Author Topic: What makes an NDN an NDN?  (Read 45209 times)

Offline redhawk45

  • Posts: 28
What makes an NDN an NDN?
« on: July 17, 2008, 05:40:27 pm »
After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all.  They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular.  I'm just very curious on what all of you think.

Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?  Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?  Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).

Also, it brings me to the next question:  Who all on here are Federally Recognized?  State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?  Who are just plain 'white men'?  (note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?  Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.  As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.  It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

Which here's the follow up question:  Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?  For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition.  The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat).  If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.

I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized.  Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here.  I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage.  But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes.  I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer.  They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland.  If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up.  So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.

Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.  If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.  For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.

I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them.  It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.

Eric

Offline Superdog

  • Posts: 444
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2008, 03:28:11 pm »
After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all.  They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular.  I'm just very curious on what all of you think.

Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?  Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?  Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).

Also, it brings me to the next question:  Who all on here are Federally Recognized?  State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?  Who are just plain 'white men'?  (note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?  Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.  As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.  It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

Which here's the follow up question:  Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?  For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition.  The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat).  If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.

I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized.  Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here.  I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage.  But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes.  I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer.  They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland.  If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up.  So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.

Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.  If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.  For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.

I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them.  It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.

Eric

Wrong forum Eric, but I'll try and tell you what I think on this subject.  You seem to be focused on the governmental definitions of Indians.  The more you learn about these definitions the more you'll learn that State Recognition is absolutely worthless.  States come up with their own criteria for why they recognized an entity.  On your group...the Allegheny Lenape, I've found no reference anywhere to them being state recognized.  The only state recognized group I've found in Ohio is the URB of Shawnee.  Pope Hawk would like people to believe that the tribe he's created is the exact same as any federally recognized tribe.  What the URB is defined as in their state recognition, they are "descendants" of the Shawnee that existed in Ohio, but there's never been a governmentally recognized Shawnee tribe in Ohio.  Just individuals identified and confirmed as Shawnee and the URB are individuals (not all of them because of their dubious membership) who descend from these people.  That's the true nature of State Recognition for Pope Hawk's group.

He's very detailed and has a lot of references in letters and other things about the URB saved in files, but the existing Shawnee bands do not consider Pope Hawk as a leader and do not recognize the URB as a tribal entity.  In short....they are not a tribe.  If you look further into their legal existence you'll see this is in reality a non-profit organization who uses the words "nation" and "tribe" to define itself...nothing more.  Pope Hawk himself is a character who's been on many people's watch list for a long time.  The URB has been a revolving door of membership for a long time....some of the former members completely unhappy with members being asked to participate in ceremonies in the nude and other questionable practices.  Pope Hawk also tends to stretch the truth.  One of his latest claims is that the URB has never been given any grant money.  A simple google search will turn up $60,000 donated to them in grant money in 2003. 

Well enough rambling.

Forget governmental definitions.  For me, being Indian starts with community and culture.  Our language still exists and the language is the blueprint of anything I see as Indian.  To speak the language means to think like the members of your community.  Everything else falls from there.

I don't live in my community these days, but I'm tied to that land and the people.  I'll always consider it home and I want to be buried there.  I'm not descended from people that were Indian....I'm part of them....I don't shop for membership with tribes....I've never had a choice.  Many people wanna glorify the existence of Indian people in this country, but the reality is...it's a tough existence.  I'm treated like a foreigner in my own country.  When I meet non-Indian people and they discover where I'm from they will tend to look at me and treat me like I grew up on a deserted island with a soccer ball for a pet.  But no matter what the treatment is like....no matter how bad it can get....that's who I am and so I spend my life searching on ways to make things better for my community. 

I think you really need to stop trying to find loopholes for a government definition of the Allegheny Lenape as a tribe.  Your focus should be on your community.  It should be on learning your language.  It shouldn't be on trying to prove to anybody that you're Indian....you should just be Indian.  I think you still have a lot to learn.  I know several Lenape....they speak their language...they come from their communities.  There's a cultural link between them and my tribe, but you exhibit none of the attributes I've learned to attribute to Lenape people.  Your regalia is seriously flawed in that regard.  Research the Lenape a little bit and you may learn some things.  Learn the Gluskabe stories, learn your language.  If you spend your life yelling to the world "I'm Indian", but you live your life as a non-Indian....you'll see that this is easily seen through.

Superdog

Offline redhawk45

  • Posts: 28
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 09:37:48 pm »
I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.

It irritates me that I cannot wear something like feathers that are sacred to me, nor be able to get that bit of extra grants for college to help me graduate faster.

You are so true, State Recognition is pretty much a glorified way of holding a tribe together, or help the state with their tourism.  But many non-recognized people (those who can prove their geneology and DNA together and have it match, like my mother and I) look towards State or Federal Recognition - and the latter I know we'll never get in because our ancestors never made it west to the reservations.

As to my regalia, I know...that was worse than one previously.  Currently I'm working on a better looking regalia:  a floral beaded vest, apron (and biker shorts to wear underneath), buckskin leggings and soon will buy puckered toe moccasins to make.  Trust me, I'd never wear that wolfhide of mine in this 90 degree heat!  lol.  But, I'm pretty much doing research.  Going to get a traditional bustle and roach for Men's Northern Traditional dancing next year at powwow, along with a breastplate (even though as far as I know the Lenape never wore breastplates like what we see).  I'm still unclear, though, on what is traditional for an eastern woodland headdress, for Shawnee or Lenape (remember, i'm a mixture of Alaskan Athabaskan, Shawnee and Cree - and adopted by the Lenape).  If you have some links to pictures and/or how to make them, please let me know.  Oh, most of my regalia is cloth (green apron and vest), the only thing leather would be my leggings.

Getting back to the task at hand...I have tried to learn Lenape (a hard language to learn), learn customs and religion (this latter is REALLY hard, since there isn't any elders I know living around here but my own mother, and she wouldn't know), and I've got skills for traditional crafts - especially beadwork.  Beading my vest in a floral pattern was something new to me, but it worked wonders.

Thank you for posting...you're the only one out of 58 people who seen my post and cared enough to answer.

Eric

After reading so many posts upon this site, I have so many questions to ask each and every one of you all.  They're unbiased, meaning I'm not bashing any one person in particular.  I'm just very curious on what all of you think.

Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?  Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?  Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).

Also, it brings me to the next question:  Who all on here are Federally Recognized?  State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?  Who are just plain 'white men'?  (note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?  Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.  As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.  It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

Which here's the follow up question:  Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?  For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition.  The Shawnee URB didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat).  If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.

I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized.  Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here.  I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage.  But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes.  I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer.  They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland.  If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up.  So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition.

Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.  If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.  For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.

I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them.  It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.

Eric

Wrong forum Eric, but I'll try and tell you what I think on this subject.  You seem to be focused on the governmental definitions of Indians.  The more you learn about these definitions the more you'll learn that State Recognition is absolutely worthless.  States come up with their own criteria for why they recognized an entity.  On your group...the Allegheny Lenape, I've found no reference anywhere to them being state recognized.  The only state recognized group I've found in Ohio is the URB of Shawnee.  Pope Hawk would like people to believe that the tribe he's created is the exact same as any federally recognized tribe.  What the URB is defined as in their state recognition, they are "descendants" of the Shawnee that existed in Ohio, but there's never been a governmentally recognized Shawnee tribe in Ohio.  Just individuals identified and confirmed as Shawnee and the URB are individuals (not all of them because of their dubious membership) who descend from these people.  That's the true nature of State Recognition for Pope Hawk's group.

He's very detailed and has a lot of references in letters and other things about the URB saved in files, but the existing Shawnee bands do not consider Pope Hawk as a leader and do not recognize the URB as a tribal entity.  In short....they are not a tribe.  If you look further into their legal existence you'll see this is in reality a non-profit organization who uses the words "nation" and "tribe" to define itself...nothing more.  Pope Hawk himself is a character who's been on many people's watch list for a long time.  The URB has been a revolving door of membership for a long time....some of the former members completely unhappy with members being asked to participate in ceremonies in the nude and other questionable practices.  Pope Hawk also tends to stretch the truth.  One of his latest claims is that the URB has never been given any grant money.  A simple google search will turn up $60,000 donated to them in grant money in 2003. 

Well enough rambling.

Forget governmental definitions.  For me, being Indian starts with community and culture.  Our language still exists and the language is the blueprint of anything I see as Indian.  To speak the language means to think like the members of your community.  Everything else falls from there.

I don't live in my community these days, but I'm tied to that land and the people.  I'll always consider it home and I want to be buried there.  I'm not descended from people that were Indian....I'm part of them....I don't shop for membership with tribes....I've never had a choice.  Many people wanna glorify the existence of Indian people in this country, but the reality is...it's a tough existence.  I'm treated like a foreigner in my own country.  When I meet non-Indian people and they discover where I'm from they will tend to look at me and treat me like I grew up on a deserted island with a soccer ball for a pet.  But no matter what the treatment is like....no matter how bad it can get....that's who I am and so I spend my life searching on ways to make things better for my community. 

I think you really need to stop trying to find loopholes for a government definition of the Allegheny Lenape as a tribe.  Your focus should be on your community.  It should be on learning your language.  It shouldn't be on trying to prove to anybody that you're Indian....you should just be Indian.  I think you still have a lot to learn.  I know several Lenape....they speak their language...they come from their communities.  There's a cultural link between them and my tribe, but you exhibit none of the attributes I've learned to attribute to Lenape people.  Your regalia is seriously flawed in that regard.  Research the Lenape a little bit and you may learn some things.  Learn the Gluskabe stories, learn your language.  If you spend your life yelling to the world "I'm Indian", but you live your life as a non-Indian....you'll see that this is easily seen through.

Superdog

Offline educatedindian

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 09:38:07 pm »

1. Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes, how can you tell which one is legitiment or not?  Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real?  Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member (even I don't believe in charging a fee).

2. Also, it brings me to the next question:  Who all on here are Federally Recognized?  State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?  Who are just plain 'white men'?  (note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

3. If you're unrecognized, how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?  Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing.  As to State Recognized tribes, unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them.  It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

4. Which here's the follow up question:  Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership?.....

5. Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized.  If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few.....

Eric

I hope you don't mind, but I added numbers to make it clearer what I was answering to.

1. I would say the standard is a pretty simple one. Vine Deloria defined being Indian as knowing who your relatives are. If the fed recognized tribes in turn recognize an unrecognized tribe or band, that should be the ultimate standard. If the fed recognized tribes don't recognize them, at best they are descandants, at worst frauds or even in a few cases cults or militias. (Do a search for the threads on the Pembinas if you doubt me.)   

2. I don't think anyone has ever done a survey or gone through all the profiles to see the numbers of enrolled vs non. I don't think any of us has ever felt that was important. If you read our Welcome message and Who We Are, we clearly say that BQ and enrollment doesn't matter to us.

I'd guess the number of whites in here is probably around 15-20%, made up mostly of people who came here to ask questions. But that's just my own guess.

3. I don't know of any "bashing" done in here by longtime NAFPS members. None. We ask questions, and we criticize. Sometimes people let off steam about the frustrations dealing with the worser frauds we encounter, such as Rachel Holzwarth.

But everything I've seen in here that I'd call a rant has come from our critics who came here.

4. I have no idea where you get this. First, those unrecognized (and even some state "recognized") groups rarely turn down anybody. Some do quite a bit of recruiting for marks/members.
And second, I don't know of anyone in here who fits this particular bizarre question you're asking.

5. There's certainly a lot of problems with the recognition process, though most of that is the fault of the BIA and to a lesser extent anti Indian groups near the tribes in question.

Some of the tribes who were cut off during Termination have been re-recognized, esp some of the California rancherias. Some have had to go through the process several times, like the Miami of Indiana.

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 07:56:09 am »
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:28:04 am by nighthawk »

Offline redhawk45

  • Posts: 28
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 05:36:27 pm »
Thank you Nighthawk.

That had to be the most honest, heart-felt answer so far.

I do feel for those Indigenous people up there in Canada.  I followed along when it came to the Haudenosaunee with their battle in Ontario, crossing my fingers that they would push the government away.  I even remember a few posts elsewhere on the net that was requesting all Indigenous people to help by coming up there.

Though my ancestry is distant for my Cree blood (very distant), I do consider the tribes up there relatives.  My mother even tried to reconnect up there with a band...but was redirected to the main govt. (the same you are talking about), and learned you had to be a Canadian citizen in order to be a member of a tribe in Canada.  Oh, you could be registered with Canada as being Indigenous, but you cannot be a true member of a band/tribe unless you became a Canadian citizen.  I don't know if that sounds backwards to you, but it does to me, especially if what you said is true about them creating tribal rolls.  If they keep doing things that way, allowing one thing such as being recognized in Canada as Indigenous, and then allowing a person to be a member of a tribe if you become a citizen of Canada...these rolls are going to be all messed up!

Thank you for your answer...that last two paragraphs actually makes sense, even though clans and tribes in my family disappeared in my great-great-grandfather's time when people decided to keep things quiet and the family bible out of reach from people (which we know the truth is in that bible)...until my mother done the geneology and DNA to bring that secret back out in the open again about being Indigenous (even though it still lacks clans and bands).  LOL...if I could storm my relatives house to get that family bible, I would.  That thing holds every single record about the family back beyond my grandfather; was going to be given to my mother at the time of her aunt's death, but was immediately taken by a cousin, then another cousin after that died.  The excuse: "it's somewhere in the attic packed away...I'm too tired to look for it..", etc.:P

Eric

This is a little bit off topic but I want to say that a lot of what is in here is helpful to me in understanding what may happen in the future in "Canada". It's estimated that something like 80 percent of Indigenous people here live off reserve, and many people are Non-status, much more than those who are Status. There aren't rolls here like there are in the USA and (obviously) nothing like termination has happened. Much of the land has never been ceded and is not under treaty other than "peace and friendship" treaties, though the government (a constitutional monarchy) has been behaving as if it were "theirs". That's why what's going on in Ontario with the Nogonquins is happening, they want a group of people to sign over the land to "Canada" and from what I've been able to learn so far (and there's millions of acres involved) those Nogonquins have also agreed that they will just go back to being "Canadians" once they get a cash settlement and sign away the land belonging to the Anishnabek and Haudenosaunee, in other words they are Indians with a time-lapse built in, a past-due date (I think three years) after which they will no longer be Indians.

Up until this year Indigenous people in Canada were not protected under Human Rights legislation (in the USA I think this would be civil rights, about equivalent) and barely considered to be persons. Even though Human Rights have now been extended to those on reserves, for some things there's still three years to go before they have the same recognised rights as everyone else in North America.

All that I read here, or a lot of it, seems to have to do with those who are enrolled or not-enrolled, or who descend from people who were enrolled, well "Canada" doesn't yet have any rolls per se, but it appears they are trying to get people to self-declare so they can compile the rolls, that's the stage it seems to be at up here, I am guessing they are about 100 years or so behind the USA in a lot of things, but trying to catch up fast. In 1924 (maybe 1923) the government "conferred" Canadian citizenship on the Indigenous people unilaterally, and established band councils and reserves. But it seems a lot of people did not go on reserves and do not consider themselves to be citizens. I've heard of people who don't have birth certificates because they were born in the bush.

So the issues are pretty different, I've had to do a lot of reading to catch up and try to understand what's going on, and what might happen. I'd say north of the 49th a lot of it is still a struggle for the land, and trying to get the government to respect the people (and stop pointing guns at them!) and honour the treaties.

There are wannabes here and there, but the problems are so many and benefits pretty much non-existent, so those are very few. Though that might change as the situation changes.

As to the question "what makes an NDN an NDN"? Well I don't like and won't use the term "Indian" to describe myself, I'm not alone in this. But for now the stage that "Canada" seems to be at is asking Indigenous people to declare who they are, they want to know so they can give us all numbers and then who knows... maybe repeat the US pattern of abuse (as I see it) including forcing people off their own land, onto "reservations" (not the same thing at all as "reserves")  and then terminating their communities? That's not a good thing, maybe it can be stopped before it even starts.

What makes an Indigenous person Indigenous? Well my people are matrilineal/matrifocal, so if you have an Indigenous mother (and thus a clan), you're Indigenous by birthright. I don't think there's one set answer, it depends on the people and the nation and even the community, their stories about themselves and where they are from, their cultural beliefs.


nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2008, 06:23:51 pm »
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:27:27 am by nighthawk »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 02:51:16 am »
Redhawk
There has already been lots of discussions on this so I am just posting some links to what has already been written  ...

The thread on Ward Churchill starting reply # 19

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1632.0;all

People Of Distant Indian Ancestry
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

questionable ndn idenities & tribes
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0
 
DNA tests 4 Ndn ancestry & some statistics

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0

There's also this article from the CNO ... Although this is about Cherokee
tribes the issues are probably similar for similar groups in simillar circumstances .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1011.0
 
I really disagree with the attitude of entitlement expressed below.

Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008,
Redhawk
Quote
I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.

If you are 15/16 of colonial descent why would you imagine you can just ignore the debts of the vast majority of you ancestors who arrived as colonists ? How is it that the debts of 15 out of 16 of your ancestors are outwieghed by what one of your 16 ancestors might be owed?

IMO if your small bit of Native blood entitles you to anything, all it would be is a bit of sensitivity which would motivate you stick up for the recognition and rights of existing communities of Native people.   

From what you have said about yourself you are not " a community of Native people " . If you are anything you would be a distant descendant who's Mom had an interest in learning about a small part of her heritage. And your Mom didn't even know enough to avoid getting involved with a mostly non native exploiter.

As Superdog says, you sound like you have a lot to learn and the only place you can learn this is in a Native community that had enough members to survive and maintain the culture.  While I agree recognition which comes from any group of mostly non native people - such as the federal government - is not a good point of reference  , federally recognized tribes are a good refference point , because they were strong enough in numbers to remain viable and retain their culture.   

In reply # 8 in the link below is an explaination why I think Native traditions need to be retained within th ontext provided by a strong and viable Native community.( see Reply #8 )

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=998.0

Nighthawk...

I want to say that I really appreciate what you contribute here. I find you intellegent, a good researcher, and even when people disagree with you , I have never seen you resort to personal attacks, which is something I really respect .

However , I think we probably disagree on how to define who is Ndn and who isn't. Hopefully this might be an opprotunity to explore our different values and assumptions and I really hope you won't be offended by what I am going to say.. .

I am noticing you mention your partner Simons descent from the Cote family quite often and that you believe this family and the family of his wife Ann Martin were Native .


http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168&start=10
Nighthawk
Quote
All people with that name in North America who've been here longer than a couple of centuries are related, and all are descendant of one Indigenous person named Jehan/Jean Cote' dit Coste'. If the date of his birth (1604) is correctly given within about a decade, he would be Mi'kmaq and probably from Anticosti Island (kidnapped or a survivor of the "clearance" of the Island which is known as Natigostec to the Mi'kmaq). His wife was Anne Martin/Matchonon, known to be Huron. Those two are the ancestors of pretty much all the Cote'/Cota/Coty/Cody.

Anyway there are about 50,000 to 100,000 of his living descendants on Turtle Island

http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008   Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People     

SimonRaven
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as one of those people, one of my ancestors was one of those kidnapped children,


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some of the traditions may have disappeared in some cases, but not all of them. some were indeed kept underground, and will be kept underground, until the genocide stops


Posted: Mon Jun 16,  Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People     
Nighthawk
Quote
More than one... people have all heard of the "Plains of Abraham", right?

Well the full name of the person that plain is named for is "Abraham Martin" in french.

According to the Jesuit Relations, the name Martin replaced the Huron name Matchonon: "On the 3rd of November of the same year [1635-36?], Father Charles l'Allemant baptized a young Savage about twenty-five years old, called by the people of his nation Matchonon, surnamed by the French, Martin; at baptism he received the name of Joseph." (Reference, the Jesuit Relations)

Simon is a descendant of Anne Martin/Matchonon who was the sister of Abraham, and Huron-Wyandot.


So ... I am seeing the Cote and Martin families repeatedly brought up as being Simon's Native lines and I have not seen any other Native ancestors mentioned. I also see Simon say's he's descended from ONE of these children he believes were taken and educated by missionaries and you say there was 2 of these children. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I get the impression from these various comments, that it is on the basis of one or two ancestors who lived back in the 1600's that your partner Simon claims to be Mi'kmaq .   Is this correct?

When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?

I guess I also have to say that in my only partially informed opinion , I think the genealogical information you have provided on these families is probaby incorrect .

I believe the links below give much more accurate information on the origins of this family;

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/the_french.html

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/quebec_realfirst.html

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/Kebec/anne_martin.html

I understand some of the conclusions in the links above are just guesses based on the available evidence, and what you are claiming is possible -
----------------------
Edited to add the Y DNA results showing 3 French Canadians descended from Cote have European patrilineal DNA. Assuming these people descend from Jean Cote - and Nighthawk has claimed he is the patrilineal ancestor of all or most Cotes in North America , this probably proves beyond all doubt that Jean Cote was a European.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on
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Cote    J2
Cote    J2                                                                           
Cote    J2

--------------------

Doing accurate research on a family from that long ago is a huge undertaking and I don't think this is the place to get into debating this particular genealogy , except to say there is some different opinions on what the existing records might mean, and you own opinion  seems to be quite different than the opinion of most mainstream genealogists ... It's certainly possible you are guessing right about this family being Mi'kmaq and Huron, and pretty much everyone else is guessing wrong that it is French , but I have to say some key points of what you are guessing about this family is based on evidence that doesn't appear to actually exist.

But if all that is being claimed is one or two native ancestors who lived back in the 1600's , assuming a substantial part of Simon's family has been in Quebec since 1621, like anyone who's family lived on this continent close to 400 years, he probably has a small percentage of Native descent from very distant indigenous ancestors.

In the link below is the mtDNA results of people with French Canadian ancestry ;

http://www.frenchdna.org/FCmtDNAResults.htm
   
As you can see about one in 20 of the people who paid to get tested has an indigenous mtDNA.
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Edited to correct bad math. I originally said 1/20 - below and then realized as mtDNA only represents matrilineal lines , the 1 in 20 mtDNA lines thas show a indigenous origin only represent 1/2 of the general populations heritage and Y DNA would represent the other 1/2 . So I changed this to 1/40
 


 How i would intepret this is that AT MOST the average French Canadian is about 1/40 of Native descent.
---------------------------------
It is probably substantially less than that though, as i suspect the people who pay to get tested are more often people who were adopted or who have some reason to think they are of Native descent . So probably people who pay to get an mtDNA test are more likely to have a native background than the averge person in the general population .

But even if the true general percentage of indigenous mtDNA in the average French Canadian population was much less - like only one in 100 - if you count back to the 1600's most people have about 4000 ancestors , so even if it was on average only one in 500 that would still work out be that an average person with only one parent who was French Canadian would have about 4 Native ancestors way way back there.

So debating complex historical and genealogical facts and whether or not Jean Cote was Mi'kmaq isn't really necesary to guess that Simon, like most French Canadians, almost certainly has at least one or two distant Native ancstors back there somewhere .

Which leads to the next question ;

Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?

Which leads to the next question.

Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples? 

And

If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?


« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 01:39:32 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline wolfhawaii

  • Posts: 295
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 06:35:21 am »
Maybe we should have a separate area on this board for genealogy and MomaPorcupine could check us all out....I know i don't have much time to research anymore since I have to pay the rent etc......great way to find those pesky furtive ancestors' existence on paper!

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 08:52:05 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:23:29 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 09:28:53 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:22:37 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 11:03:34 am »
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:21:50 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 12:39:51 pm »
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:20:49 am by nighthawk »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 687
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 01:12:36 pm »
When I pointed out some of what has been said about Simons background in relation to his claims that he is Mi'kmaq I wasn't trying to make any personal comment about Simon , I was simply showing my sources and explaining what made me wonder how you define who is Ndn. I do this in pretty much every topic so people can see what I am refering to . I wasn't trying to get personal.

Me
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When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?

So as I understand it Simon is claiming to be Mi'kmaq on the basis of many more ancestors  , than just Jean Cote and Ann Martin. That was all I was wondering. 

Me
Quote
Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?

So apparently you believe if people have any Native blood at all and proclaim themself Native people and can get enough of their relatives to do the same , they can claim to be a Native community , and in your opinion they are whatever they claim. 

Me
Quote
Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples? 


So if I am understanding you correctly you are saying yes to this as well , and you think that the French canadain people should be considered to be metis because many of them are people of very distant descent and they already are a distinct society .

Me
Quote
If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?

So , you are sayng thats someone who is 1/1024 should be considered to be an NDn , if a comunity of people who are on average between 1/250 - 1/4000 get together and say they are ?

We don't agree on this ...

Nighthawk
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If you are going to copy my licensed work for anything other than your own personal use, I'd appreciate if you'd ask me first in future and obtain my permission. You also could have addressed a lot of this over there, for that matter, since it was published there and not here. Almost none of it has to do with the topic here ("What makes an NDN an NDN") or even the forum ("New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans") I don't think.

i'm sorry i had no idea what that licence meant ... I wouldn't use your genealogy for anything - i've already said i don't think it is correct.

I just try to quote people and provide a concrete reference to what I am talking about, as I would think it would help people not to feel their words were being distorted or misrepresented . It is posted on another public message board , so I can't see how that would violate your privacy or the ownership of your work and i did provide links and attribute it to you.   

We do disagree on how to define who is an NDn - and I strongly disagree, but I feel it's best if we  stay with the issue .

nighthawk

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Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 02:14:55 pm »
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:20:05 am by nighthawk »