Hi and maybe a little info.....

[rhiannon02]

I joined this group to show my outrage at the narrow-mindedness of some of the posts that I read.  However, after reading more I thought that maybe those with more knowledge could explain if a "non-native" has a chance EVER to partake in ceremonies - even when invited, as I've read many say that's not good enough either.

First, let me tell you a little about myself.  I am a mutt.  I have no idea who I am besides German, English, Irish and native - but the nation we only have stories to go on which say Shawnee.  I live in Indiana, which I read that OK shawnee have issue with IN shawnee tribe that seemed to be trying to reclaim a heritage in our own land.  I vaguely remember someone mentioning another tribe also, but Shawnee is the predominant one.  We cannot trace our ancestry because after four generations for me, there is no record on my papaw's side.  My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood; however, our history is lost.  On top of blood and stories from family, my aunt had a Cherokee man come to the bar that she was working at and he asked her what tribe she was.  She told of the story of being Shawnee.  He rubbed her nose bone and said, yes that's a Shawnee nose.  I sat at a bar when I was of age and got called out by an obnoxious man hollaring, "Hey, injun."  This went on and on that night.

From my understanding of most the posts that I read on this site, I would not be welcome to ever do anything in a ceremony as I am not native.  In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul.  My questions and information that I would like is how does a non-native or non-card carrying person - who doesn't live near or in the areas of the reservations - make it in the world of trying to learn their heritage and gain respect when many's minds and hearts are already closed as they only see an outsider.  I would like to learn to become a dancer or something to participate in ceremonies, but reading here gives the impression that this is out for me and/or my daughter.

[Defend the Sacred]

Wow. OK... all of these questions are already answered on the main page of the website, as well as in the various threads about People of Distant Indian Ancestry and For those with recently-discovered Indian ancestry.

If you are not part of a living, real, in-person Native community, it's not your religion and you have no "right" to any ceremonies or dances. If you think you are Shawnee, it's up to a living community of actual Shawnee people to say whether you are or are not part of their community (not up to some stranger you meet in a bar). And it's up to the legitimate ceremonial people of that Nation to say whether or not they would welcome you at any ceremonies.

... I am not native. In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul.

... Do you have any idea how insulting that is to the Native people here?

How on Earth would you even know what a "native soul" is?

[tachia]

heya kathryn .. lol .. you sure you do not want to rub her nose bone to find out for SURE if she is ndn?????

[Defend the Sacred]

Heh, no thanks. I don't go to bars. Though I guess I could ask why she's using a Welsh name  ;)

[tachia]

oh, you can only rub nose bones in bars! .. well that leaves me out too then .. .. .. lol .. yeah i noticed the name too ..

[Defend the Sacred]

It's from that other Stevie Nicks song, "Blame it on my native soul..." 

[frederica]

Beats the shovel teeth theory

[wolfhawaii]

Rhiannon, you have some valid questions that merit answers, but I think the attitude is the biggest obstacle to reconnecting. My recommendation is to spend about 6 months reading through this site and see if your perspective changes.
PS Tachia and Kathryn, I have shovel teeth and some Welsh ancestry, can you give me a Welsh name and teach me to talk to trees? Oh, wait, I already do that.... ;D

[tachia]

WH ... rubbing someones nose bone is weird enough, i am not rubbing shovel teeth .. no way! .. eewww .. .. .. lol
btw, valid questions? .. which ones? .. maybe i did not see them .. i am still trying to get past basing ones proof of being ndn on some bar room nose bone rubbing and a drunk yelling "hey injun" .. that and the oft used crap of picking a tribe, any tribe, that happens to have once inhabited, or still does, the state the wannabe was born and raised in .. coupled with the token "auntie" that tried to prove she was ndn so she could get a grant for college .. geeesh ..

my suggestion to this poor creature would be that she try this BS with her supposed german, irish or english supposed relatives and see how far she gets .. can some drunk in a bar tell if a person is german, irish or english by rubbing their nose bone? .. does it make someone german, irish or english when some drunk in a bar yells hey: "kraut", "mick" or "wanker" to them? .. maybe this poor besotted creature does not even know that "injun" IS a racial slur, and that similar racial slurs for other peoples even exist? (ps, sorry for using examples, just making a point, no offense intended to germans, english or irish!!!!) ..

her post is so ignorant, rude, disrespectful and downright silly that i see nothing valid in it .. ..

[wolfhawaii]

Well i am always giving people the benefit of the doubt....maybe that is why my shovel teeth are always being kicked in :-\ I guess the valid question was whether it was possible for people of some possible Indian ancestry to reconnect with their ancestral people.....my answer is provisionally yes, but the right attitude goes a long way and the wrong attitude will make them send you away :o

[rhiannon02]

Gah - where to start?  Thanks for the ummm, welcome?
I didn't realize I showed any disrespect, I guess by pointing out that just having native blood doesn't mean the person cares about tradition or teaching or respect.  Ummm, the nose thing was just being honest, my aunt was a bartender in a suave restaurant.  This guy always came in and chat with her after his job.  I have no idea of its origin - just the story.  Having no record of ancestral name or anything else before my great great grandfather has always aggrevated me and led down dead end paths every time that we seek.  I have found where DNA tests are available now but these still cannot show tribal lineage the last that I checked - merely whether or not one has native blood.  Well, whoop it tee doo, I made it that far on my own was my thinking for this as it is so expensive.  I apologize for ummm, whatever I need apologizing for I guess - as I see little here that needs apologizing for.  If I come off as abrasive, that's me - only saying what needs said, no flowery language aside from that - and in the internet reality intentions aren't put forth with the print so take it as you will, as I have taken the comments that I have read in most the threads that I've read to date in the same fashion - thus my first sentence.  You see, regardless of heritage or background - I have always been taught if I don't like or approve of something to let it lie.  Live and let live and walk away with respect.  Name calling and condescension go nowhere.  The name?  We're bickering about a username, for real?  I have been invited to a few things on occassion, but was hoping to find out more from groups of my own background or just take these a little further in the future perhaps.  Looks like I barked up the wrong tree.

As far as some of these other things, I must leave them lie as disrespect has no place to be turned back with more of the same.

[Laurel]

"My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood"

You don't see your aunt's attempt to get a scholarship obviously not intended for her as disrespectful?  You don't suppose that money could have been better used to, say, put a Native kid in a Native culture through med school so s/he could help his/er people?  It isn't cheating?

It also seems disrespectful of you to waltz in, declare your outrage, and ask for the secret password to Native ceremonies because you'd like to dance in them even though you live nowhere near any Native nations.  I mean, I'd like some crackers.  I'm nowhere near the Vatican, but could you tell me if there's a chance of my EVER becoming Catholic so I can get that dude in the big hat to come visit me and lay one of those wafers on my tongue?

Some things can't be taught long-distance.  Many things, when "taught" ripped free of their cultural context, become perverse, prostituted parodies of themselves.  This isn't something someone thought up to deny you of something.  It just is.

[LittleOldMan]

Rhiannon:  Where to start?  Forgive me if I am wrong, but the way that you write suggests that you are young and female.  It is an admirable fact that you as do others want to know more about your ancestors.  I would suggest that you research all of your lines.  Start with your European first know all that you can find out.  With your Native American lines go by the areas that your family resided in.  Yes, due to removal and passing this may be lost if so there is nothing that can be done about it in this life.  Do some self examination.  Try to discover why you may feel a need to identify with being Native American.  Be very truthful with yourself.  As far as ceremony is concerned It is up to the Tribe whether or not you can participate and all tribes have their own criteria as to this.  Go to some of the Native communities listen and learn their tradition emphasis on listen.  Being quiet and showing respect goes a long way in being accepted.  Do work freely for the Elders and the people.  This shows that you are serious and not just a Wannabe.  Read here and on other forums all you can about the way Native Americans who were raised in their culture feel about things.  Remember that for those of us that were raised in a white culture no matter what our Blood Quantum to reconnect is a very difficult but not necessarily an impossible task.  I have been working toward this goal for over two decades and among some I am accepted even though my skin is so white that I blister under a 100 watt light bulb.  Remember that the history of the interaction between the Native American and the european does not foster immediate trust.  This must grow with time spent with them and personal commitment on your part.  Welcome to the journey it will take a life time..   I am with respect and honor to all "LittleOldMan"  

[Superdog]

I joined this group to show my outrage at the narrow-mindedness of some of the posts that I read.  However, after reading more I thought that maybe those with more knowledge could explain if a "non-native" has a chance EVER to partake in ceremonies - even when invited, as I've read many say that's not good enough either.

First, let me tell you a little about myself.  I am a mutt.  I have no idea who I am besides German, English, Irish and native - but the nation we only have stories to go on which say Shawnee.  I live in Indiana, which I read that OK shawnee have issue with IN shawnee tribe that seemed to be trying to reclaim a heritage in our own land.  I vaguely remember someone mentioning another tribe also, but Shawnee is the predominant one.  We cannot trace our ancestry because after four generations for me, there is no record on my papaw's side.  My aunt went and traced as far as she could at the time to try and get a grant for college for native blood; however, our history is lost.  On top of blood and stories from family, my aunt had a Cherokee man come to the bar that she was working at and he asked her what tribe she was.  She told of the story of being Shawnee.  He rubbed her nose bone and said, yes that's a Shawnee nose.  I sat at a bar when I was of age and got called out by an obnoxious man hollaring, "Hey, injun."  This went on and on that night.

From my understanding of most the posts that I read on this site, I would not be welcome to ever do anything in a ceremony as I am not native.  In my life, I have met more native souls who were of 100% white blood and 100% natives who had nothing of a native soul.  My questions and information that I would like is how does a non-native or non-card carrying person - who doesn't live near or in the areas of the reservations - make it in the world of trying to learn their heritage and gain respect when many's minds and hearts are already closed as they only see an outsider.  I would like to learn to become a dancer or something to participate in ceremonies, but reading here gives the impression that this is out for me and/or my daughter.

Hi Rhiannon

I think you're biggest issue isn't necessarily with anyone here, but with yourself.  You're trying to find yourself.  In one breath you exasperate about how you perceive people thinking that a "non-Native" would never be able to participate in any ceremonies.  In the next breath you're talking about your native ancestry.

I don't doubt you're in a difficult place, but first let me say non-Indians participate in tribal events and ceremonies all the time.  This happens because of active involvement in some capacity with a family who is part of a Native community or active involvement with the community themselves.  Many tribes consider their ways sacred and to mess with them means bringing danger or other harmful forces around, so there's an element of trust that MUST be built before you are invited to be part of that community and participate in their spirituality.  There is no prosthelytizing as in Christian religions....it's just not that open.  If you think about it in the historical sense...accepting someone from outside as part of the community means another mouth to feed and other considerations.  It's not taken lightly. 

You would be coming into your ways as a child.  When I say that I mean you're starting from scratch...just like kids do.  Growing up in your life you've obviously not had your entire family group around you to teach you how to be...teach you your language...teach you how you take a role and contribute to your family group or community.  So you're an adult who would be starting from a clean slate and has a LOT to learn.  Just to be real with you....it could be YEARS (maybe as much as 15...who knows, can't predict that) before a community accepts you enough to teach you their ways.  That's years of active involvement with them....being one of them.  So ask yourself....are you ready to commit to that....are you ready to give up the things you've been taught from the family you DO know??  Those are very real considerations. 

Being Native isn't being part of a cool club and taking advantage of government programs....let me just tell you...those programs are underfunded and smeared in bureaucracy so the actual monies intended to help communities in the end don't go there.  This leaves many Native communities in poor...occasionally third world conditions...for those poorest communities, the ONLY thing that keeps them afloat are the people there that still hold on to their spiritual ways.   Sometimes those people are hard to find as well, but it's their sacrifice that keeps the community from folding completely.  Dancing at pow-wows is a very very small part of the whole equation...not to mention the Shawnee people don't traditionally participate in pow-wow dancing.  Those ways come from other tribes and to learn those ways you'll have to participate in a community that follows that path as well.  Pow-wow dancers from outside those communities (if they do it right) are brought into the pow-wow circle in full view of the entire community under the guidance of a family that have taken them in.  That family usually dresses them and speaks for them so that everyone recognizes that they are a dancer.  It's not just buying an outfit and jumping out and dancing. 

I'm gonna agree with you Rhiannon that Native blood isn't a qualification for all things Native.  You're right that there are full blood Indians who could care less about their community and run away from their identity.  They have their reasons....and sometimes it's not pretty, but when you hear their whole story...sometimes you can understand.  We're all just human beings and we all make mistakes.  But for those people, their soul is still 100% Native.  That's why they struggle....they try to run away from their true selfs....so as far as judging who's soul is Native and who's isn't...I really gotta wonder where you've learned you're able to do that.  That line seems more like a justification based out of insecurity....it's the exact thing someone says when they're trying to bring a person down to what they perceive to be their own level. 

So maybe a little self-inspection is needed on your part.  Why are you struggling?  Why do you expect immediate gratification for something you want?  Why do you do you see yourself down below others and attempt to shoot them down to your level with  judgments?

If you answer all those questions for yourself you may see how your motivations have led you away from being part of a community and only led you to being a part of a community of yourself.  From your own words I've only read very selfish reasons for taking part in "ceremonies" (and even there...what are you trying take part in specifically).  I haven't read what you would do for your community if you were able to pin down what tribe you're from and began interaction with them.  Community involvement and communal spirituality are not about the self....they're about the good of everyone involved.  It's also a commitment that you have to make for life.  If your'e gonna be identified as part of your tribe then you have be that way 100% of the time.  The people in that community don't get a choice, but you do have a choice...so the only way you bond there is to make only 1 choice...that's to be part of them.  It isn't easy.  Indian communities are full of their own brands of problems and you would have to 100% be willing to take the bad with the good.

After doing all that and showing all that you may find the acceptance that you're looking for.  Anything else is a shortcut (i.e. paying for ceremonies, joining fake tribes, etc) and shortcuts leave you immediately gratified, but empty inside.  It's kind of like the saying about Chinese food....you'll be hungry very shortly later.  So to take the shortcuts means you're gonna be on this search forever....

Don't sell yourself short Rhiannon.  If this is what you really want then do the work and you'll find it.

Superdog

[bullhead]

Hello Rhiannon and welcome.
I would like to start with the simple fact that your first post is offensive.your secound post wasn`t much better.
here in northern Indiana over in Fort wayne there is the # 2 Library IN the COUNTRY for Geneology,there are many Tribal rolls, access to census,birth,death,military,Info,land plat Maps,do your own research there are employees there that can help you ok, help yourself,don`t expect others to do it for you.
Becarefull of the Dna Tests they are not a 100 percent accurate{ FALSE POSITIVES -FALSE NEGETIVES }i am not an expert here .example = if you have a group of native and non native people and they get the DNA TESTING done there is a chance a non-native will show up as having native DNA and there is a chance a native will show up as non-native.AND if you have the DNA test I would suggest that you don`t go around claiming to be native because you had the test,you will more than likely catch hell again.all this stuff about teeth,hair ,nose`s,eyes doesn`t make you native.little old man gave you some good advice.