribes,, I was only asking about this one Tribe .
And I took the replies about all of the other fake tribes and became defensive. If not down right offensive. And yes I through a trap to see if anyone here would know the difference between all of the fake tribes and the real ones.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:38:26 am by Kathryn »

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2009, 01:01:12 am »
OK I know that I sound like I am defending some group that I don't know much about.
First off I have no agenda, or affiliation with them other than as I said before I have talked to them.  (If I were one of them already I had better have done a better job of defending them that this).

As for wolfhawaii,,,  if he is an honorable man and tells me that he wasn't talking about the Cherokee of Cent. Fla. and that I did miss-read him I will be the first to apologize.
( given my harshness, I doubt that he would accept it.)
If he is honorable and says that he was talking about the Cherokee of Cent. Fla. because he thought they were just another fake bunch, I will still apologize for being so harsh. At this point only he knows what he meant by "you might as well save some gas".

In general I have ask about a given tribe and seem to have gotten the standard rubber stamp replies. So I used your own quotes that sounded correct to help sort it out and then everyone says--- oh , no,, that quote only applies to someone else.

I give up.



  Well since you quoted me..I can say that I have never ever supported a bogus tribe made up of people that claim some distant ancestor and think they can form a "tribe" because of it.

 I have supported mixed people, and those of a  distant ancestry if they wish to acknowledge such ancestry, and learn the culture they claim to come from and take part it in. If they do this in a good and respectful way. Getting together and saying they have a "tribe," or trying to create one is not doing things in a respectful way.


Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 01:12:54 am »
Rattlebone,

I won't debate you on what you said vs what you meant. but it was you that through out this forum that seemed the most open when it came to this such thing. And well worded I might add.
I think that we both posted at about the same time so just read my post above and like I said before

I give up.

Offline Rattlebone

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2009, 01:25:21 am »
Rattlebone,

I won't debate you on what you said vs what you meant. but it was you that through out this forum that seemed the most open when it came to this such thing. And well worded I might add.
I think that we both posted at about the same time so just read my post above and like I said before

I give up.


 Through out this forum I have argued in defense of mixed people and those of even distant ancestry and their involvement in the Indian community if such things are done in a good way by them. In fact that is not much different then what most on here say either. I just might be less rigid in how I define people then others on here.

 When I have argued in defense of actual tribes who may not have federal recognition, and might only have state recognition, it has been in the defense of those who do have historical documentation that prove they are a tribe and have been since days of old.

 I admit I don't always agree with the federal recognition process, but that does not mean I agree with people forming their own tribes.

 Those people that have started off being state recognized have usually to some degree maintained an actual tribal community since historical times. This is very different then a group of people that say they have a ggggggg grandmother or grandfather that was part of Dragging Canoe's band, and therefore get together and "form a new tribe."


 Here is a list of federal requirements to be recognized as a tribe

 To be federally recognized a group must meet the following:

    To be federally recognized a group must meet the following:

    Since 1900, it must comprise a distinct community and have existed as a community from historical times;
    * it must have political influence over its members;
    * it must have membership criteria; and
    * it must have membership that consists of individuals who descend from a historical Indian tribe and who are not enrolled in any other tribe." The existence of persistent political relationship as an aspect of tribal relations is also emphasized



What is a federally recognized tribe?
A federally recognized tribe is an American Indian or Alaska Native tribal entity that is recognized as having a government-to-government relationship with the United States, with the responsibilities, powers, limitations, and obligations attached to that designation, and is eligible for funding and services from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Furthermore, federally recognized tribes are recognized as possessing certain inherent rights of self-government (i.e., tribal sovereignty) and are entitled to receive certain federal benefits, services, and protections because of their special relationship with the United States.  At present, there are 564 federally recognized American Indian and Alaska Native tribes and villages.



http://www.doi.gov/bia/ia_faqs.html
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 01:28:34 am by Rattlebone »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2009, 01:36:36 am »
Hi Paul

I hope you don't give up, but you do seem to have some ideas about what a tribe is that suggest you haven't spent much time in a real tribal community. There are elements of continuity and being completely immersed and surrounded with people who share the same heritage and culture which just can't be recreated.It seems kind of like trying to recreate a living tree with a bunch of branches.

Maybe it's kind of like fishing. Until you expereince a real fish on the end of your line it's easy to imagine you are going to have a delious meal when all you got is a snag in some bottom mud...

I think wolfhawaii Kathyrn and Rattlebone gave you some good advice. See if there is some way you can spend some time making yourself useful in an undisputedly real Cherokee community.

Like rattlebone just pointed out , there is objective criteria which defines a tribe from a group of descendents , but this doesn't have anything to do with how nice the people are, or if someone else likes them.  Even if the person who likes them is someone you have a great deal of respect for they could still be swayed by personal feelings.

I don't doubt there was many individuals who passed as white or black who were of some Native descent, but in most situations it seems really unlikely there was whole tribal communities that hid out ( and retained their identity ) without being noticed and recorded as such for the past 150 years.

Were the Echota Cherokee were recorded as a tribe 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago , 80 , 100 , 120, 150 years ago?

Can the people claiming to be Echota Cherokee prove they descend from the people who were repeatedly recorded as a part of this alleged Cherokee community?

I think most people familiar with this subject would agree a tribe is always / almost always a continously recognized community and consisting of people who can prove descent from this community .

Quote
He explained that it was all about the money.

I guess that might be a bias , but without substantial recorded historical evidence of a tribe that was the Echota Cherokee, it's kind of like saying people don't believe in UFO's because they are scarey.... That may be true, but it doesn't logically follow there is little green men.
 
Quote
They think the Lumbee are fake?  I know the Lumbee, personally, Their not "Fake". They may not be recognized but their not fake.

Well actually , that one is kind of confusing.... Some affiliated people in the area do seem to have been documented as a tribe, but if this website claiming to show results of a DNA study that was done of on the people claiming to be Lumbee is legit ( maybe it isn't ? ) .. It gets less clear, as very few of the matrilineal or patrilineal lines show Native decsent.

http://www.huxford.com/Genetics_Lumbee_Results.htm

The mtDNA that originated on this continent is A ,B, C, D and some types of X and I believe the only Y DNA  that seems to have originated here is Q.

I doubt a population with this small of an indigenous input is really an indigenous tribe. Which I know is strange , as the Lumbee sound like they have a strong case and a lot of records showing they exist and were thought to be an Indian tribe for a long time.

I was recently reading how there was quite a few people who were brought to the East coast as servants or slaves from India,

http://thestudyofracialism.org/about5820.html

Quote
Social historian Thomas Brown, a faculty member at Lamar University, Beaumont, Texas has corroborated this in a 2004 research paper. Brown explains that many East Indians were imported to the American colonies by way of England, arriving already Christianized and fluent in English. Others arrived as slaves who had been captured and sold. “It is impossible to confidently estimate the size of the South Asian population in the Western Shore counties, but “East Indians” outnumber “Indians” in the extant colonial records after 1710 or so,” acknowledges Brown.

Furthermore, he claims: ‘In 18th century Chesapeake, South Asians stood out from sub-Saharan slaves both in culture and appearance. Since South Asians were a minority among the slave population, the community’s perception of their distinctiveness persisted for a longer period of time.' And most surprisingly, Brown adds: ‘there was a significant contingent of “East Indian” slaves in the colonial Chesapeake.’

I suppose that might explain some of these groups who are identified as tri racial isloates , ( the Lumbee)...

It is a really complex issue. But you seem to be making a sincere effort to try and get it figured out....
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 01:40:19 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Paul123

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Re: Echota Cherokee
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2009, 02:03:49 am »
"It is a really complex issue. But you seem to be making a sincere effort to try and get it figured out.... "


"Were the Echota Cherokee were recorded as a tribe 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago , 80 , 100 , 120, 150 years ago?

Edid: I did find that the State of Ala. requires proof for the past 200 years. they must have it of the state wouldn't recognize them.

Can the people claiming to be Echota Cherokee prove they descend from the people who were repeatedly recorded as a part of this alleged Cherokee community?"


They say that they can with the exception of some years when the State of Alabama outlawed being NDN. That is why they can't get fed status. They have records showing 40 (I think)  families moving into an area and just blending in (passing) till the laws were changed. And others of course just married whites.

But, never mind... back to the "I give up thingy..."
It's not worth it I am defending and answering questions about a group who's only source of info is from their web site.

I came here to find answers, not give them. I had hoped you guys had heard of them.

Edit to add link : http://www.alabamaadministrativecode.state.al.us/docs/iaff/3iaff.htm
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 02:18:59 am by Paul123 »