Author Topic: Burrows Cave  (Read 62286 times)

BuboAhab

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Burrows Cave
« on: July 09, 2009, 01:15:41 am »
Recently on the Walam Olum Page, Ed Grondine brought up the subject of the Burrows Cave objects.

I do not consider myself an expert on the Burrows Cave. My knowledge of the cave is limited to some correspondence with Russell Burrows over email, and on the research of aboriginal tablets (over 30,000).

I have read that many of the Burrows Cave Stones were made from natural concretions carved with faces. On a recent visit to the Seneca and Iroquois National Museum, there was a display about Concretions representing the heads of their ancestors. Coincidence? Supporting evidence?

I am sure that those familiar with the Burrows Cave stones will be well familiar with the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal. These arguments of rumor and deceipt are uninteresting to me because I prefer to look at objects objectively. When reviewing Subjective Vrs Objective views, the objective views are much more scientific.

I am more interested in studying the stones in effort to decipher them as well as learn what we can from them.

For example, site management at the Cahokia Mounds site told me that they spoke with Russell Burrows, who brought in some of the engraved stones. Site managament stated that Russell Burrows was a "weird, strange person". I prefer to stay away from opinions about people and stick to any facts that we can talk about regarding objects.

I do not know where the cave is, but if the area is nearby Olney, then that is almost directly east of the Cahokia Mounds site. The east direction would correspond equinox which was significant to many ancient people.

When I visited the Smithsonian institute, I had a rare opportunity to tour the collections behind the scenes. Among the Illinois artifacts were two tablets from Rockford, illinois. One had a sun face symbol at the top, with 12 figures around the edges of the stone. The tablet bears a close resemblance to an engraved square gold piece from Burrows Cave (the Tomb of the Embarrass River). When Asked about the Burrows Cave Artifact resemblance to the Rockford Sun Tablet, Russell Burrows replied:
The one on the right; gold from Burrows cave is not really gold. A mold was made of each piece of gold, They were each weighed then a cast was made of pure lead and then painted gold. The purpose was to have them for display in Jack Wards museum. They were to have been labeled as replicas and not gold but, they were not. When I found out about it, the museum was closed. The real gold pieces are still in the vaults in the burial crypts and are safe there. Actually the number of artifact recovered is maybe 7000 to 8000 or 9000. Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.-Russ Burrows"

Otherwise, I noticed a similarity between the shape of Burrows Cave Relics and the shape of border stones from Iraq called Kuddrus. Kuddrus date to around 1500BC, which would be roughly correct for the linguistic forms found on the Burrows Cave pieces.
http://www.72languages.com/burrowscave.php

Kuddrus Can be compared with burrows cave stones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudurru

Any Comments are welcome.

Vince Barrows

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 03:00:23 am »
BuboAhab -

It is a shame to see your excellent observation on the Piqua tablet and your observations on wampum use compromised by this fraud.

Objectively, you've had your time wasted by con men.

When pressed about these, Burrows has come up with different stories for some 30 years now. When cornered on one story, he has come up with another, wasting many peoples' time.

The facts, and those are FACTS of Burrows/Collin et al., demonstrate fraud,  though those responsible for the manufacture of these frauds have not been caught red handed at it yet. Until criminal complaints are filed, and a criminal investigation begun, that is where things will stand, baring a death bed confession, or a dumped wife/girlfriend/boyfriend or irate neighbor spilling the beans.

In this case, the evidence requires the Burrows Cave "artifacts" to be labeled a FRAUD until proven otherwise. Which would be an easy thing for Burrows to do, were it not for the fact that they are frauds.

As far as any similarity in symbols with anything else goes, the late Barry Fell pointed out that whoever was manufacturing these frauds stole from his work,  and he called them "a bunch of crooks". You will learn nothing from these frauds besides where they lifted their symbols from.

If you wish to contact me, I have documented the histories of the ring of con men who promoted this fraud.

(Educated Indian, I believe you already have enough evidence in hand to move the Burrows Cave "artifacts" to FRAUD. You can sum it up better than I can.)

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas, and
Amazing Stories - a guide inside the fringe

PS - My offer to Oestreicher for a trade still stands. As does the mention of Dr. Ward at Pendleton.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 07:45:30 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 06:23:59 pm »
The con men behind this fraud are convinced:

1) No one cares
2) No one is interested
3) No one has the guts to call them down - no one will call them for fear of lawsuits
4) That when caught, nothing will happen to them.

Whatever may be said about them, its not so much that they're audacious, as they think their victims are  stupid. The greater the intelligence of their victim, the bigger the thrill they get in the con.

Well, people of Native American heritage are all around them, Bubo.

They're doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants; same occupations as other people. They don't all work for casinos or the BIA or making mocasins. They also work for the FBI, DEA, other federal agencies, and closer to home, in both state and county law enforcement.

In other words, they're surrounded.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:37:53 pm by E.P. Grondine »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 10:34:53 pm »
I am sure that those familiar with the Burrows Cave stones will be well familiar with the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal. These arguments of rumor and deceipt are uninteresting to me because I prefer to look at objects objectively. When reviewing Subjective Vrs Objective views, the objective views are much more scientific.

Yes, Bubo, they are familiar. But "the outraged cries of hoax and fraud and all sorts of scandal" is the old line used to refer to journalist Rick Flavin's expose of Frank Joseph Collin and Russell Burrows.

The new line is "rant", which is used by these con artists to refer to my own expose of them, "Amazing Stories". That's the whole sheband, running from cult leader Richard Kieninger, to his business partner David Hatcher Childress (World Explorer Magazine), to Frank Joseph Collin (of Skokie march infamy), To Russell Burrows (Collin's jailer in Pontiac), to Wayne May of "Ancient American" (our confused Mormon bishop who promotes Richard Kieninger's cult), to Duncan Roads of NEXUS (Muhamar Qadifi's man in Melbourne), to Herman Hegge (Frontier Sciences in Amsterdam) student of Hitler's ties to the occult.

Judging from the advertisements in his magazine, Doug Kenyon (Atlantis Rising) is deeply involved with this ring as well.

Some of the moderators here at NAFPS have read "Amazing Stories", and enjoyed it :
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1538.0

It is also know to others as well, and more than a few are not happy.

As a "scholar" of these "tablets" you have told us much, and you can tell use much much more.

"Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.-Russ Burrows"

Well now, since "tablets" were shown and represented as being from the burial crypts to the AAAPF, then Burrows lied to them and you're repeating his lies here at NAFPS.

We do not lie.

E.P. Grondine
"Man and Impact in the Americas"
and
"Amazing Stories"




« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:46:17 pm by E.P. Grondine »

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 01:46:04 am »
[Carried over from the Walam Olum Site, Because the majority of this pertains to the BC topic and Not the WO]

Yes, I noticed his request, and I noticed your earlier statement of having seen 30,000 tablets. The number of real tablets is far less. Thus I'm fairly certain you have seen all of Mt. Burrow's and his associates forgeries. Of course you may have made a mistatement or simply made a typo...

30,000 is and old tally, the correct updated number is 45479 engraved stones, and this list is detailed on my Entableture study.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm

But given your own nature as revealed by the scope, intensity, and range of your search, and the lack of judgment with which you handle evidence, and their nearness to you, I am pretty certain that you have made your way to them, as we can see immediately below.

“Lack of judgment” to you seems to be your way of objecting to my complete list of tablets. You would prefer an incomplete list with selective sampling based on what someone else said?  So If I remove from the complete list anything that someone else at one time or another said something bad about, how much would be left? For sure it would eliminate most of these examples, including many which were found by professionals in archaeological digs. It would also eliminate any engraved script, as long as it was found in the area of the United States because “Indians had no written language”. You see, Paradigms show that opinions change over time, and at one time nearly every unusual relic has had negative opinions expressed about it by one person or another. Leaving out these examples because of what someone once said is not good science.
Sorry to ruin your suspicion but you are wrong that I have made my way to the burrows cave “con-men”.

Once again, you leave out the key information. Which Chief, which people, and which river?
The key information was included in the statement.  Which Chief it was by 1804 certainly was influenced widely by European invasion, and the evacuations from native lands.
You can find out here: “but I will focus on an encounter that began October 8, 1804, and continued for five days at the Sahnish villages along the banks of the Missouri and Grand Rivers in present-day South Dakota.”
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/wicazo_sa_review/v019/19.1bird.html

The key point here is that either Mr. Burrows and his associates have desecrated a major burial, as they would have us believe, or they have been manufacturing fake NDN history.

In your judgment, Bubo Ahab, which is it?

You have already indicated your opinion that I have “lack of judgment”, so why do you ask about my judgment? That would be a contradiction. However, In response to your question, I think several of the artifacts that were photographed from the cave resemble other artifacts that I have seen in the Smithsonian Institute vaults. From my research (J.G. Frazier), the description matches ancestral shrine / storehouse for ancestral stones.

Because of the time of separation. You may not have noticed my mention in this thread of common Great Turtle traditions, and very early common ancestry.
Great traditions cause time separations to be irrelevant. (They can be held for thousands of years without changing a bit. )

While I thank you for calling to our attention to these engravings, why are you referring to them as "Ketika figurines"?
Because that is what Carl Schuster and Edmund Carpenter in their Book “social Symbolism of Tribal art” called them. Later I found out that the linguistic meanings are quite interesting.

I also want to thank you for your excellent images of the tablets from Cahokia.
And your reports of the desecration which went on there.

Your welcome. However, the desecration of America’s largest mound is something I wish that I did not witness. Hopefully awareness will help this not ever happen again.

But Bubo Ahab, its simply the lack of boundaries, the way you lump it all together, that is your deficit, in my opinion.
With all due respect, you lumped a lot of information together in your book, putting it all into one cover. Is that a deficit or strength?


I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

I do not want this thread locked.

Me neither, so lets try to carry on a civil conversation please.


I am fairly certain that Bubo has run into him and knows him quite well. If he searches into his soul, he will be able to identify him to us.


Sorry to disappoint you but I really don’t know who it is you are looking for.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 01:56:06 am by BuboAhab »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 02:24:34 am »
The key point here is that either Mr. Burrows and his associates have desecrated a major burial, as they would have us believe, or they have been manufacturing fake NDN history.

In your judgment, Bubo Ahab, which is it?


You have already indicated your opinion that I have “lack of judgment”, so why do you ask about my judgment? That would be a contradiction. However, In response to your question, I think several of the artifacts that were photographed from the cave resemble other artifacts that I have seen in the Smithsonian Institute vaults. From my research (J.G. Frazier), the description matches ancestral shrine / storehouse for ancestral stones.

So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.

That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 12:55:49 pm »
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.
That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.

In my opinion those responsible for destroying Monks Mound with backhoes should be arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail. If people had respect for graves, then this would not have happened.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/
http://www.scribd.com/Marburg72
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound.htm
http://www.world-pyramids.com/atr/usa/monkmound.html
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/
http://www.moundabout.com/IL.htm
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 02:12:12 am by BuboAhab »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 03:06:56 am »
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.
That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.

In my opinion those responsible for destroying Monks Mound with backhoes should be arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail. If people had respect for graves, then this would not have happened.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/
http://www.scribd.com/Marburg72
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound.htm
http://www.world-pyramids.com/atr/usa/monkmound.html
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/
http://www.moundabout.com/IL.htm

Monks Mound was not "destroyed", Bubo, though the destruction of that part of its remains was indeed a travesty. I had thought that those responsible for it had already been fired; if not, then I am sorry to hear that.

But you're evading the question by trying to change the subject, which is Russell Burrows and his associates, and their fate.

Over on the Walam Olum thread, you mentioned your database of "tablets".
Here at NAFPS, we have our own database; it contains con men; some of them the most despicable con men in the nation, people who steal spirituality.

Over on the Walam Olum thread, I mentioned a movie about a young man who became one of the 20th century's "greatest" con men. Some thoughts about con men have come to me, and I wish to share them.

First off, you have the person with no empathy, and thus no conscious.
These people will practice their techniques of deceit for years, until they have perfected them. Often running the same con over and over, and that's why the history of these people is so important here at NAFPS.

Second, we should mention the minor prankster, whose prank gets away from him, and takes on a life of its own.

Third, we should mention the con man who will con for money or sex or drugs.

Fourth, we should mention the con man (or woman, I don't want to exclude the "fairer" sex, as they have their share as well) who will run different hoaxes multiple times. Pathological liars.

Fifth, you have those who can not differentiate between what they do and what has been done. This is a peculiar type of brain malfunction. Some would simply call it insanity, but then I suppose all of these behaviors are.

Sixth, you have the person who cons to carry out some noble cause. Sometimes these people even manage to deceive themselves.

Seventh, you have the kind of person who enjoys playing people for fools.
The more intelligent his victim, the greater his pleasure in his "accomplishment".

Bubo, I note that you spent a lot of time and effort on your database of "tablets".

We spend a lot of time and effort on our database of frauds.

Thanks for your help.




 

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 01:40:51 pm »
Okay so you have all those types of cons.

Still, I read in "Ancient American Magazine" that the black colored concretions were proved to be from local sources by Scott Wolter.  So, we can be certain that the stones were manufactured locally.

Now where in there does it include a description of the specific scenario of the Burrows Cave?
The story of discovery: A man was hiking, fell into a rock trap-door entrance, and finds a tomb. A tomb that contains thousands of concretions with faces carved on them. All of the stones are unique, and include ancient languages.  Do con-men take the time to hike? They would not be making money while hiking? Do con-men take the time to study ancient languages? They wouldnt be making any money. Unfortunately, con men would be better off in Auto sales or at a nursing home.
 
On a recent visit to the Seneca and Iroquois National Museum, there was a display that stated concretions represent the heads of their ancestors. Coincidence? Supporting evidence?

And What about the Votive Axes found in Burrows Cave? They are an extremely rare form. Were the examples from Burrows Cave ever compared with other Votive Axes?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 03:47:19 am by BuboAhab »

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2009, 08:32:56 pm »
So then in your opinion Mr. Burrows and his associates should be immediately arrested for violation of NAGPRA, and thrown into jail.

That's a good plan, I like it. Let's take them at their word, and see how fast they change it when behind bars.
 
The problem is that we need to find an insane archaeologist to declare the "tablets" legitimate artifacts, as no sane one seems willing to do it.

Perhaps you may be of help here as well.


BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 01:50:43 am »
According to what I have read, Mr. Burrows and "his associates" reported the find to archaeologists, who did not express interest.

Why are you making obvious implications about sanity?  Is there any hard evidence? Hear-say and name calling are not evidence.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 04:25:43 pm »
Why are you making obvious implications about sanity?  Is there any hard evidence? Hear-say and name calling are not evidence.

Either NAGPRA kicks in, and Mr Burrows and his associates go to jail,
or they are manufacturing fake NDN history.

You're arguing for the first option.



Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2009, 11:00:16 pm »
Hi Bubo -

It appears M'si Manitou has heard our prayers: the archaeologist we need to jail Mr Burrows and his associates under NAGPRA has arrived right here at NAFPS:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2221.0

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

BuboAhab

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 03:15:07 am »
I must have missed your point. Where in that link does it mention the subject of this forum? And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.

Offline E.P. Grondine

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Re: Burrows Cave
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 10:25:12 pm »
And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.

Bubo, where did I do that?