Author Topic: Burrows Cave  (Read 61913 times)

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2009, 02:05:32 am »
Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.
The location is referred to only as "it" and "ancestor shrine". Your interpretation of an above-ground location offers no material evidence found to support that statement. If an above ground ancestor shrine was found in that area, your statement would hold merit. However, the only ancestor shrine in that area was in a cave, and that is known as Burrows cave today.

"Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which."

You are wrong on both counts. I am not a victim nor participant in a fraud ring.

"What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?"
The topic of this forum is the Burrows Cave, not me. If you really want to know you can contact me off list.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2009, 03:28:20 am »
[i}Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.[/i]
The location is referred to only as "it" and "ancestor shrine". Your interpretation of an above-ground location offers no material evidence found to support that statement. If an above ground ancestor shrine was found in that area, your statement would hold merit. However, the only ancestor shrine in that area was in a cave, and that is known as Burrows cave today.

Hell, Bubo, they haven't even located the city, little less the remains of the ancestor shrine. And none of this changes the fact that both Mississippian and coastal Algonquin peoples had above ground ancestor shrines. They were not caves, and to my knowledge no one used caves as ancestor shrines.

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

You are wrong on both counts. I am not a victim nor participant in a fraud ring.


You are either an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're of its willing victims. The only question is which.

What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?
The topic of this forum is the Burrows Cave, not me. If you really want to know you can contact me off list.

Well, since you also tried to promote Norse/Algonquin hyper diffusion hypothesis at the wikipedia Walam Olum discussion, I could ask Doug Weller, and perhaps he could give me his version of your life/or interests.

What led you to the Norse-Algonquin hyper diffusion hypothesis, and when?

Obviously you have spent a long time working on it.


BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2009, 11:24:40 am »
"they haven't even located the city, little less the remains of the ancestor shrine. And none of this changes the fact that both Mississippian and coastal Algonquin peoples had above ground ancestor shrines. They were not caves, and to my knowledge no one used caves as ancestor shrines."

Wrong - Caves were commonly used by the Missisippian and Coastal Algonquian peoples. In southern Illinois there are three other caves that were elaborately decorated with petroglyphs - inside and out. These include Korondo, The Throne, and Tooth cave.

Please stop your personal attacks against me Mr. Grondine.

Obviously the Norse hypothesis was brought up in discussion by Myron Payne's citation.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2009, 08:51:12 pm »
Wrong - Caves were commonly used by the Missisippian and Coastal Algonquian peoples. In southern Illinois there are three other caves that were elaborately decorated with petroglyphs - inside and out. These include Korondo, The Throne, and Tooth cave.

Bubo, has anyone else other than you ever examined Korondo, Throne and Tooth caves?

In any case, a few glyphs or pictoglyphs in any cave are not an "ancestor shrine"; we have both descriptions and drawings of ancestor shrines.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 09:35:05 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2009, 11:22:57 pm »

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 08:14:01 pm »

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.

Hi educated indian -

I hope Vincent has not threatened to sue you or NAFPS. As you can see from Flavin's account of Burrows and his associates, that is a standard tactic for that bunch - they are audacious.

Given Vincent Jay Barrow's strong endorsement of their fraud, that either leaves him an active participant OR a willing victim.

There is an  "OR" in that statement. I go with "willing victim" so far.

But in Vincent's case, looking on the interent for the caves he cited, one is left wondering...

Vincent, what the hell have you been doing in these caves? Who's been going with you?

On the subject of graves, I sure would like to find John Moss's.

E.P. Grondine
Amazing Stories


« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:17:33 pm by E.P. Grondine »

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2009, 06:01:26 pm »
For others interested, caves are often used as ancestor shrines as shown in the information cited about Ancestor Shrines. (J.G. Frazier : http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm )
It is clearly described about the Ancestor Shrine at the BC location in DeSoto Chronicles. Grondine sidesteps this fact by saying it must have been above ground with no evidence to support that opinion, and then claims that we do not know the location. Even though Grondine says the DeSoto Chronicles Ancestor shrine was at Vincennes, Indiana.  

I have many Issues with Grondines argument:
Grondine: Stop making false accusations of lawsuits. Stop make accusations of criminal behavor, without basis. Stop your accusations of victimizing, without any evidence. Stop using my name without permission.
Yet, Grondine thinks I will reveal more information about the southern Illinois Caves to him after all these insults and accusations?

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« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 06:04:36 pm by BuboAhab »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2009, 08:42:01 pm »

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

.

That's a pretty strong accusation, esp the first half. If you accuse someone of being a criminal, you need to provide proof.

Hi educated indian -

I hope Vincent has not threatened to sue you or NAFPS. As you can see from Flavin's account of Burrows and his associates, that is a standard tactic for that bunch - they are audacious....


No, there has been no threats to sue or other threats either. I'm simply asking you what I'd ask anyone else for.

If there's proof of someone being a criminal, then we must insist you show proof. Otherwise it's an irresponsible accusation.

And if there is a law being broken, why haven't you gone to the authorities?

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2009, 02:27:56 pm »
And if there is a law being broken, why haven't you gone to the authorities?

Hi educated indian -

As you know, there is no federal or state law against manufacturing NDN history or artifacts, just as there are no laws against many of the spiritual frauds reported here at NAFPS. Thus the reason for NAFPS.

There is no law against being made a victim of these frauds either.

The only laws that apply are commercial fraud laws, and that requires the victims to press civil suit, which they seldom do.

Now perhaps I have not shown Bubo's hypothesis that the superior Algonquin people carried their advanced culture and language to the backward Aryan Norse people sufficient respect...

but that would not change the fact that the Burrown's cave objects are frauds, and will continue to remain frauds no matter how much legitimate material Bubo surrounds them with.

The evidence of this fraud is too large for a short e-mail. You've read "Amazing Stories", and if anyone else here wants a copy of it, then PM me.

But for this specific mattter of Burrrows and Collin the link given above to Flavin's article should set the matter straight.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 03:34:47 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2009, 03:27:40 pm »
Bubo -

I've asked you for evidence of caves used as ancestor shirines.

You respond with a page showing legitimate tokens of rank (the Cahokia "tablets"),
and Andaste/RedOchre/Glacial Kame palettes for tatoo pigment or blow gun tip poison preparation (other "tablets"),
and the Burrow's frauds, along with bad place name work.

In my book, which you referred to, I passed on Le Page du Pratz's and others descriptions of Mississippian ancestor shrines.
The coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines are well known from the colonists descriptions of them.
Hudson's work is now the standard for De Soto's route.

Loooking for the caves you mentioned , I found Marburg72, which appears to be you as well. "Vincent Jay Barrows" of Louisianna, I presume?

Looking at your images...

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 04:58:35 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2009, 03:23:18 pm »
I wonder if the language of the Indian Craft Act might apply in the Burrows "artifact"  case, even though it was not written for this purpose. I am not familiar with its specifics, nor with who enforces it.


BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2009, 02:52:07 am »
Ed, you still have not offered any evidence that the "burrows cave" relics are "frauds".

Please provide proof and not just opinion.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2009, 11:02:15 pm »
Let's start at the top, Vince:
"3. Ed's opinion of "frauds" is based on no factual evidence."

Several of the moderators here have read my expose of the entire ring's operations. For those who haven't, here's Rick Flavin reporting on that small part of it, as much as you want:
http://www.flavinscorner.com/twist.htm

And yeah, its all true, I re-checked it myself. And no one can accuse Rick of having an anti-diffusionist bias.

Do you know where John Moss died, Vince? For that matter, the chemist who moved between the US and British Columbia is also of interest.

So, Vince, did Burrows plunder a site, or did he manufacture fake Indian artifacts? The first should fall under NAGPRA, the second under the Crafts act (I hope). Then of course there's the matters of the Slack Farm looting, and the outright commercial frauds, should anyone care to bring civil suits.

"1. Norse - Algonquian cognates were covered by Sherwin."

Cognates can be illusory, Vince, particularly for those who want to see them.

There's no artifacts showing any early links. Getting down to it, the idea that superior Aryan Norse educated the ignorant Algonquin is racist in the extreme.

And as a matter of fact, when the Europeans showed up around 350 CE, the Three Fires took off for the west.

"2. Read the copper trade routes in Lori's Presentation on page 2, then see poverty point, Wulfing plates, copper plates, etc."

The source Lori used for her presentation did not even know of Copper Hill Tennessee copper, Vince.

Poverty Point copper most likely came from there, along with other minerals.

Yes, the Mississippian peoples valued copper plates. Besides Spiro, you can see that massively at Etowah, near to Copper Hill, Tennesee.

But mixing real artifacts with Burrows' frauds does no good, for if there was a massive copper trade from Lake Superior down the Mississippi River the Natchez tradition keepers would have remembered it, Vince, and they did not.

"4. Geological Caves in southern Illinois were far more common that Ed would have us know."

Has anybody seen any of the specific caves you mentioned except for you, Vince? Even if they have, that's a long way from showing that they were ancestor shrines. And an even further distance from Burrows' entirely imaginary cave.

"5. Welch Butterfly is authentic. And someone will probably take another close look at the cast of the relic and prove its importance as a colonial Mayan engraving, just as I have done."

I doubt your opinion on that. My guess is that the inscribing tools were in English units. Further, the tool marks left by metal versus stone tools are distinctly different. If you have any expertise in this area you have not mentioned it to us.

And by the way, the classic Maya emerge about 4,000 years after the 4,300 BC date you cited for the Welch Butterfly.

"6. Hudson's map is far from complete. Did De Soto have a GPS device, Ed?"

Personally, Vince, I have not heard of a major Mississippian complex at Harrisburg. The Bison skulls at Casqui indicate either Vincennes or Kaskaskia for its location, both of which are on their migration route.

But then you have to show how your proposed route matches the known itineraries, and further a site for Pacaha, with El Dorado (Cahokia) to the west.

If Kaskaskia was Casqui, as you posit, then El Dorado could not have been Cahokia, as you also posit. The itineraries rule it out.

"7. Ignoring evidence seems to be the trend here, and as this thread has devolved into No-its-not, Yes-it-is, We should leave it at that."

I'm sorry, Vince, but we can't leave it at that, as Burrows et al committed one crime or the other, and from all indications several other civil crimes as well, including misrepresenting military service. Leaving out the Slack Farm looting entirely.

Yes, ignoring evidence that contradicts your hypothesis is something that you do well. Like ignoring all radiocarbon data, all stratigraphic data, and the sequence at the Modoc Rock Shelter, just down river from Cahokia.

Now why does Modoc Rock Shelter culture resemble Old Copper Culture, Vince, but there's no copper and no copper tools? This is completely unlike the Andaste copper trade routes to the east, where copper and copper tools abound.

Try because Modoc was early Glacial Kame culture, and there was nearly no copper trade down the Mississippi River from Lake Superior until after ca. 1,000 BCE, and most of that stopped a short time later. The "Oneota" showed up, you see.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 11:47:15 pm by E.P. Grondine »

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2009, 02:05:23 am »
1. Ed's source, flavin's corner, has no scientific basis. Anyone that reads it will quickly find out that it is pure garbage, tabloid style filth. An example of what I would consider much more reliable is
http://www.pittpaths.com/st/0084.htm
2. Any idea why Ed keeps bringing up John Moss?
3. Ed, Did the IHPA plunder Monks Mound with Backhoes? Destruction is forever.
4. Cognates are evidence, Artifacts that show links include such as lobed blades, microblades, morrow mountain points, etc
5. Ed'd accusations of "racism" are just as far afield as his acceptance of the work of flavin.
6. Ed's "copper hill" source could easily be proven by metallurgical analysis. However, it was already proven to be from upper Michigan. There are no ancient mines in Copper Hill Tennessee, in fact it is a modern pit mine. There are many ancient mines in Upper Michigan.
7. "the Natchez tradition keepers would have remembered it, Vince, and they did not." That is because it happened around 5000 years ago.
8. Yes, others have seen the caves including the IAS after I told them about the "cave near Murphysboro, which contains the only known (*of unproven time frame) charcoal and ocher "cave art" drawings in Illinois."
http://illarchsurvey.org/member_com/Mtg_2007_announce.html
* Removed "Mississippian" because there was absolutely no study done on this claim, just as the chronology that Ed's sources state are presenting misinformation, ignoring evidence, and perpetuating a paradigm with no support.
9. Ed is making assumptions about "tool marks with no evidence to support his mere conjecture.
10. Ed's further assumption that in 300 AD, the "classic Maya emergence" in Mesoamerica must have been contemporary with the date that the bannerstone engraving is also mere conjecture. The 4300 date is based on the work of Bannerstone expert David Lutz.
11.Ed, Read the De Soto chronicles. First he had no idea where he was, just going around killing, and pillaging cities. Second, he went to four cities that were surrounded by multiple stockades, just as Cahokia had. The itineraries confirm a visit to the largest mound, the largest city in the country, which matched Cahokia.
12, Ed still has not presented any evidence to support his opinion.
13, Now why are you changing the subject to Modoc Rock Shelter?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 02:48:35 am by BuboAhab »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2009, 07:03:30 pm »
Why do some people continue to construct imaginary European empires in the Americas? I'm no psychologist, but I think it lies in guilt over the theft of the lands.

If you haven't read "Amazing Stories" yet, pm me and I'll send you a copy. I'm up to revision 14. It's everything that Vince claims, and much much more; besides the Burrows-Collin material, which is really only a very small part of it, its a real sewer, one that flows through every Barnes and Nobles and Borders in the nation.

The last thing they steal is your history.